PDA

View Full Version : character on horse in unit of infantry? WTF!



sainthale1988
07-11-2007, 14:52
hi,
a mate of mine has started to put caracters on mounts into units of infantry so it up US and AS of his caracter.
now i think that it;
A) looks kinda silly
B) is a bit beardy if its allowed...... is it?

however i am guilty of putting one of my caracters (infantry base) inside units of minators or trolls (leadership reasons). is this also a bit out of order?

any clarifacation would be great so Cheers in advance!

carl
07-11-2007, 14:54
both are perfectly legal AFAIK, hoever because of the size diffrance the characters are not subject to Look Out Sir, and unless they changed somthing from 6th to 7th ed you can pick the character out from the unit and target him with any and all ranged attacks, (magic or otherwise).

But wait till somone else comes in to back me up or knock me down, i don't belive it's changed from 6th, but i quit fantsy when they released 7th ed and so don't have a rulebook to check from

Buckero0
07-11-2007, 14:57
it is perfectly legal (and smart) to place a character on a horse (and it makes sense historically) and no, you can not pick the character out of the unit as long as the unit is more than 5 models strong.

carl
07-11-2007, 14:58
They've changd it then.

Fair enough.

sainthale1988
07-11-2007, 15:23
it just looks so...... untidy :eyebrows:
also on a similar note
i know putting a caracter on horse back in a unit of fast cavalry means they don't get free reform (the big heavy knight chap slowing them down somewhat) but if i have a von carstein vampire with wolf form, who is tecnically still on foot with movement 9 can a put him in a unit of dire wolves and still do canine acrobatics? if so i'm so getting a thrall with 1+ armour and a great weapon..... into flank SUPRISE! :eek:

T10
07-11-2007, 15:42
You know pretty strange stuff.

A character in a Fast Cavalry unit does not gain the model-specific benefits: i.e.: No improved arc-of-sight for shooting and no march-and-fire. He does not cancel out any of the unit-wide benefits - it is still a unit of Fast Cavalry.

I see no problem with putting your Thrall into that Dire wolf unit, regardless of whether he is on foot or mounted.

-T10

Jonke
07-11-2007, 17:06
A mounted character that joins a unit of fast cavalry benefits from the movement rules but not the shooting rules. I'm not sure if it's the correct way to read it but my impression is a non-mounted character may not join a fast cavalry unit at all.

As long as the character is not unit strength 5 or more he may not be targetted with shooting and beneftis from look out sir!

Atrahasis
07-11-2007, 17:07
If a character on foot joins a unit of fast cavalry then that unit will lose its ability to reform freely:

"Mounted character models may join fast cavalry units and move in the same manner as the unit..."

EDIT:


I'm not sure if it's the correct way to read it but my impression is a non-mounted character may not join a fast cavalry unit at all.

A character may join any unit unless forbidden. The fast cavalry rules do not forbid models on foot from joining them, but they do apply other restrictions.

Kadrium
07-11-2007, 18:17
you can not pick the character out of the unit as long as the unit is more than 5 models strong.

Unless the character has a US above 5, such as Skrag the Slaughterer. He's US 6 and may be picked out by shooting, even if he's joined a unit that would normally protect another character.

sulla
07-11-2007, 18:26
But wait till somone else comes in to back me up or knock me down, i don't belive it's changed from 6th, but i quit fantsy when they released 7th ed and so don't have a rulebook to check from

:D Seems a funny place to post opinion (a rules forum) if you don't have, and haven't read the current rules... :angel:

carl
07-11-2007, 19:52
I did read the changes list when it came out though. It was GW's total failure to address any of 6th ed's real issues, and in effect just give us edition 6.1 that led to me quiting. I.e. I quit after finding out what they changed and deciding 7th ed was, "made of fail".

The change to the character targeting rules wasn't part of that list, thus I assumed it was unchanged, but added that littile cavet "just in case".

Atrahasis
07-11-2007, 22:38
If you've quit playing Warhammer and yet you're hanging out on a Warhammer Rules Forum, perhaps you should reassess how you spend your free time.

RavenBloodwind
07-11-2007, 23:16
carl-bashing aside...putting characters on horses in infantry units work well and is 'legal'. As mentioned above it prevents them from being picked out by shooting as long as the unit they're in meets minimum size (5 models) and they do not have too high a US (5).

The key tactical advantage to this isn't really the bodyguard issue the infantry provide so much as the high mobility gained by the character. A character on horse can march quite a distance to provide some benefit elsewhere in the lines. Moving your BSB or your general to within 12" of the heavy fighting is very useful. Moving a wizard from one location to another, both in units, allows you to get within range of some important spell while avoiding being out there on his own to get shot to bits.

sainthale1988
08-11-2007, 09:34
right let me get this straight (as two of you have put contradicting statments) if you put a mounted caracter WITHOUT fast cavalry status (I.e. everyone except one lizardman Dogs of War special caracter) in a unit of fast cavalry the unit cant freely reform (must act normaly).
but my point is that my vampire thrall idea isn't mounted, he is on foot, thus follows the rules for individal models on foot (360 sight etc) so does he too slow a fast cavalry unit down to normal? (if not no big problem but it could turn a good combo into a better one)

DeathlessDraich
08-11-2007, 09:41
A wolf form thrall with Dire wolves - seems very apt.

A unit has to move at the speed of its slowest model - speed not distance moved. - rules for mixed units and pg 76.

Atrahasis
08-11-2007, 10:02
right let me get this straight (as two of you have put contradicting statments) if you put a mounted caracter WITHOUT fast cavalry status (I.e. everyone except one lizardman Dogs of War special caracter) in a unit of fast cavalry the unit cant freely reform (must act normaly).

No. A mounted model can join a fast cavalry unit and will move in the same manner as the unit, ie free reforms are still allowed.


but my point is that my vampire thrall idea isn't mounted, he is on foot, thus follows the rules for individal models on foot (360 sight etc)As soon as he jopins a unit, he is no longer an individual model on foot, and so no longer follows those rules.

As he is not mounted, the fast cavalry unit loses its ability to freely reform.

TheDarkDaff
08-11-2007, 11:57
Let me break this down for you.
1 - Any character can join a fast Cav Unit unless they are on a flying mount or either they are unbreakable and the unit isn't or vice versa. (pg73)
2 - A mounted character that joins a Fast Cav unit will benefit from the Fast Cav movement rules but not the shooting rules. (pg70)
3 - There is no mention what happens when a character on foot that joins a fast cav unit. This means that the unit must move at the slowest members pace using the normal rules for movement (though the Fast Cav models still retain their shooting abilities IMO) as the character on foot does not gain the fast cav movement abilities at all.

Hope that clears that up a bit. Now all you need to be careful of is frenzy which can make your nice fast mounted hero charge out of the unit by himself (this is a great use of a particular Slaaneshi spell).

sainthale1988
08-11-2007, 12:55
cheers that helps (btw the vamp moves at the same rate as the wolves both m9 so no complication there)

Atrahasis
08-11-2007, 12:59
The complication is that the wolves can no longer reform for free - they operate as a normal unit.

If they had missile weapons they would still have a 360 fire arc, but as they don't they're essentially very flimsy cavalry with no real benefit.

sainthale1988
08-11-2007, 13:06
i know it has no tactical benefits per say, but it does look good, and also the last thing that an opponent will expect is for the 'doom wolf' model to be replaced with a grinning vampire! pscological he will massivelly underrate the performance and threat of the unit till it too late

Atrahasis
08-11-2007, 13:08
Ah, that would be cheating.

The vampire must still be WYSIWYG, and swapping out a doomwolf for a vamp certainly isn't within that rule.

sainthale1988
08-11-2007, 13:35
he is WYSISYG! when he is moving he's a wolf, when he's fighting in combat he swaps for a foot caracter
now if i had a unit of spirit hosts that were just bases claiming they were etherial and thus invisible now that would be cheating

T10
08-11-2007, 13:35
Indeed. Giving the vampire the Wolf Form power does not mean you use a different model for him. It would be interesting if it did, but it doesn't so it isn't.

-T10

smileyface
09-11-2007, 03:29
i know it has no tactical benefits per say, but it does look good, and also the last thing that an opponent will expect is for the 'doom wolf' model to be replaced with a grinning vampire! pscological he will massivelly underrate the performance and threat of the unit till it too late

You are entirely at liberty to use a doom wolf model for your vampire - as long as:

1) there isn't any confusion regarding what it is
2) it's on the correct size base for a Vampire.

Which put together with the part where you deploy characters seperately from units means there is no point in time at which your opponent should fail to know that it's a vampire, unless he is particularly forgetful.

Alathir
09-11-2007, 03:39
There is nothing beardy or morally foul about it. When my Bretonnian character's knight unit gets shot down around him, he jumps inside the nearest unit of Men at Arms with all haste. Personally, I think it looks kinda cool as well.

TheDarkDaff
09-11-2007, 03:43
I played a game against a Mortal Khorne Army that tried this and put his Mounted Lord in a unit of Marauders to give them a bit of oomph in CC while getting cheap ranks for his 1+ save combat monster. He wasn't happy when i told him his Character had to charge out of the unit by himself to sit right in front of 2 bolt throwers.

RavenBloodwind
09-11-2007, 04:03
Indeed. Giving the vampire the Wolf Form power does not mean you use a different model for him. It would be interesting if it did, but it doesn't so it isn't.

-T10

Remember the Norse army from 3rd ed? (was published in WD 87 if memory serves). Anyway, they had werewolf characters and you were expected to have models for both human and wolf forms. Kind of like the old pink and blue horrors. Helped GW sell a few miniatures but made stiking a cav base in the middle of a ranked up block of 20mm bases a bit of a hassle.

carl
09-11-2007, 11:49
Yes, but the Doom Wolf is on a Cav base, as smileyface has allready pointed out, WYSIWYG requires the Vampire to be on the correct base size. Unless he's mounted a cav base is the wrong base size unfortunatly so it's not legal.

That dosen't mean people will stop you doing it, I think it would look cool, and while I don't play fantasy anymore, if I did and you came to the table with it i'd have no problem.

You just have to remember it's not strictly 100% legal so some people will refuse to accept it and most tournies won't have it eithier.

sainthale1988
09-11-2007, 18:02
granted, and i wouldn't try anything contentious like that at a torny.

txamil
10-11-2007, 21:56
So if a bull centaur led wolfriding hobgoblins? Are they still fast calvary moving at 8?