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View Full Version : Help me beat New High Elves with Beastmen!



SkawtheFalconer
07-11-2007, 22:00
Hi all,

On wednesday, I have a game against the new High Elves coming up. I volunteered my beastmen because I genuinely believe my Wood Elves would beat them fairly comfortably (its a shooty army), and I didn't want my friend's first time out to be a game like that. Plus, I'm challenging myself, as I think Beastmen will have a really tough time against them.

Any and all advice as to what I take and how I use it in order to beat the New High Elves would be very much appreciated and welcomed!

fenrisnorth
07-11-2007, 22:37
Impact hits, overwhelm them, AMBUSH FTW, seriously, high elves are very tiny in number, swarming them will be your best defense, also, all the strike first in world can't save you from failed terror checks

RavenBloodwind
07-11-2007, 22:45
I think fenrisnorth is onto it.

Chariots should be highly effective as they have nothing to pop them (unless he takes a dragon).

Your skirmishing units should have a fair chance of getting off some advantageous flank charges which will ultimately be the key to success.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
07-11-2007, 22:48
thats true the always strikes first can and will be nullified by chariots and such. Take monsters... I dont know much about beastmen but i do know that anything with toughness 5 will be able to stand up to 16 always strikes first spearmen attacks. If you can try to out manoever him. I play high elves and know how essential it is that I pick which fights i want to be involved in. By making aggressive and seemingly complicated movements you can make him react to you. (might be intense if it is his first game!):) Even with always strikes first high elves will be a difficult army for noobs to play with in my opinion. If you are able to survive the initial elven onslaught you will slaughter any of his units in combat. That is assuming he is not using swordmasters.... Anyways after looking at the beastmen reference sheet I see a lot of toughness four. that means that spearmen will not do a whole lot to your units. (depending on your armour saves) To sum it up every elf you kill means a lot more than every big beast of yours he kills. Take chariots and crunch all the speedy asuryan or take something big in hopes of cutting his rank and file troops into mincemeat. If you can avoid his best unit(s). If you can divide and conquer you cant lose. Good luck! (although i am secretly hoping for the coneheads!) :)

sainthale1988
08-11-2007, 08:47
which god do you follow?
if nurgle, minators with great weapons and chariots are a must
if tzeentch then magic missle him to death + chariots + extra powerdice marks on chariots
if korne CHARGE!!! (in the flank) + chariots
oooh and if you have the model then take a giant ogre shaggoth lord with mark of slannesh and great weapon (always strike first with 6 sgt 7 attacks, cause terror + no chance cannon ball to the face) + chariots

did i mention chariots would be good? ;)

Axis
08-11-2007, 10:49
I would suggest the same way you would've beaten them under the old army book. I don't really think the new book changes much, especially not for beasts. Go for the flanks and rear, there aren't going to be many of them anyway so getting to the sides shouldn't be too much of a problem. I mean beasts do have a lot of skirmishers. Elves also generally suck against monsters and beasts can get a lot of those. Beastmen have a pretty easy time against elves.

As already mentioned chariots are good but i don't see they are any better than against any other army.

EDIT: Probably a good idea to take some stuff that causes either fear or terror. Which beastmen have in abundance.

sainthale1988
08-11-2007, 11:50
Beastmen have a pretty easy time against elves.

As already mentioned chariots are good but i don't see they are any better than against any other army.


.

are you nuts!!!! elves are a real pain in the **** for beasts! acurate shooting (so being a skermisher dosn't help much) strong magic, possiblely good armour HIGH LEADERSHIP so they don't get scared easily, fast and relativly manouveriable.

in case you been hiding under a rock for the last mounth the reason chariots are soooo much better against high elves is that impact hits comes before normal hits (which they now ALWAYS go first with) thus you can kill the elves before they kill you before you try and kill them

neo_ebrick
08-11-2007, 13:49
as a high elf player i would recomend ambush as many units as possible, for bolt throwers and mages usually hid toward the back. Also watch out for DP's they can break almost any thing they charge now. if he knows your playing beasts hill probley take loads of SM's so chariots for them. o by the way did i mention chariots? Yes i would have to say chariots.

sulla
08-11-2007, 17:37
Chariots, multi-wound creatures(it's much harder to kill the whole front rank), magic missiles for those swordmasters, screamers and/or furies to hunt war machines and keep mages in their units... these are just a few of my favourite things:D. Also a couple of ambushing units. You are going to have to use a lot of misdirection and movement and probably sacrifice a few units in order to take the super cc units out of the game.

Also, don't forget that you have access to the full chaos armoury. Perhaps a few knights of chaos or a mortal on a chariot have heard of your enemy and joined your warband for their own purposes...

Axis
09-11-2007, 01:03
are you nuts!!!! elves are a real pain in the **** for beasts! acurate shooting (so being a skermisher dosn't help much) strong magic, possiblely good armour HIGH LEADERSHIP so they don't get scared easily, fast and relativly manouveriable.

in case you been hiding under a rock for the last mounth the reason chariots are soooo much better against high elves is that impact hits comes before normal hits (which they now ALWAYS go first with) thus you can kill the elves before they kill you before you try and kill them

About your chariots line. That was my point. Chariots are the same new elves old elves or against any other race.

Its not that big a deal them going first, maybe play some real games against them? Always strike first is good on a character but most other things its pretty average. Sure swordmasters or some of the elite infantry will be annoying but beasts are mostly skirmishers so you can pick your fights. So if you go against the elite infantry dont go 1v1 go 2v1 and dont touch the front. You negate their ranks is pretty much gg.

Beast herds pretty much own shooty elves and are pretty awsome vs close combat elves since they wont get in combat. Only exception is to be careful with unruly rolls so be careful where you place the herds. You are going to outnumber them pretty easily so use that to your advantage.

therisnosaurus
09-11-2007, 01:14
agree with everything here, good choices will be

-characters with ASF (helm of many eyes and stuff)

-lots of magic and magic missiles

- dragon ogres or trolls, both good for taking elite units

-ambush units to hit archers and spearmen, stay away from any of the elite units, even with rear charges.

-oh, yeah, chariots, duh...

Defender of Ulthuan
09-11-2007, 01:37
Being both a chaos and a high elf player, I'd have to reinforce the chariot idea. Beast chariots are cheap enough (85?) for your D6+1 S5 impact hits on the low toughness/low armor elves. My only change to all the advice given is to forget offensive magic. The new Drain spell is a major cutback on anything you try to take, and all his mages will have it. Take some scroll caddies, lots o' chariots, and ambushing beastmen galore.
(P.S.- if he has any archers or spearmen, a spawn (pref.=slannesh for movement bonus) can hold a unit of those for the entire game)

colhodg
09-11-2007, 11:16
Don't see how taking loads of ambushing units is a good idea - you need to be sure they will turn up where you need them (by having high LD or a reroll) not on a useless table edge where you don't. Essentially you need a character with mark of undivided in the ambushing unit to guarentee it's useful. The character can't be the general and any shaman off table don't generate dispell dice...doesn't leave you much to ambush with.

Skirmish and t4 should be enough for your main force to weather shooting. Agreed multiwound models may help cos they won't lose front rank. Considered taking shields on the Gors? 5+ save in combat might be better than the attacks if you hit last.
You should easily outnumber so getting onto the flanks shouldn't be a problem - Centigors v good for this and easily the best light cav in the game.

Capt_Ithuriel
09-11-2007, 16:57
I think fenrisnorth is onto it.

Chariots should be highly effective as they have nothing to pop them (unless he takes a dragon).

Your skirmishing units should have a fair chance of getting off some advantageous flank charges which will ultimately be the key to success.

don't forget a hero/lord with the Star Lance. HE cav still have a 16" charge range.

-J

neo_ebrick
09-11-2007, 18:09
the lance with a noble is str 7 so its a good chariot killer. so watch it. not that i think about it one good ambush unit should do the trick for war machines.

sulla
10-11-2007, 01:32
The new Drain spell is a major cutback on anything you try to take, and all his mages will have it. Take some scroll caddies, lots o' chariots, and ambushing beastmen galore.


If the HE player is casting drain magic, you will do pretty well out of it. It also makes his magic harder and more risky to cast and his magic will inevitable be painful to you... so by all means take a couple of bray's forcing him to use high magic and neutering both players magic phases.

neo_ebrick
10-11-2007, 06:54
If the HE player is casting drain magic, you will do pretty well out of it. It also makes his magic harder and more risky to cast and his magic will inevitable be painful to you... so by all means take a couple of bray's forcing him to use high magic and neutering both players magic phases.

i thought the new drain magic ended at the begging of the casters turn its not a rip spell is it? even if it was he could vontarly end it at the beging of his turn and cast it at the end of his turn.

sulla
11-11-2007, 06:35
i thought the new drain magic ended at the begging of the casters turn its not a rip spell is it? even if it was he could vontarly end it at the beging of his turn and cast it at the end of his turn.

Sure it goes from casting time till the start of his following turn, but he either has to cast it last in his own turn or else it makes all his own spell cast after it harder to cast, so it's pretty much telegraphed in most cases unless he surprises you by casting it early in the turn. So, if it's really important to stop it, just save some dice or a scroll for it. If he's blasting you with magic missiles instead, you can wear some of them anyway (like d6's vs big herds or immune to psyche units).

logan054
11-11-2007, 11:35
I think key to beating HE is one of a few things

1) taking chariots and sending these against units like SM
2) large units of beastmen, sure you have no armour but T4 and WS4 will save you many times
3) models like Spawn, Giants, anything T5 is also going to be a major boost against them, simple fact is that striking first is all well and good but when you need a 6+ wound its pretty uses, Spawn can still units into position and weaken them, giants, well just hope for jump and down or even yell and brawl.

feintstar
11-11-2007, 21:57
Even a small number of ambushers would make a difference - especially warhounds with the extra movement - if they rock up in the wrong place, move to a better place. The wolf hunts would obviously be handy. Remember his magic is still more expensive than yours, so you can still beat him in the magic phase. If you can squeeze for a staff of change, do it.

The thing is, elves will almost always win a straight front vs front fight vs enemy elite (or less than elite) infantry or even cavalry. The trick is to flank him, by using his amazingly low numbers against him. For a HE player to have 15 swordmaster attacks to the front, he also has to have only 2 swords on the flank. So if you can field 2 units for one of his...

Kerill
12-11-2007, 06:53
Use ASF items. Take an exalted champion with helm of many eyes/whip of pleasure/enchanted shield and ward leading a unit of 8 chaos hounds in snaking formation, almost guaranteed to be able to beat 14/21 swordmasters or white lions and cheaper as well.

4/5 Dragon ogres with additional hand weapons will make a mess out of anything. Personally I think going tzeentch and magicing him to death is a good option (although they can take the 75 point item to deny you one magic phase).

Slaanesh daemon prince/exalted could be very useful too (stick it with some daemons to protect from shooting though. Slaanesh shaggoth is not worthwhile since at I4 elves will all strike before it anyway.

Chariots (obviously).

Lex
12-11-2007, 12:49
Couple of things. I see the recommendation that you take lots of ambushing skirmishers. You would definitely have to be careful there since you have to worry about unruly and may just charge the front anyway. Another thing, most HE players are running 2 deep or 3 deep infantry so even if you do get to the flanks you will still have difficulty as with your larger base size you will only form up your minimum 4 wide so you won't have any ranks either. You'll just have the +1 Flank bonus which could be problematic when facing things like swordmasters.

SkawtheFalconer
12-11-2007, 13:04
Don't you always rank up five wide anyway with Beastmen?

Also, if a High Elf is going five wide, there should be space for a beast to go five wide as well (including corners). If it was a group of smaller based skirmishers (like huntsmen or something) they'd be able to get 7 in.

The only issue I see my beasts having would be drawing other units into combat if they're tightly bunched.

Unruly shouldn't be too big a deal either, as I intend to ambush all my herds - although you don't have to tell me about the problems it can cause! :P

Lex
12-11-2007, 14:01
Normally skirmishers only go as many models as can be in B2B counting corners. The Beast rules allowed for a minimum of 4 models to avoid the skirmishing rules being exploited on the main units. It was set at 4 since this was the minimum for a rank under 6th ed rules but now 5 models are needed for a rank and the rule about 4 models hasn't changed. As far as the elves going 5 wide i was talking about the general consensus that you need to flank the elves and head on at 5 wide against the elven specials will get you waxed. Basically, I'm saying your skirmishing herds will have a hard time against the most common formation of elves (7x2,6x3,7x3) cuz either you get ranks hitting the front but will face some very bad attacks before you can attack or you hit the side and get no ranks.

SkawtheFalconer
12-11-2007, 16:30
Ah, I see what you mean. Good point. And I have absolutely no intention of attacking the Elven special units - as other posters have noted, chariots probably the best way of dealing with them, or, my personal favourite, leaving well alone! :P I intend to roll up his shooty and spearmen stuff with my herds, or maybe combine charges with things coming from the front. We shall see. I'll try and post an army list when I've finished tinkering with it.

Makaber
12-11-2007, 16:38
I'd support the already mentioned Dragon Ogres, Trolls, and in particular, Chariots. Also, I would consider a couple of Spawns. Their Toughness 5 means they can stave off Strength 3 troops for a long, long time with a little luck.

sainthale1988
12-11-2007, 19:08
Normally skirmishers only go as many models as can be in B2B counting corners. The Beast rules allowed for a minimum of 4 models to avoid the skirmishing rules being exploited on the main units. It was set at 4 since this was the minimum for a rank under 6th ed rules but now 5 models are needed for a rank and the rule about 4 models hasn't changed. .

i rang up gamesdevelopment about 2 mounths ago and they said that they would do an updated FAQ for beasts of chaos upping the minimum models to 5 (so we get our rank bonus back) most people i play are happy to take my word for this after a quick explination that i seam to have to give about raider rules before the game anyway, however no coverage in tornies etc

MarcoPollo
13-11-2007, 05:10
Chariots will do the trick, but if you are going more with herds, you can still beat them the old fashioned way.

With the price of high elves creating better numbers for you, you should be getting flank and rear charges. So, a full size unit of high elves really costs alot. And they don't get to use their spears in ranks for flank charges. But, you don't have to commit a full unit to the front and one to the flanks. If you can get something hitty on the flanks, and a lone characters (charge out of a unit), then you are limiting the effect of ASF as flanks will be low in numbers and fronts will only have 3 models attacking a character.

It should be able to break what you need. And then start running the flanks.

CHOOBER SNIPES
14-11-2007, 02:11
key is to send things that will survive the striking first. Dont charge head on with a bunch of ungors, numbers dont matter unless u r attacking from at least 2 sides. HE spears will slaughter anything that isnt T4+ or good armor save. Avoid SM's, but if u hav to attack with chariots or if u can flank. Hope to god he doesnt turtle, cus he has the magic defense and the combaty defense to fight u off if u dont get flanks or u dont hav any T5 to take on non elites. This will result in frontal charges that will probably decimate your ranks, especially from elites. if he ever is out of position tackle the unit with as much as u can bring to bear, as he will hav very few units. A block of 20 HE spears with full command costs lik 205 pts. so any block destroyed will be a major blow to his army.
Also remember no HE infantry has a better save than 5+ in CC (unless HW&S) so S5 hits are almost guarenteed kills (2+ to kill) just dont underestimate their fragility b/c things lik SM's wont leave much to attack back (WS6 S5 2A ASF) (champ is lik a W1 hero lol) anyway dont b too intimidated by ASF but also dont underestimate it. Overall, put units that wont be massacred by the mass of ASF spear attacks up against his blocks, and chariots against elites or just avoid elites if u can, then gang them later.

Holy Crap! Manticores!
14-11-2007, 12:53
oooh and if you have the model then take a giant ogre shaggoth lord with mark of slannesh and great weapon (always strike first with 6 sgt 7 attacks, cause terror + no chance cannon ball to the face)
uhh... not neccesarily. Since both units strike first, the tie-breaker is I, and HE have higher I. Still, a Shaggoth with lgt armor (3+ AS) will give s3 Asur scum problems every time.

Axis
14-11-2007, 21:17
Also 2 hand weapons will do the more damage vs elves than great weapon. Unless he takes dragon(s)

SkawtheFalconer
15-11-2007, 10:36
Whew - I won to a minor - just, it was very hard going. Thanks for advice everyone.

I took four ambushing herds, including one containing BSB with beast banner and wargor with great weapon, 4 units of hounds, three chariots, 2 Drag units (three in each), Furies, Screamers, Centigors.

I won't recap the whole thing, but the herds were heroes for me. My opponent turtled to an extent, and had two big units of spearmen, one lead by Eltharion, the other by Korhil (yowza!). When I ambushed, he wasn't expecting me to have that many herds, so I was able to surround Korhil's spearmen unit. Due to a balls up on my part (I had aimed to get something able to charge the unit [like a chariot] from the front by this point, but made a mess out of it) he was able to turn his unit to face the threat, but I still got a herd to the side, and the big one with characters in the front. That helped, as it reduced the amount of attacks coming to the front, and he woofed most of them, which helped even more. I killed Korhil (who is only T3, 2W, 4+Save) and a wizard, and then I woofed the rest of my attacks and killed about one spear elf. I won that combat by about three, and ran them down. My other herds took out a bolt thrower and a unit of archers. I actually played very badly though, and ended up getting a lot of units trapped in a central killing ground. And when I did manage to FINALLY get my one surviving chariot (on one wound) into his white lions (I'd killed 8 in various ways, only 7 remaining), I only did one impact hit. :P

There's some excellent advice in this thread though, so thanks to everyone who contributed.

My thoughts:

- ASF is going to take some getting used to. My Dragon ogres charged White Lions (who I thought were WS4 - won't make that mistake again!) and got minced. Similarly, even the archers my herd charged hurt because I wasn't wearing any armour and they struck first.
- Definitely get in the flanks if possible. NEVER go in the front. Be sneaky, devious, and downright cowardly to achieve this end.
- Shooty armies should beat the majority of High Elf armies. My Wood Elfs would probably have massacred this army.
- High Elf Elites are now just that. They're all revolting, although very expensive, and can be whittled down - if you can get them below half, which is doable, that's big time points.
- They're only T3 with very little armour. Just keep chanting that to yourself... ;)

sainthale1988
15-11-2007, 10:45
bat rep! bat rep! ...... plz