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Count Zero
08-11-2007, 08:14
a couple of quick questions:

can a monster (dragon/hydra) fire its breath weapon on the same turn that it rallies?
i know they can march and fire, and i know fast cav can rally and fire but we weren't sure on monsters.

if 2 monsters/riders are fighting in a lone challenge a and chariot charges in does it inflicit impact hits against the enemy monster?
i know the crew steeds wont attack.

Masque
08-11-2007, 14:38
A rallying unit automatically performs a reform maneuver. Units that reform may not shoot.

The chariot question is something I'd never considered before but I would allow the charging chariot to inflict its impact hits.

Atrahasis
08-11-2007, 14:52
Do monsters and other single models reform?

Count Zero
08-11-2007, 15:25
just to clarify:

in this instance a Duke on a Hypogriff charged my Highborn on Black Dragon and we ended up fitghing in a challenge (cant actauly remember which of us issued it). In my next turn i charged my CO chariot into the flank of the hypogrif.

Kadrium
08-11-2007, 15:52
I would allow it, I suppose. They aren't close combat attacks, so I don't see why they wouldn't apply.

T10
08-11-2007, 16:51
I agree. The models to not phase out of reality while fighting in a challenge. In my opinion they are subject to impact hits, they are subject to effects triggered by base-to-base contact, etc. All in all, it makes more sense that they can be affected by impact hits than that thy cannot.

-T10

DeathlessDraich
08-11-2007, 17:26
Good question Count zero. It has wider ramifications and raises 2 basic questions:

1) What constitutes an 'attack' in Warhammer?
2) Are impact hits attacks?

If your answer to (2) is yes, then the solution is *not* as stated by the others above.
i.e. if you regard impact hits as an attack, then there will be no impact hits against a lone character or a character on a Monster in a challenge, when the chariot charges into the lone character etc.

Kadrium
08-11-2007, 18:38
In my opinion, an attack requires a roll to hit, be it ballistic or melee. Impact hits require neither.

ewar
08-11-2007, 20:14
I was the bret player in question, and at the time we diced off on it. My reason is that impact hits, while they take place before all other attacks, count towards combat res - for all intents and purposes they are close combat attacks that auto hit. A challenge is a unique situation between two individuals without any outside influence until one combatant dies or flees.
I think Deathless is right when he questions the wider ramifications - would you allow ogre bull charge hits? What about a giants attacks? squig hoppers? There are plenty of unusual forms of close combat hits, which ones would you allow/disallow? I know it may not be logical - but then how much is in warhammer!? Its an abstraction of war. The purpose of a challenge is to fight a single combat between two powerful characters, personally I would find it a bit sneaky to ram one in the backside with a chariot and claim it as a victory in single combat! But then I am a bretonnian player and he was dark elves, so perhaps you could say it would be role playing!

Atrahasis
08-11-2007, 22:38
ewar, Challenges are not "between two individuals without any outside influence until one combatant dies or flees"

If the unit had been a 5x5 unit of dark elf spearmen (unlikely I know, but bear wirh me), then they would have certainly influenced combat through 3 ranks, standard, and outnumber (plus flank/rear as appropriate).

DeathlessDraich
09-11-2007, 08:10
In my opinion, an attack requires a roll to hit, be it ballistic or melee. Impact hits require neither.

Actually I expected most players to state that Impact hits are a form of attack.

Attacks:
A little more is needed I'm afraid but at least you've made an attempt unlike me - I raised a question which I'm reluctant to answer :p

Your definition excludes: automatic hits and characteristic tests which auto wounds. - intentional exclusion?

Count Zero
09-11-2007, 08:42
Ewar sorry to say i think your sig is a bit dated considering your new profession.

ewar
09-11-2007, 10:16
Atrahasis - what I meant was that no one is able to attack into the combat. Of course combat res comes from other sources. In that instance the chariot received +1 for flanking the hippogryph.

You didn't say what you thought the answer was yet?

Personally, I consider chariot impact hits attacks and using deathlesses definition, wouldn't allow it in a challenge.

To Count Zero - my sig may not apply any more, but dammit, I still love ghostbusters. Anyway, there aren't any funny ones for accountancy... can't imagine why.