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View Full Version : Empire Halbediers, Useless?



Luisjoey
09-11-2007, 00:34
Well i have a unit of halbediers, but i see them a little useless against enemies because they lack or good armor save and is only useful when charging to use the halberd +1.

Do you think that Spearmen and Swordmen (with shields) are fair better? One attack in two ranks and the other have save 4+ ???

There is any hope for halberdiers in combat? or just useless? please help me find out.

Remember they are the main state troops of the empire :D

Crazy Harborc
09-11-2007, 00:47
Yes, in the fluff halberdiers are high in the Empire's pecking order. I use spearman for most of my parent units. My detachments are normally swordsmen. From time to time, I use shooters as detachments....crossbows or handguns mostly.:D

der_lex
09-11-2007, 01:03
They make decent detachments, but that's about it. They're still the poorest parent unit choice, which is a shame when you consider the background.

Frostlord
09-11-2007, 01:41
Halbediers are, like spearmen, just not as good as swordsmen when used as a main block. Empire Infantry's job is to provide static CR and not to kill things. So swordsmen win by far in comparison, due to their WS 4 and 4+ armor save.

I don't play Empire but I would like to see other troups then swordsmen on the field too, but sadly it just isn't efficient.

Defender of Ulthuan
09-11-2007, 01:46
They seem to be a great choice for a rank-breaker detatchments (S4 helps against peskier enemies).

BenK
09-11-2007, 02:02
They're not as good as swordsmen, but they aren't _useless_. Massed average-stat 5pt infantry are inherently useful for static CR.

Luisjoey
09-11-2007, 02:25
What about letting Halbediers fighting in two ranks? Because usually they didnīt make with their poor stats and armor to fight back.

That would make them useful!

Briohmar
09-11-2007, 09:17
I'll weigh in on them being good for dets as well. Though for parents, yes spears and swords are better.

BenK
09-11-2007, 10:39
Luisjoey: I agree - make Halberds fight in two ranks with a +1 strength bonus for the first rank.

happy_doctor
09-11-2007, 10:54
I agree - make Halberds fight in two ranks with a +1 strength bonus for the first rank.

I'd find this a bit overpowering (it would be better than spears, if not for the loss of the shield)..

It has been suggested giving the Halberd the Armour Piercing rule; this would be historically correct (as halberds were indeed fatal to heavily armoured troops) and would most certainly give them a much-needed boost.

Until the next edition, though, halberdiers make really good detachments..

Alathir
09-11-2007, 11:44
Like many people said, i only find them worth it as detachment and am surprised GW didnt try anything to make them more appealing in the new book.

Kahadras
09-11-2007, 12:48
As detachments they're pretty good. Strength 4 on the countercharge is pretty sweet. Statisticaly they should get more kills than spearmen and swordsmen detachments. At the end of the day you want swordsmen in your parent units to take the charge without losing too many men and halbardiers in the flank to negate rank bonus and make a couple of kills back.

Kahadras

Tutore
09-11-2007, 13:06
They are great as detachment, using that s4 before being cutted down. Very bad independent unit tough.

Crazy Harborc
10-11-2007, 01:20
I did use them as parent units in a couple of early 6th Edition games. The first time they survived being shoot at as well as my other 5+ save units (gave them shields). In HtH against S3 troops they did ok. Against S4 they just died. Wanna buy some halberdiers?:D Almost as good as new AND hardly used.....Should have lots of 5+ rolls left in their dice.:angel:

Luisjoey
10-11-2007, 08:50
Today i used them and it went bad! I even stick a mortar shoot over them by accident XD


Luisjoey: I agree - make Halberds fight in two ranks with a +1 strength bonus for the first rank.

Thanks men! But now you said in that way i see a new problem, it delays a little the game because you need to see which ones of them are on the first rank and make their to wound with S4 and the second with S3. Still a good idea and very accurate!

I do agree with the armor piercing abilitiy, but is almost the same bonus given by strenght 4! But that wouldnīt be so broken... still need some playability to respond attacks with their low armor rate.

Crube
10-11-2007, 08:59
I love halberdiers, but agre they are underpowered given their role in the Empire.

I'm currently working on a heavily themed Middenheim army, so all my state troops are Halberdiers... I'll be letting the good people of Warseer know how badly I lose ;)

logan054
10-11-2007, 11:03
Personally i still find them a good detachment in empire armies, mine still perform ok in big blocks but sadly swordmasters really are the best block unit (still a warrior priest and halberdiers is pretty good!).

Luisjoey
10-11-2007, 15:52
They are even worse than militia... militia gets two attacks and is cheaper, if someone manages to live! would make two attacks!

Shank
11-11-2007, 01:16
No, militita and Halbediers are the same price.
I don't know. I like them. They work fine for me. 5 points for str 4 and light armor is not bad. I do use them as a parent unit. Almost all the time. I find the enemy tends to ignore this unit. Rarely does it get shot at.
Halbediers work best against low intiative armies like Dwarfs, Orcs, lizards where once in combat, they can do some damage.

Luisjoey
11-11-2007, 01:19
Maybe is that... i never go with low initiatives armies... could be very handy in those situations.

TzeentchForPresident
11-11-2007, 06:20
I'd find this a bit overpowering (it would be better than spears, if not for the loss of the shield)..

It has been suggested giving the Halberd the Armour Piercing rule; this would be historically correct (as halberds were indeed fatal to heavily armoured troops) and would most certainly give them a much-needed boost.

Until the next edition, though, halberdiers make really good detachments..

Considering they have human stats, at best 5+ save, the second rank uses S3 in that suggestion and they donīt strike first no matter what.
Err.. overpowered? :p

happy_doctor
11-11-2007, 10:34
Bear in mind that it should be something different, compared to spears, but not MORE powerful! Thus you have:
-Spears striking in multiple ranks
-Hand weapnos&shield bonus
-Halberds that give +1 to wielder's turn AND are armour piercing. (thus s4 and -2 armour save...the equivalent of a handgun!)
What's more, imagine 2 ranks of chosen chaos warriors of Khorne armed with afore-mentioned halberds: A bucket load of attacks at s5 plus another bucketload of attacks at s4!! (do you get the overpowered argument now?? ;) )


Cheers, Happy_doctor

soots
11-11-2007, 22:39
How bout 2nd rank only if person in first ranked has died? So therefore they pretty much always get an attack even if th enemy has killed some of them.

burad
12-11-2007, 20:29
Ever try to actually use a halberd?
Can't do it in two ranks. Doesn't work.

Luisjoey
12-11-2007, 23:31
Well always that i played iīm against the fast Elves!

They do well if they ever hit, first strike and high WS is hard to overcome.

Your only choice is to charge you first! there you could make some mess (but some)

They`re Cheap and are expendable as troops if you play that kind of strategy.

Rodman49
13-11-2007, 00:21
Here's a repost of how to fix Halberdiers from another thread in General Discussion, some of the talk about points reduction doesn't really apply here as that's what people were arguing in that thread:

By reducing the cost of a Halberdier you are still not making him a possible alternative to the Spear/Sword main infantry blocks. You will still only see Halberdiers as detachments. What many Empire players are complaining about is that "fluff-wise" the Halberdier should be a valid choice for big block parent units.

To do this you must (A) Have the Halberdier do something different the other choices and (B) Be of comparable cost but not necessarily "better" than the other choices.

Halberdiers should represent the most "killy" of the three choices while Spears are "jack-of-all-trades" and Swordsmen are "defensive." We can have a look at what each gets . . .

Spears:
- Fight in two ranks
- 5+ save (with shield)
- Against WS3, T3 (50% wound per frontage)
- Against WS3, T4 (33% wound per frontage)
- Against WS4, T4 (33% wound per frontage)

Swords:
- 4 WS (3+ to hit WS3 troops and cause WS4 to hit them on 4+)
- 4+ save
- Against WS3, T3 (33% wound per frontage)
- Against WS3, T4 (22% wound per frontage)
- Against WS3, T4 (17% wound per frontage)

Halberds:
- +1 Str
- 6+ save
- Against WS3, T3 (33% wound per frontage)
- Against WS3, T4 (25% wound per frontage)
- Against WS4, T4 (25% wound per frontage)

Notice that Spears are more killy than Halberds and have a better save! Only when T4 troops have a 4+ save are Halberdiers any better at killing than Spears and then only 0.16% better! Hence why the Halberd is only seen as a detachment and rarely at that (FC are actually better because they fight like spears (attack wise) and so are better against anything T4 or T3 with a 5+ or worse save).

Therefore Halberdiers need something to boost them up, not a points reduction.

You could:
(1) Make them WS4, would improve both survivability and kill power against WS3
(2) Make them Fight in two ranks like spears but with +1 Strength (keeps them from being an overpowered detachment but makes them a great unit to take charges and return casualties).
(3) Give them heavy armor (not fluffy, but good rules wise)
*All of these options should probably see them increase in cost by one point.
** Option 1 is the easiest, Option 2 requires a change in the Rulebook, and Option 3 goes against both fluff and the models. Having said that I'm still a fan of option 2.

Things that won't work (IE won't make them an alternative to Swords and Spears as parent units):
(1) Price Reduction - it will just make them cheaper detachments
(2) Armor Piercing - just makes them better detachments but not better parent units

mattieice
15-11-2007, 20:00
Skaven have a similar problem with clanrats versus stormvermin. clanrats with swords and shields being cheapest, spears 1 point more, and stormvermin costing 3 points more basic with heavy armor and a halberd and no shield. The benefit of the halberd just isn't there. losing the shield in combat drastically reduces their survivability. spearrats have the second rank to strike back with if the front rank dies, swordrats have a better armor save, and stormvermin with halberds die just as easily as spearrats without the benefit of striking in 2 ranks. It's almost better to give stormvermin shields and just use the hand weapon and shield bonus to give them 3+ armor save! halberds need a serious makeover.

Luisjoey
15-11-2007, 22:47
(1) Make them WS4, would improve both survivability and kill power against WS3
(2) Make them Fight in two ranks like spears but with +1 Strength (keeps them from being an overpowered detachment but makes them a great unit to take charges and return casualties).
(3) Give them heavy armor (not fluffy, but good rules wise)
*All of these options should probably see them increase in cost by one point.
** Option 1 is the easiest, Option 2 requires a change in the Rulebook, and Option 3 goes against both fluff and the models. Having said that I'm still a fan of option 2.

Things that won't work (IE won't make them an alternative to Swords and Spears as parent units):
(1) Price Reduction - it will just make them cheaper detachments
(2) Armor Piercing - just makes them better detachments but not better parent units

I do agree with option 2 or the option 1 could be very useful... halberds improve a little the weapon skill because you could keep your distance and to wield it you need to be a good warrior.

beezlebubbles
16-11-2007, 12:43
they are definitely worth taking due to their strength 4. Take a unit of 25+ and provided they get the charge they can take on units larger and better, even if severly depleted.

Fate
17-11-2007, 01:53
Hi all, i don't know how many of you are Empire players but i'll assume most of you are a least decent generals for the armies you play. Myself, i've been playing empire for 8 long years (and about quit empire after i murder Graham Mcneill). Thing is, no matter how you look at it, units on foot for combat suck big time. They are slow, they don't charge and rest asured, when they are charged they break, flee and are caught.
It's a waste of points to bring a unit into battle like that, (safe perhaps for the ironbreakers).
Before at the time i started playing, in the nice time i could have spearmen using a banner of griffon i had a unit of 20. Course they didn't last long, even with the banner bonus they just died horribly and soon i learned that such units are completly useless.

Course fielding an empire army which looks pretty with a bit of everything is nice, but i don't think people would do that if it meant to lose every single time they play, after all we like to win once in a while too.

Luisjoey
17-11-2007, 02:46
Well men there are lots of differents ways to play empire; you are high cavalry i do respect you i been playing like 1 year (collecting since 2002) and i donīt like empire cavalry... is good but i donīt like a expensive unit that could be wiped out with a Conflagration of doom or something... Empire is not bretonnia XD

I do play lots of unit on foot, really they suck in combat, really they move slow... but they are the core troop of the empire and they fight valiant their enemies... they are cheap and could stand back some enemies with good use.

My foot troops are cheap enough to allow me lots of cannon and mortars (yes i`m kinda of nuln player) and troops are very needed.

I want to try the guys in fast cavalry to see how they work.

Luisjoey
17-11-2007, 02:48
Halbediers should have save 5 from heavy armour... but that would make them very expensive

Fate
17-11-2007, 03:32
I don't belive you wipe out a cavalary that easly since they have a +1 save. I'm not all about cavalary and i've been a true nuln player before. I used to bring 4 mages, 3 handgunner units, 4 cannons, 2 hellblasters and a unit of scouts, then i'd say, come and get me if you can.

Once against orcs i didn't even got charged, i've had destroyed all but a units of goblins that survived at half strenght.

it's just that every time i see infantry in the table... Well they look pretty, but that's pretty much what they do, they die quick and hard. I don't know how you play there but where i play it's very competitive, not just about winning of course but competitive in the way as to make the best possible of our armies and employ the best tactics in battle, we like to consider ourselfs good generals and do our very best.
It's how we have fun here.

Luisjoey
17-11-2007, 03:38
Well nuln style of game makes me remember Napoleonic Wars (modern wars) but i think WH need a little more melee; The times i used cavalry (i only have a unit of 8) they were obilaterated easy with magic or fire many times, maybe iīm not good with chavalry XD

I`ll follow your advice to see how it works.

bassmasterliam
17-11-2007, 10:29
5pts for s4 is totally worth it if you have a big block of 30 or 40 of em.

Fate
17-11-2007, 11:34
Luisjoey, the cavalary are not to charge gunlines like that, and even if they do, they must charge at the secont turn and it must be units without ranks, also bear in mind that without a character inside an empire cavalary it's not even worth fielding it.

bassmasterliam, try having that block charged by chaos knights, then tell me a good block of 30 or 40 is worth it, because trust me, no one will charge it if they didn't knew they'd destroy it in the first turn.

Luisjoey
17-11-2007, 18:05
Yes Halbediers in big groups are even bad!

Yesterday i put a unit crossing a bridge with spearmen behind (bad tactic i know) and i charged elves with spears... i did 6 attacks... they back me 14 attacks back (the fight in 3 ranks ) they are very good with their weapon skill and well i took many loses while they lost just one.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y294/Cruz_purpura/Warhammer%20Fantasy/Imagen040.jpg

if you see this way halbediers are state troops, the core of the empire... why donīt they have their WS 4 to be a little more than peasants?

Leave spearmen WS 3 they still are better because defend well and fight in two ranks (they usually can respond at least 2 o 3 attacks in the worst cases)

Fate
18-11-2007, 09:11
The thing is, is warhammer, anything that does kill everything or makes it rout in the turn it charges, it's not worth the points. I've been there, i've tested in any way possible, there is simply no chance at all blocks of units will do any good. Who uses them usually loses, not only for having units that wont do anything but will die horribly and give the points to the opponent, but also because those points could actually have been spent on something much more useful.

BTW, you should see a roster i posted for a 2k empire, you'll see how i usually play.

CHOOBER SNIPES
19-11-2007, 00:59
solving the problem of halbadiers (regardless of how bad u think all infantry is) would be a rule lik "wall of steel", Empire Halberdiers are trained to use their massed weapons to fend off superior foes; +1 to armor save. 5+ save, good rule, fluffy too. they shouldnt be WS4, cus elves and dwarves, and bretonnian knights are WS4. 5 pt. state troops are not lik elves dwarves and knights. even knights errant are WS3, and they arent peasants, WS 2 is peasants...literally

BTW luisjoey, those are men at arms for Bretonnia, not Empire, or are u just using men at arms models?

Luisjoey
19-11-2007, 03:03
BTW luisjoey, those are men at arms for Bretonnia, not Empire, or are u just using men at arms models?

Those are Breton-empire Spearmen!

Are men, have spears, have light armour, have shield! Works XD