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Reinnon
10-09-2005, 16:11
hi there

well, as some of you might know i've started a warhammer force, a tzeentch deamon legion.

however, my success with them has had very mixed results, more often or not i got slaughtered by my brothers high elf force.

for reference, heres my list:

Lords

“Aneuao”: Tyrant of Preslav (Lord of Change)

Total: 665

Core

Boundless Nightmare (10 Horrors): Acolyte (Champion)

Total: 199

Boundless Nightmare (10 Horrors): Acolyte (Champion)

Total: 199

Boundless Nightmare (10 Horrors): Acolyte (Champion)

Total: 199

Special

Heralds of Change (3 Changebringers)

Total: 210

Heralds of Change (3 Changebringers)

Total: 210

Rare

Changing Tempest (Chariot of Tzeentch)

Total: 140

Changing Tempest (Chariot of Tzeentch)

Total: 140

now, when i posted it (and when i came up with the army idea) it got labelled as a " standard flying circus" and ergo cheesy.

now, even i must be really quite crap with this force but i'm really struggling to win games with it, here are the problems i've noticed:

1) lack of power against cav. A common complaint with most forces but i've yet to come up with a realible method of taking down heavy cav, my changebringers flaming attacks can bearly touch them and they still havce standards and musicians, my next point.

2) lack of power against ranked up units. I took the LoC for power against them to denile ranks on flank charges but i still get beaten down by out numbering and standard + musicians, making close combat a fairly painful experience as i need to charge in both a unit of changebringers and a Loc/chariot

3) magic: although i have 9 power dice, i'm splitting it in between 8 spells, not too magic heavy.

4) horrors: these guys just won't work at unit size 10, and i can't seem to get enough flyers in the army for a flying circus to be truly viable if i don't take units of 10.

therefore, i'm thinking of chaning tactics and changing army idea, and going for a slightly more horror/flamer based force with a few heralds mixed in to the army to create a hybrib, as flying circus just doesn't seem to work.

so, i'm thinking of having a deamon prince, 3 semi large units of horrors, a couple of heralds and 2 units of flamers. and maybe a few changebringers in the force, and making the force a king in the magic phase.

unless someone can tell me effective tactics for the flying circus and give me a real reason why its considered so powerful, i might start play testing the Horror Circus.

thanks in advance

Ganymede
10-09-2005, 16:47
The reason why a lot of people do not like the Tzeentch demonic legion is because it is a highly focused rock/paper/scissos army. It trashes some lists and it gets trashed by others. Unlike a lot of other, non SoC armies, this army trounces some lists, and gets trounced by other lists.

My advice would be to bite the bullet and allow your army to become a normal demon list and to incorporate mortal and beast units.

Vosk
10-09-2005, 17:29
Cavalry are easily dealt with by a Blade of the Ether. Try downgrading your Lord of Change to a Daemon Prince with the Blade, Soul Hunger and something else (Spell Breaker never hurts).

As far as combat goes - you really don't want to be in combat at all unless you are going to charge a unit with at least three of your own (one of these being your Lord in a flank).

Also, part of your problem I think is the Changebringers. While they look great on paper, I really can't stand the things. They aren't that great in combat, and tend to get chomped needlessly. That leaves them to do some shooting and march blocking. Their flames aren't going to kill anything except very basic infantry, and they aren't all that good at march blocking because of their lower movement. Changebringers try to do everything, and are good at nothing.

Therefore, I say drop all 6 of them. Use the left over points to bulk your Horrors up to 15 each (this gives them a good power level of 7 with their bound spell - forcing the opponent to use at least two dice to stop them). That size also means you get an extra rank, which occasionally helps them tarpit a unit for a turn. Then go for a lot of Screamers - these guys are far better than Changebringers. They are faster, smaller, more numerous, arguably just as good in combat when their numbers are considered (if not better) and can "shoot" with their Slashing attacks.


As far as magic goes - you are right, ironically enough the Tzeentch Daemon Legion is less magically adept than its mortal version. However, it excels at taking out enemy spellcasters like no other army in the game. Your opponent can't dispel your magic if he has no spellcasters left. For the first couple of turns it's best not to worry too much about dominating the Magic phase. Just survive until about turn 3, when you should have their casters and warmachines nicely dealt with, then suddenly yout magic comes into its own (getting off three good Horror Corruscation of Energy in one turn is beyond funny). You say you're splitting your dice between 8 spells also? I wouldn't bother casting with the Horror Champions unless there really is nothing that your Lord can do anymore - just treat them as a power familiar.

Trunks
10-09-2005, 18:14
In your standard "Flying Circus" Screamers are all over the place and change bringers are left at home.

I would honestly not even consider any heralds at all. All you need in a 2000 point army is one character to act as your general and that is it. Any other points you spend on heralds are inefficient and would have been better spent on horrors.

By going with more horrors and flamers you will have a more well rounded force that is less of a "rock-paper-scissors" army. That's why I play my Tzeentch Legion that way, it's alot funner to use as well (for both sides). The amount of magic dice I can throw out is crazy, but most of them are magic missile spells so it's not that bad.

Knights are going to be a weakness no matter what you take in this army. Sheer weight of fire and attacking with your general is what will take them down.

Aristone
10-09-2005, 20:07
You might also want to reconsider the list you are using. In my army I dont tend to take a lord of change, hes simply too expensive for his good, though I understand why you might like him. A problem I find with your actual list is that its too one-sided. Sure, changebringers are good, but at their cost they bring the armies effectiveness down. My suggestiongs to this list is: Dont take the Lord of Change, take something that can take down knights with ease and still be tzeentchy, so you take a Level 4 Demon Prince, unmarked, with demonic splendour, soul hunger, blade of the ether, and casting fire (You have no idea how powerful this guy would be with that flaming sword spell). 110 points less than a lord of change, and able to kill knights better than bloodthirsters.
(Empire knights)
This Guy: 5*2/3*5/6 + 5*1/3*2/3*5/6= appx 3.7 dead knights (same kills for all tough 3 models, any armor saves)
This guy with flaming sword of Rhuin: 6*5/6*5/6+6*1/6*5/6= 5.0 dead knights
Bloodthirster: 8*2/3*4/6*2/3 (5+ save for knights)+8*2/3*1/6 (killing blow)=3.26 dead knights
Now, against basic brettonian knights, the bloodthirster kills 0.15 more knights, and against infantry it kills 4.444 (.7 more)

Dont be fooled by the lower toughness though, this guy has a better save.
(Assuming WS of infantry is 3, WS 4 for knights)
This guy charged by knights or greatweapons (str 5 with lances): attacks*.125= wounds
This guy charged by infantry (str 3, typically): attacks*.027=wounds
This guy by something STR 8+: hits*5/6*1/2= .41 wounds per hit
Bloodthirster/Lord of Change/Any greater demon by knights: attacks*.074=wounds (.61 for khorne's armor)
Greater demons by infantry: models * .037=wounds (.018 for khorne's armor)
Greater demons by STR 8+: hits*5/6*2/3= .56 wounds per hit
Numbers aren't that different, but against cannons, or infantry (exluding Bloodthirsters armor), this guy does a bit better.
Now that we have mathhammered out a general, lets look to troops. For 2000 points I would start with 2 units of 12 horror, with full command, and one unit with the unholy icon. Then a Demonic Herald with the mark of tzeentch, the Greater Icon of Chaos upgraded to the Banner of Wrath, and give him master of sorcery and power vortex. As for the flying circus, get 3 changebringers, 1 chariot, and a unit of 5 screamers (or 11 furies?). This is similar to how I play my Tzeenchy Demonic Legion list, though this list is led by an unmarked general.

As to how to play with it, never charge into combat. All you have to do is run behind the enemy with your flying guys and shoot/magic the weak leadership ones, have them break and hopefully take a few of teh enemies units with them. But with this general dont be afraid to charge a unit of knights thats getting close to you, just try to get teh flank or the rear so you can get all the combat resolution possible.

Also, this is just advice, give it a shot once and if it works for you great, if not, sorry.

LordPomposity
11-09-2005, 00:25
The problem with a Daemon Prince is that it's only unit strength three, and needs to be unit strength five in order to gain any bonuses for rear or flank charges.

Gop
23-01-2007, 22:21
I think one of the main problems may be that you are playing your list hoping to match your opponent in combat. You can't do that with a circus.

Try to avoid combat, especially in the early game. Use your little flyers to take out his war machines & mages. Leave his big units and cavalry stranded with nothing to charge. With cannons & mages gone, fly behind the big units and magic their arses. The horrors will eventually be charged, when this happens, try to be ready with your flyers for the countercharge. Have a flyer unit behind that big enemy unit of eg. knights so they have to retreat through yours and are auto destroyed.

Because you may only have about 50 minis, concentrate your forces rather than spread them thinly amongst several battles. If he is going to charge a horror unit, make sure you have several units ready to countercharge. This will greatly improve your chances of breaking him and making him retreat, through your waiting flyers!

Reinnon
23-01-2007, 23:00
er mate.... why did you post on a thread i made about 1 and a half years ago?

while i'm here i might as well lock it