PDA

View Full Version : Couple more unrelated questions (Eldar vs SM; also IG and SM together)



mistformsquirrel
09-11-2007, 12:35
Its time for another round of "Oh dear, he's using that dangerous lump of flesh in his cranium again!"

Alrighty - first question is straightforward; but I've been wondering it for quite a long time.

Simply put - Aspect Warriors vs Space Marines. I'm not asking for a "Fanboi" argument from either side - its obvious where that would wind up - but rather, I'd like to hear some reasonable points mad on which would win a straight engagement.

My thoughts are actually that the contest is fairly even.

Space Marines are all around superior warriors - capable of engaging a foe in any form of combat and standing a great chance of coming out on top.

HOWEVER - Aspect Warriors are extremely skilled in their area of expertise; so I think they'd actually out-skill the Marine in their one area.

The Marine of course has the advantage of physical hardiness and heavier armor, the Eldar however is even faster than a Marine...

So it seems to me they wind up fairly even.

But what do you all think? (And again, please no "OMG MARINEZ WIN" or "Eldar are soooo much better!" - I'm looking for some thought out responses here!)



Question 2:

This is one that has also been bugging me for a bit.

Would it be possible for an unorthodox Chapter to commonly fight side-by-side with the Guard regiments from its Home Planet? I know for a normal Codex chapter, thats not likely; but I'm talking about a Marine Chapter more versed in conventional warfare than most; that would try to organize with the IG commanders to act as shock troops. Perhaps they would dole out 3-4 squads per Regiment, with a couple companies on rotation home at any given stretch.

I just think it would be interesting to have a group of Guard and Marines working together, not just because of circumstance - but rather because this is their usual method of operation. Make no mistake though - the Marines would not be under Guard command nor vice-versa - they would coordinate their operations and fight together, but there are 2 separate chains of command in place.

Is that reasonable? Or is there something preventing it that I've not thought of? (which is entirely possible given my sleepiness at the moment)

pookie
09-11-2007, 12:54
Its time for another round of "Oh dear, he's using that dangerous lump of flesh in his cranium again!"

Alrighty - first question is straightforward; but I've been wondering it for quite a long time.

Simply put - Aspect Warriors vs Space Marines. I'm not asking for a "Fanboi" argument from either side - its obvious where that would wind up - but rather, I'd like to hear some reasonable points mad on which would win a straight engagement.

My thoughts are actually that the contest is fairly even.

Space Marines are all around superior warriors - capable of engaging a foe in any form of combat and standing a great chance of coming out on top.

HOWEVER - Aspect Warriors are extremely skilled in their area of expertise; so I think they'd actually out-skill the Marine in their one area.

The Marine of course has the advantage of physical hardiness and heavier armor, the Eldar however is even faster than a Marine...

So it seems to me they wind up fairly even.

But what do you all think? (And again, please no "OMG MARINEZ WIN" or "Eldar are soooo much better!" - I'm looking for some thought out responses here!)

IMO it would be failry even, although it would depend on what type of aspect. SS and HB would have a edge in combat because of their equipment, then again DA and FD would possible be at a disadvantage ( baring the FD blasting you with his melta) obviously a SH or WS would be hard to cathc, but if they didnt fly/warp then again a marine would prob have the edge, and same with DR who unless they manage to take you out with long range fire power, i cant see them having any advantage over a SM.

i always think of SM and Aspects being the Elites or there races, with both having pros and cons.

Chilltouch
09-11-2007, 14:46
Every Aspect is by far superior to a Space Marine in its element - close combat, ranged combat, mobility, whatever. However, don't be surprised if a Space Marine betters it in every other way. For example, a Space Marine probably is more lethal in ranged combat than a Howling Banshee, but will get sliced up in the melee.

RexTalon
09-11-2007, 15:33
To answer question 2, The SM and IG used to be able to team up all the time. They decided it was far too powerful to have the best tanks right next to the best troops so they nixed the rule in 3 ed. I personally think they should still be able to fight side by side. It's full of fluff and I'm sure it actually happens all the time. GW is just down playing the idea because they don't want it to seem like they've made some sort of mistake.

Truth is, if the point system and FOC were without flaws then there shouldn't be any problem at all mixing what ever forces you wanted, because you'd be paying for your power in points, and all units would be balanced, and you wouldn't have to worry about balance of power.

mick005usa
09-11-2007, 15:46
As far as Question 2 goes:

In order for Space Marines and Guard to fight in a single formation, either the SM or IG commander would have to cede some authority to the other.

It seems tough to imagine a situation, regardless of how dire, where a Space Marine commander would feel that expediency dictated he turn over command of some, or any, of his marines to an IG commander. Imperial Guard commanders would, for the most part, be ignorant as to how best to employ Space Marines. To have them "dole out 3-4 squads" to a regiment seems to run contrary to established Space Marine doctrine. Space Marines are best employed en masse in surgical actions. While the benefits to the Guard itself are clear, diluting a chapter by "rotating companies" and by the aformentioned "doling out" squads would seriously hinder the Space Marines fighting capacity. This would exponentially damage the combined strength of the two formations.

There is one scenario where I could see this changing. A Space Marine commander would be more than capable of understanding Guard tactics and doctrine, and by extension able to employ guardsmen very effectively, arguably in a better fashion than many IG commanders. Were the SM to be in charge of some "last-ditch, knock-down, drag-out, final stand against the evil (insert army here)" then it seems, to me, at least, possible for the SM leadership to take overall command of forces. To actually integrate the two forces though, would be somewhat strange and illogical.

Rockerfella
09-11-2007, 17:00
Well, obviously Marines are super powerful, physically that is. They are also fast enough to be effective on the battlefield when it suits them.

Here's my thoughts:

Marines are stronger, physically. However, thats not to say that Eldar Aspect warriors, particularly the close combat aspects, aren't tremendously powerful either. Some Eldar, though not as powerful as marines, will be supermely strong by human standards, and some won't.

All aspects are however, total specialists at what they do. They are also quicker and more agile than a marine is, so, as the above poster pointed out, things tend to equal themselves out.

A one on one fight depends on the circumstances, and who's writing it, basically. Naturally, most GW literature is marine centric, and so no matter the skill, power or ability of the opponent, they never quite seem to match the marines.

Cheers!

bosstroll
09-11-2007, 17:22
The first question seems to be adequatly answered.
As to the second one, after the horus heresy, space marines and imperial guardsmen (the guard was still known as the imperial army back then) where split up. This was done for 2 reasons, first, almost all the non-augmented regiments serving with traitorous marine legions, has sided with theyre marine masters. Secondly, it was found that augmented troops commanding non-augmented troops often drove theyre charges to destruction, simply because they couldn't keep up with their augmented masters.

Now, marines do fight *with* the guard quite often, but in theses instances marines fullfill roles more akin to special forces in modern armies. (Stormtroopers are basically the poor mans marine) The marines will carry out surgical raids, enemy line penetrations, blow up the big'ol doomsday cannon, etc. While at the same time, the guard will engage the enemies main forces (most often rebels and traitors, as oposed to aliens and actual csm)

leo_neil316
09-11-2007, 18:33
According to some of the guard (I think) fluff after the heresy marines were banned from commanding normal human troops (bar the occasional scenario specific occasion) because...

1: Marines with their own private armies is about the same as 'having to many marines in one place' it went so wrong last time they won't risk a second.

2: Marines tend to forget that other people -aren't- superhuman killing machines and have been known to confuse lack of spirit/determination with compleate and utter exaustion. After all you have nothing to fear from the heavy bolter fire when the emperor protects you. The power armours just a bonus. ;)

As for marines vs aspect warriors, it depends on the exact circumstances, for example.

Scorpian vs tactical marine.
Nice clear firelane and favourable spotting circumstances and the scorpian is fishbait. Up close though that marine would be in some trouble.

Scorpian vs assault marine.
Close as a shave with a lightsaber (okay I'm bad at anologies sue me) but this one would probally go to the assault marine fluffwise. Scorpian needs the drop to beat a close combat equiped marine and marines just don't die that easily.

Banshe vs assault marine.
Banshe, hands down. Killing things like assault marines (tough armoured skilled infantry) is what banshes are -for- fluffwise, the banshe mask and power weapon just tip this to far in the banshe's favour.

Banshe vs Terminator.
Depends on the weapon load the terminator is carrying of course but this is allmost as one sided as the banshe vs assault marine fight, and in the other direction. Terminators might lost some speed but a pfist storm bolter guy just needs a -close- swing to hurt the girl and has protection her weapons have trouble beating (fluffwise) lightning claws or thammer/shield? Banshe dies, messily.

All just in my opinion of course.

Captain Stern
09-11-2007, 20:01
I'm so shocked to find that this thread's become a Warseer-Eldar love-in so soon. :rolleyes:

A few points:

I love how you lot always put it down to author bias when space marines consistently beat Eldar in the background. It couldn't be that these authors are drawing from established background, all the way down from Rogue Trader, when they write about space marines pasting Eldar. How far fetched would that be!

Eldar Aspect Warriors are not TOTAL specialists at what they do. They are not TOTALLY dedicated to their method of warfare. Only Exarchs are TOTALLY dedicated to the path of their aspect. When they're not fighting or training, Aspect Warriors live normal Eldar lives, just like Eldar who become guardians in times of war. You could almost say that Aspect Warriors are just suped-up guardians.

Space marines on the other hand, like exarchs, dedicate their who lives to fighting. Also let's not forget that space marines are chosen from the cream of humanity's fighting stock, so a space marine isn't just a normal human given advancements, training and decent wargear.

Just because an Eldar specialises in something doesn't mean that that Eldar is automatically better than everybody else in the universe at doing that particular thing.

Speed is pretty much the only thing an Eldar Aspect warrior has on a space marine, and even that's debatable especially when you consider that some space marines are faster than others. Oh, and just because a howling banshee has a power sword doesn't mean she can automatically kill a space marine. I think I read somewhere that space marines are trained to block, parry and lots of specialised things like that. :eek:

RexTalon
10-11-2007, 07:06
None of which is either here nor there when answering the question of the Original Poster. Let's keep it on topic and drop the Eldar vs Marine fluff talk.

The question was, would SM and IG team? The answer is, yes, to a degree. They would NOT cede command to anyone. The SM would fight for the Emperor, and the Guard would fight for the Emperor. Who is in command of that entire CAMPAIGN (ie Warmaster/Lord Solar) would be calling the shots.
(Unless it's the Dark Angels, in which case they're always calling their own shots.)

Tehkonrad
10-11-2007, 07:39
hey me eldarphile alarm is sounding, to the orkmobile Gretchin!!!!! nanananananananananana
aside from that batman related bad joke i agree with rextalon

Chilltouch
10-11-2007, 09:22
Aspect Warriors are more experienced and more skilled than Space Marines. It's as simple as that - Aspect Warriors have probably perfected their own fighting style. Wouldn't you with a hundred years of practice?

However, Space Marines are far stronger and if they manage to corner an Aspect Warrior, no matter what it is, a single punch would smash their lovely little Wraithbone helmets to pieces and turn their heads into red mists.

By the way, have fun blocking and parrying a power weapon if you don't have one of your own. I'm sure you won't mind the object you are parrying with or blocking with being sliced before you are sliced, which was just as planned.

Aspect Warriors aren't "souped-up Guardians" either - I imagine them as living rather monastaric lives on their Craftworlds, dedicating their life to the perfection of their particular Aspect. Exarchs however, take such "perfection", to the next level. Where it becomes their entire life, where they know nothing but their Aspect and that way of life.

I don't see Aspect Warriors as practicing a couple of hours per day before they sit back and relax in their Craftworlds, sipping tea. While they are on a path, they dedicate themselves to that path. Becoming an Exarch is more than just dedication. They become a living weapon, they exist for no other reason other than butchering their enemy in their chosen style. While you can say the same for Space Marines, Space Marines haven't reach the level of specialization that Exarchs or even Aspect Warriors probably have.

I'm not an eldarphile - I am just marineaphobic.

trigger
10-11-2007, 12:19
Question 1,
Are both armed, if its just straight up punch up. my money would be on the marine He may not be as fast but every other atvantage is in his favor.
Add weapons and it starts to get messy and other questions come into play.
If we take howling banshe(elite) if she is fighting a blood claw it say the banshee would win, but if we replace the blood claw with a wolf guard she only gets one strike to kill him or she dead as they can be.

Question 2
No,
alkthough you may have the senario were a space marine chapter has fouht along side a guard regiment so many times that, they have a standard arangement for coalision.

The reason i say no , is because with the constant mix marines would lose some of there aww to the guaurd , you only have to see a few die and you sudenly realise that they are not so super hard.
but seeing this all the time would defenatrly make you think there not that good atall. Pluss you have the thing were a marine will not give up his life for stupid reasons, some jobs the guard are just the better option, so you will also get resentment to the marines from the ig ," why do we get all the crap jobs , were loads of us could die for nothing ,but mr glory marine over there gots to pray"


Hope this makes sense and helps

Eisen
10-11-2007, 13:50
I'm surprised that no one's brought up the Ultramar PDF, which has been shown in fluff to fight alongside Marines on a pretty regular basis. They'd kind of have to, really, given the day-to-day involvement of the Ultramarines in the running of that region.

Tanith Ghost
10-11-2007, 16:03
I agree with chilltouch here- an aspect warrior is the king of his craft. The marine really
contends in this fight by taking the fight to the eldar on every level of battle.
If faced with a banshee- shoot her. A fire dragon? Punch his lights out.

In a no weapons armor only melee, the eldar would be in serious trouble. Unless they could win fast( very possible but difficult to pull off) the marine's resilience and stamina
would put him in place to win by outlasting the eldar and coming on with a powerful counter attack.


Well said Eisen. The Ultramar PDF(which Ultramar raises to help out, not because they have to meet tithes) could well have the support of their superhuman brothers on semi-regular basis. Not too often though, as the Ultramar auxillia was made to cover more ground than the chapter alone could.

Noserenda
10-11-2007, 16:04
Marine v Aspect Warrior? Id generally say Marine, unless theyre in a situation that favours the Aspect in question. Marines can tough it out, and have the flexibility to counter the Eldar's specialisation. Except Dark Reapers, they rape marines :skull:

Marines fighting permenantly with IG? Pretty much banned by the Reforms Post-Heresy and difficult to reconcile due to the two forces differing attitudes. Although it could technically be possible, the forces involved would be a hairsbreadth from being Renegades. (And if you wanted to do that, renegades would be better really).

The Ultramar PDF? They arent Imperial Guard... :chrome:

Captain Stern
10-11-2007, 17:19
Aspect Warriors are more experienced and more skilled than Space Marines. It's as simple as that -

Oh it is, is it? Care to back that statement up with sources?


Aspect Warriors have probably perfected their own fighting style. Wouldn't you with a hundred years of practice?

So space marines die in their sixties and seventies now, do they? Besides, even if Aspect Warriors are more experienced (which I don't think they are), experience doesn't always win over skill and/or natural talent.


By the way, have fun blocking and parrying a power weapon if you don't have one of your own. I'm sure you won't mind the object you are parrying with or blocking with being sliced before you are sliced, which was just as planned.

chainswords have always been able to block and parry power weapons, although there's always a danger that a power sword will slice through as illustrated in the Inquisitor game. If you want an example of a chainsword vs. power weapon exchange you could do worse than the battle between Ragnar and Madox in Space Wolf by Bill King. The sword he was using was actually even more killy than a power sword.


Aspect Warriors aren't "souped-up Guardians" either - I imagine them as living rather monastaric lives on their Craftworlds, dedicating their life to the perfection of their particular Aspect. Exarchs however, take such "perfection", to the next level. Where it becomes their entire life, where they know nothing but their Aspect and that way of life.

I don't see Aspect Warriors as practicing a couple of hours per day before they sit back and relax in their Craftworlds, sipping tea. While they are on a path, they dedicate themselves to that path. Becoming an Exarch is more than just dedication. They become a living weapon, they exist for no other reason other than butchering their enemy in their chosen style. While you can say the same for Space Marines, Space Marines haven't reach the level of specialization that Exarchs or even Aspect Warriors probably have.

I'm not an eldarphile - I am just marineaphobic.

Well, according to 2nd ed Codex Eldar you're wrong.

I'm not Eldarphobic. I've always thought it was made pretty clear in the background that Eldar Aspect Warriors are better than everyone else in the galaxy - apart from Space Marines who are far above and beyond everybody. It's also clear, at least in 2nd ed, that Exarchs are generally much better fighters than space marines (troopers that is).

kikkoman
10-11-2007, 17:26
well... in Inqusitor... the common Eldar pirate has a skill level, mental stats, leadership, etc. abilities higher than a grey knight space marine. Eldar pirate captains have stats even higher, going above the usual limit of 100. And these are pirates, which... I dunno, I'm guessing they're not as polished as path walking aspect warriors.
Space marines are ridiculously tough and strong though.

I guess in the 40k setup...

space marines=superhumans all around, but orks=can get stronger/tougher/bigger, Eldar=can go further in mastery, skill, willpower

Though orks can also get very skilled, and Eldar very tough.

the 40k universe is suppose to be very dangerous, GRIM & DARK y'know? It's a little cheapening to have humanity's saviors just stomp all over all enemies.

hmmm, as a visual aid
here's a video of Kaoklai Kaennorsing, 170lb kickboxer taking on Mighty Mo, 290lb kickboxer, and winning
http://youtube.com/watch?v=znooRXwni6o
around 5 minutes is the knockout. Kaoklai's famous for fighting in the superheavyweight division, being the lightest superheavyweight champ, his ability to dodge by inches, and hit really, really hard. Though he eventually lost to Hong Man Choi, who is just too ridiculously huge.

an Exarch is basically Pai Mei with a gun that shoots ninja stars, that is pretty badass.
http://www.mojito.se/bilder/foto/blogjournal/pai_mei.jpg

Captain Stern
10-11-2007, 17:42
well... in Inqusitor... the common Eldar pirate has a skill level, mental stats, leadership, etc. abilities higher than a grey knight space marine. Eldar pirate captains have stats even higher, going above the usual limit of 100. And these are pirates, which... I dunno, I'm guessing they're not as polished as path walking aspect warriors.
Space marines are ridiculously tough and strong though.

I guess in the 40k setup...

space marines=superhumans all around, but orks=can get stronger/tougher/bigger, Eldar=can go further in mastery, skill, willpower]

Ok, but this is not so in 40k tabletop. Do we really want to bring the game into this (I know, I know, I started it)? Besides in Inquisitor it's pretty clear that, because their amazing strength and toughness give space marines a huge advantage, they felt that they had to sacrifice their other stats (this is a game where you have a mere 5 models per side). Take Artemis for example. His Weapon Skill is lower than an Imperial Guard veteran. I mean... ridiculous. If you look at pretty much every single space marine character created by people on the inquisitor message board, they all have weapon skills equal to, and often exceeding, Eldar pirate captains. Ok, they're made by fans, but they're unarguably far more realistic.

Captain Stern
10-11-2007, 17:49
the 40K universe is suppose to be very dangerous, GRIM & DARK y'know? It's a little cheapening to have humanity's saviors just stomp all over all enemies.


There's only a million of these guys in the entire universe. Give them a break. The Emperor made the space marines precisely because the 40k universe is so dangerous and filled with all kinds of aliens able to unleash all manner of whoopass on the standard human being. They have bits of gods in them.

If they weren't so much better than every one else in the universe then a space marine chapter of a thousand space marines just wouldn't be realistic.

Chilltouch
10-11-2007, 17:56
Well, no source. However, there has to be some sort of opponent that match the Space Marines or by the 41st millenium, the Space Elves would be long dead. A dying race with elite soldiers that are no match for a colossal empire's elite soldiers would die. It's logical. So, if Eldar are to survive, then they must be able to counter Space Marines. So, Aspect Warriors.

I'm not saying Aspect Warriors are greater. If the Space Marines lands his punch, in close combat or range combat, he reduces his opponent to mince. However, Aspect Warriors rely on either avoiding those punches, or making a deadly punch of their own before they make one.

As I said before - if a Space Marine smacks a Howling Banshee in the face with a bolter, physically or via ranged combat, the face turns into a fine red mist. But, it's up to the Banshee to avoid said bolter with skill and agility before performing a deadly and precise blow before her opponent can react.

I admit that the Eldar wouldn't like facing Space Marines, perhaps even fear them because they are very dangerous warriors.

And yes, Space Marines probably die a lot before their 60s and 70s. They're needed throughout the galaxy on thousands of occassions, to knock down particularily tough rebellions, storm hibernating or partially hibernating hiveships, retake a Tau-conquered planet or do whatever job that half a dozen IG regiments can't. And seeing as there is one Space Marine for billions, perhaps trillions of normal human, I wouldn't be surprised if these crisises happen an awful lot.

And even if the Space Marines win most of them - which they do - expect up to 5% casualties per company. And since they're probably needed everywhere, all the time, their numbers must dwindle rather fast.

EDIT: Do the 3rd and 4th edition codices prove me wrong?

Captain Stern
10-11-2007, 18:07
Well, no source. However, there has to be some sort of opponent that match the Space Marines or by the 41st millenium, the Space Elves would be long dead. A dying race with elite soldiers that are no match for a colossal empire's elite soldiers would die. It's logical. So, if Eldar are to survive, then they must be able to counter Space Marines. So, Aspect Warriors.


I don't think it's logical at all. Space marines in 40k function as super elite shock/ terror troops fighting in very specialised situations. They fight in limited numbers which means they're unable to fight big sustained wars on their own. This is because their power was broken after the Horus Heresy. The fact that, man for man, they're superior doesn't mean squat when you consider their limited numbers. Actually you know what? There are probably way more Aspect Warriors than there are space marines.

Originally it really did look like the Eldar, a dying race with elite soldiers, were going to be exterminated along with all the other aliens, by The Imperium, a colossal empire with soldiers even more elite. This was during the Great Crusade when space marines were fielded as fully fledged armies.

UPDATE:


And yes, Space Marines probably die a lot before their 60s and 70s. They're needed throughout the galaxy on thousands of occassions, to knock down particularily tough rebellions, storm hibernating or partially hibernating hiveships, retake a Tau-conquered planet or do whatever job that half a dozen IG regiments can't. And seeing as there is one Space Marine for billions, perhaps trillions of normal human, I wouldn't be surprised if these crisises happen an awful lot.

Obviously statistically speaking a few die in their first decades of fighting. Some probably die in their first few years or less. This is also true of Aspect Warriors. Both kinds of troops are very valuable (for somewhat different reasons) and so will be employed in ways to limit casualties. A lot of space marines do live to be centuries old as illustrated in the many stories they feature in.

Kage2020
10-11-2007, 18:16
We're playing a version of "make believe" here, lads. Surely it is "I believe," rather than anything else?

First off I am an Eldarphile. I don't mind admitting it. I'm also rather fond of much of the 'fluff' on the Imperium, though my least favourite aspect of it is the way that the "medieval Europe" image gets rammed down your throat and, if you don't agree with it, you're told to "sling yer 'ook." Ah well. (Of course, if you like that image, then everything is cool!)

Secondly, a big caveat. Not only do I not play the wargame, but I also see it as generating a lot of fallacious arguments in any discussion of the 'fluff.' Thus I don't tend to believe it, up to and including the idea that "higher rank = more powerful" (i.e. Marines < Sergeants < Captain, etc.). Rank can just be that: rank.

Is an Eldar Guardian "better" than an Imperial Guardsman?
This, for me, is an easy question. Physically and mentally the average Eldar is superior to the average human being -- they're faster, more agile, generally thought of as being able to process more information in a given period of time, etc. Couple that with the fact that their technology is far, far more advanced than that of the Imperium? No choice. Eldar Guardian > Imperial Guardsman.

Is an Eldar Guardian better than all Imperial Guardsman?
Another easy one, though my answer for this is "no." Once you go beyond the averages and go into the exceptions, I'd plump firmly down on the side of the Guard (or the Guard elites). While the Eldar might be quicker (etc.) and have more advanced technology, they're also "weekend warriors" or, well, the Eldar equivalent. Elite Guard tend to be battle hardened and experienced.

(In some regards this is, for me, like the difference between fighting in the martial arts. Give me the choice between a mid-range belt and a black belt, I'd go for the black-belt every time. Give me the choice between a civilian black belt and someone from the non-grunt military? I'd go with the military, even if they don't have a piece of black cloth to tie around their waist.)

Is an Eldar Guardian better than a Space Marine?
No.

Is an Eldar Guardian better than an Aspect Warrior?
No.

Is an Eldar Aspect Warrior better than a Space Marine?
Back to the hard question again. The training issue is now harder, since both seem to broadly "immerse" themselves in the art of being a warrior and a killer. What the Eldar lacks in "time per day," they make up with in general native ability (for me). The technological issue is also more marginal, with the relative degree of technology employed with the Marine not being as extreme as with the lesser troop types. Similarly, the Marine has the whole "walking tank" thing going for them, where as the aesthetic of the Aspect Warrior is, well, something else.

With all that said, I'm still going to land down on the side of the Aspect Warriors within their speciality. Again, though, this is where you get into the difference of preference and tolerance. Marines have a broad preference, but they've got a much wider tolerance. Aspect Warriors have the same preference, but a much narrower tolerance. Again, for me.

So, again, Aspect Warrior pips the post, but as soon as you make make it more than about "close combat," or "ranged combat" the Marine pips the post.

Is an Exarch better than a Space Marine?
On average? Yes. See below, though.

Is an Exarch better than a Space Marine sergeant?
And this is where I get into the problem with the wargame. Rank does not necessarily translate to ability, even though you could argue that with both Aspect Warriors and Marines that there is a cetain case of meritocracy going about.

Suffice to say that I would tend to believe than an Exarch could kick the butt of any Space Marine that he or she came acorss... except the ones that he couldn't. ;)

As to Inquisitor? Great background, but the game mechanics suck. Same thing with the wargame, though I believe the rules are more successful in their attempts at doing... well, what they attempt. On the bright side, it does allow for these discussions, even if they are ultimately futile.

Kage

leo_neil316
10-11-2007, 18:21
Chilltouch, the reason the space elves ain't all dead is no one can really get to where they live. Aspect warriors -outnumber- marines in the fluff by an order of magnitude.

Space marines in 40k are alot more toned down than eldar. Take older editions of 40k (like back when the master of the ravenwing needed -5 to hit before he budged from a 2+ and dante, 1000 year old master of the vampire marines didn't have the same ws as a 'hardened heroic guard captain').

In their specific aspect various kinds of aspect warriors will have an edge on an average marine. Like say a banshe and an assault marine on the ground ducking it out sword to sword. If the assault marine just hovers thirty feet in the air and shoots her though.....

The expections (I reckon) would be avengers and dragons. Ranged specialists who can't outrange the marine.

Theres a reason eldar make sure to get the farseers to tell them where they'll find easy fights after all. And theres a damn good reason why marines use droppods to make sure people can't avoid them so easily.

kikkoman
10-11-2007, 18:39
Theres a reason eldar make sure to get the farseers to tell them where they'll find easy fights after all. And theres a damn good reason why marines use droppods to make sure people can't avoid them so easily.

eh, I could say something like....

Space marines use drop pods to avoid casualties, strike the enemy's weakest point, and get an easy fight. Eldar use webway gates to travel across the galaxy to pick a fight, because nobody is out of reach of the Eldar war machine.

Both armies suffer in sustained battles anyways. SM's fight until the IG arrive, then they leave. Eldar try to win in as short a time frame as possible.


I admit that the Eldar wouldn't like facing Space Marines, perhaps even fear them because they are very dangerous warriors.
Poo, thats like saying an ork would fear fighting a marine. If anything it psyches them up
Eldar enjoy a good scrap, they live to fight, or fighting is the height of existence for them. I imagine, especially the aspect warriors, would relish the opportunity to kill a space marine. Their only not-completely-dead God is the God of Murder and Battle(and the laughing one that nobody knows where he is), that probably affects their personality.

Though I think the Eldar preference is in fighting chaos and Chaos Space Marines.

Chilltouch
10-11-2007, 18:59
The Space Elves are not wide spread. They are not constantly undersiege. Their numbers are tiny compared to those of their kind.

Hells, their main method of warfare is by using psychic methods to manipulate lesser beings.

Aspect Warriors may be more common than Space Marines but they are needed far less often - only when their Craftworld is under siege or if they have to escort a Farseer or another figure of importance outside their Craftworld.

You may say that this may cause lack of experience but Eldar probably have all sorts of advanced training rituals and protocols - wouldn't be surprised if some Craftworlds kept Orks or similar creatures stored inside entirely seperated environmental spheres, or planets where they were constantly culled for practice.

kikkoman
10-11-2007, 20:58
The Space Elves are not wide spread.
but they can get anywhere held by anybody. Or better than anyone else can


They are not constantly undersiege.
'cause they're the ones besieging, Eldar are on a constant offensive.







Hells, their main method of warfare is by using psychic methods to manipulate lesser beings.

well, they scan the future and then send warriors in to tip things to their favor. I guess what you're saying almost sounds like mind control, but I don't think thats what you meant.



Aspect Warriors may be more common than Space Marines but they are needed far less often - only when their Craftworld is under siege or if they have to escort a Farseer or another figure of importance outside their Craftworld.

I dunno about that. Eldar got the webway and the ability to see into the future. I imagine the life of an aspect warrior is constant warfare. They can get nearly anywhere in the galaxy anytime. While the IG takes a looong time to mobilize, and space marines still need to travel through space/the warp, Eldar pop out of the webway with the fastest spacecraft.
2nd ed codex had a cool story of Eldar fighting a chaos rebellion, because the IG would only be able to mobilize months later, so the Eldar warped in.

The space marine are the mythical elite of the Imperium. The vaaaast majority of fighting is done by nameless guardsmen that die nameless deaths.

Eldar though, Aspect warriors are the first into battle, and Eldar are always in battle, because they always choose to be in battle. The way that guardian fluff is suppose to work is that "there are not enough Aspect warriors though, so even guardians have to pitch in for large battles". This means that every single aspect warrior is already engaged in battle, but more numbers are needed so guardians move in.

Space marines fighting some orks on planet X need to load back up and fly home before going to planet Y to fight some tyranids.

Aspect warriors finishing up planet X, they take one webway gate to get back to the craftworld, and the next week gear up to portal into planet Y and stomp some tyranids.




You may say that this may cause lack of experience but Eldar probably have all sorts of advanced training rituals and protocols - wouldn't be surprised if some Craftworlds kept Orks or similar creatures stored inside entirely seperated environmental spheres, or planets where they were constantly culled for practice.

I'd say they're likely to have the most experience, the webway gates again. No need to farm orks, just open up a portal to ork territory and start the killing. Orks exist everywhere in the galaxy, Eldar can get anywhere in the galaxy.

Biel Tann constantly is on the look out for warbands to destroy, and are very aggressive protectors of Eldar held planets.


The original RT fluff of the Eldar were space pirates that picked fights for fun, Eldar like to fight. Aspect Warriors are entirely dedicated to battle. Exarch's are the concept of violence personified, Phoenix Lords are demigod warriors of a thousand myths.

hmmmm
a space marine being able to outfight an aspect warrior, it's acceptable, yeah.
I think it's jus tthe SHEEER NUMBERS of marine players in the tabletop game that skews things, hahah.

carl
10-11-2007, 23:32
@Ca[ptain Styern: No offense, but GW HAVE gone on record on SEVERAL occashions as stating that none of an ][ SM characters stats are downgraded for game balance. f you look at the averages in he character creation section a SM beats a guard vetran pretty much every tme in stats. Theirs also littile if any real fluff justification for a SM to have WS/BS/I values in ][ over a hundred, their skilled but it's implied in many sources that very highly skilled humans at the very peak of their abilities, using weapons they have had extremly ong term expiriance with CAN match a SM in these respects, only a tiny handful of "lets make SM's the most Uber L33t thing eva" fluff sources give them speed, or skil advantages tottally beyond a highly skilled human.

I admit the first time I saw the stats I was a bit suprised myself, but once I started actually looking at the fluff, their are very few sources that guive SM's tottally inhuman abilities and 40K actually backs this up with several ordinary, (for a given value of ordnary), human characters that can match or exceed them, (][ and death cult assasins are the most obvious, but most IG spcial characters don't seem too far behind eithier).

If people making ][ SM characters are giving them WS/BS/I stats of over 100 they need some kind of special fluff justification for it, (unushual gene-seed, or extreme specelisation spring to mind as two big loylist options), since their very littile actual evidance in eithier 40K rule, or fluff for marines being tottaly unmatchable in skill or speed terms by exceptionol normal humans.


Weather a SM would beat an aspect warrior is a diffrent matter however. It's very nebulous, a Banshee that actually makes CC is going to tear her opponnent apart ith that power weapon of hers. A SS is a bit diffrent, he isn't going to gut the marine in one hit, so the marine actually has a chance to wear his opponnent down with defensive styles till he can luanch an attack on a slowed opponennt. In a shooting contest he probably get's his **** kicked, but mostly because the average eldar rangd aspect has a heavy or special weapon EACH. SM's typiclly don't, start handing out a havy or special each to the SM's and it's all up in the air again.

Misanthrope
10-11-2007, 23:48
Well IMO such a thing would only happen if the conflict took place close to the planet that the SM chapter and IG force were from. Otherwise, where IG regiments and SM chapters go is probably based on Administratum orders. It's like asking if a USMC unit and a US Army unit from the same state/city will be deployed together -- most likely not when they're sent overseas, but if there was some ficticious attack on the US in that area then they might go into combat together...

Kage2020
11-11-2007, 01:11
Chilltouch, the reason the space elves ain't all dead is no one can really get to where they live.
Which isn't necessarily true. After all, the Imperium is seemingly able to track them, Slaanesh seemingly knows where they all are and, when it comes down to it, most peoples' interpretation of Eldar Craftworlds is such that there really is so very little difference between them and planets. And, yes, that's despite the common arguments as to why the Eldar do not settle worlds.


Aspect warriors -outnumber- marines in the fluff by an order of magnitude.
That's a new one for me. Seriously, do you have a piece of material that suggests that the total number of Aspect Warriors on all the Craftworlds comes to 10,000,000 to 99,999,999? If so, then that gives us a reasonable ability to guess the population of the Eldar, which is not something that have been able to do before.


I imagine the life of an aspect warrior is constant warfare.
To play Devil's Advocate, though, one can look to "combat art" and real combat for inspiration here. What matters if you have someone that trains for combat all the time in comparison to someone that is in combat all the time?

(Not that I quite believe it, but just offering up the obvious counter argument.)


@Ca[ptain Styern: No offense, but GW HAVE gone on record on SEVERAL occashions as stating that none of an ][ SM characters stats are downgraded for game balance.
To be fair, though, one also has to consider the traditional "Space Marine Plasma Fists of Doom" argument. Broken system or realistic representation of the 40k universe? ;)


...40K actually backs this up with several ordinary, (for a given value of ordnary), human characters that can match or exceed them...
And assassins... etc., etc. Good reminder, carl. We should not find ourselves overtly swayed by GW's proclivity towards hyperbole. It makes easy "flavour text," but that's about it.

Kage

Ivan Stupidor
11-11-2007, 01:58
To be fair, though, one also has to consider the traditional "Space Marine Plasma Fists of Doom" argument. Broken system or realistic representation of the 40k universe? ;)


Obviously the problem is that plasma is too weak!

Kage2020
11-11-2007, 02:25
Damn plasma's eyes to death and back. Maybe we should involve the warp and make it "warp plasma" and, well, suddenly it will be the new super-armament for Marines?

No, that wouldn't work. Mere Marines couldn't handle "warp plasma." Best leave it to the Grey Knights. :rolleyes: :eyebrows:

Kage

kikkoman
11-11-2007, 04:48
when it comes down to it...

if there's a story that has a space marine kill an aspect warrior, and it's fun to read, doesn't make any glaring 'mistakes', then that's cool

If there's a story of an aspect warrior killing a space marine, and its fun to read, nothing too terribly out of place, then that's cool.

Kage2020
11-11-2007, 05:05
Perspective. Aye. That's about it. No surprises there.

Kage

Imperialis_Dominatus
11-11-2007, 08:48
Its time for another round of "Oh dear, he's using that dangerous lump of flesh in his cranium again!"

It ain't flesh, it's grey matter. :p


None of which is either here nor there when answering the question of the Original Poster. Let's keep it on topic and drop the Eldar vs Marine fluff talk.

Er, no. Actually, the poster asked two questions. One of which was... Aspect Warrior (Eldar) vs. Space Marine. Sorry bud.


Aspect Warriors are more experienced and more skilled than Space Marines. It's as simple as that - Aspect Warriors have probably perfected their own fighting style. Wouldn't you with a hundred years of practice?

And most Marines, by the fluff I've read, while doomed to die in battle due to their lifestyle, die in battle after a long time. Marines are not Guard, despite the number of players who play them- and they most certainly are not properly represented on the tabletop. Remember Movie Marines? Yeah.

All I'm saying is that to say that an Aspect Warrior has more experience than a Space Marine is bunk. An Exarch is a different story.


By the way, have fun blocking and parrying a power weapon if you don't have one of your own. I'm sure you won't mind the object you are parrying with or blocking with being sliced before you are sliced, which was just as planned.

There are more ways to nullify a blow than directly blocking it. Dodging, deflecting, and footwork come to mind. All things a Marine can do. Plus, as mentioned, normal weapons have a chance of blocking power weapons, but also have a chance of being chopped.

DantesInferno
11-11-2007, 08:54
And most Marines, by the fluff I've read, while doomed to die in battle due to their lifestyle, die in battle after a long time. Marines are not Guard, despite the number of players who play them- and they most certainly are not properly represented on the tabletop. Remember Movie Marines? Yeah.

There's a myth that Movie Marines are an accurate representation of Marines' "true" abilities. Or at least are closer than their standard 40k presentation.

It's a bit of a dodgy one. Movie Marines are meant to represent Marines according to Imperial propaganda. The presence of stunt doubles should indicate that it's not an entirely serious presentation of Marines' "true" capabilities.

Imperialis_Dominatus
11-11-2007, 09:21
There's a myth that Movie Marines are an accurate representation of Marines' "true" abilities. Or at least are closer than their standard 40k presentation.

It's a bit of a dodgy one. Movie Marines are meant to represent Marines according to Imperial propaganda. The presence of stunt doubles should indicate that it's not an entirely serious presentation of Marines' "true" capabilities.

Mmmmkay. Point taken. But would you concede that certain elements of 40k are underrepresented in the tabletop game, or underpowered as to their power in fluff, to maintain balance (and have more models on the field/more models sold)?

DantesInferno
11-11-2007, 09:38
Mmmmkay. Point taken. But would you concede that certain elements of 40k are underrepresented in the tabletop game, or underpowered as to their power in fluff, to maintain balance (and have more models on the field/more models sold)?

Bit of a chicken & egg scenario, really. Were their rules designed to made them weaker to sell more models, or were the stories (and the myths!) surrounding them designed to make them appear cooler to sell more models?

Chilltouch
11-11-2007, 10:46
Actually, the Eldar's seers do probably work via psychic methods in the most part. If they can't do that, then they probably send in the cavalry to wipe up the mess. For example, incoming Ork fleet that you manage to detect before they arrive? Send a few little niggling suggestions into the back of the main Ork's head that says "The fighting's the other way". That's just an example.

I understand though, there are cases where that doesn't happen and the Eldar have to send in their own warriors. But they do not send it hordes of their people whenever they encounter a problem. They are a dying race, remember? If they are constantly on the offensive, then it is probably with small groups of Aspect Warriors or maybe just a few assassins.

Eldar can't appear everywhere. They can appear wherever there is a Webway Gate.

Anyway, you talk about Eldar as if they are friends of the Imperium, handling whatever they can't by sending in their own forces. Which I think is a bunch of utter tripe - if there's a chance that the Chaos rebellion will threaten their Craftworld in the future, they will probably use psychic powers to speed the Imperial Guard or Space Marines on their merry way through the Warp. And if that isn't possible, then they send down a few Warp Spiders to sneak into the Chaos Lord's lair and butcher him, before they phase out.

But honestly, the Eldar sending in their forces for massive ground assault battles does not sound Eldary at all. If you're a dying race, you wouldn't constantly be on the offensive. The first and foremost tactic is to use psychic trickery to discover the future, and then manipulate the situation, by either clearing up some Warp turbulence for Imperial forces so they can deal with it, or planting psychic suggestions in a commander's mind.

And when they really, really have to, then they send in the cavalry to wipe up the situation. When you're on the edge of extinct and find it difficult to breed, you don't send your warriors into the middle of the battlefield.

leo_neil316
11-11-2007, 11:17
I can never remember, is it saim hien or biel'tan thats constantly getting it's swordwind 'lets all rule the galaxy again' on?

DantesInferno
11-11-2007, 11:27
Anyway, you talk about Eldar as if they are friends of the Imperium, handling whatever they can't by sending in their own forces. Which I think is a bunch of utter tripe - if there's a chance that the Chaos rebellion will threaten their Craftworld in the future, they will probably use psychic powers to speed the Imperial Guard or Space Marines on their merry way through the Warp. And if that isn't possible, then they send down a few Warp Spiders to sneak into the Chaos Lord's lair and butcher him, before they phase out.

But honestly, the Eldar sending in their forces for massive ground assault battles does not sound Eldary at all. If you're a dying race, you wouldn't constantly be on the offensive. The first and foremost tactic is to use psychic trickery to discover the future, and then manipulate the situation, by either clearing up some Warp turbulence for Imperial forces so they can deal with it, or planting psychic suggestions in a commander's mind.

I suspect you're overestimating the times that the Farseers are capable of gaining precise and accurate foresight into the future and what needs to be done to change it.

I'd imagine that most of the time its a very inexact science indeed (except for exceptional individuals like Eldrad), and the Eldar application of force is still going to require a fair amount of guesswork. And there are going to be occasions where the Farseers disagree, and so on.


I can never remember, is it saim hien or biel'tan thats constantly getting it's swordwind 'lets all rule the galaxy again' on?

Biel-Tan.

Imperialis_Dominatus
11-11-2007, 13:32
I prefer to approach the fluff separate from the filthy nasty corporate side of GW. Though it is an avenue of introspect into the fluff, I prefer to think Marines were originally made out to be badass because they are badass... because they are badass. Not speaking as a fanboy, I hope you all understand. I also think Eldar are cool.... in a different way. Same with the other races. Even in some ways... the... (dammit ID spit it out)... Necrons. That took effort. But yeah.

Chilltouch
11-11-2007, 13:53
Perhaps you're correct - perhaps it does require a lot of guesswork. However, when you patch together the assorted predictions of different Farseers who inhabit a Craftworld, eventually they would probably come up with a fairly accurate guess and act on that.

mistformsquirrel
11-11-2007, 20:49
I suspect you're overestimating the times that the Farseers are capable of gaining precise and accurate foresight into the future and what needs to be done to change it.

I'd imagine that most of the time its a very inexact science indeed (except for exceptional individuals like Eldrad), and the Eldar application of force is still going to require a fair amount of guesswork. And there are going to be occasions where the Farseers disagree, and so on.

I'd assume this is where the Autarchs come in.

The Farseers give them what they know - and tell the Autarch if the information is sketchy or if they believe it reliable; then the Autarch plans the operation. Thus Eldar armies have the benefit of both scrying and strategic planning, whereas most armies can only claim the latter.

Back to the original topic...

I didn't honestly realize Marines vs Aspect Warriors could cause something of an uproar... I mean I kinda knew it would be contentious, but lets keep it civil eh? I mean its just the background to a wargame here, no reason to get worked up.

I'm actually more convinced now than when I started that Marines are going to, on average, be about equal to an Aspect Warrior, with the Aspect Warrior being able to tip the balance by luring the Marine into their kind of fight. Marines are just plain tough, they have fantastic equipment, and are capable of success in almost any type of engagement.

Conversely, the Aspect Warrior is extremely specialized, and exceptionally deadly in their environment. Taken out of their environment things will get hairy however.

I was btw, referring to battles with equipment, as I'm not sure combat without it is all that relevant. (With a few exceptions, unarmed combat I'm thinking goes to the Marine - although both train intensely with their equipment, the Marine's physique allows him to get away with much greater mistakes in an unarmed brawl)

All in all, aside from the minor flaming, a good discussion on the matter I think.

I admit, I neglected to think of the more exotic aspects - namely Swooping Hawks and Shining Spears. Those two present... a difficulty I think in this context. Wheras the other Aspects I can compare to a Tactical Squad and think of how a fight might go - I can't really imagine a fight going well against either aspect in this case. (Fluff-wise of course) - both just have far too much mobility, and can dart in and out of the Marine's range. You need Land Speeders or Assault Marines to deal with them I think; then it goes back to being a bit more of an even fight. But that's kind of stepping beyond the realm of what I was originally thinking of.

(I admit though, the image of an Assault Marine dueling a Swooping Hawk mid-air would be quite impressive...)

The second question is proving a little harder apparently...

Part of the problem there is I don't think I gave enough information (what happens when I type tired, sorry for that everyone)...

So let me rephrase it a bit.

What I was meaning, was if you had a world, similar to Ultramar, that had both IG regiments tithed from it *and* a Marine chapter present. In this context, could we see it as possible for Marines and IG to work together on a regular basis?

Or am I still pushing it quite a bit?

Sorry for any confusion.

BrotherAdso
11-11-2007, 21:05
What I was meaning, was if you had a world, similar to Ultramar, that had both IG regiments tithed from it *and* a Marine chapter present. In this context, could we see it as possible for Marines and IG to work together on a regular basis?

Or am I still pushing it quite a bit?

Sorry for any confusion.

Eh, no problem. That's why its the fluff forum! In general, Marine worlds are probably exempt from tithing Guard regiments. Except in a few cases, Marines are based off of their own fleets, Deathworlds, or worlds so primitive and feudal it makes little difference otherwise. Similarly, not all worlds are required to tithe in Guard. Many fulfill their tithes entirely through wealth, forced labor, or more unusual means. This means that the Imperial Guard themselves would never fight under the same command structure as the Astartes. This is not so say that PDF forces, which are functionally identical but beauracratically different from Guard, wouldn't.

I think the most interesting way to play Guard Codex-and-Marines Codex as a combined arms force is a Chapter which has been near-decimated and relies on the PDF on its homeworld for more than just auxiliary defense now. This could work quite well if the PDF troopers were, say, the relatives of accepted Marines or were working to get their sons accepted as Aspirants.

-Adso

kikkoman
11-11-2007, 21:34
Anyway, you talk about Eldar as if they are friends of the Imperium, handling whatever they can't by sending in their own forces. Which I think is a bunch of utter tripe - if there's a chance that the Chaos rebellion will threaten their Craftworld in the future, they will probably use psychic powers to speed the Imperial Guard or Space Marines on their merry way through the Warp. And if that isn't possible, then they send down a few Warp Spiders to sneak into the Chaos Lord's lair and butcher him, before they phase out.


hmmm, you talking to me? In general, Chaos is the greater enemy. The 2nd ed story I was quoting has that happen exactly. Since they are fighting Chaos, the focus is on Chaos. The commentary on the Imperium's slow reaction speed is just a fact. It sounds like a bit of pity even "ah, poor humans, cannot even react on time...". They have fun butchering the human chaos worshippers though.

When Eldar have to fight the Imperium, they psych up and hate on 'em too.

The only race really favored is Tau, by one craftworld at least. Eldrad likes them, and numerous Ulthwe affilated pirate fleets showed up to attack Imperial vessels in Tau space.


But honestly, the Eldar sending in their forces for massive ground assault battles does not sound Eldary at all.
http://www.games-workshop.de/home/veranstaltungen/games_day/2006/bilder/eldar-titan.jpg
The Eldar produce a wide range of giant robots and super grav tanks for those sorts of engagements.




If you're a dying race, you wouldn't constantly be on the offensive.
Yeah you would be, you take every single opportunity to strike at the enemy and gain ground. Ulthwe actively manipulates warfare across the galaxy. Alaitoc's rangers are constantly in the field reporting on enemy activity. Biel Tann built a *******' fortress in the Eye of Terror. Iyanden's Yriel chased Chaos across the galaxy, and against Kraken they pummeled them as hard as they could in space combat before being hit. And Saim Hann... hmmm not so much fluff about them, but they infight like orks, hahah.

I guess I like the Biel Tann philosophy of Rebirth, the Empire will be reclaimed, lots of killing will be done. This optimism against such horrible soul eating odds makes the Grim Darkness of the far future enjoyable. You could say Ulthwe follows that path in action, basically All Eldar believe in that road.




The first and foremost tactic is to use psychic trickery to discover the future, and then manipulate the situation, by either clearing up some Warp turbulence for Imperial forces so they can deal with it, or planting psychic suggestions in a commander's mind.
Of course, which is why they can afford a constant offensive, they find every advantage, choose every battlefield.



And when they really, really have to, then they send in the cavalry to wipe up the situation. When you're on the edge of extinct and find it difficult to breed, you don't send your warriors into the middle of the battlefield.

hmmm, one thing I believe though is that... Eldar are naturally bloodthirsty.

The original RT fluff, Eldar lived in paradise craftworlds, except they grow complacent then go into the outside world as mercenaries and pirates for the simple pleasure of killing. They get the same kicks outta fighting a dead 'ard foe that orks do. In RT, Eldar were especially dangerous as you couldn't even really 'buy' them, their true reason in battle is not loot, but battle itself.

In current fluff:
They wake up their giant molten bloody handed god of murder when the whole craftworld go to war.
Some Guardians who were peaceful songwriters and potters wonder "hmmm, why DOES it feel so natural to kill and witness the death of my comrades?"

Some Farseers wonder "we say we are doing this for our future, to save our people, but maybe... maybe we just love the carnage..."

Many many many many Eldar become outcasts. Some become Rangers in service to the craftworld, many become pirates and corsairs, killing humans for fun. They aren't doing it for racial survival, to preserve their people, they purposefully seek out danger and excitement.

Dark Eldar, their existence is killing, the joy of battle and the pursuit of martial perfection. I think one of them have commented 'we're the real Eldar, we don't deny our urges, we love to fight'

Eldar aren't humans. They're more like orks with low self esteem, hahah.

Captain Stern
12-11-2007, 21:18
@Ca[ptain Styern: No offense, but GW HAVE gone on record on SEVERAL occashions as stating that none of an ][ SM characters stats are downgraded for game balance. f you look at the averages in he character creation section a SM beats a guard vetran pretty much every tme in stats.

They may well have. They would, wouldn't they? If space marines had in the game the WS and BS they have in the background, then a party of 5 or so humans (humans like an unarmoured, fat, older man running around, or trying to, with a hammer, for example) would be destroyed in no time (like they would be in the background).


Theirs also littile if any real fluff justification for a SM to have WS/BS/I values in ][ over a hundred, their skilled but it's implied in many sources that very highly skilled humans at the very peak of their abilities, using weapons they have had extremly ong term expiriance with CAN match a SM in these respects, only a tiny handful of "lets make SM's the most Uber L33t thing eva" fluff sources give them speed, or skil advantages tottally beyond a highly skilled human.

I can think of a few as well. The castellan in Storm of Iron. He went toe to toe with a chaos space marine lord. The space marine had to sacrifice his arm to win through. This is justified, of course, because in the book it says the space marine may have had the strength and the speed, but the castellan had the experience. Excuse me? The castellan had more experience than a 10,000 year old space marine lord? Nice one, Graham.

There are other examples of what you say, but they're all from the newer novels(and a few at that), and they are still very much in the minority. Read some 2nd ed background stories and tell me I'm wrong. Even 'Demi-god' Phoenix Lords didn't have WS's higher than many space marine chapter masters and captains. Some Phoenix Lords had lower ones but, of course, that's Warseer heresy.


I admit the first time I saw the stats I was a bit suprised myself, but once I started actually looking at the fluff, their are very few sources that guive SM's tottally inhuman abilities

You really need to look harder...


Weather a SM would beat an aspect warrior is a diffrent matter however. It's very nebulous, a Banshee that actually makes CC is going to tear her opponnent apart ith that power weapon of hers. .

Again, I can't think of a single example in all the background that justifies a statement such as this.

Captain Stern
12-11-2007, 21:55
We're playing a version of "make believe" here, lads. Surely it is "I believe," rather than anything else?

First off I am an Eldarphile. I don't mind admitting it. I'm also rather fond of much of the 'fluff' on the Imperium, though my least favourite aspect of it is the way that the "medieval Europe" image gets rammed down your throat and, if you don't agree with it, you're told to "sling yer 'ook." Ah well. (Of course, if you like that image, then everything is cool!)

Secondly, a big caveat. Not only do I not play the wargame, but I also see it as generating a lot of fallacious arguments in any discussion of the 'fluff.' Thus I don't tend to believe it, up to and including the idea that "higher rank = more powerful" (i.e. Marines < Sergeants < Captain, etc.). Rank can just be that: rank.

Is an Eldar Guardian "better" than an Imperial Guardsman?
This, for me, is an easy question. Physically and mentally the average Eldar is superior to the average human being -- they're faster, more agile, generally thought of as being able to process more information in a given period of time, etc. Couple that with the fact that their technology is far, far more advanced than that of the Imperium? No choice. Eldar Guardian > Imperial Guardsman.

Is an Eldar Guardian better than all Imperial Guardsman?
Another easy one, though my answer for this is "no." Once you go beyond the averages and go into the exceptions, I'd plump firmly down on the side of the Guard (or the Guard elites). While the Eldar might be quicker (etc.) and have more advanced technology, they're also "weekend warriors" or, well, the Eldar equivalent. Elite Guard tend to be battle hardened and experienced.

(In some regards this is, for me, like the difference between fighting in the martial arts. Give me the choice between a mid-range belt and a black belt, I'd go for the black-belt every time. Give me the choice between a civilian black belt and someone from the non-grunt military? I'd go with the military, even if they don't have a piece of black cloth to tie around their waist.)

Is an Eldar Guardian better than a Space Marine?
No.

Is an Eldar Guardian better than an Aspect Warrior?
No.

Is an Eldar Aspect Warrior better than a Space Marine?
Back to the hard question again. The training issue is now harder, since both seem to broadly "immerse" themselves in the art of being a warrior and a killer. What the Eldar lacks in "time per day," they make up with in general native ability (for me). The technological issue is also more marginal, with the relative degree of technology employed with the Marine not being as extreme as with the lesser troop types. Similarly, the Marine has the whole "walking tank" thing going for them, where as the aesthetic of the Aspect Warrior is, well, something else.

With all that said, I'm still going to land down on the side of the Aspect Warriors within their speciality. Again, though, this is where you get into the difference of preference and tolerance. Marines have a broad preference, but they've got a much wider tolerance. Aspect Warriors have the same preference, but a much narrower tolerance. Again, for me.

So, again, Aspect Warrior pips the post, but as soon as you make make it more than about "close combat," or "ranged combat" the Marine pips the post.

Is an Exarch better than a Space Marine?
On average? Yes. See below, though.

Is an Exarch better than a Space Marine sergeant?
And this is where I get into the problem with the wargame. Rank does not necessarily translate to ability, even though you could argue that with both Aspect Warriors and Marines that there is a cetain case of meritocracy going about.

Suffice to say that I would tend to believe than an Exarch could kick the butt of any Space Marine that he or she came acorss... except the ones that he couldn't. ;)

As to Inquisitor? Great background, but the game mechanics suck. Same thing with the wargame, though I believe the rules are more successful in their attempts at doing... well, what they attempt. On the bright side, it does allow for these discussions, even if they are ultimately futile.

Kage


If I were to condense this, then is it fair to say that you think the jump between an Eldar guardian to an Aspect Warrior is greater than the jump between an Imperial guard veteran to a space marine?

For an Eldar guardian to become an Aspect Warrior he must:

1. No longer be a weekend warrior. Let's say he's a 4-5 day a week warrior. Contrary to what a lot of you keep maintaining, an aspect warrior's life isn't totally dedicated to warfare.
2. He needs a few decades of experience training in this aspect (I'm being kind).
3. be outfitted with superior equipment but not THAT superior (that's still a shuriken pistol I see in their hand).

After considering the Eldar's superior intelligence and generally much better aptitude for combat than a human, which is pretty much all your argument can be based on, that's about it, as far as I can see.

Let's do the same thing for the space marine. Since a space marine doesn't start out as a human veteran let's start off with a space marine recruit. Again, to be kind, let's assume the recruit, who is naturally exceptionally gifted at fighting but doesn't have all that much experience, isn't as good as a typical human veteran.

1. He's put through a further gruelling, extremely harsh selection process. Depending on what you've read, this can take a year or more.
2. After this selection process, to use Space Wolf as an example, around 10-20% have survived. The recruits who have survived are even more lethal than the initial recruit. If this kind of recruit isn't as good as a veteran by then he at least very nearly is.
3.The recruit is operated upon and made into a space marine with all that this implies.
4. The recruit, by virtue of his implants and transformation, is now able to benefit from training and fighting experience moreso than any ordinary human.
5. He's given superior weapons which are, at the very least, comparable in effectiveness to an Aspect Warrior's.
6. After having his head pumped with all the knowledge there is on how to kill, he undergoes more training.
7. His life after that is warfare and, when he's not fighting, training pretty much all day. (I think 3rd ed codex space marines says something like a space marine has about an hour or two each day to rest, pray e.t.c?) Since the background supports it, the space marine will eventually have at least the experience of an aspect warrior.


I'd hate to be an aspect warrior fighting a space marine.

Chilltouch
12-11-2007, 22:17
Compare Aspect Warriors to Buddhist monks. Then compare Exarchs to those who have acheived enlightenment. Exarchs are embodiments of the Aspect that they represent. However, Aspect Warriors spend most of their time sitting there and focusing on becoming powerful warriors.

Yes, they probably do need a few decades of experience - enough for a normal human to consider himself a veteran if he survives that long as a soldier. And sometimes their equipment is stronger.

Usually Space Marines go under training until they are about 20 then they're put out and into the field, from what I have read earlier on this thread. Compared to the decades of experience an Aspect Warrior has and requires, I believe that they know a lot more about how to kill than any new Space Marine.

Aspect Warriors either fight or train day to day to day. If the Space Marine lives long enough - which I doubt, since they don't have all the time in the galaxy to train when they are needed all over it - they could equal an Aspect Warrior in skill, and becoming far more deadly than them. These are the various veterans and high-rankers.

Space Marines can probably beat Eldar if they catch them out of their speciality. Eldar can probably be Space Marines if they catch them in their speciality.

Bretonnian Lord
12-11-2007, 23:33
In my opinion, if Eldar Aspect Warriors are fighting in their specialized role, they can take down the marine. Otherwise, the Marine will win simply because he's got power armor, toughness 4, and relentlessness.

I honestly don't think Space Marines are uber warriors of doom who can take on anything in the galaxy and win. I mean, they've got experience, power armor, implants, and skill- but in the end, they're still technically *human*. Prone to the same weaknesses of a human (such as falling for the lure of chaos, self-pride and arrogance, mistakes we all make). Sure, they're superior on the battlefield to many enemies- but you have to go by the law of "somewhere out there, someone or something is better than me." Maybe marines of the first founding would be good enough to take on anything in the galaxy and win. But not these marines.

Captain Stern
12-11-2007, 23:38
According to the short story Deathwing the only enemy 'troops' space marines have to genuinely worry about are chaos space marines and genestealers.

UPDATE:



Sure, they're superior on the battlefield to many enemies- but you have to go by the law of "somewhere out there, someone or something is better than me." Maybe marines of the first founding would be good enough to take on anything in the galaxy and win. But not these marines.

So who's better than Aspect Warriors? No one? Gee.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think any space marine could beat every single kind of combatant in the universe one on one. That would be silly. A space marine would be no match for, say, a fully manifested Greater Daemon (to use an extreme example). All I'm saying is that space marines are by far the best 'troopers' or soldiers out there, in any situation. This doesn't include for example individuals such as Exarchs and Officio Assassinorum Assassins who'd beat the basic space marine in any kind of encounter (by the way, I'm not saying those two are equally deadly, because they're obviously not). A tyranid warrior would in all likelyhood beat him in melee. But none of those are 'troops', if you know what I mean. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Kage2020
13-11-2007, 01:57
What happens when one fanboi argues against another? Yes, it's like the GW hobbyist version of Zeno's Paradox. ;)


If I were to condense this...
It's hard to condense because it's actually a series of relative, subjective statements. There are no real absolutes, merely a statement of personal interpretation.


1. No longer be a weekend warrior. Let's say he's a 4-5 day a week warrior. Contrary to what a lot of you keep maintaining, an aspect warrior's life isn't totally dedicated to warfare.
The whole "you" obviously wasn't directed at me, since I have consistently and repeatedly argued that an Aspect Warrior - or any other member of the Eldar Path - is not "totally" dedicated to their Way/Path. Well, mostly. They certainly have "free time," but that depends on how you measure it. Yes, they're a pool of artists and artisans, but the nature of it has never really been mentioned. It's just a knee-jerk reaction of many that it does not focus around their Path/Way. That is, most people seem to assume that such poetry (or whatever) focuses upon non-martial activities, whereas I take the other stance.


2. He needs a few decades of experience training in this aspect (I'm being kind).
Personally I'd put the "average" maximum time that an individual dedicates to a single Way to be about two centuries, but there we go. It can be less and it can be more, but that's why I consider it an average value. Maybe a shade lower by a few decades...


3. be outfitted with superior equipment but not THAT superior (that's still a shuriken pistol I see in their hand).
Unfortunately, that's wargame stuff which I consider about as useful as the relative post that I made (and perhaps less so).


After considering the Eldar's superior intelligence and generally much better aptitude for combat than a human, which is pretty much all your argument can be based on, that's about it, as far as I can see.
Yet using your argument, surely, I can say that the Imperium is barely beyond the late nineteenth century in terms of its military science. You could argue that the Eldar model is therefore more advanced...

Of course, and once again, the wargame isn't that useful even if sometimes it - and the very grainy abstractions that it makes - are all we have to go on. Well, other than our imaginations, of course. :D

I think that it's also useful to remember that, more than likely, the Eldar society and their understanding of the physical and spiritual universe is far, far more advanced than that of the Imperium. Their military science is likely leaps and bounds ahead of anything that the Imperium has to offer... Of course, the problem is you then get into Theming, e.g. the Eldar are a "dying race," the whole "light armour" thing, etc., etc.

And from there? The downward cycle that is ultimately Wargame Balance.


...who is naturally exceptionally gifted at fighting...
Yet they're still operating on a level below that of the Eldar... relatively.


If this kind of recruit isn't as good as a veteran by then he at least very nearly is.
It's too hard to judge. Much of the training seems to be orientated around increasing the stamina, strength and "comradeship" of the Marines. That just makes them fitter and stronger, not better soldier/warriors, though what you do have will be the cream of the crop, yes.


The recruit is operated upon and made into a space marine with all that this implies.
Yes, they're stronger and have lots of organs, many of which are completely superfluous on the battlefield.


4. The recruit, by virtue of his implants and transformation, is now able to benefit from training and fighting experience moreso than any ordinary human.
Well, the "power" of that training is going to be revved up a notch, definitely, but their organs do not make them any more or less able to deal with "fighting experience."


5. He's given superior weapons which are, at the very least, comparable in effectiveness to an Aspect Warrior's.
Wargame Balance. 40k does not tend to deal with the concept of technology very well, if at all. Depending on how you model these things, the Eldar-Imperium technological divide can be argued to be similar to the difference between the modern world (real, first world nation) armed forces going up against troops from the medieval period. The divide against the Marines I would consider less, but even then it puts them back into the mid-nineteenth century (how appropriate given the way that the 40k game is portrayed!).

Theme and Wargame Balance are ever important, though.


6. After having his head pumped with all the knowledge there is on how to kill, he undergoes more training.
Much of which is figuring out how to balance the knowledge with the training. Of course, we also have so little knowledge about Aspect Warrior training protocols. That is, of course, completely unsurprising.

In comparing one "superhuman" to another "superhuman," I'm sure that many people could provide examples of both, whether it's Banshee's perceiving battle field events and moving so quickly that they are able to knock bolter shells (which are slow moving, but still darned quick) out of the air.

Remember, though, that 40k is once agained Themed, subjected to Wargame Balance and, ultimately, just a fantasy wargame by another name. With guns 'n' stuff.


7. His life after that is warfare and, when he's not fighting, training pretty much all day. (I think 3rd ed codex space marines says something like a space marine has about an hour or two each day to rest, pray e.t.c?)
Fifteen minutes of free time, IIRC, and even that was meant to be spent in contemplating the responsibility of their position and their duty to the Emperor.

Which sounds great, but doesn't seem to stack up as the "average" experience of a Marine, at least based on the other examples that we are given.

Again, though, remember that I was merely expressing an opinion and how I interpret it. Once you move away from the wargame the major advantages of the Space Marines tend to decrease, believe it or not. In what is a fantasy wargame, considerations such as "brute strength" might work but if you plonk that down into a non-40k abstraction of the 40k universe you just end up with a muscle-bound goliath who gets shot.

While I say, with hand on heart, that I'm an Eldarphile - or Eldar fanboi - that doesn't mean that I don't like the Marines. Indeed, Marines and Eldar were amusingly the two things that I first converted over to RPG! (In which Marines are horrendously powerful, but it still doesn't necessarily make them superior to an Eldar Aspect Warrior. The gap between a Marine and an Aspect Warrior, in overall "combat ability" is just less than, say, an Aspect Warrior and a Guardsman or a Space Marine and a Guardsman.) :D

Zeno's paradox, remember...

Kage

Chilltouch
13-11-2007, 05:52
Even if Deathwing is an official source, it's written by an author who has their own view of things and also, entitling it "Deathwing" proclaims that the main characters are Space Marines.

And if you think that when we say Aspect Warriors are greater than Space Marines, you're accusing us of thinking they are the greatest soldiers in the 40K Universe? That's hardly fair. Besides, genestealers also depend on the situation due to the fact that they are dedicated to close combat. If a Space Marine can take out a Howling Banshee, it can take out a Genestealer with just as much effort.

I'm not even saying Aspect Warriors are better - if they catch each other in certain situations, one or the other will probably die. But I gotta admit - due to the vaster minds and greater initiatives of the Eldar, it's likely that they'll put themselves in a situation where it goes their way if they can.

kikkoman
13-11-2007, 06:11
such as Exarchs and Officio Assassinorum Assassins who'd beat the basic space marine in any kind of encounter (by the way, I'm not saying those two are equally deadly, because they're obviously not)

so what do you think is deadlier

Argastes
13-11-2007, 06:19
1. No longer be a weekend warrior. Let's say he's a 4-5 day a week warrior. Contrary to what a lot of you keep maintaining, an aspect warrior's life isn't totally dedicated to warfare.

Umm... fluff says otherwise. The fluff says that aspect warriors are "wholly" (the fluff's word, not mine) dedicated to perfection in a given aspect of warfare, and they attain levels of perfection which are beyond the understanding of human beings.

Not that I'm an Eldar fanboi who wants to see them painted as better than Marines; just the opposite, in fact. I play Marines, I love Marines, I'm a Marine fanboi if I'm any kind of fanboi, and I find the Eldar generally uninteresting. But it's definitely made clear that aspect warriors ARE totally dedicated to warfare. "4-5 day a week warrior"? No way.

Kage2020
13-11-2007, 12:07
Balanced against that, Argastes, is the 'fluff' which also states that the Aspect Warriors provide a "pool" of artisans, poets, etc. That's one of the reasons that I mentioned the "free time" aspecting, above. Thus, while they do not spend every second of their life physically training their abilities, even when they are creating poems they are not necessarily about flowers, love, birds flying over the field... Unless, that is, the flowers counterpoint the battlefield, or it is the love of the dance of the sword, or the carrion birds flying over the bloated corpses of your enemy.

Much as they train their bodies beyond what an Eldar is already capable of - becoming, in essence, masters at their discipline - they also train their mind and their art. That's one point that I think is downplayed: art. It would seem a reasonable interpretation from the scant 'fluff' that we have that the Eldar Aspect Warrior is far more concerned with the perfection of their form than, say, a Marine is. We can see some of that, perhaps, in Captain Stern's reply above. The Marine is given everything, and there is an ingrained sense of superiority (admittedly all of the Eldar have that! ;)). Yet comparing the two, I don't get the same sense of 'perfection' in the Marine 'fluff.' Rather it seems far more "rote learning" -- "If A happens, then adopt stance B, chanting affirmation F." Functionally, repetition is going to create an ingrained response but there is no real sense of flow. I'm sure that the martial artists amongst us will recognise the difference that I'm having trouble articulating, i.e. between the rote practitioner who follows through the moves and can even get darned quick, and the true martial artist that flows through the moves. Hmmn... I guess it comes down to perception. A Marine, for me, is like a train in that it is powerful, made up of specific sections that, with experience, seem to move with speed and can seem unstoppable. The Aspect Warrior, on the other hand, is more akin to the river that moves around boulders and other rocks in its path.

Aye, and despite my somewhat negative references to Image, I realise that the above is almost entirely constructed of Image and preference, perhaps dabbled with a bit of Theme. Ah, the hypocrisy. ;)

That is, at least, how I personally negotiate the 'fluff' which states, as you say Argastes, that the Aspect Warrior is "totally" dedicated to warfare, and the earlier 'fluff' which stated that they did have "free time." And, of course, one also has to remember that Marines aren't quite that dedicated either, despite the information in the 3e Codex and perhaps because of it... :D

Kage

kikkoman
13-11-2007, 14:27
don't space marines have free time too?

Blood Angels comb hair and pretty themselves up.

Space Wolves do each other's braids and go drinking

Salamanders go around doing community service.

thedreadpirate
13-11-2007, 15:18
I think it comes down to a classic mis-match/boats-crossing-in-the-night situation. The two can be compared, but nothing really sticks, and the result is that we can argue, but cannot know. I compare this to the classic european knight vs japanese samurai comparison.

The knight has really heavy armor and weapons. He can't move fast. He can't see very well. He also can't be taken down effectively by the majority of weapons. He is obsessed with chivalry and war.

The samurai has medium-to-'light' armor and weapons. He moves fast, with alot of agility. He can see better than the knight, but he still has slightly limited vision. He is so much better at most forms of combat that while he can be taken down by a majority of weapons, most opponents won't live long enough to do it. He is obsessed with bushido and war.

The general consensus, is that the samurai's weapons are mostly ineffective against the knight, because of the armor, and the knight just isn't fast enough to hit the samurai. Its a mismatch not because somebody wins hands down, but because nobody wins.

Similarly, I think the aspect warriors vs marines is either a mismatch, or situational. If a dark reaper stood right next to a space marine, the space marine is gonna beat the excrement out of him. If the marine is a sergeant with a powerweapon, even more so. If you gave the reaper his launcher and started them across an open field, the marine would be paste, power armor or no. On the other side, a marine with a heavy bolter could just mow down dire avengers like there was no tomorrow. Assault marines would cut down fire dragons in close combat, but warp spiders could hit them with masses of str6 fire, and keep out of range, and/or use hit and run.

In general, the aspect warrior is better at what it was designed to do, like take out tanks, or marines, or hoards. However, the marine is better at every other possible situation. So to end with what I started with, and reiterated several times, it is a mismatch.

-TDP

elvinltl
16-11-2007, 00:51
Do you people realise Space Marines are good at every fachet of the game? Read the codex and you will see thier army has everything to offer ranging from speed, durability, CC prowess and stealth. Problem is you pay a premium for them.

As for aspect warriors, they always remind me of some shows (Anime shows like D-Gray Man, Claymore) where each aspects have some really special abilties that makes people go "OMG... OOO AHH!" and suffer in other areas such as strength or durability. As for SM, i would classify them as Jack of all Trades master of none. They are versatile units that live to fight in most circumstances. As for Eldar, i supposed when they battle they take it as an opportunity to flaunt their exceptional skills and prowess.

Expect each Exarch to have their personal signature moves and abilities...

mistformsquirrel
16-11-2007, 01:04
Thanks again all. Closing this thread down to avoid idiot raid-spam; everyone who participated, it is appreciated.