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Profiron
09-11-2007, 20:07
I know I'm in the minority here. GW is obviously shoving SM's down our throat because most of us go for it, and to get away from your bread and butter is commercial suicide. But I'm wondering how many Ork/Eldar/DE/Tau/Necron/Tyrannid players out there are sick of having to wait for army updates because GW decided that the 'green space marines' needed a codex update?

Not to mention Chaos, which are pretty much evil space marines. Yeah you could say the same thing about DE being evil Eldar but the thing is 75% of the people out there don't play Eldar. I just wish that they would expand some of the more neglected armies out and am bewildered that there are so many individual codexes and units for one single army.

And if you absolutely love SM's please stay out of the thread, we already know you're out there.

Colonel Dixon
09-11-2007, 20:17
I agree, but I'm afraid there's no changing it. The Space Marine is the enigmatic symbol of 40k. All the other races are cool, but none of them sum up the 41st millenium as well as a man so surgically augmented he's scarcely a man anymore covered from head to toe in an anatomically impossible suit of super armor weilding a weapon that blows things up from the inside out. A space Ork just doesn't send them same message of "in the vast darkness of the far future there is only war"

DarkSoldier
09-11-2007, 20:20
GW pushes Space Marines at every opportunity, while the game's canon implies that the Adeptus Astartes numbers no more than 1 million men at arms (1,000 Chapters x 1,000 men at arms per chapter), a fraction of the entire population of any inhabited planet in the Imperium.

They burned me (and every other Chaos player) when they decided to strip what truly says "Chaos" from the new CSM codex (cultists, daemons, and the Traitor Legions) to make them Emo Marines.

"Daddy's secret police don't like us! We're going to run away from home!"

I'd prefer to see more Imperial Guard armies than Space Marines; they're the true defenders of Mankind.

brettz123
09-11-2007, 20:21
I know I'm in the minority here. GW is obviously shoving SM's down our throat because most of us go for it, and to get away from your bread and butter is commercial suicide. But I'm wondering how many Ork/Eldar/DE/Tau/Necron/Tyrannid players out there are sick of having to wait for army updates because GW decided that the 'green space marines' needed a codex update?

Not to mention Chaos, which are pretty much evil space marines. Yeah you could say the same thing about DE being evil Eldar but the thing is 75% of the people out there don't play Eldar. I just wish that they would expand some of the more neglected armies out and am bewildered that there are so many individual codexes and units for one single army.

And if you absolutely love SM's please stay out of the thread, we already know you're out there.

Well as you said space monkies make up a HUGE part of the sales that GW gets so no getting away from it. But no I love marines so I think we should get more.

Kahadras
09-11-2007, 20:27
No, not really. It's always going to be a part of 40K so why bother getting worked up about it. Primarily they're the hook to get people into the hobby. I've found that although Marines are most commonly the army that people start with they quickly move onto another codex once they've been playing a while.

At my club I'm one of the only players whose been gaming for any length of time and still uses a 'Marine' army (granted it's Space Wolves).

Kahadras

sabreu
09-11-2007, 20:28
Bah, that's a bunch of crock. The reasons space marines sell so well are;

1.) They are the most supported and have models for all but 1 of their unit types (drop pods).

2.) They are constantly being reinforced as the premier starter and veteran army (to begin with and go to tournies with).

3.) They are constantly updated and get alot of variation ruleswise for different color schemes while other races wait nearly a decade for a revamp.

No one wants to want a long time to get new minis and new rules, so almost by default yokes get drafted into the Space Marine Korp (myself too, once, I admit!) But Seriously though, I don't mind so much but it is a bit tedious. I just wish they made one, big juicy codex with all the different legions and chapter rules rolled up in one singular codex. Would cut down on all the hating as far as I know!

SquishySquig
09-11-2007, 20:29
:skull: As an ork player, I have to say I've never felt like Space Marines were rammed down my throat or anything. I understand that in some areas it's pretty much just marine vs marine games and I feel for them, but In my area no one plays loyalist marines (though we do have 1 dedicated Chaos player and a player who has a Chaos army as well as a sisters army and another that has a Chaos as well as a Necron Army). But either way if people choose to buy and play space marines over other armies well that's their choice. I like to think that most people pick armies because they think they look cool and would be fun to play and if more people want to pick spacemarines I sure am not going to stop them. Some would say that the reason spacemarines are sold more is do to shelf space and advertising, well maybe, but I bought orks and they didn't dominate the shelf space or advertising, they just looked cool. I think most gamers are like me. They just buy what they think looks cool and go from there. :skull:

Eldarion
09-11-2007, 20:30
Spacemarines and Chaos bring the money home to GW.

Profiron
09-11-2007, 20:31
Yeah I have no problem with IG's, they don't get a totally different codex just because you decide to put a Russian fur hat on them.

As for Chaos, I like the 'rebel humans tempted and aided by extradimensional entities' angle, but I don't like how these aliens look exactly like the same demons I've been fighting since the old days of D&D. That's just an opinion for another thread though, but back on topic I can live with 'evil marines' as long as each customized little army doesn't get its own book and units just because you paint them different.

Brettz, stop trolling.

sabreu
09-11-2007, 20:32
Spacemarines and Chaos bring the money home to GW.

It won't forever. Nothing lasts forever!

DavicusPrime
09-11-2007, 20:38
I started with Marines and have always liked them. I continue to consider them my main army but I like more variety. You gotta have something to fight against and the fact that other armies have not been supported at nearly the same level has been distressing for me.

My second army is Orks and have seen them as a hobbyist army due to the vast amount of conversion required. Now that they are actually updating them and starting to make worthy models I'm very pleased. If they do them justice they'll become a more common sight on the table and there's no reason not to like that.

If they can get the other armies up to speed I'll not have much to complain about except for the lack of time and cash to pursue the hobby as I'd like.

-DavicusPrime

Xenocidal Maniac
09-11-2007, 20:58
Anyone sick of Space Marine oversaturation?

Maybe. But I am definitely sick of people discussing it on the internet all the time.

This is the 40 millionth thread on the topic...

sabreu
09-11-2007, 21:00
You know, if people never repeated themselves or brought old questions up, there wouldn't be much to talk about. Seriously, if people never asked the same question over and over again, we wouldn't have organized religion you know?

Ozendorph
09-11-2007, 21:08
Bash the marines. Bash 'em good and plenty. Raaaaargh.

Torga_DW
09-11-2007, 21:12
We all need a fat kid to pick on from time to time, and the marines are it. =)

Amnar
09-11-2007, 21:29
We all need a fat kid to pick on from time to time, and the marines are it. =)

They're big boned, get it right

spikyjames
09-11-2007, 22:11
As other's have said Space Marines are 40k, they are what best symbolises the game and the universe.

they are GW's poster boy's.

also, as far as game play goes they are the most forgiving and versatile army to use so there will always be a need for more diversity.

Marines are not just one single army, again as others have said potientially there could be 1000 different codex's as each chapter has there own small diversities.

james

brettz123
09-11-2007, 22:24
Yeah I have no problem with IG's, they don't get a totally different codex just because you decide to put a Russian fur hat on them.

As for Chaos, I like the 'rebel humans tempted and aided by extradimensional entities' angle, but I don't like how these aliens look exactly like the same demons I've been fighting since the old days of D&D. That's just an opinion for another thread though, but back on topic I can live with 'evil marines' as long as each customized little army doesn't get its own book and units just because you paint them different.

Brettz, stop trolling.

Stating that I want more space marines is not trolling. I actually want more. I have three painted Space Marine armies and want more.

Torga_DW
09-11-2007, 22:27
Good for you. Its like when ppl say: you should be happy that a new marine codex has been released. Well i'm about as happy as when they release a new eldar codex or ork codex. Yes thats nice, but it has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the particular army i play. I play blood angels, and until they get updates, i don't give a flying ******* what another army gets, even if they wear power armour too.

Imperialis_Dominatus
09-11-2007, 22:39
You know, if people never repeated themselves or brought old questions up, there wouldn't be much to talk about. Seriously, if people never asked the same question over and over again, we wouldn't have organized religion you know?

Well, I see 'new' topics all the time on Warseer, so I feel that there's more to discuss than the obvious...


Stating that I want more space marines is not trolling. I actually want more. I have three painted Space Marine armies and want more.

Buy models, write fluff, and make more. Have fun.

brettz123
09-11-2007, 22:58
Well, I see 'new' topics all the time on Warseer, so I feel that there's more to discuss than the obvious...



Buy models, write fluff, and make more. Have fun.


Well no writing fluff for me but I am starting a Dark Angels list so thanks :D

Wyatt
09-11-2007, 23:08
A somewhat strange analogy, but it's like Channel 4. When Big Brother season starts, that's all you ever see. (Big Brother, BBLB, Big Bro's Big Mouth, Big Bro on the Couch, and so on). Because that's what sells.

There's a reason why Battle for Macragge is SM and 'Nids, and why the giant statue outside Warhammer World (and inside too) is a Space Marine and not a Kroot. It's become associated with them as their main point, and as it sells, why should they want to change it? Channel 4 won't stop showing Big Brother just because it's on too much.

==Me==
09-11-2007, 23:19
Eldar player says what?:D

No, I don't feel marines are shoved down people's throats. I play marines, I started marines, which I picked because I liked the models and the fluff. Hell, I want at least 5 different marine armies.

But I'm also starting Orks, have a couple Kroot Mercs lying around, and am considering Eldar, DE, and a couple IG armies.

Marines are so popular because they are fairly straightforward and forgiving, have great fluff in large amounts, are relatively cheap $$-wise, and can be configured to almost any playstyle thanks to traits and chapter-specific Codeces. They make up a significant portion of GW's income, moreso than all of Fantasy supposedly, so of course they'll get the love.

Marines FTW

Wyatt
09-11-2007, 23:22
They are extremely cheap compared to their competitors.

For example, a legal SW army can be made with two boxes of grey hunters and one wolf lord (what... 40-ish?)

A legal IG army requires (min) 2 boxes of shock troops, 2 officers, and a Chimera (to do it the cheap way). That be around 60, if not more.

Grim_Reaper46
10-11-2007, 00:03
I play Dark Angels and Ravenwing.I've been playing space marines for a while,mainly because they are the defenders of mankind and Terra(Earth) and their super humans.Which I think is pretty kool.I like the fact that I'm a defender of my own planet,and race.

Spawn033184
10-11-2007, 00:16
Yes they are the most versatile and the most fun to play my buddy let me try his dark eldar didnt like em, eldar didnt like them, tau didnt like them and i'm not a horde army fan so i wouldnt like orks, nids, or armies that fall in that category.

But the fun thing is with space marines you can make your own chapter, creating your own chapter masters, and so on and so on hell there are even 2 primarchs never mentioned so you can always create your own one of those two even though people will look down there nose at you.

But like a guy told me Rule # 1 You spent your money on some expensive plastic so do what ever you want and have fun with it.

Hicks
10-11-2007, 00:22
They are extremely cheap compared to their competitors.

For example, a legal SW army can be made with two boxes of grey hunters and one wolf lord (what... 40-ish?)

A legal IG army requires (min) 2 boxes of shock troops, 2 officers, and a Chimera (to do it the cheap way). That be around 60, if not more.

Too true. I'm building a 100% plastic SM army at the moment. Even the HQ choices can all be made in plastic and they don't look like troopers with a fancier weapon either. Back when I started (some 10 years ago) I wanted to do a Catachan army... well I quickly found out that marines would me much cheaper so I went with Flesh Tearers instead.

CommissarKlink
10-11-2007, 00:33
Every now and then, I get ahold of some marines and tell myself I'm going to make up a new chapter.

Then my orks find them, chop them up, and loot the bitz.

c'est la vie.

Spawn033184
10-11-2007, 00:44
I started as space wolves now i'm starting a Chaos Chapter called the Crimson Xiphos when i'm done with them zomg there gonna be sick the only bitz orks will be collectin are the teeth they get knocked out of there mouths.

I am still workin on there history, i have a solid cholor scheme set up for them which i like but Icons i'm still workin on but other then that i think there gonna be sick.

Profiron
10-11-2007, 00:47
Necrons could have lots of fluff and a wider potential for customization. Necrons could have lots of unique units and kinds of tactics. But they don't because GW isn't making them the focus of the game.

And yes I'm well aware that smurfs make GW lots of money. But is that because of their merits, or is it simply because of the marketing, ease of use and constant updates? Maybe if we had a codex for each Ork clan, and had most of the shelf space devoted to over-statted choppaz and killacanz it would be a different story.

Maybe not, but it's still an interesting question.

Ianos
10-11-2007, 00:54
Well the sure thing is that marines are not simply overplayed just because they are iconic and cool/fluffy. Marketing, flavor versatility/customization and above all rules, play the most important role in the marine preference of the customer base.

All we need is to wait and see what will happen when all codices have been updated. My bet; toned down MEQs get less sales and toned up non-MEQ get more...

OnlyInDeath
10-11-2007, 01:02
Honestly, the fact that every male in the world who plays GW will instantly become sexually aroused at the sight of a Space Marine only makes it that much more fun when I drop a Battlecannon pie plate and take out six of them at a time.

Honestly, what I hate more than Marine oversaturation is people who go from playing Marines to Imperial Guard as though it something you can just "try out." The Guard is for life bitches.

And then they automatically assume Guard is weak because you can't rush aimlessly into combat and win on the virtue of 3+ save.

Playing Imperial Guard is a whole separate mindset from playing Space Marines.

Spleendokta
10-11-2007, 01:25
Dont buy the White Dwarf catalogue anymore... then you dont have to worry about seeing marines thrown in your face. I've been WD free now for about 2 years and I can now taste my food again and know longer trouble breathing.

Sir_Turalyon
10-11-2007, 01:43
I used to be sick of Space Marines... got better, partialy thanks to realising it's part of 40k imaginary that GW really owns. They cannot be copied by other companies, like non-GW elves, dwarves, orcs or knights, often of better quality, used by WFB players. Some company may try to sell their own futuristic grunts, elves in space, manga-like aliens, Aliens-inspired bugs or green aliens with axes to 40k players, but looks of marine armour are so specific that competitors cannot make passable substitutes without copyright breach. They are unique GW product - no wonder they are made into icon of 40k.

SwordJon
10-11-2007, 01:46
Space Marines wouldn't be so iconic if they'd just start doing awesome artwork of Steel Legion fighting Orks or Cadians fighting traitor guardsmen and printing those on everything...

Nugottlich
10-11-2007, 01:55
You know, if people never repeated themselves or brought old questions up, there wouldn't be much to talk about. I disagree. We'd still have more to talk about than we'd have minutes on this Earth to talk about them. Some people are just too lazy for the perspiration that makes up 9/10s of creativity. It's only a game, after all...

On topic, I'm not sick of Space Marine over-saturation. After all I can just ignore it. Mind you I think it would be interesting to see what would happen if GW was able to expand their coverage of other ranges, and give them similar treatment to the Space Marine range.

Edit:

Honestly, the fact that every male in the world who plays GW will instantly become sexually aroused at the sight of a Space Marine only makes it that much more fun when I drop a Battlecannon pie plate and take out six of them at a time. Quoted for hawtness! Now to get back to writing Space Wolf on Dark Angel slash fiction!

Spawn033184
10-11-2007, 02:01
Wow you guys make Space Marines sound like a a Bible Thumper who is tryin to shove religious properties down your throat.

Nugottlich
10-11-2007, 02:02
Because, you know, no Space Marine would ever dream of shoving his religion down someone's throat.

OnlyInDeath
10-11-2007, 02:08
Because, you know, no Space Marine would ever dream of shoving his religion down someone's throat.

They really don't though - you either already are a member of the Imperial Religion, or your very soon going to die, if you are around angry Space Marines. The Ecclesiarchy doesn't bother converting.

Spawn033184
10-11-2007, 02:11
Yes space marines dont care about who what or why they kill someone they know they were given an order to do it and they do it, they dont bother converting like the previous statment says you either are with them or against them and if there around pray to god your with them.

If they kill you your lableded as a heretic, traitor, a daemon or just a piece of trash that doesnt follow the ways of the emperor.

Blarp
10-11-2007, 02:16
I totally agree. I mean, I'm basically a space marine player without a landspeeder now with the new chaos codex (down with the new codex!), but I think the Space ****** are aggrandized overplayed.

Vostroyan
10-11-2007, 02:17
i wish gw expanded on daemon hunters tau orks elder dark elder tryanids space marines get aton of attention

Spawn033184
10-11-2007, 02:21
First off there is no need for name calling, which by callin Space Marines space ****** kinda irritates me second Space Marines are alot of fun to play compared to other armies.

I have a space wolves army and im workin on my own chaos chapter with my own personal chapter master for them and when i'm done i'll probably make another army of SM's because each chapter has it's own versatility and making a new chapter with scheme and there own heroes is fun and on top of that they look hella cool.

Nugottlich
10-11-2007, 02:22
They really don't though - you either already are a member of the Imperial Religion, or your very soon going to die, if you are around angry Space Marines. The Ecclesiarchy doesn't bother converting. Space Marines aren't members of the Ecclesiarchy though. And shoving a chainsword down the throat of anyone who's a mutant, or a heretic, or a traitor, or an alien, or a daemon, or an apostate, or an iconoclast, or a jaywalker seems like the imposition of a belief-system to me.

Spawn033184
10-11-2007, 02:24
Wow Nugottlich i couldnt of said that any better. :)

brettz123
10-11-2007, 02:38
Necrons could have lots of fluff and a wider potential for customization. Necrons could have lots of unique units and kinds of tactics. But they don't because GW isn't making them the focus of the game.

And yes I'm well aware that smurfs make GW lots of money. But is that because of their merits, or is it simply because of the marketing, ease of use and constant updates? Maybe if we had a codex for each Ork clan, and had most of the shelf space devoted to over-statted choppaz and killacanz it would be a different story.

Maybe not, but it's still an interesting question.

Necrons are fairly boring and even failed as army once (way back in the day). Marines have been top dog since the Rogue Trader days when it was really just them and Orks. GW even tried giving Ork Klans a go back then too. From what I remember they had something like 3 different hard cover books that were around 250 pages each. Marines just sell better. Most people start with them and a lot stay with them.

I think they push them because they sell not the other way around. They have pushed a lot of other stuff at one point or another but it never comes close to the level of marines. From what I remember reading somewhere marines outsell everything else combined. Anyone know if that is actually true?

Shinguuji
10-11-2007, 02:42
sigh. even after other races get boosted above SM, people still whine and whine, they stopped complaining about the assault cannon, and now they're complaining about them being popular when their popularity is decreasing

why not bash eldar players, who are the 2nd most populous group anyway, with all their fancy new models and falcon saturated 'cheese' armies

I for one, is completely sick of topics like this, people will whine and whine till GW pulls space marines out, and even then, they'll still whine 'why is space marines always in the fluff?'

Curufew
10-11-2007, 03:22
Yea I'm tired of seeing Space Marine armies ( Both flavours)...I have a gaming group and all of them plays either Chaos or Space Marine. It's so damn boring to play against them all the time. This resulted in me going to play Fantasy and find that 40K is so shallow

Lord Raneus
10-11-2007, 04:23
I actually don't mind space marines. My gaming group is saturated with Necrons and Tau, and it gets really annoying after a while. I wish the DE player would still come, for some variety.

And no matter how much you say you hate Marines, you know deep down inside you've got to love them. Who wouldn't? ;)

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
10-11-2007, 04:33
i like space marines but i want to see more orks and imperial guard!

[My LatD is in progress :) so i'll have non-power armoured army also]

mistformsquirrel
10-11-2007, 08:51
I'm kinda in a middleground myself on the subject...

On the one hand - I think we have too many codices. Its not that I think its necessarily silly - I love that Black Templars and Dark Angels have substantial differences; but IG regiments are at least as diverse if not more so, and don't get separate books...

My stance is pretty much that they could make one "Big" Space Marine codex; then one Space Wolves codex. The Big Codex could have an expanded Traits system, including traits for being a successor to a specific First Founding chapter.

So for example, if you took the "Blood of Sanguinus" Trait, you'd be able to field Death Company.

Things like Ravenwing and Deathwing could be traits as well; Combat Squads would be default in the codex *but* it could be overridden with a trait, etc...

I love my Marines, I really do; but I do think its just a bit unfair we get so many codices comparatively, even if I understand why its so.

That said, I have no anger or real upset about it - its just one of those "eh, I think it'd be better this way.." things. I'm not worked up about it in the least.

xibo
10-11-2007, 09:37
Could someone please state me why SM are representing 40k fluff? I mean Urines are top armed top armoured elite of the elite warriors of allways winning doom, while the imperium of man is a corrupt, un-developing fascistic organization that in end of M40 is becoming defeated from both within and without. Cadia or Armageddon might be nice examples where the imperium was victorious but they payed a horrendous price for their victory.
One can argue with Solar Macharius conquering half the galaxy in just 7 years thanks to the emperors guidance, but Macharius was a 'normal' human and no marine, while second got beaten up well ( IG too, though ) in the damocles crusade by some bunch of xeno scum. And now lets mention that nearly 100 space marine chapters needed 70 years to recapture MOST of the territories of Macharius renegade subordinaries... so glory boys are not so glorious, huh?
Of cause Macharius disappeared with the 4rth edition...

Furthermore Urines lost their 'psychotic' part...

They really don't though - you either already are a member of the Imperial Religion, or your very soon going to die, if you are around angry Space Marines. The Ecclesiarchy doesn't bother converting.

Being member of the ecclesiarchy doesnt protect you from angry marines. Even being member of the imperial guard regiment that helped angry marines fighting somewhere doesnt protect you if angry marines get bloodlust.
In the end Blood Angles are no other than World Eaters with less spikes, less honour ( you know - thats what Khorne originally stood for ) and a more mutant primarch.

hiveminion
10-11-2007, 11:35
Maybe if we had a codex for each Ork clan, and had most of the shelf space devoted to over-statted choppaz and killacanz it would be a different story.


Well, first off, IF it worked that way and Orks had been GW's poster boy, this thread would have been titled 'Anyone sick of Ork oversaturation?' and people'd complain about Orks being everywhere and Marines getting sorely neglected.:rolleyes:

Second, it doesn't work that way, because Space Marines simply appeal to people. Well most people. Frankly, they just rock. As has been stated in this thread before people like, and can identify themselves with, the idea of superhuman warriors defending humanity against overwhelming odds. This appeal is the first and foremost reason why Space Marines are so immensely popular and GW SHOULD exploit this to make money.

However, I'm sure this point has been raised an equal amount of times an 'I hate Space Marines' thread has been started, ie millions of times, and I'm also pretty sure it will AGAIN be ignored. Somehow some people just feel the need to hate a certain range of plastic toy soldier. Every time I realise that, I don't know whether to laugh, or cry...

Grazzy
10-11-2007, 12:17
Marines sell. It's that simple really. What 12 year old doesnt want an army of elite superhuman killing machines!

the anti santa
10-11-2007, 13:14
Another thing to remember about why marines are so popular is that they look really good on the table.

They have bright colour schemes and a relatively small number of models so are one of the easiest armies to paint up. Spraying Blood Angels bright red and then painting in some details looks pretty good from a distance.

With their wide array of plastics they are easy to convert as well, some head or weapon swaps and they look really nice.

Some of the best armies and models I've seen have been space marines, it takes real commitment to convert a whole guard, nid or Orc army and even more to make them look good and unique.

Captain Micha
10-11-2007, 13:33
Not another thread... you guys already know my take on this. If gw pushed any other race like they did marines, then that race would be in the marines place.

Anti santa... Man thats so not true.. 30 minutes a model for Ig (just painting on the details they gave me to work with and the camo pattern I went for) and they look quite unique (and I'm not finished yet.. didn't do the faces like I wanted) When I paint my guard I better have an entire day to work with... cause I usually blow 7-9 hours on them at a time. for just 20 troops *L*

My Necrons are alot quicker to paint up and look great (though making the shade of paint I used for them was hard), so were my Tau. And Marines. Marines are easy to paint though I will completely agree there.

That being said I still and will always believe that -any- army would sell that much if Gw pushed them that hard.

AgeOfEgos
10-11-2007, 14:01
It's a Space Marine world baby and all you Xenos just happen to live in it.


That being said, it's simplistic to say any other army given Marine support would be equally as popular. Many players, when they first start, need something they can connect with to draw them in. For example, if 40K was called "BUGWARS" and consisted mainly of different styles of Nids'...many that would normally buy in might balk.

Marines, Tanks, Imperial Guard....these are things we can connect with. We see them everyday....they're just SUPER heavy tanks...and SUPER Humans.

Add that in with the "hero" angle that humanity has against Chaos/Nids/Crons and you have a pretty good argument that only Marines (Possibly IG I will admit) would sell as well.

Captain Micha
10-11-2007, 14:05
They could push Ig Tau or Eldar like they do marines and sell just as many.

I'd rather them push the guard myself. (even though they are my 4th 5th and soon to be 6th army) The guard should be how everyone learns 40k. When you learned how to drive, you were started off with a rather crappy car I'd wager (either due to it's size or how it handled... like a camry...) and it made you a better driver for it if you happened to move up to a sports car. Space marines should be seen as sports cars in a way... not the camry.

Nkari
10-11-2007, 14:14
I could not agree more..

AgeOfEgos
10-11-2007, 14:27
They could push Ig Tau or Eldar like they do marines and sell just as many.

I'd rather them push the guard myself. (even though they are my 4th 5th and soon to be 6th army) The guard should be how everyone learns 40k. When you learned how to drive, you were started off with a rather crappy car I'd wager (either due to it's size or how it handled... like a camry...) and it made you a better driver for it if you happened to move up to a sports car. Space marines should be seen as sports cars in a way... not the camry.

I can't buy into Tau, Eldar...but there is certainly an argument for IG. Humans, not unlike 40K, tend to be nationalistic/xenophobic/[Insert alternative sociology term here]. IG can't really complain though, as Forge World has enough for any IG fetish.

Over the years I've played 40K I've seen many people make the connect/start playing after seeing an IG or Marine army in all it's glory.

/A Toyota Camry is a crappy car? Surely you jest...
//Or perhaps I'm getting old

last akodo
10-11-2007, 14:48
I got sick of seeing the over abundance of marines so I did some thing to address the balance. I started my various xenos armies. I still play against marines a bit but others in my group have taken the same idea. I now get to play marines only as much as any other army. TBH this is great. Sure all the players in the group that have 2+ armies have atleast 1 marine force (lets face it they are cool). But lets face it playing the same army type over and over again gets very dull. Especially if you have to over specialise your army just to be on even grounds (eg anti-MEQ, anti vehicle, anti infantry etc). Or facing dodgy armies.

Luckywallace
10-11-2007, 16:35
I love Marines, but yet I do not play them.

This is BECAUSE of how over-played they are. I love the Marine background and eat up the stories, artwork etc., and I love a well painted Marine army. However, I'd never consider collecting one in the current situation because it really is Marines V Marines everywhere, which isn't helped by these battles being some of the dullest you can fight (don't get me wrong, Marines are a fun army to fight, but it's just marines v marines always falls a little flat with me... orks V orks on the other hand is awesome).

There's no easy solution to this "problem", if there is a solution at all. It'd be nice if G.W. pushed some other armies a bit more. If they streamline the Necrons a bit more and make all their units practicle I could see them really taking off.

As it stands I am extremely disuaded from playing Marines because I don't want to play Marine V Marine games every week. At least if I bring WitchHunters or Orks it won't be another Marine-brawl.

P.S. - Also, a similar situation exists with Chaos... I love them and their fluff too, but they're also over-played and still not too disimilar to Imperial Marines... ho-hum...

Orwin
10-11-2007, 16:38
I'm also tired of the Marinehammer 40K thing. At least, on Warmachine the armies have more or less the same importance.

Agrip. Varenus Denter
10-11-2007, 16:57
I'm not sick of it personally... although the pushing of some Chapters at the expense of others does kinda bug me (that's really just me being selfish and nothing else). I don't expect anything different from GW... there is no 40K without SMs... so I'm kinda used to it.

Tanith Ghost
10-11-2007, 16:57
While I'll say marines are over exposed, I also think that they aren't show to be badass enough. As far as backround goes, marines should only ever be seen one in a blue moon- but if they do show, it leaves the enemy crapping himself and making panicked mistakes at the very idea of marines attacking.

Profiron
10-11-2007, 20:32
I'm sure if Dark Eldar had the stats that Smurfs have, half the people in this thread would be talking about how cool it would be to be a space drow killing machine.

Let's admit it, you all like to win, right? Who doesn't? I know this is a big fat opinion thread (as intended) but I'm pretty sure the number of SM players would suffer if they lost their stats. After all why be the merely human IG when you can be SUPERhuman, as many have stated.

Really my only true complaint is lack of model support. You can't beat mass conformity. Rules and new units can always be homebrewed, but when was the last time the Tyranids got a new model? Meanwhile we have a whole line devoted to another human faction who deserves it because they hunt 'daemons' (whatever the hell those are). Why don't you just take a normal space marine and paint it white and do some minor model conversions? It's ridiculous.

mistformsquirrel
10-11-2007, 21:00
Right...

I think you've just gone from stating your opinion to sputtering and frothing...

You do realize that Grey Knights are quite *unlike* normal Marines right? There's a reason they don't get mentioned in most "Too Many Marine" threads - they're very very different; and indeed, are actually pretty tough to play as. They also only get 2 exclusive types of models... wow... thats a whole lot of model support isn't it? 2! I mean *gasp*

You're also forgetting the whole rest of the Daemonhunters list - which includes already existant models (Rhinos, Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts, Stormtroopers, Assassins), and new models that aren't marines, IE: Inquisitors, Daemonhosts...; this of course doesn't even explore the possibility of inducting IG...

Its one thing to say there are too many Marine codexes - but at least pick your fights with a little forethought.

Profiron
10-11-2007, 21:10
That's two models too many for yet another space marine rehash.

sabreu
10-11-2007, 21:11
::Blinks:: Aren't there only two types of Grey Knights units though? I thought the only thing they don't have to match their army list was Psycannons for their Dreadnaughts?

blackroyal
10-11-2007, 21:23
That's two models too many for yet another space marine rehash.

You call it a rehash, I call it different enough that I don't feel like i'm playing Space Marines.

I'm working on a marine army that has no 3+ saves in it. I am SO sick of tactical marines. (I've got 5+ K in Nids, so I don't feel bad) I also just started IG.

mistformsquirrel
10-11-2007, 21:28
::Blinks:: Aren't there only two types of Grey Knights units though? I thought the only thing they don't have to match their army list was Psycannons for their Dreadnaughts?

There are only 2 kinds of Grey Knights. Grey Knights make up less than 1/4 of the Daemonhunters list; most of the list is made up of models from other pre-existing ranges; and Grey Knights themselves are only Marines insofar as their base stats and armorsave go.

sabreu
10-11-2007, 21:32
mistformsquirrel,

I was just asking because I was genuinely curious. Thanks for the quick answer.

mistformsquirrel
10-11-2007, 21:42
No problem, sorry for being a bit testy. Seems every forum I'm active on, today is "random argument day". That + No sleep = grumpy squirrel.

stonefox
10-11-2007, 22:00
I'll take getting raped by Cheldar and Nidzilla instead of playing space ****** anyday. Every day.

senorcardgage
10-11-2007, 22:25
I really don't see marines that often... last time I went to the shop there were:
2 guard armies
Tau
Eldar
Witch hunters (me)
and one marine team.

I find that there are always tonnes of tau, nids, and eldar now, and we are short on the marines...

burning crome
10-11-2007, 23:01
Getting back on topic (I'm a marine/daemon hunter player by the way) i think that marines are not unfairly supported but the other races are under supported. If GW started hard selling eldar(which there are two codex’s for, I know they play very differently but if you're going to start stating that gray knights are shiny marines then be prepared to face your own races being dumbed down) types their would be millions of threads moaning about that? I don't thing they can win on this they can't give all army types the same attention cos that simply want make any money. Marines have been the poster boy's of 40k since the beginning so they deserve a little more respect then some of these post have be giving,ok 5 new codex’s wile the DE haven’t been updated might be pushing it a little but I thing it worth remembering that half these race where created so the SM would have some thing to fight in the first place?

AgeOfEgos
10-11-2007, 23:25
I'll take getting raped by Cheldar and Nidzilla instead of playing space ****** anyday. Every day.

Until you were raped by Falcons and TMC for a month or so.

Then you would post 'I'll take getting raped by 3 lith/destroyer armies any day instead of playing Cheldar or Nidzilla anyday'.

Then 'I'll take getting raped by plasma drop IG any day instead of playing 3 lith/destroyer armies'.

Eventually you'd be begging for Marines ;)

ro9an
10-11-2007, 23:27
Even I with me blessed SOTE am sick of SMs I'd like my Scythes to fight against non-marine armies!

Torga_DW
10-11-2007, 23:29
Thats a bit short-sighted though. Saying that because marines are relatively rare, so i can play them and you can't. Maybe you should be the one forced to play a non-marine army?

aad
11-11-2007, 00:20
and i don,t see the problems with oversaturation.

their spacemarines, and their kickass.

if you don,t like them that,s too bad.

people don,t buy spacemarines because its the only thing they can buy.
people buy them because they like them.
other people will still buy otherraces.

and to say or think that spacemarines are beeing shoved tru the mouths of all new customers, is the same think as you would say their not thinking straight and they have no taste.........

if you see a actionmovie with the humans beeing attackt by aliens ,you will be for the humans right??
if for real we would be attacked by aliens you would be for the humans wouldn,t you??
your a human, imperial guards are human, humans have the tendency to like superhumans(like hulk,spiderman,batman,daredevil etc etc) so when their is a superhuman available (in this case in the form of a spacemarine) then people will buy them.

much like that the action figures of superhero,s are much more sold than supervillains.

its in us.:D

Wazz
11-11-2007, 00:53
Regarding marines not being the main part of the fluff is just insane!

The emporor's, beloved by all, specialized army of super killing machines that helped found the imperium of man - which the entire 40k world is about!
Ofcourse it's the main part of the fluff, then the heresy where half of his superwarriors turn against their beloved grandfather! It's the stuff of the legends...

Even if the Imperial Guard were the primary force to be reckoned with in 40k, do you think that a 14 year old kid would rather take the worthless guardsmen or the super elite space marine? Ofcourse he would take the space marine anyday!

It's like regular army vs special forces, in any other situation, people like the elite :)

blackroyal
11-11-2007, 00:57
and i don,t see the problems with oversaturation.
The problem comes when 3/4ths of players are playing some form of Marine. I am in a six week tourney and only three players are not playing Quad 4's (stats) & power armor. We have Orks, Nids, and a Guard player. 3 are playing Chaos Marines and the last six all have Space Marine armies.


their spacemarines

Who's space marines?

JK... I just had to.

stonefox
11-11-2007, 01:02
Until you were raped by Falcons and TMC for a month or so.

Then you would post 'I'll take getting raped by 3 lith/destroyer armies any day instead of playing Cheldar or Nidzilla anyday'.

Then 'I'll take getting raped by plasma drop IG any day instead of playing 3 lith/destroyer armies'.

Eventually you'd be begging for Marines ;)

Cheldar and Nidzilla have been around for a good couple of months. I still enjoy playing against them. I also enjoy playing lith/destroyer armies. Like I said, any of those instead of marines makes me happy.

Grim_Reaper46
11-11-2007, 01:07
The simple fact is Gamesworkshop is a BUSINESS.Also on top of that,Space Marines is Gamesworkshop Flagship.Like Ford with their mustang,Dell with its XPS,Sony with their Playstation 3,and so on you get the point.Space Marine symbolizes/promotes the warhammer 40k has a whole.

dcikgyurt
11-11-2007, 01:22
People play what they want to play. We aren't forced to play SM or CSM. I've been a Black Legion fan since I started playing as a kid (15+ years ago) and the sole reason I play is because they are the legion of the bloke who started off the Horus heresy. They may be lad be a child with anger management issues now, but their fluff is still fantastic.

And where I play we have a roughly even mix of guard, necrons, eldar, 'nids, tau, kroot, marine, chaos marines and dark eldar (yes we have a dark eldar player or two).

Nobody is forced play anything bt what they want to play and most of the staff at my local store sell people what they want, not what will boost their sales.

AgeOfEgos
11-11-2007, 01:24
I also enjoy playing lith/destroyer armies.

Heh, you hate Marines but enjoy playing 3 Lith/Destroyers? ;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v694/AgeOfEgos/exploding-head.gif

xibo
11-11-2007, 01:47
... humans have the tendency to like superhumans(like hulk,spiderman,batman,daredevil etc etc) so when their is a superhuman available (in this case in the form of a spacemarine) ...

Fear the mutant, the witch ( and the heretic )!
1. Marines are mutants.
2. Psykers are incredibly powerfull by fluff
3. See SSM ( spiked scape urines )

Inquisitor Feldenhaus
11-11-2007, 02:11
I am sick of Space-Marine bashing, sure, a lot of people play them, most of us have armies of them, they are a good starter and they do have appeal. All of you just need to face the fact that they are popular, and these threads will never change that, people will still play them and they will remain popular, get over it.

EmperorEternalXIX
11-11-2007, 02:23
I got sick of seeing the over abundance of marines so I did some thing to address the balance. I started my various xenos armies. I still play against marines a bit but others in my group have taken the same idea. I now get to play marines only as much as any other army. TBH this is great. Sure all the players in the group that have 2+ armies have atleast 1 marine force (lets face it they are cool). But lets face it playing the same army type over and over again gets very dull. Especially if you have to over specialise your army just to be on even grounds (eg anti-MEQ, anti vehicle, anti infantry etc). Or facing dodgy armies. I understand the part about boredom fighting the same armies over and over again but the point of the game is the struggle of the Imperium in the midst of a universe at war, not how the Tau deal with Dark Eldar raiders.

I've heard this argued many times, but it is still pretty much true no matter how you slice it. The central struggle of the story is the heresy, and the fact of the matter is the entire situation with Chaos is perhaps 75-85% the Emperor and humanity's fault. The xenos are bystanders, casting their lot in an effort to strike at the embattled giant that is the Imperium while the getting is good.

I'm glad to see a complaint in terms of gameplay, rather than just broad range marine hate, though. Most people just hate on them for whatever reasons...just because they are who the are. Much the way our local football team here (you may have heard of them ... the Patriots) are hated by the rest of the league right now.

I often see the anti-marine sentiment as akin to someone saying "God, I am so sick of these Superman comic books being all about Superman...so boring...I wish they would show more of Jimmy Olsen." Heh. Either way though, the xenos are ultimately sideline characters, while the wars of Man are the the central fulcrum on which the 40k world exists.

Honestly, given that, we should consider ourselves fortunate that there even ARE other races, and that they are abundant and all very different. Perhaps not as numerous as their ceramite-coated counterparts, but nonetheless, at least they are there, and they have clearly had a lot of effort put into them (Eldar, Tau, the new Orks...all have much more interesting armies builds than we Marines do).

Believe me. When it comes to the game itself, we get just as bored with the power fist sergeants and bolters and chaplains with jump packs just as much as you guys do, sometimes...

sabreu
11-11-2007, 02:55
I am sick of Space-Marine bashing, sure, a lot of people play them, most of us have armies of them, they are a good starter and they do have appeal. All of you just need to face the fact that they are popular, and these threads will never change that, people will still play them and they will remain popular, get over it.


It's almost laughable. While there are people in these threads who genuinely hate marines for some reason, most complaining usually have an army of marines for themselves as well. You really can't tell someone, "It will never change, don't state your opinion" to someone who has over 3,000 pts of Marines.

And yes, I realize how stupid it can be for someone who owns 3,000 pts of Marines to complain about Marine oversaturation, but I own just as many points in Orks and soon to be Eldar. ^_~

Schanburg
11-11-2007, 04:22
People play what they want to play. We aren't forced to play SM or CSM. I've been a Black Legion fan since I started playing as a kid (15+ years ago) and the sole reason I play is because they are the legion of the bloke who started off the Horus heresy. They may be lad be a child with anger management issues now, but their fluff is still fantastic.

And where I play we have a roughly even mix of guard, necrons, eldar, 'nids, tau, kroot, marine, chaos marines and dark eldar (yes we have a dark eldar player or two).

Nobody is forced play anything bt what they want to play and most of the staff at my local store sell people what they want, not what will boost their sales.
Really, anything being bought at all boosts the store's sales, so it's not like they're losing anything.

RavenMorpheus
11-11-2007, 04:42
I know I'm in the minority here. GW is obviously shoving SM's down our throat because most of us go for it, and to get away from your bread and butter is commercial suicide. But I'm wondering how many Ork/Eldar/DE/Tau/Necron/Tyrannid players out there are sick of having to wait for army updates because GW decided that the 'green space marines' needed a codex update?

Not to mention Chaos, which are pretty much evil space marines. Yeah you could say the same thing about DE being evil Eldar but the thing is 75% of the people out there don't play Eldar. I just wish that they would expand some of the more neglected armies out and am bewildered that there are so many individual codexes and units for one single army.

And if you absolutely love SM's please stay out of the thread, we already know you're out there.

Oooh an "I hate SM because I don't get updates to my army thread" original :rolleyes:

Lets face it, SM are the most purchased army, so what sells the most gets the best treatment, and yes I do own an SM army, DA to be precise and I also have a CSM army, but quite frankly I don't think ANY of the codices that have been updated needed it in the way they have been, apart from the DA update, which was needed as they didn't quite fit into the rules as they are now and also the BA update but the BA update should have been a book like the DA not a couple of articles in WD.

However I can see your point, after all Orks and DE haven't had any updates since the codices were originally released, but they're both getting them if you care to pay attention to the threads in the rumours forum - it all takes time and just because certain SM armies and CSM have been done first doesn't mean that others won't see the light of day.

whitemagikmarker
11-11-2007, 04:56
im not sick of spacemarines, im sick of seeing yet again, more of these useless threads like this which dont contribute anything at all to this hobby other than to boggle it down in wasted time arguing over something which is not worth arguing about.

Stella Cadente
11-11-2007, 05:01
I am sick of marines, not only from GW's ever increasing amount of shelf space dedicated to this SUB PAR army, but also from players, its all they ever talk about, marines this marines that, and IF you ever get the chance to mention any other army its always oh marines are so much better than them, marines can do this, marines can do that" blah blah blah, yeah whatever, go slit your wrist and make me happy

AgeOfEgos
11-11-2007, 05:12
I am sick of marines, not only from GW's ever increasing amount of shelf space dedicated to this SUB PAR army, but also from players, its all they ever talk about, marines this marines that, and IF you ever get the chance to mention any other army its always oh marines are so much better than them, marines can do this, marines can do that" blah blah blah, yeah whatever, go slit your wrist and make me happy

Sorry I missed that, I was too busy painting my Marines up. By the by, did you know Marines have multiple organs to increase their combat potential? Did you know Marines can count to infinity...twice? Did you know Marines...

Stella Cadente
11-11-2007, 05:18
Sorry I missed that, I was too busy painting my Marines up. By the by, did you know Marines have multiple organs to increase their combat potential? Did you know Marines can count to infinity...twice? Did you know Marines...
did you know marines would get the butts kicked by Chuck norris just for claiming to be stronger than him, god he would be good in 40k, not a single marine would ever exist again

RavenMorpheus
11-11-2007, 05:22
did you know marines would get the butts kicked by Chuck norris just for claiming to be stronger than him, god he would be good in 40k, not a single marine would ever exist again

:D lol.

Sorry had to laugh at this one...

Chuck Norris lol.

Yes everyone goes on about SM but it's no worse than people banging on about Halo 1,2 & 3, or what their favourite band is or anything like that.

Sure your average whiny 12yr old goes ZOMG SM, must wet myself, but that's only cos they're young and have succumbed to the "any idiot will buy SM trap" that GW has laid, because they haven't been shown any better.

Bassik
11-11-2007, 08:01
I play Chaos Space Marines (and love the new codex, by the way) and I don't mind all the Space Marines. I enjoy playing against them, because I have done it so many times I can make decisions and not get a nasty surprise thrown on me. They are also my armies main enemy, so thats another reason I love to fight them.

Its not like they're forcing you to play them, you know.

Imperialis_Dominatus
11-11-2007, 09:06
Furthermore Urines lost their 'psychotic' part...


Being member of the ecclesiarchy doesnt protect you from angry marines. Even being member of the imperial guard regiment that helped angry marines fighting somewhere doesnt protect you if angry marines get bloodlust.
In the end Blood Angles are no other than World Eaters with less spikes, less honour ( you know - thats what Khorne originally stood for ) and a more mutant primarch.

Somewhere between the first sentence and the second paragraph you lost the first sentence....


However, I'm sure this point has been raised an equal amount of times an 'I hate Space Marines' thread has been started, ie millions of times, and I'm also pretty sure it will AGAIN be ignored.

I'm not ignoring you.


I love Marines, but yet I do not play them.

This is BECAUSE of how over-played they are.

Meh. Don't hate something because it's a trend. Take the trend and make it your own, if you truly like it.


That's two models too many for yet another space marine rehash.

Look, man, GK are different enough from SM to warrant another model. Just like Craftworld Eldar, Dark Eldar, and (someday...) Exodite Eldar are exotic enough from each other to warrant another model. Or Cadians, Catachans, Mordians, Tallarnites, etc...

Don't hate the sinner, hate the sin. GW is perhaps emphasizing an army too much in your opinion. That's no reason to look down on Marines themselves, it's yet another fault of GW's. Back off, attempt to be polite, and quit trolling.


Until you were raped by Falcons and TMC for a month or so.

Then you would post 'I'll take getting raped by 3 lith/destroyer armies any day instead of playing Cheldar or Nidzilla anyday'.

Then 'I'll take getting raped by plasma drop IG any day instead of playing 3 lith/destroyer armies'.

Eventually you'd be begging for Marines ;)

I myself, in the first place, would much rather not be raped at all.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v694/AgeOfEgos/exploding-head.gif

Best. Pic. Ever.


I am sick of marines, not only from GW's ever increasing amount of shelf space dedicated to this SUB PAR army, but also from players, its all they ever talk about, marines this marines that, and IF you ever get the chance to mention any other army its always oh marines are so much better than them, marines can do this, marines can do that" blah blah blah, yeah whatever, go slit your wrist and make me happy

Again, it's not Marines. It's the players you roll with and the company you buy from. Tell the Marine lovers to back the **** up, b*tch, cause you be reppin Necrons/Eldar/Nids/etc. now, y'all. And not Salamanders, despite the lingo. Sorry, couldn't resist.

And frankly the line where you tell people to go kill themselves isn't very representative of proper forum behavior. Christ, why are you all so worked up, anyway? I don't recall telling anyone to blow their heads off with a shotgun in the Falcon thread(s), for example.

EDIT: Number of the Beast hahahah. This post is obviously either corrupted or blessed (ref. Grey Knights...).

mistformsquirrel
11-11-2007, 09:24
I_D wins the thread. <. .>b

Imperialis_Dominatus
11-11-2007, 10:15
I_D wins the thread. <. .>b

SO sigged! Thanks for that. Made my... not day, it's 3 a.m... made my lack-of-sleep night.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
11-11-2007, 10:26
It won't forever. Nothing lasts forever!

Radiation does. Radio waves are apparently radiation from the birth of the universe :p

But seriously, theres a lot more to each Space Marine Codex than the colour of armour. For example, Dark Angels have the rather spiffy Death and Ravenwings, which are different in their organisation than the Ultramarines. Blood Angels offer a totally different style of play to Dark Angels, and so on.

Believe it or not, but when a significant proportion of sales come from one army, the more variety you can offer those players the better, otherwise the alleged Marine dominance would be a lot worse.

Put it this way, when you ask a 'Marine' player which army he collects, he's far more likely to define it by Chapter. Thus, it's at least worth considering all these additional rules and army structures worth it.

As for an all in one Codex, well, have you seen the old Chaos Codex? Good book, but a bit of a mess overall.

Bassik
11-11-2007, 16:13
Radiation does. Radio waves are apparently radiation from the birth of the universe

So this basicly means I am using cosmic powers that came into being with the birth of the universe to listen to Arrow Classic Rock?
Thats the coolest thing ever.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
11-11-2007, 16:54
Radiation does. Radio waves are apparently radiation from the birth of the universe :p

But seriously, theres a lot more to each Space Marine Codex than the colour of armour. For example, Dark Angels have the rather spiffy Death and Ravenwings, which are different in their organisation than the Ultramarines. Blood Angels offer a totally different style of play to Dark Angels, and so on.

Believe it or not, but when a significant proportion of sales come from one army, the more variety you can offer those players the better, otherwise the alleged Marine dominance would be a lot worse.

Put it this way, when you ask a 'Marine' player which army he collects, he's far more likely to define it by Chapter. Thus, it's at least worth considering all these additional rules and army structures worth it.

As for an all in one Codex, well, have you seen the old Chaos Codex? Good book, but a bit of a mess overall.


first:
in each codex you have many different playstyles.

second:
what is deathwing and ravenwing? basicaly it is 1st company and 8th company[yes i know it is 2nd company but it is basicaly 8th company which suddenly is battle company - it use 8th company organisation template]. DA are not unique - many chapters have 1st company equipped with terminator armour. they should be incorporated to basic codex. they are basic marines afterall.

thrid:
is there significant difference between BA and any other chapter ? not really beside another pattern of predator and death company [i know they have VAS - they are basicaly veterans with jump packs, like white scars have veterans with bikes and some chapters have veteran devastator squad - this is reason why traits should be included in the codex - 'basic' marine list should not allow such divergences, but some chapters are slightly divergent]

sabreu
11-11-2007, 17:55
Radiation does. Radio waves are apparently radiation from the birth of the universe :p

But seriously, theres a lot more to each Space Marine Codex than the colour of armour. For example, Dark Angels have the rather spiffy Death and Ravenwings, which are different in their organisation than the Ultramarines. Blood Angels offer a totally different style of play to Dark Angels, and so on.

Believe it or not, but when a significant proportion of sales come from one army, the more variety you can offer those players the better, otherwise the alleged Marine dominance would be a lot worse.

Put it this way, when you ask a 'Marine' player which army he collects, he's far more likely to define it by Chapter. Thus, it's at least worth considering all these additional rules and army structures worth it.

As for an all in one Codex, well, have you seen the old Chaos Codex? Good book, but a bit of a mess overall.


Does Radiation last forever? I was under the belief it just depletes very very slowly. Honest question, just curious on that point. But to the real points:

1.) Deathwing is just the first company that uses entirely Terminator Suits.

2.) Ravenwing is a bike formation, which White Scars are known to have operated as. Not really unique.

3.) Most 'chapters' are just a different color scheme with a few 'twists'. With all the Marine variants running around you'd think M. Knight Shamayalan was behind writing variant and trait system. It would take about 1-2 pages to write all the Chapter special rules and effects if ported to the main Space Marine Codex:

Dark Angels: Get more plasma, Special Character allows Deathwing, Special Character allows Ravenwing, etc

Blood Angels: Assault squads get Furious Charge and Rending, Sanquinary Priests, Baal Predator, etc

Black Templars: Can take initiates in Tactical Squads, Fall forward, hatred of psykers, Emperor's Champion, etc.

Salamanders: -1 initiative, Melta-Flamer weapon prominance, Thunder Hammers for chaplains, etc.

4.) I own said codex. Concept wasn't faulty, implementation was.

xibo
11-11-2007, 18:21
It won't forever. Nothing lasts forever!
Eventually marines will be extincted one day. Eventuelly the inquisiton and the imperial guard may disappear one day... but the Emperor will be forever!

Mad Doc Grotsnik
11-11-2007, 18:26
There is still a significantly different feel to each Chapter, thus warranting a different Codex.

Whether you agree or not, multiple books for the best selling range *is* a good thing. Otherwise things just get messy and unnecessarily complicated.

xibo
11-11-2007, 18:32
If you play techy shooty imperium it feels totally different to zealotic CC imperium, yet the imperium only has one army book...
I could have said IG has different feels too, but the Imperium is one of the most played/bought faction of FB while IG is a minor played/bought faction of 40k.

Takitron
11-11-2007, 19:17
Im sick of people whining about it :)

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
11-11-2007, 19:24
Does Radiation last forever? I was under the belief it just depletes very very slowly. Honest question, just curious on that point. But to the real points:

1.) Deathwing is just the first company that uses entirely Terminator Suits.

2.) Ravenwing is a bike formation, which White Scars are known to have operated as. Not really unique.

3.) Most 'chapters' are just a different color scheme with a few 'twists'. With all the Marine variants running around you'd think M. Knight Shamayalan was behind writing variant and trait system. It would take about 1-2 pages to write all the Chapter special rules and effects if ported to the main Space Marine Codex:

Dark Angels: Get more plasma, Special Character allows Deathwing, Special Character allows Ravenwing, etc

Blood Angels: Assault squads get Furious Charge and Rending, Sanquinary Priests, Baal Predator, etc

Black Templars: Can take initiates in Tactical Squads, Fall forward, hatred of psykers, Emperor's Champion, etc.

Salamanders: -1 initiative, Melta-Flamer weapon prominance, Thunder Hammers for chaplains, etc.

4.) I own said codex. Concept wasn't faulty, implementation was.

1)right

2)raven wing is bike speeder formation which is known as 8th reserve company in each SM chapter ;) they just use bikes instead of pack - nothing really important.

3)
DA:nothing different - every SM chapter should have option to deploy 1st and 8th/9th company. maybe 1/2 special character. no plasma fetish.

BA:2 different things - 1st:death company[one unit can gain rending/fnp rules for X points and must be lead by chaplain] 2nd:baal predator. maybe special character.

BT: are too divergent now, i dont understand reasons why GW made them as such but they should be in Divergent Marines codex right now.

S:2 special weapons in squads. nothing more. maybe special character.


point is - even with 1 codex you should be able to make any numbers of 'different' chapters. just go with the theme. not with uber efficiency

Torga_DW
11-11-2007, 19:57
@archeron: when you listed BA, you forgot honour guard, veteran assault squads, and furioso dreadnoughts. Nevermind that you gave death company a good whack with the nerf stick already. Maybe a special char? Why should they be taken out?

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
11-11-2007, 20:10
probably because i feel that there should be traits[an army must choose one major nerf and can have only one such organisation trait]:

1st company:
-grants terminator command squad
-terminator as troops
-tacticals as elite

jump pack company:
-grants vas and JP command squad
-jump packs as troops
-tacticals as elite

bike company:
-grants bike veterans and bike command squad
-bikes as troops
-tacticals as elite

mad dread is cool but seriously could be SC.

Torga_DW
11-11-2007, 20:55
BA already have a nerf: their price. Since they're a codex chapter, why should they get a major and minor disadvantage on top of that?

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
11-11-2007, 21:12
BA already have a nerf: their price. Since they're a codex chapter, why should they get a major and minor disadvantage on top of that?

BA dont have nerf atm - they have good powerful list.

in 'my codex' they would be as viable as ATM - balanced fair list

Torga_DW
11-11-2007, 21:20
So you don't count high points values as a drawback? I see.....

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
11-11-2007, 21:39
it is drawback if it is unfair point cost. in any other case - not.

there is drawback included in every above ideas :)

Torga_DW
11-11-2007, 21:43
Why does it have to be unfair to be a drawback? I'm always outnumbered as it is, regardless of which army i fight. Is that unfair enough?

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
11-11-2007, 21:56
it is your army composition :] why you should be rewarded for it ? if somebody take entire termi forces he will be way more outnumbered than you are - do you agree with giving him bonus for full termi army ? point are to make sure both players have nearly even chances - if you take better units[more expensive] then it is your choice :)

Templar Ben
11-11-2007, 22:00
Perhaps you should be discussing this in the 1 codex to rule them all thread.

Tymell
11-11-2007, 22:02
I know I'm in the minority here. GW is obviously shoving SM's down our throat because most of us go for it, and to get away from your bread and butter is commercial suicide. But I'm wondering how many Ork/Eldar/DE/Tau/Necron/Tyrannid players out there are sick of having to wait for army updates because GW decided that the 'green space marines' needed a codex update?

Not to mention Chaos, which are pretty much evil space marines. Yeah you could say the same thing about DE being evil Eldar but the thing is 75% of the people out there don't play Eldar. I just wish that they would expand some of the more neglected armies out and am bewildered that there are so many individual codexes and units for one single army.

My response to the core question:

Yes, I am a bit sick of space marine oversaturation, although I blame this on GW, not players or the army itself.

And I'm equally sick of people complaining about it. Sorry, but it comes up every week.

Oh and actually, what I'm even more sick of is the marine models: I want bigger ones, dammit. Marines are supposed to tower over most folks :p


And if you absolutely love SM's please stay out of the thread, we already know you're out there.

So in other words, if someone is liable to strongly disagree with you they're not allowed to post a reply? :eyebrows:

Torga_DW
11-11-2007, 22:06
Yeah, this thread is starting to overlap with the: all in 1 marine codex thread. Take a look at my most recent post there and feel free to respond to it.

@acheron: why don't you make a new thread detailing your proposed changes to the BA codex, and i'll respond to it there (as a BA player). Btw yes, an all termie army does have bonuses and restrictions that are a part of the inherent points cost. Thats kinda the whole point, otherwise who would play an unviable army that is no different from other armies?

Nugottlich
11-11-2007, 22:30
Someone looking for a challenge?

Torga_DW
11-11-2007, 22:37
Well thats their perogative i guess. If someone wants to play a game with me, march all his units in the open and not shoot/assault back, who am i to deny them that priviledge?

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
11-11-2007, 22:54
basicaly make 2 codices : one for codex space marines and second for divergent space marines [SW,BT and divergent ones]

basic list:

HQ:
Commander
Chaplain
Librarian
Command Squad

Elites:
Techmarine*
Dreads
Termies
Veterans
Scouts

Troops
Tactical Squad

Fast
Bikes
Attack Bikes
Speeders
Assault Squads

Heavy
All vehicles
Devs

And two trait categories:
organisation traits [called major]
1st company
assault company
scout company
unit options/new units trait [called minor]
ba lite[basicaly option to create 1 wulfen/death company lite squad]
salamander lite[basicaly option to take 2 special weapons in tacticals]

then minor/major disadvantage
got the idea ?

Torga_DW
11-11-2007, 22:57
Well first you've just derailed the thread, which is why i said start a new topic. Secondly, you're forcing me to play vanilla marines, which is not what i want to do. During the 3rd edition BA codex i stopped playing them altogether and instead tried making a traited BA-style vanilla marine army. It played nothing similar, and i didn't like it. Why should i play something i don't like?

edit: back on topic. At our weekly games day yesterday, the breakdown was as follows: 1 space wolf player, 1 black templar player, 1 blood angels player (me), 1 dark eldar player, 2 IG players, 1 tau player. So less than 50% played straight-out geneticly enhanced armies. And of those marine armies, each one had different units, different wargear options, and played differently. To me oversaturation would be if all 3 marine players played (eg) space wolves.

Profiron
12-11-2007, 00:19
I requested that SM fanboys not post in this thread for a specific reason. I wanted to gauge exactly how many people share my point of view.

And yes DA are different from UM because they pray to the emperor on the fifth day of the Imperial calendar blah blah blah blah. I know this is a big enough reason in your mind for them to get their own book and model line, but as a hobbyist (someone only interested in model painting) they all look the same. They're next to impossible to customize.

Try and empathize. How about we delay the next SM update so that GW can work on a special hive fleet that has more carnifexes. You paint them different and they have different fluff and rules, so you aren't going to see any new models for your army for a few years. Sorry, but the other Tyranids were getting a little dull, we need more!

We're also releasing a new line that's very much like tyranids but with demons, so maybe we'll get around to your army in 2009.

Please don't tell me SMurf hate surprises you. I would love not to bitch and just do something about it, but I can't work with pewter.

Torga_DW
12-11-2007, 00:26
You can't gauge how many ppl share your point of view if you only ask for ppl that share your point of view. Thats like an election poll where only democrats are allowed to be interviewed. Your results will be skewed, and mean nothing.

The problems you mention for other armies still apply to mine. I get nothing when marine variant a gets released. I only get something when my variant is addressed. Smurf hate doesn't surprise me at all. Neither does racism, sexism, or any form of bigotry.

Tymell
12-11-2007, 01:36
I requested that SM fanboys not post in this thread for a specific reason. I wanted to gauge exactly how many people share my point of view.

But your initial request for no space marine fans ruins the whole thing: precisely as Torga says, you're not saying "Who agrees with me?", you're saying "Who out of the people who are likely to agree me agrees with me?"

You're not guaging how many people share your point of view in context. Yes, this might show you how many people agree with you (so in that sense I see where you're coming from), but without knowing how many people disagree with you these results are meaningless.

Templar Ben
12-11-2007, 01:43
A bunch of off topic crap.

Seriously. http://warseer.com/forums/40k-general-discussion/112102-5th-ed-40k-should-marines-have-a-rolled-into-1-codex.html There is a discussion for what you are talking about.


I requested that SM fanboys not post in this thread for a specific reason. I wanted to gauge exactly how many people share my point of view.

And yes DA are different from UM because they pray to the emperor on the fifth day of the Imperial calendar blah blah blah blah. I know this is a big enough reason in your mind for them to get their own book and model line, but as a hobbyist (someone only interested in model painting) they all look the same. They're next to impossible to customize.

Try and empathize. How about we delay the next SM update so that GW can work on a special hive fleet that has more carnifexes. You paint them different and they have different fluff and rules, so you aren't going to see any new models for your army for a few years. Sorry, but the other Tyranids were getting a little dull, we need more!

We're also releasing a new line that's very much like tyranids but with demons, so maybe we'll get around to your army in 2009.

Please don't tell me SMurf hate surprises you. I would love not to bitch and just do something about it, but I can't work with pewter.

The surprise is someone going to a forum posting an idea and then saying please do not respond if you disagree.

Varath- Lord Impaler
12-11-2007, 02:07
I requested that SM fanboys not post in this thread for a specific reason. I wanted to gauge exactly how many people share my point of view.

Fanboys?

God, that term pisses me off.

Oh well.

I played Chaos Khorne first, then Imperial fists.

I am expanding into Death Korps guard now. I dont see Space marines as over saturated in the game. Its quite well represented.

Look at it this way. The Fluff is generally from the Imperiums point of view.

This is why images of Marines being defeated is so low, Imperial propeganda.

I would like some more artwork of marines being beaten. Ive had an image of a Marine on the ground with around 5 or 6 guardsmen on him, beating him with their rifles, pinning him down, and one stabbing his bayonette into the marines neck piece.

That would look awsome.

But anyway, marines are cool. They are Psychotic killers who believe in nothing but their own superiority springing from, well, their superiority.

My pants like marines, do yours?

AgeOfEgos
12-11-2007, 03:39
I requested that SM fanboys not post in this thread for a specific reason. I wanted to gauge exactly how many people share my point of view.....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v694/AgeOfEgos/4yapdld.gif

AngryAngel
12-11-2007, 03:46
Can I chime in and say I'm sick of people who whine about space marines ?

I don't like chaos..I hate them beyond all reason, yet I don't make threads just to voice my hate. What possible good will it do ? If your sick of space marines 1) refuse to play them, 2) beat the crap out of every space marine player ya see. Or tell them to their face how you hate them and all they stand for. Otherwise stop blowing hot air about it on the net, it won't change anything.

Ward.
12-11-2007, 04:13
Fanboys?
I would like some more artwork of marines being beaten. Ive had an image of a Marine on the ground with around 5 or 6 guardsmen on him, beating him with their rifles, pinning him down, and one stabbing his bayonette into the marines neck piece.

That would look awsome.


That would look great for a traitor guard codex.

As long as it's more then 5 or six, say 12, and they'd have to be pinning his legs as well, with the bayonet going for the eyes, with him heroically struggling to get back up. Or even better have it in story board form through out the codex, with him gradually being over come and finally slain, god I wish I could draw that. :)

Polonius
12-11-2007, 04:27
Well, I'm not exactly a fan boy, but I guess I agree with the broad point that there are too many Marine codices. Frankly, I enjoyed the 3rd edition approach of a single codex, with many, many sub-codices. The closest we have now is the BA pdf, which I love.

The problem with the solution, however, was made dramatically clear when the new SM codex dropped: all the sub lists got wackier. So they're cleaning them up with new, full size codices.

Do I wish my IG, who despite assurances were clearly not designed with 4th edition in mind would get an update before space wolves? Maybe, but then I remember that space wolves haven't gotten an update since long before any army except Orks and DE.

The big argument people like to make is that the armies are basically the same. Well, that's as true to a point, but not horribly. In terms of game play, Dark Angels play very differently from BT or 'nilla, about as differently as Orks from Nids, or IG from Tau. Marines are the basic army, the perfectly balanced point in terms of durability, mobility, density, firepower and assault. In terms of look, well, they all share a few key models, but there's a lot of variety in the upgrade sprues.

Varath- Lord Impaler
12-11-2007, 05:00
As long as it's more then 5 or six, say 12, and they'd have to be pinning his legs as well, with the bayonet going for the eyes, with him heroically struggling to get back up. Or even better have it in story board form through out the codex, with him gradually being over come and finally slain, god I wish I could draw that.

nah, Keep them both loyalists and only 5 or 6

Shows that the Imperium isnt always unified. Also that marines arnt as invulnerable as they seem.

I <3 W
12-11-2007, 07:01
Well marines are awsome and easy. So ppl start out with them. They make gw the most money. gw suports 'em. Anyone see a circle? The only escape is when the newbie gamers grow up. I know me and one other friend that didnt start with the marines lol. I started with necrons, moved to chaos, I'm on dkok (but theyl get some marines as allies soon) and my m8 has some 'nids. I think its fine for ppl to have nicely converted marines, but I;m really tired of the"oh I like the blue ones...I'll paint 'emlike the blue ones on the box ppl. Damn the blue marines! lol.