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View Full Version : Chaos sorcerers in chariots, yeah or mweh?



Gamgee
10-09-2005, 16:31
Hello to you all,

I've been thinking about where to put my sorcerers in my evolving chaos army, which is focused around 1 or 2 marauder units, perhaps one chaos warrior unit, marauder horsemen, ogres, trolls and a giant. I'd like to keep them safe somewhere, but they lack speed to keep up with the big ones, are vulnerable in my horseman units, but perhaps they could ride a chariot?

What are your opinions about and experiences with characters in chariots?

greetz,

Gamgee

(ps I only want to use undivided, so the flying circus is not an option ;) )

User Name
10-09-2005, 19:53
It would limin LOS for some spells and make the chariot almost the #1 targit for shooting concidering its taabout 300+ points in a single modle.

I say drill a hole in the bottom so you can pin the scor in the chariot or on a base for variety.

I tried that combo with my BSB and I found the points that it gives away is not worth it because it isnt that difficult to single out and destroy a chariot, but it was worth 500 Vp because of the banner.

SlaaneshSlave
10-09-2005, 21:48
I like it. Gives the scorcerer a 2+ AS & very moble. Will make it a primary target for your opponent. Taking another chariot will offset that. Or just get used to the chariot getting shot out from under the scorcerer. It will take a bunch of attention to take out those 100 points.

I like to run my scorcerer in a chariot with the beserker blade. With the base size of the chariot you will be getting another 2-4 attacks which makes the unit nasty in combat as well.

Side point, Slaanesh magic only has 1 spell that needs LOS.

gortexgunnerson
11-09-2005, 01:38
I think it is like putting a big sign on his head saying shoot me! If anything it makes he more vunerable then being on foot. As he is likely to have his chariot shot out and then to be targetted by other shooting. Witht he high cost of choas chariots I would say its a waste of points, also their the fact that you generally don't want to get your wizards into combat so the chariots offensive capabilities are almost wasted

Hywel
11-09-2005, 17:30
I would say it is unecessary to put a sorceror in a chariot. He's safer lurking around your infantry and it means you can be a little more reckless when committing your chariot. Last thing you need is your sorceror in a dangerous combat.

Only positive I can see is it makes the chariot US5 for removing rank bonuses, but then chariots aren't really fast enough to get around the flank too often...

Scythe
11-09-2005, 18:33
Meh, I wouldn't advice it. Chariots are ment to be in combat. Sorcerors aren't. Even tough Chaos Sorcerers don't drop dead immediately when engaged in combat, like other mages tend too, doesn't mean that you should dump them in a chariot and throw them at the enemy at the first possibility (and make them a great target for enemy shooting/magic as well).

Gamgee
12-09-2005, 07:05
hmm.

Well good thing I didn't start on my conversion yet! Thanks for the advice!

Markconz
12-09-2005, 08:33
Its a shame you can't embark and disembark from a chariot like 40k transports. In history many armies with chariots had a 'taxi' approach to them (eg gauls or homeric greeks, who could chuck spears at each other from their chariots, but for proper manly fighting with a swords and axes they had to jump off for a bit).

After reading Slaneesh Slave's post I've changed my mind and I'm thinking I might stick my slaneesh sorceror in a chariot (the +1 Unit strength just looks so tempting for when the chariot wins its first combined charge and is through the enemy lines). If the chariot gets cannoned then the sorceror has to walk and has a sore head but nevermind... that won't happen every game. I wouldn't have the sorceror model permamently fixed in the chariot - does a 25mm base fit into the back of the current chaos warrior chariot? Actually a better idea might be just to paint up a duplicate 'on foot and wounded version' for when his chariot breaks....

Scythe
12-09-2005, 08:52
A friend of mine has a beastmen tzeentch sorceror on disk who he can also detach and stick in a normal 25mm base. It's not as nice as seperate ones, but it works well.

Sanjuro
12-09-2005, 15:06
Putting characters on chariots is unfortunately a very cool concept. The first chaos character I bought I mounted on a chariot, thinking it would be a really cool idea. Sure it was cool, but it was also too many victory points into something that is a bit unreliable.

I ended up ripping him off. For pure theme, this idea is great indeed. For game purpouses... I'm not sure. Gut instinct says no. Of course there will be times where it will work and actually be very tactically sound, but I think that it generally will be more 'mweh' than 'yeah' to use your own phrase.

Scythe
12-09-2005, 18:09
Shame at times. A character on a chariot looks quite cool in most cases. However, unless you play Tomb Kings, it will also put a large sign of 'shoot me' on their foreheads. Generally speaking, characters in chariots are too vulnerable for my taste.

Trunks
12-09-2005, 18:12
Why don't you just put your Sorcerers on horseback? They don't need line of sight for most of their spells, so you can just run them around behind your big regiments as you advance (or next to your horsemen where they can't even be targetted).

Wizards on Horses are great, the mobility is really useful. It would make them more mobile than on a chariot as well.

PelsBoble
12-09-2005, 18:28
Well then he can be targeted even if hes close by the infantry. So if you want to mount him on a horse, keep him nearby knights/horsemen. If you want to have him on foot if would reccomend you going for the bray shammies. As they have movement 5 and is cheaper. Of course if your thinking of an archaons horde army its no good. Also you lose the fire lore which is nice for damage spells.

Izram
12-09-2005, 19:41
I played against a player that used 2 beastman shamans on beast chariots. It actually worked pretty well, because they can threaten flanks and arn't that many points (the character doesn't neccasarily die with the chariot and visa versa).

I think it is a fine idea, but my problem with it is that the chariots take more out of the army list than they add. Im not concerned with giving the enmy VPs for killing them, Im concerned that I wont have those extra points for more trolls, ogres etc.

If you have the points, or it is a larger game, I say try it out.

Markconz
12-09-2005, 20:28
Part of my reason for wanting to try it is that it seems like a good way of turning a sorceror into something more valuable (+1 US for the chariot is pretty big IMO). What else is a 140 point sorceror going to do but walk around in circles... If the chariot gets into a bad combat then its no good, but hopefully that won't happen. BTW do I have to pick a chariot with MOS if I'm using a sorceror with MOS?

metro_gnome
12-09-2005, 21:31
um... Izram... only great bray shamans may be mounted on chariots...
regular bray shamans have to hoof it...

PelsBoble
12-09-2005, 23:40
YE metro_gnome is correct. And it becomes a bit more dangerous having your GBS in a chariot concerning the point cost.

But in this case i would just put my sorc in the marauders if some mage hunters were coming.

Hywel
13-09-2005, 00:18
BTW do I have to pick a chariot with MOS if I'm using a sorceror with MOS?

Yes.

This is something of a problem if you plan on slaanesh as you can no longer declare flee as a charge reaction - an option that chariots may wish they had, particularly if they contain an expensive sorceror.

Izram
13-09-2005, 01:07
um... Izram... only great bray shamans may be mounted on chariots...
regular bray shamans have to hoof it...

Yea, he counted one as a chaos sorcerer or something. I couldn't quite tell because he was playing a carnival of chaos themed army and everything had jesters caps etc. I just guess it was two shamans.

Either way, putting a character in a chariot is nice, but I dont think its worth the points.

MarcoPollo
13-09-2005, 20:55
I started off buying a pointing tzeetch hero's on Tzeetch chariots and found that they were a huge point sink. All that painting seemed to go to waste as I gave a few to my younger cousin.

But hearing of the slaanesh with the beserker sword kind of makes a little bit of sense now. He is not very vulnerable if he is in a chariot with 2+ save and can hold his own on a charge with that beserker sword. The imune to psychlogy is also nice against fear and can hold his own against bats and ghouls etc.

Lets see how the points work: Level 2 sorceror, with mark of slaanesh and beserker sword is 160 pts. Add a slaanesh chariot for 140 pts, and you are paying 300 pts. That is a bit much (15% of a 200 pt army).

Compared to tzeetch hero on the chariot ~375 pts its is better, but not by much. Still a points sink.

Markconz
13-09-2005, 23:09
Lets see how the points work: Level 2 sorceror, with mark of slaanesh and beserker sword is 160 pts. Add a slaanesh chariot for 140 pts, and you are paying 300 pts. That is a bit much (15% of a 200 pt army).


Way I see it is this - a chariot costs 120, plus 10 for MOS. Used in combined charges it should smash its way through the enemy 2nd turn and then be available for flank attacks.

A Slaneesh Lvl 2 sorceror costs 140, without weapons. Used by himself all he does is cast spells and avoid combat... expensive way to get magic - shame to waste his WS, I, T4, S4 and chaos armour. Stick him in a chariot and you get a bit more use out of him, whether you give him a weapon or not. The big advantage is that the chariot is able to negate ranks - that's pretty huge.

Cannonballs ruin the chariots day, but the sorceror will still be able to cast spells and avoid combat... like he would do if he was on foot anyway.

jma037
14-09-2005, 03:35
In my army list, see here http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10993

I can't decide between a small beastherd for the sharman or a chariot. Please take a look at the list and comment.

I think the chariot has more punch and is more flexible. but it takes away protection for the general in form of the dogs.

So, hopefully the chariot will become a missile magnet. :evilgrin:

Comments, ideas, suggestions?

Scythe
14-09-2005, 07:39
Way I see it is this - a chariot costs 120, plus 10 for MOS. Used in combined charges it should smash its way through the enemy 2nd turn and then be available for flank attacks.

A Slaneesh Lvl 2 sorceror costs 140, without weapons. Used by himself all he does is cast spells and avoid combat... expensive way to get magic - shame to waste his WS, I, T4, S4 and chaos armour. Stick him in a chariot and you get a bit more use out of him, whether you give him a weapon or not. The big advantage is that the chariot is able to negate ranks - that's pretty huge.

Cannonballs ruin the chariots day, but the sorceror will still be able to cast spells and avoid combat... like he would do if he was on foot anyway.

You're asuming the opponent comes towarths you, which will not always be the case (chariots get an effective 21" range in 2 turns provided they charge). Problem is, a fleeing enemy ruins your day, especially as you can't flee from the counter assault, since you have the mark of slaanesh. Not a great way to spend 250-300 pts of your army...

Gamgee
14-09-2005, 12:05
Haha, the doubts are back! I planned on putting a scroll caddy in an undived chariot and give him lore of fire. That's not that expensive, is pretty good at fleeing and rallying, but perhaps the scrolls ruin his chances of decent combat (I'm losing a str5 attack for a str 4, hope for the flaming sword I guess..)

And it should look great!

Mm.. just follow the discussion further I guess..

(ps where in the rulebook can I find the improved US?)

Markconz
14-09-2005, 23:53
You're asuming the opponent comes towarths you, which will not always be the case (chariots get an effective 21" range in 2 turns provided they charge). Problem is, a fleeing enemy ruins your day, especially as you can't charge from the counter assault, since you have the mark of slaanesh. Not a great way to spend 250-300 pts of your army...

Your right of course :D It could all turn to custard.

The frontage of my first charge with chaos ogres and chaos knights is pretty wide though... it would be a big chunk of the enemy army fleeing to avoid it, and theoretically I could wangle it so that the chariot would be over an inch behind the main line of failed charges (thus safe from countercharges except by very skinny units...)

Scythe
15-09-2005, 10:11
Could work... just watch out for those saurus characters with leopard charm and great weapon, or vampire thralls with wolf form and great weapon...

Markconz
02-10-2005, 23:46
Ok its too late... I've gone ahead and done it... Lvl2 slaneesh sorceror in chariot. Converted painted and ready to go. Three games so far, and a tournament in 3 weeks.

First game - chariot in combo with exalted daemon hero, smacked over opponents chariot turn 2. Then slowly turned around and returned to the fighting, and charged an engaged enemy marauder unit in the flank, unfortunately even this did not break the marauders (rolled 1 for impact hits) and my chariot was in turn charged by chosen nurgle knights. The nurgle knight champion challenged the Sorceror and killed him (sorceror had to accept (boo!)). However the Sorceror had caused the nurgle champion to kill 5 of his own unit (delectable torture spell). Game was lost but the chariot did well, and only took 1 wound (even after two rounds attacked in flank by 5 chosen!).

Game 2... an awful game against chaos undivided. Chariot ran around threatenening flanks of big infantry blocks, but didn't get an opportunity to charge. The chariot made the enemy very cautious in advancing his powerful chaos warriors and marauders against my weaker infantry units though. US 5 is cool. Unfortunately I lost where I was counting on winning (exalted daemon killed by a spawn, my chosen killed by normal chaos knights... damn), so the game was lost.

Game 3. Against Empire, Chariot is hit by a mortar (only S6 - phew), and loses three wounds. Then the chariot charges the enemy line together with the rest of my units, and the entire enemy army flees off the board turn 4. Chariot worked fine, and wasn't too slow despite hiding first turn to avoid an empire cannon (which was silenced by furies turn 2). The enemy volley gun blowing up really helped in this game.

All in all - have to try and avoid a situation where the sorceror is the only character around to accept a challenge. Maybe I will give him back his combat familiar to help make sure enemy units break rather than stick...