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Captain Stern
10-11-2007, 04:00
Could this weapon kill a C'Tan? I can't see why not.

azimaith
10-11-2007, 05:59
What the heck is a soul spear and how is it any different from any other warp charged spear. IE the one that stabbed the nightbringer in his fight with khaine and failed to kill him at all.

Iracundus
10-11-2007, 06:48
The Soul Spear is an artifact weapon (ie: story gimmick) in the Soul Drinkers novels supposedly left to the Chapter by Rogal Dorn, as the Soul Drinkers are derived from the old Imperial Fists Legion. It is described as similar to Darth Maul's lightsaber except that its "blades" are contained vortices, akin to the effect of a vortex grenade or vortex missile.

As for affecting the C'tan, I'd say no effect more than the usual breaking of the necrodermis. The only weapons even suggested as being capable of permanently killing one are the Blackstone Fortresses. None of the Vortex weapons in Apoc for example would permanently destroy a C'tan, so there is no reason to suppose the Soul Spear would be any different particularly given its smaller power compared to a Vortex missile.

Marstfu
10-11-2007, 10:32
If a vortex grenade can't, then neither can the soulspear.

Noserenda
10-11-2007, 15:55
Id say the Soulspear wouldnt, although it would trash the Necrodermis but if caught in a full on Vortex explosion I certainly wouldnt rate the odds of seeing that Ctan again, he might be amagdl337 but now hes trapped in the Warp...

Iracundus
10-11-2007, 16:03
There is no evidence whatsoever that a full scale Vortex would suck the C'tan into the warp. Other things like wraithcannon, d-cannons, even superheavy Cobra tank D-cannons work on similar principles and they do no more than destroy the necrodermis.

Noserenda
10-11-2007, 16:10
Theres no evidence they wouldnt kill them either... Given that a vortex hit is total immersion in Warp Space, not having chunks torn off you like a Wraithcannon or Soul Spear I cant see any good reason the Ctan would escape.

The Cobra I dont know, cant remember if it was a beam or Blast weapon.

Kage2020
10-11-2007, 16:39
To be honest, there are enough discussions about whether the Eldar are going to survive with all the "battles" that are going on and they die with normal weapons. If you have one of a handful of entities "dying" just because someone manages to hit them with a warp weapon? Well, what kind of arguments/discussions would ensue then?

:D

Kage

SonofUltramar
10-11-2007, 18:10
*puts fingers in ears*

La la la la la, Soul Drinkers don't really exist, why didn't Rogal Dorn or more to the point The Emperor use such a weapon against someone, oh i don't know lets say Horus? Because its a silly plot device invented by Ben Counter to wrap up his first Soul Drinkers book

now if you'll excure me

La la la la la they don't exist la la la la they don't exist...

Captain Stern
10-11-2007, 18:20
Son of Ultramar: *puts fingers in ears*

La la la la la, Soul Drinkers don't really exist, why didn't Rogal Dorn or more to the point The Emperor use such a weapon against someone, oh i don't know lets say Horus? Because its a silly plot device invented by Ben Counter to wrap up his first Soul Drinkers book

now if you'll excure me

La la la la la they don't exist la la la la they don't exist...

to me this implies there were many other super weapons like this used during the great crusade and the horus heresy. It fits in nicely with the idea that the 31st millenium was a 'mightier age' all round.

That's the way I look at it.

The book did suck something awful though.

Kage2020
10-11-2007, 18:53
Well, that's part of the whole approach to the 40k universe, as mentioned in the "Shaman" thread. If things were mighty back in the Great Crusade, how much mightier were they in the War in Heaven. Again, it's a common image and one that is generously applied to almost everything in the 40k universe.

Kage

azimaith
10-11-2007, 19:10
The issue with immersing a C'tan in the warp his he just phases out, as in pops into his own little pocket dimension seperate from realspace. Its not even certain a C'tan can enter the warp at all. Beyond that theres the issue of getting anywhere near the C'tan without having them eat you, or getting flayed by their legions while it sits back phased out.

The only time we even see a C'tan engaging in combat outside of the skirmish game (which instantly makes the idea of C'tan fighting there ridiculous) is against khaine. If it ain't a god and its not in your tomb then why bother sticking around?

Besides, the C'tan itself isn't matter. Hes certainly got mass and matter in the necrodermis but once that breaks the c'tan is *energy* which may not even be affected by the warp at all. (Hell the biggest warp rift, the eye of terror emits light!)

Iracundus
10-11-2007, 23:27
A Vortex isn't necessarily total immersion into the warp. Neither is a Wraithcannon or D-cannon. In the background of all these weapons, a significant amount of the damage is caused by the spatial distortion and stress ripping things apart. Furthermore, the C'tan even have a rule rendering them immune to the "instant death" portion of Wriathcannon hits, which is meant to represent being shifted over into the warp. If we go by that, and all these weapons work on a similar principle, then a C'tan wouldn't be anymore instant killed by a Vortex, at least in the sense of permanent death. A Vortex missile as given in Apoc would instantly rip apart a C'tan's necrodermis but wouldn't kill it permanently.

DantesInferno
10-11-2007, 23:47
Well, that's part of the whole approach to the 40k universe, as mentioned in the "Shaman" thread. If things were mighty back in the Great Crusade, how much mightier were they in the War in Heaven. Again, it's a common image and one that is generously applied to almost everything in the 40k universe.

Kage

Not always, though. We're told that during the War in Heaven, the Eldar were eons away from developing plasma weaponry, and that they fought with swords and spears.


A Vortex isn't necessarily total immersion into the warp. Neither is a Wraithcannon or D-cannon. In the background of all these weapons, a significant amount of the damage is caused by the spatial distortion and stress ripping things apart. Furthermore, the C'tan even have a rule rendering them immune to the "instant death" portion of Wriathcannon hits, which is meant to represent being shifted over into the warp. If we go by that, and all these weapons work on a similar principle, then a C'tan wouldn't be anymore instant killed by a Vortex, at least in the sense of permanent death. A Vortex missile as given in Apoc would instantly rip apart a C'tan's necrodermis but wouldn't kill it permanently.

That's a fairly large assumption though. Just because the C'tan aren't shifted into the warp by Wraithcannon doesn't mean that a larger and more powerful warp-transportation weapon (like a Vortex missile) wouldn't be able to shift one into the warp and kill it off permanently..

Kage2020
10-11-2007, 23:48
Were not the original descriptions somewhat different to that, Iracundus? It's a wargame mechanic thing, so I personally don't give a darn whether they've retconned the descriptions of the weapons. Just thought that I would test the recollection thing. ;)


Not always, though. We're told that during the War in Heaven, the Eldar were eons away from developing plasma weaponry, and that they fought with swords and spears.
I think that in this case there is an issue of competing imagery and theme? In this case the theme is as I describe, though the imagery is more contentious. That is, do you really believe that they actually used swords? If so, then this is yet another theme, i.e. C'tan vs. Old Ones, or technology vs. magic. (And one can get into Lord of the Rings concepts as a result.)

Not to in any way devalue your justifications of a given bit of 'fluff' DantesInferno. Just commenting on some of the themes, since I feel that they are just as important as the justification that we as individuals map onto our own interpretations of the 40k universe.

Kage

Iracundus
10-11-2007, 23:55
It's an even larger assumption to suppose a D-cannon or Vortex would be any different, given all these weapons work on similar principles. Also the construction of multiple Blackstone Fortresses meant to be used in unison against the C'tan suggests the level of power needed. Even then it is never stated whether the final death of a C'tan was to be accomplished via dumping it in to the warp, smothering it in ridiculous amounts of warp energy, or by catching it in the process of feeding from a sun and making it go nova.

DantesInferno
11-11-2007, 00:10
I think that in this case there is an issue of competing imagery and theme? In this case the theme is as I describe, though the imagery is more contentious. That is, do you really believe that they actually used swords? If so, then this is yet another theme, i.e. C'tan vs. Old Ones, or technology vs. magic. (And one can get into Lord of the Rings concepts as a result.)

Not to in any way devalue your justifications of a given bit of 'fluff' DantesInferno. Just commenting on some of the themes, since I feel that they are just as important as the justification that we as individuals map onto our own interpretations of the 40k universe.

I don't have a problem with the Eldar using, for the most part, mundane swords and spears during the War in Heaven. After all, the Necrons were slaughtering them mercilessly... I just don't think we should believe that everything was better in the War in Heaven. While the Necrons and Old Ones may have been capable of things beyond the galaxy's current inhabitants, it's entirely possible that the Eldar of the time weren't anywhere near as advanced as they later become.

Mind you, this comment comes from an Imperial Inquisitor, so it might not necessarily be 100% accurate.


It's an even larger assumption to suppose a D-cannon or Vortex would be any different, given all these weapons work on similar principles. Also the construction of multiple Blackstone Fortresses meant to be used in unison against the C'tan suggests the level of power needed. Even then it is never stated whether the final death of a C'tan was to be accomplished via dumping it in to the warp, smothering it in ridiculous amounts of warp energy, or by catching it in the process of feeding from a sun and making it go nova.

Sure, D-cannon and Vortex work on similar principles. I think the much larger scale they work on, and the increased destructiveness involved, might also be relevant, though....

Also, remember that the Blackstones weren't designed to kill any old C'tan, but the Dragon, the strongest C'tan, at the height of its powers.

azimaith
11-11-2007, 00:15
I think a couple things are worth pointing out.
1: A spear in the hands of an eldar can punch through a battle tank. Thus mundane is only relative to whose using it.
2: The destructiveness is all well and good vs the necrodermis, but the c'tan isn't the necrodermis, its a massive energy being and as such it doesn't matter how destructive it is. Considering with a wraithcannon it pulls enemies bodily into the and that a C'tan is incapable of being instantly killed by it, that you can't pull a c'tan into the warp at all.

The warp obviously damages the necrodermis heavily and probably could damage a c'tan in the right scenario, but if all it took was a vortex weapon or a d-cannon then there wouldn't be c'tan running around at all.

Iracundus
11-11-2007, 00:31
What do we know about the C'tan:

In their natural state, they are immensely huge diffuse "energy" beings so huge that they originally had trouble even perceiving things as small as a planet. Now they are crammed into what is for them an incredibly small volume of space in their necrodermis.

We know that for whatever reason, either inherent immunity or via some effort to anchor itself in realspace, the C'tan in a necrodermis is not vulnerable to being translated directly into the warp by a Wraithcannon although it takes unavoidable damage to the necrodermis, perhaps from the spatial distortion. We also know that if a necrodermis is destroyed, the C'tan is released back into its natural form, which is too diffuse to affect or be affected by the remainder of the battle in any significant manner.

As written, a Vortex missile accomplishes the removal of a C'tan from the battlefield, however the background explanation is likelier to be that it simply instantly destroys the necrodermis. The C'tan ends up being instantly released into its natural form. At such a scale, the warp hole from a vortex is insignificantly tiny, even if it does suck in energy, and the C'tan is so diffuse and huge. If the C'tan in the past could overlook entire planets, one little missile blast on the surface isn't going to faze it.

DantesInferno
11-11-2007, 00:32
I think a couple things are worth pointing out.
1: A spear in the hands of an eldar can punch through a battle tank. Thus mundane is only relative to whose using it.

A spear specially designed to allow its user to channel destructive psychic power isn't a mundane spear...


2: The destructiveness is all well and good vs the necrodermis, but the c'tan isn't the necrodermis, its a massive energy being and as such it doesn't matter how destructive it is. Considering with a wraithcannon it pulls enemies bodily into the and that a C'tan is incapable of being instantly killed by it, that you can't pull a c'tan into the warp at all.

Whether or not a C'tan is capable of being pulled into the Warp and instantly killed is an open question. All we know is that Wraithcannon, which are relatively small warp-based weapons, aren't powerful enough to kill two of the most powerful of the C'tan.

If much larger Warp-based weapons were used against the weaker C'tan floating around in the War in Heaven, they may well have been capable of killing the C'tan outright.


The warp obviously damages the necrodermis heavily and probably could damage a c'tan in the right scenario, but if all it took was a vortex weapon or a d-cannon then there wouldn't be c'tan running around at all.

Well, firstly we don't know what vortex technology was around and deployed against the C'tan during the War in Heaven (beyond the Blackstones).

Secondly, there aren't that many C'tan running around at all. There were lots and lots during the War in Heaven, and now there are four. The C'tan themselves ate quite a few of their comrades, but its not impossible (in fact it's probable) that the Old Ones and their warrior races were able to pick off some of the weaker C'tan using their warp-based tech.

BrotherAdso
11-11-2007, 00:50
A spear specially designed to allow its user to channel destructive psychic power isn't a mundane spear...


Actually, for the Eldar, in the War in Heaven, aided by their creators, it might well be. The reason I don't entirely buy the image of medieval elf-legions versus necron-tech is based on the idea of the War in Heaven as presented in the fluff. The War, as I read it in the Eldar + Necron dexes, was massively interstellar, and so were the empires involved. So if the Eldar and their Masters had sufficient warp-tech to fight on many worlds and fronts, it makes sense they would have 'mystical' swords and spears. Secondly, the Swords of Vaul and other such artifacts are mystical weapons presented as the pinnacle of Eldar weaponcraft -- suggesting that even basic weaponcraft was sorcerous to some degree during the War.

I agree that it's hard to tell. As Kage said, though, it seems better to err on the side of the image in line with the theme (magic v technology).



Whether or not a C'tan is capable of being pulled into the Warp and instantly killed is an open question. All we know is that Wraithcannon, which are relatively small warp-based weapons, aren't powerful enough to kill two of the most powerful of the C'tan.

If much larger Warp-based weapons were used against the weaker C'tan floating around in the War in Heaven, they may well have been capable of killing the C'tan outright.

Exactly right. To analogize: an automatic rifle, even loaded with explosive/armor piercing bullets, cannot penetrate a tank. However, a VERY LARGE gun, say, a cannon, can. A small warp pop-gun is very different animal from a vortex missile.

Hmmm. On the same topic, how immortal ARE the C'Tan? Is it possible that the last few remaining are much tougher than their predecessors, Highlander-style? They do, after all, live off of energy.

-Adso

Noserenda
11-11-2007, 00:56
As has been said, the smaller "Vortex" weapons work by distortion and mashing things up, like an exotic bullet (o doom) but the larger Vortex Grenades and Missiles literally open a hole which things get sucked into and munched on.

Therefore if the Necrodermis was wholesale immeresed in a Warp field theres every reason to belive the Ctan couldnt escape, after all, their freaky physics defying powers have no effect in warpspace which is where they would find themselves.

Even if they are infinity big energy beings, they get released inside the warp, where their size is irrelevant anyway.

Oh and quoting the tabletop immunity of Ctan to wraith cannons is fairly pointless, as the tabletop rules for vortex grenades/missiles specifically state dead dead dead whatever you are (barring super heavies).

And now i have to go, finish this later

Iracundus
11-11-2007, 01:07
The C'tan are currently almost at their nadir in terms of personal raw power. The Nightbringer for example was on the verge of starving to death when he finally escaped from his tomb.

The Deceiver from his description in the Codex was never one of the powerful C'tan in terms of raw power.


The rules for "instant death" on the tabletop do not translate into actual "death" in the background. C'tan for example are vulnerable to being turned into "chaos spawn" in terms of game rules and thus being removed instantly as casualties, but in the FAQ it is explained as them temporarily losing control of the necrodermis for the duration of the battle. Therefore just because a Vortex inflicts model removal on the table doesn't equate to the C'tan being permanently dead or sucked into the warp.

The fluff for Vortex weaponry and Wraithcannons and D-cannons all have them opening a portal to the warp, but of varying sizes. A Wraithcannon's portal though is still potentially large enough to destroy a Carnifex in one shot, and a Carnifex is of comparable size to a necrodermis. This suggests that it isn't simply a matter of warp hole size.

It is also stated in the background that a large portion of the damage is from spatial distortion. That is why targets like superheavies and large Tyranid beasts take damage but are not instantly destroyed. In the earlier discussions in another thread about the mechanics of Vortex weaponry, the consensus was that a Vortex doesn't necessarily suck things into the warp in intact whole form. It was far more likely to tear things apart and then suck the fragments in. When you start tearing apart a necrodermis, you release the C'tan, and a C'tan released into realspace isn't going to be sucked into a tiny battlefield hole any more than you are likely to be sucked down your bathtub drain.

DantesInferno
11-11-2007, 01:21
The C'tan are currently almost at their nadir in terms of personal raw power. The Nightbringer for example was on the verge of starving to death when he finally escaped from his tomb.

The Deceiver from his description in the Codex was never one of the powerful C'tan in terms of raw power.

On the other hand, the four C'tan currently alive in the galaxy are by far the most powerful of their kind (with the exception of the Deceiver, whose survival was down to cunning).


It is also stated in the background that a large portion of the damage is from spatial distortion. That is why targets like superheavies and large Tyranid beasts take damage but are not instantly destroyed. In the earlier discussions in another thread about the mechanics of Vortex weaponry, the consensus was that a Vortex doesn't necessarily suck things into the warp in intact whole form. It was far more likely to tear things apart and then suck the fragments in. When you start tearing apart a necrodermis, you release the C'tan, and a C'tan released into realspace isn't going to be sucked into a tiny battlefield hole any more than you are likely to be sucked down your bathtub drain.

Again, these are big assumptions, and likely are dependent on the type of warp-based weapon employed. 2nd ed Vortex grenades, for instance, destroy things by sucking them into warp space where they are turned into the very stuff of the warp. No mention of tearing things apart first.

And even if the Necrodermis was torn apart, it's entirely possible that the released essence of the C'tan wouldn't be able to escape the vortex anyway.

One.Fit.Outcast.
11-11-2007, 01:33
What is a blackstone fortress and what was so special about the Dragon C'tan anyway?

DantesInferno
11-11-2007, 01:51
What is a blackstone fortress and what was so special about the Dragon C'tan anyway?

The Blackstone Fortresses (or Talismans of Vaul) were weapons deployed against the C'tan in the War In Heaven. You can read about them <here> (http://uk.games-workshop.com/necrons/eldar-mythology/3/) or go to <here> (http://www.specialist-games.com/battlefleetgothic/Default.asp), download the Battlefleet Gothic rulebook, and read about the Gothic War, where they featured prominently.

The Dragon was the most powerful of the C'tan, and had the most powerful Necron servants. He's currently yet to wake up from hibernation, and his whereabouts are "unknown".

Kage2020
11-11-2007, 02:21
Mind you, this comment comes from an Imperial Inquisitor, so it might not necessarily be 100% accurate.
What would be the Imperial Inquisitor who is talking - interpreting - event that happened tens of millions of years before him have as a basis of solid fact, more so from a 'thing' that is based on nothing than... well, nothing.

Aye, questioning the accuracy of those statements is about the least that you can do. ;)

(Of course, that applies universally. Thus we get back into the nature of GW hobbyism, the lack of resolution and, well, the idea that perhaps 100% "freedom" is also 100% pointlessness.)

Kage

Captain Stern
11-11-2007, 02:30
Dance, my puppets!

SonofUltramar
11-11-2007, 09:17
Not always, though. We're told that during the War in Heaven, the Eldar were eons away from developing plasma weaponry, and that they fought with swords and spears.


1: A spear in the hands of an eldar can punch through a battle tank. Thus mundane is only relative to whose using it.

The Elves during the War in Heaven are supposed to be slightly advanced High Elves, the Old Ones showed them the Webway network, the portals that let them walk between worlds. The amazing weapons were "magic" weapons, its things like this that really bug me about GW background, things have the same names and even some mighty heroes and weapons match up but they are NOT the same game universe. Sigh...