PDA

View Full Version : Kharn: Mindless Killer?



MrInsomniac
10-11-2007, 14:34
We all know and love him, but does Kharn have any hint of tactician left in him? Does he still have the ability to lead, or is it just that others follw him?

It's something I've always wondered about him, and I quite like the idea that he would still be able to win a battle through careful planning rather than just running at something shouting 'KILL! MAIM! BURN!'. What are your thoughts?

ryng_sting
10-11-2007, 15:53
Khorne hasn't driven all the rationality from him - yet - but once he hits the battlefield it's kill-maim-burn. Andy Chambers said he was part of the unholy trinity of Chaos as it was in their first army book: Kharn represents insane devotion to Chaos, Ahriman represents total denial, and Abaddon is somewhere in between.

Noserenda
10-11-2007, 16:06
Id say he really is, hes got the knowhow, but hes not using it "consciously" hes ONLY concerned with Killing. If you can get ahold of the Short Story Bill King did on Kharn its rather good.

Logarithm Udgaur
10-11-2007, 16:11
From what I know of Kharn he is quite intelligent. He just sees most thing that others might call tactics (laying in ambush, flank attacks, enfilades, etc..) as the recourse of the weak. As all true devoties of the Blood God know, a strait up, man to man fight is the only way. For more info see the short story 'The Wrath of Kharn' in Let the Galaxy Burn.

Edit: The aforementioned William King story.

Champsguy
10-11-2007, 16:53
Kharne understands tactics. He's definitely not stupid. He recognizes when people use feints against him. He doesn't get caught in ambushes. He can plan an invasion. Chances are, though, that any battle plan drawn up by Kharne will include a very aggressive assault on the enemy. Kharne would prefer to chop and slaughter rather than sit around and wait.

Tonberry
10-11-2007, 17:10
Looking at the short passage in the new Chaos Codex, Kharn shows strategy in that he is able to rescue his Beserkers from being pinned down, then shows a complete lack of in that he then kills them all.

Captain Stern
10-11-2007, 17:30
In the novel Farseer (also by Bill King) a reference is made to him commanding a ship or a fleet of ships (I forget which).


Of course, it's hard to marry the idea of intelligent Khornate Warlords who've survived thousands of years of battle with the idea that they're all frothing mad men who charge into bullets. That's my problem with Khorne's depiction nowadays i.e. Anything other than charge in blindly is seen as weak (oh please). Even in Slaves to Darkness when Khorne was the evil, murderous, indiscriminate blood good, there were still stories where, for example, an army of Tzeentch was being trounced by the more disciplined, tactically sound army of Khorne.

The pestilent 1
10-11-2007, 18:33
Looking at the short passage in the new Chaos Codex, Kharn shows strategy in that he is able to rescue his Beserkers from being pinned down, then shows a complete lack of in that he then kills them all.

From what I can remember of him he considers anything but total devotion to be worthy of Scorn (Khorne's weakling, pansy sister) and as such tends to kill them, maim them or burn them.
I think he burnt half the World Eaters and Emperors children on Skarathaxadoodle (Yeah, I don't remember how to spell it) because they went into cover as the long nights fell or something.

Apparently seeking cover from the cold is weak. so he burnt the cover...

ArtificerArmour
10-11-2007, 20:47
Skalathrax...a -doodle

It's stupid what they've done to him. Why would anyone follow him, he'd just kill them as soon as they met them. They've made him out to be a mindless killer that would have obviously got himself killed by now.

Kurn "Sir, we've spotted a hive fleet coming towards our planet, what's your orders?"
Kharn "BURN KILL MAIM!"
*slaughters entire bridge crew*
*slaughters entire ship*
*jumps out of nearest airlock at hivefleet with his chainaxe*
"BURN KILL MAIM!"

Khorne protects...oh wait no he doesn't, he encourages his men to top themselves when they run out of skulls, somehow Kharn can't notice friend from foe, but can resist cutting off his own head.

Ivan Stupidor
10-11-2007, 20:53
Khorne protects...oh wait no he doesn't, he encourages his men to top themselves when they run out of skulls, somehow Kharn can't notice friend from foe, but can resist cutting off his own head.

Given that Kharn was supposedly killed and ressurected during the Horus Heresy, I wouldn't be surprised if he's tried that at least once.

Tehkonrad
10-11-2007, 20:55
Lol
wow AA now I see what your sig-hype is about

Commissar Molotov
10-11-2007, 21:00
I think you might need to draw a distinction between Kharn on the battlefield and Kharn off the battlefield. To say he is a mindless killer would simply suggest his entire time since his induction has been a red haze. I'd be inclined to suggest that he's relatively lucid outside of battle, but once in battle, the red haze descends and he's not totally responsible for his actions. It's worth remembering the psycho-implants inside his brain might well have a degree of culpability there.

I'm not so sure that the Berserkers can be used as the template for all Khorne worshippers, just as the Rubric Marines of the Thousand Sons aren't the only Tzeentchian Marines in the entire galaxy. That's something decent the new CSM codex has instituted, I think. There ought to be a distinction between worshipping Khorne and being a Khorne Berserker. :)

Tegian
10-11-2007, 21:15
In Galaxy in Flames you see abit of the berserker/tactican combo. Captain Erlhen (sp?) of the World Eaters quite sanely orders his warriors around ... But as soon as the battle is joined he charges Angron :rolleyes:

Nazguire
10-11-2007, 21:25
In Galaxy in Flames you see abit of the berserker/tactican combo. Captain Erlhen (sp?) of the World Eaters quite sanely orders his warriors around ... But as soon as the battle is joined he charges Angron :rolleyes:

He only charged Angron because he knew he was dead already. That was the point, to go down fighting even though he knew he was going to be butchered in seconds. *which he was, by a half dozen World Eaters at once*

Supremearchmarshal
10-11-2007, 21:38
The World Eaters army list in Slaves to Darkness had them go berserk only when within 12" of an enemy - to me this is the best rule they ever had, and it's exactly how I picture Khorne Berserkers and Kharn. Also, its likely Kharn kills his own not only because of bloodlust, but also because of the influence of Gorechild, the daemon weapon.


I'm not so sure that the Berserkers can be used as the template for all Khorne worshippers, just as the Rubric Marines of the Thousand Sons aren't the only Tzeentchian Marines in the entire galaxy. That's something decent the new CSM codex has instituted, I think. There ought to be a distinction between worshipping Khorne and being a Khorne Berserker

It does make sense until you realize that the new codex prevents Berserkers from riding bikes or using jump packs or wearing terminator armour...

Nazguire
10-11-2007, 21:46
The World Eaters army list in Slaves to Darkness had them go berserk only when within 12" of an enemy - to me this is the best rule they ever had, and it's exactly how I picture Khorne Berserkers and Kharn. Also, its likely Kharn kills his own not only because of bloodlust, but also because of the influence of Gorechild, the daemon weapon.

It does make sense until you realize that the new codex prevents Berserkers from riding bikes or using jump packs or wearing terminator armour...

I never thought that Gorechild was a daemon weapon. Always assumed it was just a bloody big axe that he constructed during the Great Crusade. It's been portrayed as much throughout the various editions.

ArtificerArmour
10-11-2007, 21:54
Also, its likely Kharn kills his own not only because of bloodlust, but also because of the influence of Gorechild, the daemon weapon.


Ah, Gorechild isn't a daemon weapon, it was manufactured before the heresy using the teeth of somekind of overeggerated beast opn the planet Luther Macintyre.

The thing is, very little is said about berzerkers off the battlefield. Just that they hunger for blood. Of course, GW "biggup fluff" suggests Kharns the biggest, baddest berzerker EVAR and is so hardcore he kills anything he can and even killed the organisation of his legion in one night with a weapon berzerkers can't even legally take. The way of khorne is not assualt weapons! ITS AXES WITH CHAINS ON! KILL BURN MAIM!

Now, it says that most followers of chaos band together except for a handful of khorne followers that troop off on their own. To be honest, it heavily suggests kharn is one of these types, who just wanders off and appears at will to kill things.

I see him much like a tetsuo type character from the fluff, in that people see him wreaking havoc, he gains followers who are foolish enough to run behind him, then he ends up killing them all in a mad spree. Which I feel is a grave injustice. I'd prefer it that he was a cold, calculated killer who can unite the warbands of khorne, and instead of just killing everything that moves he can actually guide them to objectives making them a much more dangerous foe. Just on the battlefield, he kinda loses it...

Basically, Kharn is not a leader in the fluff - he's a psychotic who kills anything and would be better represented as moves full distance in a direction determined by rolling a scatter dice, or charging the nearest unit to hand friend or foe.

Supremearchmarshal
10-11-2007, 22:07
Ah, Gorechild isn't a daemon weapon, it was manufactured before the heresy using the teeth of somekind of overeggerated beast opn the planet Luther Macintyre.

Hm... I've just checked and interestingly, Wrath of Kharn by Bill King states it is a Daemon weapon while the chaos codex states it's an ancient chainaxe. :confused:

Gimp
10-11-2007, 22:08
Given that Kharn was supposedly killed and ressurected during the Horus Heresy, I wouldn't be surprised if he's tried that at least once.

There was an old short story on how kharn got killed at the emperors palace.

it starts out with sigismund of the Imperial Fists in his "emperors champion" armour. he fights kharn falls over then impales kharn when he lifts his axe.

then later i guess he got brought back to life.

Nazguire
10-11-2007, 22:11
There was an old short story on how kharn got killed at the emperors palace.

it starts out with sigismund of the Imperial Fists in his "emperors champion" armour. he fights kharn falls over then impales kharn when he lifts his axe.

then later i guess he got brought back to life.

The Emperor's Champion kills the Chaos Champion? Makes sense :p

Misanthrope
10-11-2007, 23:23
I've always preferred seeing the Berzerkers and Worldeaters and followers of Khorne not as mindless bloodthirsty beasts, but rather psychotic bloodthirsty geniuses -- a la Hannibal Lecter. I see their "society" as being one of martial pride, discipline, and a sort of romantic fetishism with blood and death. King of a cross between Vampires, Klingons, Samurai, and Conan the Barbarian. On the battlefield, they are single-mindedly obsessed with combat and violence and killing, while keeping in mind that running headlong into a wall of plasma will kill them and thus end their chances of carrying out violence for Khorne. Off the battlefield I see lots of fighting, tournaments, tests of power and strength and stuff (ie when not at war, Berzerkers are in a state of 24 hour Fight Club).

But yeah, Kharn is definately no leader, atleast not anymore... those who do follow him know their own death probably awaits as a result, but they accept that as yet another sacrifice for Khorne, and an acceptable cost for working with such a devoted follower of the Blood God.

Brother Handro
10-11-2007, 23:38
Hm... I've just checked and interestingly, Wrath of Kharn by Bill King states it is a Daemon weapon while the chaos codex states it's an ancient chainaxe.

Surely it can be both, fluff-wise, Gorechild would have just started out as a uber-chainaxe and then been possessed by a daemon at some point after the Heresy.

Captain Stern
11-11-2007, 02:35
I've always preferred seeing the Berzerkers and Worldeaters and followers of Khorne not as mindless bloodthirsty beasts, but rather psychotic bloodthirsty geniuses -- a la Hannibal Lecter. I see their "society" as being one of martial pride, discipline, and a sort of romantic fetishism with blood and death. King of a cross between Vampires, Klingons, Samurai, and Conan the Barbarian. On the battlefield, they are single-mindedly obsessed with combat and violence and killing, while keeping in mind that running headlong into a wall of plasma will kill them and thus end their chances of carrying out violence for Khorne. Off the battlefield I see lots of fighting, tournaments, tests of power and strength and stuff (ie when not at war, Berzerkers are in a state of 24 hour Fight Club).

But yeah, Kharn is definately no leader, atleast not anymore... those who do follow him know their own death probably awaits as a result, but they accept that as yet another sacrifice for Khorne, and an acceptable cost for working with such a devoted follower of the Blood God.

To me at least this is how it should be.

The Warmaster
11-11-2007, 04:08
I wouldn't say that he's become a completely mindless killer. I'd say he can probably keep it together long enough to make some sort of deal with the champions that he supports. And then the "KILL! MAIM! BURN!" comes into play.

If the World Eaters had truly sunk to the level of psychotic madness that Games Workshop background depicts them as having done, then there wouldn't be a single World Eaters Marine left. I particularly like Misanthrope's theory of them having a kind of 24-hour Fight Club lifestyle outside of battle, which seems quite fitting, as opposed to the "ZOMG KIL DEM ALLZ!!!!11onetwenty11!" lifestyle that they've apparently adopted.


Skalathrax...a -doodle

It's stupid what they've done to him. Why would anyone follow him, he'd just kill them as soon as they met them. They've made him out to be a mindless killer that would have obviously got himself killed by now.

Kurn "Sir, we've spotted a hive fleet coming towards our planet, what's your orders?"
Kharn "BURN KILL MAIM!"
*slaughters entire bridge crew*
*slaughters entire ship*
*jumps out of nearest airlock at hivefleet with his chainaxe*
"BURN KILL MAIM!"

Khorne protects...oh wait no he doesn't, he encourages his men to top themselves when they run out of skulls, somehow Kharn can't notice friend from foe, but can resist cutting off his own head.

You just got me a new signature.

- N.

WorLord
11-11-2007, 05:58
I don't see a problem w/ Kharn having good strategic/tactical skills. He plans out his attacks to place himself in the best possible location to score some kills (without getting shot to pieces), moves out to the battlefield, then goes berserk...
Armies shouldn't have too much problem recruiting him - promise him lots of targets, get him close to the battle, then stand WAY back.
Maybe chaos leaders use him like the imperium uses eversor assassins - keep him in cryosleep until you are ready to deploy him, start the thawing process, and step back...way back...
Khornates can ride bikes, etc. It's just when they cross that line into berserker status that they lose all their toys. "Brother Fred, time to change the oil in your bike." "NO! MUST KILL!" "Ok then. Brother Steve, you get the bike today."

brother alinski
11-11-2007, 08:26
I agree with Misanthrope. Its more likely there in a constant fight club. Kharn is deffinatly not a leader, hes a worrior an elite. he lives to test himself in combat. to kill or be killed. and those that he sees as being weak or hidding away from death dont desearve to live.

Johnator
11-11-2007, 10:43
Skalathrax...a -doodle

It's stupid what they've done to him. Why would anyone follow him, he'd just kill them as soon as they met them. They've made him out to be a mindless killer that would have obviously got himself killed by now.

Kurn "Sir, we've spotted a hive fleet coming towards our planet, what's your orders?"
Kharn "BURN KILL MAIM!"
*slaughters entire bridge crew*
*slaughters entire ship*
*jumps out of nearest airlock at hivefleet with his chainaxe*
"BURN KILL MAIM!"

Khorne protects...oh wait no he doesn't, he encourages his men to top themselves when they run out of skulls, somehow Kharn can't notice friend from foe, but can resist cutting off his own head.

This is really funny stuff!

malika
11-11-2007, 22:10
I see people mentioning that warriors fully devoted to Khorne (Berzerkers) would be too mad to wear Terminator Armour, Jump Packs, Bikes, etc. I dont believe this to be the case, its simply that the armylist does this in order to create gaming balance.

Kharn is a champion and capable of leading his fellow warriors when offering out his services, however once on the battlefield he totally does his thing and isnt really the tactical/strategical general. This is something that the Chaos Codex doesnt really look into anymore, that you have independent warband but also hired forces, such as Kharn and various World Eater warbands, but also Emperor's Children warbands and so on. You have you basic Chaos force with a Lord who hires the services of these outside units. Well this doesnt have to be the norm, but it does happen a lot!

pookie
12-11-2007, 10:38
[QUOTE=Misanthrope;2081010] Off the battlefield I see lots of fighting, tournaments, tests of power and strength and stuff (ie when not at war, Berzerkers are in a state of 24 hour Fight Club).[QUOTE]


having just read a short story that included Houron Blackhart - at least his Zerks are like this, they have taken the lower parts of his flag ship and have turned it into a massive arena to fight Captured SM or other zerks/CSM.

ArtificerArmour
12-11-2007, 11:19
having just read a short story that included Houron Blackhart - at least his Zerks are like this, they have taken the lower parts of his flag ship and have turned it into a massive arena to fight Captured SM or other zerks/CSM.

What story's that?

malika
12-11-2007, 11:50
IIRC its part of Into the Maelstrom.

pookie
12-11-2007, 12:46
What story's that?

from a old copy of Inferno Mag that i have - not sure if its part of a larger story tho ( like Malika suggests).

Gorbad Ironclaw
12-11-2007, 13:01
It should be in Into the Maelstorm.

ArtificerArmour
12-11-2007, 16:49
Is it online on the BL website?

The Warmaster
12-11-2007, 23:02
Is it online on the BL website?

Right here (http://www.blacklibrary.com/pdf/maelstrom.pdf).

- N.

heretics bane
17-11-2007, 15:41
In the new chaos dex theres a group of Beserkers hiding(yes hiding) from imperial artillary and are just about to charge as they re-load(which is kinda of tatcical) but end up running out seein all the artillary personnal are dead and then get b******d by Kharn who runs around the corner.

Commander Dante
17-11-2007, 15:54
Its not the Kharn is a good leader or tacticion, it his devotion to Khorne and the promise of slaughter that draws the other khorne beserkers to him. I have no doubt that Kharn is capable of making desicions before the battle its just during it he gets so worked up. similiar to the Blood Angels Death Company i imagine, but he can snap out of it.

Nazguire
17-11-2007, 22:13
In the new chaos dex theres a group of Beserkers hiding(yes hiding) from imperial artillary and are just about to charge as they re-load(which is kinda of tatcical) but end up running out seein all the artillary personnal are dead and then get b******d by Kharn who runs around the corner.

Yeah I read that part too. Sorta made me stop and do a double take. Berserkers...hiding?

Seeming as they have always (they as in World Eaters) been portrayed as having absolutely no fear (either through conscious effort or plain insanity) of enemy fire and plunging headlong into the enemy guns (to the detriment of both the Berserkers and their opponent) it made me go 'Gah Bah?'

Supremearchmarshal
18-11-2007, 14:18
Yeah I read that part too. Sorta made me stop and do a double take. Berserkers...hiding?

Seeming as they have always (they as in World Eaters) been portrayed as having absolutely no fear (either through conscious effort or plain insanity) of enemy fire and plunging headlong into the enemy guns (to the detriment of both the Berserkers and their opponent) it made me go 'Gah Bah?'

Wasn't there an older story when Kharn kills some Berserkers for hiding in a bunker or something? Admittedly I've read it a long time ago, so I'm not sure whether it was official or fanfic.

Gdolkin
18-11-2007, 19:49
There's a Kharn short story by Bill King i think in one of the old BL compilations where his warband of berzerkers get enraptured by a Slaaneshi sorceror and turn on Kharn (and Khorne).

jhon
19-11-2007, 03:05
I've always preferred seeing the Berzerkers and Worldeaters and followers of Khorne not as mindless bloodthirsty beasts, but rather psychotic bloodthirsty geniuses -- a la Hannibal Lecter. I see their "society" as being one of martial pride, discipline, and a sort of romantic fetishism with blood and death. King of a cross between Vampires, Klingons, Samurai, and Conan the Barbarian. On the battlefield, they are single-mindedly obsessed with combat and violence and killing, while keeping in mind that running headlong into a wall of plasma will kill them and thus end their chances of carrying out violence for Khorne. Off the battlefield I see lots of fighting, tournaments, tests of power and strength and stuff (ie when not at war, Berzerkers are in a state of 24 hour Fight Club).

But yeah, Kharn is definately no leader, atleast not anymore... those who do follow him know their own death probably awaits as a result, but they accept that as yet another sacrifice for Khorne, and an acceptable cost for working with such a devoted follower of the Blood God.

argee .... and some thing to add ....
blood as a romantic things hum... can their be a female zerker ?
khrone boy dont do tournamenting stuff to other , they rather kill their pray in a stoke as clean as they can do . [ they feel no pain and they kill their pray as painless as they can be ]
kharn is the best first front line leader in 40k but he is the worst over all commander , he cant do the tactic things , but he can lead army to hell . as i see he is a very charming leader wether though his martial pride ,power or his madness , but his men is willing to charging to the most hellish battleground as long as he is the leader ..

Brian888
20-11-2007, 17:01
I tend to think Kharn DOES have a good grasp on battlefield tactics; it's just more innate, more inherent, less cerebral than what we'd be used to. He doesn't stop to think and plan out what the best avenue of assault is, for example; he intuitively knows it and acts on it instead. It's very similar to how Bloodthirsters are described in Tome of Corruption for WFRP; they ARE mindless, bloodthirsty killers, but they also are intuitively incredibly good tacticians.

redbaron998
20-11-2007, 18:42
I for one believe Kharn is a great Tactician and not a Mindless Killer untill his blood gets up. If you remember in his story about fighting the slaneesh sorcercer the Beserker next to him get shot down and cuts his own head off to apease the Blood god, Kharn as a show of respect kicks his head to where he can see Kharn kill the Slaneesh guys.

Kharn respects strength, be a good warrior and stay outa his way and youll get along just fine. Those who think warriors of Khorne are just mindless warriors dont look at the deeper picture. They want to fight...anyone who will fight them (though like orks, if noone else is around they will fight each other) those who dont fight back are considered weak and not worthy of great warriors as themselves (fluffwise Khorne Hounds kill these weaklings) Honor and Martial prowess is big with Khorne. If you take 3 Million skulls for him but they are all women and children who didnt put up a fight, but if you take 10 skulls that were of great warriors and hard earnt he will like you for it....though itll never be enough

jhon
21-11-2007, 01:28
This *does* occur (sort of). It happened in Storm of Iron when that female IG was cleaning that IW's armour, and the demon possessing it seduced her via her hatred into going all khorne-*****. She became an actual avatar of the blood god.

good point. but as far as i remember her power come from hate not martial pride[ although she has a very hard line personally ] , therefore she is a hater of khrone at most not zerker of khrone , even so those are not her power , those power come from the deamon she hosting . as i and the other mention before , being a zerker is not equal to being a mindess killer. unlike other big four follower ,they always Try to kill their pray as fast as possable .more or less i think khran is a mad zerker but not mindess freak with a chain axe , but i dont think any one want or can understand his thinking .

a zerker of khorne must have the fellowing :
fearless
martial pride
strength
rage [ not hate ]
honour

vampires are cool!
21-11-2007, 22:59
I think some people are getting fluff mixed up with rules here in places. In many cases i just cant see Kharn caring about battlefield planning to much leaving this uninteresting task to others better suited to it. Kharn is an individual who, as has been said before, an extreme example of worship and devotion - he has reason to be if you choose to believe that Khorne resurrected him after the HH.

On the battlefield? Imagine King Leonidus crossed with Voltan (Brian Blessed) and Lu Bu. Maybe a bit more violent, but you get the idea. His understanding of strategy is probably as great as any other traitor marine his age, save that he just doesn't care to much. To provide another comparison, think of Stewie when he goes to collage with Brian - his intelligence is his least precious commodity to him in the face of him having fun.

Off the battlefield? Most likely trying to test himself or working out, advancing his limits.

Supremearchmarshal
22-11-2007, 21:18
unlike other big four follower ,they always Try to kill their pray as fast as possable

With a chainaxe? Obviously that's an extremely brutal, painful and personal way to kill someone (imagine the screaming and the guts and blood flying around). I don't see Berserkers as mindless, but they certainly are brutal and sadistic. making them honourable (even chivalric) doesn't fit the general tone of 40k at all. They live to spread war and carnage - and their honour is probably limited to accepting challanges to single combat and the like.
Also, the do hate. Even the first ruleset for the World Eaters had them hate all loyalist Space Marines (it was a special rule).

As for Kharn, although I'd wish it was different, the rulebook describes him as "a mad butcher and slaughterer of men with no thought for anything other than personal combat".

Nazguire
22-11-2007, 21:22
As for Kharn, although I'd wish it was different, the rulebook describes him as "a mad butcher and slaughterer of men with no thought for anything other than personal combat".

I prefer it like that, a champion of Khorne with no loyalties to anything that would hold him back from killing for his God. Having strong ties to his Legion would hold him back in some way so he doesn't have them anymore.

Maidel
22-11-2007, 21:27
Having strong ties to his Legion would hold him back in some way so he doesn't have them anymore.

Killing your mates just cos you cant reach the enemy will do that to you.

brother alinski
22-11-2007, 21:47
With a chainaxe? Obviously that's an extremely brutal, painful and personal way to kill someone (imagine the screaming and the guts and blood flying around). I don't see Berserkers as mindless, but they certainly are brutal and sadistic. making them honourable (even chivalric) doesn't fit the general tone of 40k at all. They live to spread war and carnage - and their honour is probably limited to accepting challanges to single combat and the like.
Also, the do hate. Even the first ruleset for the World Eaters had them hate all loyalist Space Marines (it was a special rule).

As for Kharn, although I'd wish it was different, the rulebook describes him as "a mad butcher and slaughterer of men with no thought for anything other than personal combat".


Not true, death by a thousand cuts is more painful, a axe is brutal and swift. one hit and your done 2 takes your head and ends it. better than toying with the victim like a EC. Honour isant about taking off your cape and putting it in a puddal for a lady, its meeting your enamy face to face, man to man, eather could win, that is the biggest show of honour possible. Most if not all of the sm have an honour code or sence of it.

Kharn can still be a mad butcher and a slaughterer of men with honour. He just hates weakness in all its forms.

jhon
23-11-2007, 01:34
[QUOTE=Supremearchmarshal;2117681]With a chainaxe? Obviously that's an extremely brutal, painful and personal way to kill someone (imagine the screaming and the guts and blood flying around). I don't see Berserkers as mindless, but they certainly are brutal and sadistic. making them honourable (even chivalric) doesn't fit the general tone of 40k at all. They live to spread war and carnage - and their honour is probably limited to accepting challanges to single combat and the like.
Also, the do hate. Even the first ruleset for the World Eaters had them hate all loyalist Space Marines (it was a special rule).
QUOTE]

humm.. lets put it this way , i pefer kill by a zerker with a chain axe in one fast stroke in a flesh more than an army of little girl with rock and art cutter in a day .

zerker is brutal but not too sadistic .. khorne is the god of warrior honour , and brave. zerker is khrone's ture follewer therefore more or less zerker will have some sance of honour in thier spirit and soul [ wait !! their soul has already taken by khorne .. :D ] .

for kharn is khorne's most turlly fellower his bravery shouldn't be question , but also he should be quite a " honourable " warrior .. i think .. and as i say before kharn's mind is too carzy for any one to understand ....

as for the hate toward loyal marine , i think that is the basic code for every choas marine . more or less like " you can join us if you dont hate the loylist " issuse . unlike night lord and that possessed IG lady they dont hate every thing . but they do have rage that will never stop burning . rage can turn to hate ,so does rage turn to hate . their is only a thin red line in between , but there is always has one in between .

ps :
every big has their own " good " side and " dark" side .

Supremearchmarshal
23-11-2007, 11:39
Not true, death by a thousand cuts is more painful, a axe is brutal and swift. one hit and your done 2 takes your head and ends it. better than toying with the victim like a EC. Honour isant about taking off your cape and putting it in a puddal for a lady, its meeting your enamy face to face, man to man, eather could win, that is the biggest show ofhonour possible. Most if not all of the sm have an honour code or sence of it.


zerker is brutal but not too sadistic .. khorne is the god of warrior honour , and brave. zerker is khrone's ture follewer therefore more or less zerker will have some sance of honour in thier spirit and soul [ wait !! their soul has already taken by khorne .. :D ] .


Yeah, a chainaxe might not cause the most painful death, but it certainly is more painful than a normal sword or powersword and most guns. It doesn't look like a honourable warrior's weapon to me.
What I'm getting at here is that I don't think the "fallen paladin" image fits the Berserkers well, and that most of the honour stuff comes from a single paragraph in an old Epic Rulebook - their image has changed over time (not necessarily for the better, mind you). I'm mostly pointing out that in the more recent fluff there is little to indicate that the berserkers have a code of honour or similar.


for kharn is khorne's most turlly fellower his bravery shouldn't be question , but also he should be quite a " honourable " warrior .. i think .. and as i say before kharn's mind is too carzy for any one to understand ....

Oh, I'd like to think of him like that, but official fluff says otherwise (there's that little matter of him killing his own for no real reason at all).


as for the hate toward loyal marine , i think that is the basic code for every choas marine . more or less like " you can join us if you dont hate the loylist " issuse . unlike night lord and that possessed IG lady they dont hate every thing . but they do have rage that will never stop burning . rage can turn to hate ,so does rage turn to hate . their is only a thin red line in between , but there is always has one in between .

Agreed, though I was pointing out that the WE had a rule for their hatred (implying it is particularly strong), unlike other CSM.

P.S. Actually Khorne is a Chaos god, so why should he or his followers be consistent? They don't need a reason for anything :)

brother alinski
23-11-2007, 12:43
Yeah, a chainaxe might not cause the most painful death, but it certainly is more painful than a normal sword or powersword and most guns. It doesn't look like a honourable warrior's weapon to me.
What I'm getting at here is that I don't think the "fallen paladin" image fits the Berserkers well, and that most of the honour stuff comes from a single paragraph in an old Epic Rulebook - their image has changed over time (not necessarily for the better, mind you). I'm mostly pointing out that in the more recent fluff there is little to indicate that the berserkers have a code of honour or similar.



Oh, I'd like to think of him like that, but official fluff says otherwise (there's that little matter of him killing his own for no real reason at all).



Agreed, though I was pointing out that the WE had a rule for their hatred (implying it is particularly strong), unlike other CSM.

P.S. Actually Khorne is a Chaos god, so why should he or his followers be consistent? They don't need a reason for anything :)

Hay theres a reason the axe is used as a exicutioners weapon. Its heavy and its a blade. A combo of sword and mace. If you do get hit by a axe you will die just as fast if not faster than a sword or gun. If you the world eaters were just in it for killing then why not take a heavy bolter to a group of guard then cut off there skulls after you kill them. Dude focus on the axe not just the chainaxe.

can you give me a example of the fluff?

Kharn hates weakness, when his legion stoped because the cold night was going to kill them, he got mad. Its like stoping a battle because the enamey had a really big gun. They let the fear of death stop them from fighting there foe and that is not honourble.

khorne isant Tzeentch the ever changing. he stands for somthing but has been expanded on in more resent turms.

madd0ct0r
23-11-2007, 14:45
I would consider Karn to be a bit like a good rugby player - Hard, brutal, will find the weak point on the oppossing team and just hammer away at it.
All the time the tactics, the game and the position of his team are in the back of his head. He won't even think about it, it'll be a learned instinct.

Now take that, add a chain axe and a hatred for weakness.

brother alinski
24-11-2007, 23:32
I would consider Karn to be a bit like a good rugby player - Hard, brutal, will find the weak point on the oppossing team and just hammer away at it.
All the time the tactics, the game and the position of his team are in the back of his head. He won't even think about it, it'll be a learned instinct.

Now take that, add a chain axe and a hatred for weakness.

not to mention a dame good fit of rage just to back it up lol

ArtificerArmour
25-11-2007, 07:32
You know, I was thinking that Kharn would be perfectly portrayed by the character Kratos from God of War. Brutal, self centred, a fantastic combatant who is out only to fufil his own agenda. He probably would kill khorne if he had half the chance, or at least Angron for calling a retreat at Terra.

(Either that, or the black knight from monty python when he was carried back from the palace siege)

Kurn: "Kharn, they chopped off both your legs and right arm!"
Kharn: "Tis a flesh wound! BURN KILL MAIM!"

*spins round in a circle, dragging himself round with Gorechild*

Supremearchmarshal
25-11-2007, 12:57
Kharn hates weakness, when his legion stoped because the cold night was going to kill them, he got mad. Its like stoping a battle because the enamey had a really big gun. They let the fear of death stop them from fighting there foe and that is not honourble.

So what should have the Berserkers done? Charge out into the open and get shelled to death? When you play tabletop, would you leave your Berserkers in the open in front of a Basilisk? Avoiding a pointless death isn't dishonourable!

brother alinski
25-11-2007, 13:54
So what should have the Berserkers done? Charge out into the open and get shelled to death? When you play tabletop, would you leave your Berserkers in the open in front of a Basilisk? Avoiding a pointless death isn't dishonourable!

table top and background are 2 different things. Yes they would they have a mission to kill the enamy and nothing is going to stop them. Letting fear of death (or a basalisk) controle you is weakness. Bezerkers hate weakness.

jhon
26-11-2007, 02:22
You know, I was thinking that Kharn would be perfectly portrayed by the character Kratos from God of War. Brutal, self centred, a fantastic combatant who is out only to fufil his own agenda. He probably would kill khorne if he had half the chance, or at least Angron for calling a retreat at Terra.

(Either that, or the black knight from monty python when he was carried back from the palace siege)

Kurn: "Kharn, they chopped off both your legs and right arm!"
Kharn: "Tis a flesh wound! BURN KILL MAIM!"

*spins round in a circle, dragging himself round with Gorechild*

i dont think this will going to happen , since the khrone can grow him a new one in a spilt second as long as he cut enough skull for the thorne .

a new leg , or a new arm - 100 IG skull , 15 space marine skull , 10 ork nob or higher rank skull , 5 elder skull , 1 hive nids head or 75 misc skull ..

an extra life - 300 IG skull , 35 space marine skull , 20 ork nob or higher rank skull , 5 elder farseer skull , 2 hive nids head or 200 misc skull .