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T10
10-09-2005, 18:47
Ok, I just completed my first WFB game ever to include a Greate Daemon.

My friend fielded 3000 points of Chaos, including a Keeper of Secrets, I fielded Orcs.

The first round the Keeper of Secrets (and the entire rest of the army) move as fast as possible towards my side of the table, leaving the tightly packed Orc Horde in a precarious position. Several points are vulnerable to charges by powerful Chaos units. Also, his Hellcannon messes up my relatively strong left flank with a good shot.

In order to reinforce my position I need to move some units and characters around, which will leave other units susceptible to Terror tests from the Keeper of Secrets. Anyways, I decide to stick with the original plan, but rather than focusing on the Hellcannon, I turn my four spearchuckas towards the Greater Daemon bearing down on my poor, low-leaderhip troops.

A few rolls later, the Keeper of Secrets is down, having suffered 11 wounds.

What the...?!

I must say I find this rather discouraging. I've thought about putting together a Chaos Army myself at one point - I've even toyed a bit with the idea of an all-daemon army (crazy!). But the surprisingly rapid demise of a Greater Daemon sort of, well, surprised me.

Of course, my opponent could probably have been more careful in his approach, but all in all it seemed a calculated risk (I seriously considered turing my attention towards more easily destructible targets).

But my question is - are Daemons in general this fragile? Sure, it was a *very* lucky bout of shooting, but the number of hits scored could easily have been achieved over several rounds with pretty much the same result...

-T10

Neknoh
10-09-2005, 19:12
It depends, normally, the only thing I know of ever to have resisted something like 4 Spear Chuckas (think it was something like 6 Reaper Bolt Throwers against some elvsies) was in fact a Great Unclean One... although he does have 10 wounds at toughness 6.

But, if you wouldn't have taken him/her down in that volley, trust me, you would not be asking on wether or not it was wise to include the daemons and wether or not they are fragile, you would be in a to big a pile of A4 army lists including Greater Daemons to even move.

In combat, especially on a flank, a Greater Daemon is nigh untouchable for nothing but the most powerful of foes... or a rear charge.

You have to be carefull indeed, and your opponent took a risk, think of it, what would have happened if you would have shot at the Hellcannon or Chaos Knights instead?

Fragile to Warmachine Fire... tell me ONE thing without a 4+ Wardsave or regeneration of some sort that can take it on and go through it still standing?

User Name
10-09-2005, 19:36
Demons as an addition to a mortal or beastmen army, except for the exalted and greater demons, they negate ranks and can fly as well as cause terror. They can provide one hell of a punch on a combined charge but you do have to be sneaky with them so they dont get shot to bits as its not that difficult to destroy them.

Generaly taking a hero levle demon kited to do waht you like (no armour save blade for knight killing is always nice), or my fav cloud of flies as most things will hit on 4 or 5.

For a cheaper tought alternitive, and the best tarpit in combat ever for chaos, a giant with mutant monstrocity, t/w 6 and a 5+ save, not to mention the chance to body slam the enemy.

SlaaneshSlave
10-09-2005, 21:59
Greater Demons are pratically useless.

If they can get to combat on a flank then they are in good shape. But those first 2 turns are hairy. Large target make them almost impossible to hide. No AS. No save against magic missles or Skaven warmachines or dwarf machines with runes. And really a 5+ ward save doesn't help much against poison either.

You can't even charge straight at the enemy for protection, with 6 attacks they can't take a RNF unit in the front.

Just not worth 600+ points.

Trunks
11-09-2005, 00:01
All four Greater Demons are good as long as you don't think they are invincible while you are using them.

The Lord of Change is great. He has access to some decent damaging spells and can do fairly well in close combat. Since he is a flier, he can avoid being shot by many things and will survive fairly long if maneuvered right. The combination of one re-roll a turn and Spell Destroyer is VERY vicious.

The Bloodthirster can easily make his points back. He is a large target with flying, meaning he can pretty much charge anything he wants (you can't place regiments in front of him to stop him from charging other regiments since he will fly right over them). Anything he charges is going to be crippled, even on a frontal charge in many cases. Being frenzied can be a pain, but it is something you adapt to fairly quickly.

The Keeper of Secrets is a level four wizard with one of the best magic lores in the game. He is a combat monster nearly as powerful as the Bloodthirster. He has a respectable movement of 8. He will be in combat on turn two in most cases, and then won't be shot at for most of the game as he tears through things.

The Great Unclean One is probably the weakest and I'm really not a fan of him (I'd rather have my demon prince instead), but he is pretty damn hard to get rid of).

Their weakness overall is warmachines. That is why the Keeper fell so quickly. If the Keeper had actually gotten to your flank intact, you would have been screwed.

Sanjuro
11-09-2005, 00:29
Unsupported, greater daemons are like new-born babes left out in the wild - someone's lunch.

Properly supported, they can be effective. Just not as effective as other stuff in the Chaos lists.

You want to see something that is pure *****? Take the Shaggoth. Now that thing has NO redeeming qualities (apart from a kick-ass model).

T10
11-09-2005, 10:12
The Greater Daemons are clearly a No-Go for mainstream 2000 points games. And for a 3000 points game I can probalby fit in something less valueable but still suitably worrying.

I'll also bear in mind that a fully commited attack will not just be a matter of exposing my own pricey troops, but more importantly force the enemy to make tough decisions.

-T10

Sanjuro
11-09-2005, 10:52
A Chaos giant is probably your best bet if you want to include something big and worrying - apart from being more cost-effective than Greater Daemons it has great conversion potential. You can really end up with something unique and cool as a sort of centerpiece in your army. Using parts from the greater daemons is always a good way to get started.

The giant dies pretty much as fast to bolt throwers as a GD does, and he costs less than a third of the points. I.e. you can include no less than THREE chaos giants instead of one Greater Daemon. In 3000 pts, you even have the rare slots to do so. So you miss out on 4 levels of magic (provided you don't play Khorne). Whoop de doo. Imagine the look on your opponent's face when you place three giants opposite his right flank...

:evilgrin:

T10
11-09-2005, 11:43
Heh. I do like the idea - I've always had a weak spot for the "Go Large" approach in army building.

However, if (when) I get around to doing a Chaos army, I will make sure to include a Greater Daemon for 3000+ points battles.

-T10

Sanjuro
11-09-2005, 16:09
They are cool as heck, no denying that. What flavour chaos would that be, if you do get around to it?

My personal favourite is Tzeentch, for pure background and fluff reasons. The current LoC looks a little on the silly side however - a mean ol' bird with a bit of a beergut. I like the older Lords of Change (3rd ed) better - they are birds too, but with more of an alien, strange appearance that suits Chaos better, I think. Too bad they are hard to get ahold of.

The other greater daemon models are pretty decent in this edition, except the Great Unclean One model, which is very good. One of the best Chaos model from the current line, in my opinion.

T10
11-09-2005, 18:59
Well, it's not going to be the Great Unclean One.

The Lord of Change is the most likely option for pretty much the reasons stated. Nothing says "Warhammer!" like Chaos does (except Orcs), and nothing says "Chaos!" like Tzeentch.

-T10

Markconz
11-09-2005, 23:06
I've used a KOS in 2000-3000 points mortal lists about a dozen times. I charge it up one flank with the idea of rolling up the line. Like everyone says the first turn is a gamble as you hope the enemy warmachines miss... In fact some games I have left my KOS and chosen knights behind woods etc on turn 1, while my furies go and deal with the enemy war machines :)

In the end game the combat power of a Greater Daemon, combined with its magic can be a game winner. Getting off one Slaneesh spell like Enrapturing Spasms can win a game many times. Nonetheless I still pick and choose carefully when and where I cast, instead of just casting as much as possible because I've got a Lvl 4 wizard. I once miscast while in a unit of Dameonettes. As well as the KOS wounding himself, he killed 8 daemonettes...