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View Full Version : Half-hearted fly or walk? Also initiative confusion..



One.Fit.Outcast.
11-11-2007, 00:33
A chaos lord with the mark of khorne wears the helm of many eyes and has a chaos dragon for a mount. so despite being immune to pyscology he takes a Ld test at the start of every chaos turn he's not already in combat in. if he fails, does he:-
a) move forward 3"- half the dragon's basic move
or b) move forward 10"- half the dragon's fly move
this is presuming that he wouldn't use his own move, as when do you get knights to dismount and walk?
presuming that he reaches combat with a high elf prince anyway, and as he has the helm of many eyes also strikes first, and they both have I8. you should then roll off, but what if the high elf lord has a great weapon? it would make sense to think of two enemies of the same agility and skill but one of them wielding a huge two-handed weapon and the other a sword, despite the agility of the combatant with great weapon, the other would strike first, surely?
Any help much appreciated

theunwantedbeing
11-11-2007, 00:39
3" you move half your movement rate.
The "model" suffers the effects, not just a single part, all parts so no dismounting.

Atrahasis
11-11-2007, 01:10
Great Weapons strike last where otherwise initiative order would be used.

If two opponents with ASF are fighting each other, initiative is used.

So if two opponents with ASF are fighting each other and one has a great weapon, the great weapon strikes last.

Urgat
11-11-2007, 01:31
mmh, don't think so. Great weapons striking last have nothing to do with initiative, it is a special rule which is overriden by the ASF rule, so my reading would be that you have to roll to know who's striking first.

GodHead
11-11-2007, 02:58
Also note that the Strike Last rules themselves tell you to use Initiative order when fighting other models with Great Weapons, so if special rules could function as the condition for striking last because of the Strike Last rules, then they would create an infinite loop.

Rodman49
11-11-2007, 03:55
mmh, don't think so. Great weapons striking last have nothing to do with initiative, it is a special rule which is overriden by the ASF rule, so my reading would be that you have to roll to know who's striking first.

I believe this is close to being correct. If a HE and Chaos Lord both have ASF then it is resolved in initiative order, regardless if the HE has a Great Weapon or not.

T10
11-11-2007, 10:16
There are no rules for the riders dismounting and walking - you always use the mount's Movement value. You cannot, for example, decide to "walk" in order to make a shorter failed charge move or stupidity move.

And in the case of two characters that Always Strike First: The immediately resort to Initiative as the tie breaker, followed by a roll-off. Weapons and Charging have no bearing on the situation.

-T10

Atrahasis
11-11-2007, 10:43
And in the case of two characters that Always Strike First: The immediately resort to Initiative as the tie breaker, followed by a roll-off. Weapons and Charging have no bearing on the situation.

Changed your mind? (http://warseer.com/forums/2064544-post10.html)

ASF vs ASF first resorts to initiative, then a roll off. At the initiative stage, the GW rules kick in, and the GW strikes last.

If two characters, both with ASF and GW fight each other, then first we check ASF, then resort to initiative, which leads to GW, which leads to initiative. This does not cause an infinite loop because they use initiative where otherwise (ie if they did not have GW) they would use initiative.

If two characters, both with ASF, GW, and equal initiative fight, then it is the same as above, but then resorting to the previous round's winner, and then to a dice off.

T10
11-11-2007, 11:16
Changed your mind? (http://warseer.com/forums/2064544-post10.html)


It seem's I'm not the only one changing his mind about this... :)

http://warseer.com/forums/2064620-post12.html

The rules for Always Strike First comes with a tie-breaker procedure: Initiative order, followed by a dice-off as the final tie-breaker. This can be read as to (A) reference to the regular Initiative order or (B) a complete and self-contained tie-breaker procedure.

A) If referring to the regular Initiative, this allows more factors to come into play, but risks producing the "infinite loop" A. just mentioned. Also, the ASF reference to the dice of is completely superfluous and misleading, as the dice off usually comes into play after taking into consideration which side is winning.

B) If complete and self contained, the issue of who strikes first is resolved by immediately comparing initiative and then breaking the tie with a dice-off. This obviously takes fewer factors into account with the benefit of not confusing the hell out of people. On the down-side it favours Great Weapons users (by not holding them to the always-strike-last penalty), and is a lot more random.

I like simple because it results infewer mistakes, so count me as an option B man.

-T10

Urgat
11-11-2007, 11:18
Changed your mind? (http://warseer.com/forums/2064544-post10.html)

ASF vs ASF first resorts to initiative, then a roll off. At the initiative stage, the GW rules kick in, and the GW strikes last.

If two characters, both with ASF and GW fight each other, then first we check ASF, then resort to initiative, which leads to GW, which leads to initiative. This does not cause an infinite loop because they use initiative where otherwise (ie if they did not have GW) they would use initiative.

I don't agree. Resorting to initiative ignores the GW strikes last rule. It is a rule, not an initiative test. If you strike first, you strike first, whatever the weapon. If you have to roll for I, I don't see how the GW would have any bearing, because then, you just ignore the ASF rule so that the GW can kick in, which is inconstistent with the very situation (the guy strikes first regardless of the fact he's wielding a GW). I usually regard your opinions on rules as sensible, but this time, you fail to convince me, at least: ASF cancels the GW strike last rule, in any case, so I don't see why I tests should be any different. I know I repeat myself, but the GS strike last rule has no link whatsoever with initiative.

Things would be much more simple if they didn't make such rules, and used modifiers instead (like GW users have I/2, or -6, or opponent's I-1, or whatever).

Festus
11-11-2007, 11:58
Hi

Honestly, I am with Atrahasis on this one:

first check for ASF, then for Initiative (subroutine: check for GW/strike last, if both, return to initiative), then for winner of previous round, then for dice off.

This is exactly the same without or with ASF:
The GW rules detail that once you decide on the sequence by Initiative, the Strike Last rules kick in - and the ASF rules tell us, that you have to resort to the Ini sequence if both have ASF.

Relevant pages in the BRB: 34, 54f., 94ff.

Festus

GodHead
11-11-2007, 16:51
It needs a FAQ. Next. :rolleyes:

Atrahasis
11-11-2007, 18:26
It does not need a FAQ.

"Troops armed with a weapon that strikes last will always strike last where they would otherwise strike in Initiative order"

Two models fighting each other, both with ASF, is a situation where the model would otherwise strike in initiative order.

The concept of an infinite loop is a red herring thrown across the track to obfuscate the matter. It simply is not a problem.

TheSanityAssassin
11-11-2007, 18:42
Yah...even as an Elf player I would say that the Great Weapon would lead to him striking last...once it goes to an initiative check, he'd strike last...the only bonus for the elves is that they can normally ignore that check....once they're forced to make it....good night my sweet prince.

Urgat
11-11-2007, 18:55
"Troops armed with a weapon that strikes last will always strike last where they would otherwise strike in Initiative order"

I checked and double checked, and finaly found where this sentence comes from (end of p54, begining of 55 in my version of the rulebook). Apologies, I'm changing my mind, you're right :p
I missed this damn sentence, but it's even clearer in the french rulebook: if intiative has to be applied, the GW will strike last, basically.
Well, that's good, I defended the idea rule-wise, but "realism-wise", it seemed idiotic. But there's so many idiotic rules in warhammer, I was expecting that one too.
Therefore, I stand corrected.

GodHead
11-11-2007, 20:11
"Two models fighting each other, both with ASF, is a situation where the model would otherwise strike in initiative order."

Two models fighting each other, both with Strikes Last is a situation where the model would otherwise strike in initiative order.

Where yours triggers "Strikes Last," mine does as well, for exactly the same reason.

Atrahasis
11-11-2007, 20:28
Two "strikes lasts" is expressly covered by the Strikes Last rule, and so cannot trigger infinite looping (it gives us an "exit" from the process).

Falkman
11-11-2007, 20:29
Fighting against someone with ASF does not confer Always strike last upon you.

Atrahasis
11-11-2007, 20:34
Fighting against someone with ASF does not confer Always strike last upon you.
I'm not sure who that is directed at, because I'm not sure anyone is suggesting it does.

Falkman
11-11-2007, 20:35
It was directed at GodHead, I got the feeling he was discussing the problem where one ASFer were wielding a great weapon and the other was not.
Sorry if I got it wrong.

Palatine Katinka
12-11-2007, 02:40
As I see it...

ASF model will always strike first EXCEPT when their opponent also has ASF. (I think we all agree on this.) So, what happens next? ASF tells us to check initiative. So we have a situation where the models strike in initiative order. According to the Strikes Last weapon rule, when you would normally strike in initiative order you instead strike last. Seems simple, the Great Weapon wielding Elf strikes last if his opponent has ASF.

If both had Great Weapons then both would have to strike last but this can't happen so you go back to initiative order (once any other non-strikes last models have made their attacks). If both models have the same initiative check who won last round. If this is the first round, or last round was a draw, roll off. There is no loop because the Strikes Last rules themselves explain what to do in this situation.

Curiously, in the case of two models with ASF, charging has no bearing on which strikes first even though it normally overides initiative and winning the previous round doesn't break initiative ties between two models that have ASF, straight to roll off.