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View Full Version : book of hoeth: is it worth it?



brambleten
11-11-2007, 10:47
sorry if this has been posted before

on thursday, i will be taking the new HE archmage against some wood elves that seem to hammer me repetitively. i was wondering if i am doing the correct thing and going for the book of hoeth.
has it ever pulled its points back for you?
are there better alternatives in the new HE book?
please tell me, as i am new to HEs

Tutore
11-11-2007, 12:02
I think not. Although there will always be someone saying else, I NEVER saw a HE player win a battle with that book.

theunwantedbeing
11-11-2007, 12:12
I remember facing a guy with that book.
My exaulted daemon marched right over to him and hacked him into several thin slices.
In the same battle that same exaulted daemon did the same thing to teclis.

100pts is a lot of points.
You need to be going for all 4 spells and get 4 worthwhile spells to get much real worth out of him.
But thats 8-12 dice required on average, and he'll be generating only 6 dice on his own,
Banner of sorcerery ups that to 7-9 dice he gets to use.
So you wont get to throw 3 dice at every spell, perhaps only a single spell.

Assuming he throws 3 dice at 3 spells.
With 2 dice at a spell thats a 1/12 chance of getting irresistable force(assuming double 2 and double 1 are worthless to the cause as you wont successfully cast it on a 4 or a 2).
With 3 dice the chance of getting an irresistable force goes up, by half I think...something around that.
Again double 2 and 1 isnt particulalry helpful so the book is simply allowing double 3,4 and 5 to gain irresistable force as well.

Assuming you have the banner of sorcery somewhere in the list then he'll be getting 9 dice to throw at 3 spells which a fairly decent chance of irresistable force on each of those 3 spells.
The combo requires a hefty chunk of points though, nearly 400pts and your lord slot(more if your using teclis from the new book)..which for 3 spells may or may not be worth it, as its soley down to your spells that you manage to get.
Access to 9 lores(high magic + the normal 8 remember) helps alleviate this of course.

I wouldn't say it's that worth it though.
100pts on any item is rarely worth it, especially on something as fickle as magic.

An option for "not sure" would be nice for this poll please ^_^

Baindread
11-11-2007, 12:23
(assuming double 2 and double 1 are worthless to the cause as you wont successfully cast it on a 4 or a 2)

Except that isn't correct, is it? It doesn't matter what the numbers on the dice are as long as it is Irresistible Force and it isn't a miscast, right? I think that is the way it works but I am not sure since I don't have the rulebook with me at the moment so please correct me if I am wrong :D

Anyway, I generally agree with was has been said. What usually happens is that the Arch Mage spells get through but then the opponent has all his dispel dices left and dispel all the lvl 2 spells. So you wind up getting through the same amount of spells as you would normally do, except perhaps the Arch mage spells are better and you prefer to cast e.g Flames of phoenix rather than a D6 S4 missile.

Avatar of the Eldar
11-11-2007, 14:26
It"s cool but too many eggs in one basket.

Never in a tourney list. Sometimes in a "friendly" game.

I'd like to use it with the new mage model holding a tome out just so I can exclaim "Doubles! Book of Hoeth, beeyotch!" when IF goes off. I'm sure my opponent won't find it so droll.

Neknoh
11-11-2007, 17:01
I thought the book was gone by now :confused:

Vsurma
11-11-2007, 17:20
Why would you not be casting the book of hoeth wielders spells last???

This way either the opponent spends his dispells on the smaller spells cast by your lv2s OR they risk wasting their dispell dice completly should they save them up to use when your lord is casting its IF spells

It has to be a successful cast in order to take effect but double 2s along with a 3rd dice that brings the casting value over what is needed still gives you IR.

I think if you are going to be spending 360 points on a archmage with hoath personally I would go with teclis assuming you dont need the mage to have a steed of sorts.

For a mere 115pts extra you get immunity to your first miscast (nice esp since you want to be using 3 dice for every spell you can) Also he gets the d3 power/dispell dice which allows you even more casting power in that 1 lord slot, effectively you get another lv2 mage in this guy that also benefits from the book.

Kaleb79
11-11-2007, 17:51
and note that the first miscast every turn - sweetness!

never took Teclis before, too expensive when you can go pop with just a miscast.

Take teclis along with a lvl2 mage with high magic, trickster's pendant, dispel scroll, banner of sorcery in a unit for some fun.

Teclis has 6+2D3 power dice to use making it on average 10 dice and up to 12! He could conceivable cast 6 spells every turn!! mwuahahaha

All this for 660 points which isn't bad (475pts + 185 pts)

the lvl 2 mage can either cast shield of saphery at the start of your magic phase or drain magic at the end (depending on how ferocious your opponent's offensive magic is.

in a big battle (3000pts +) you'll have a decent defensive and offensive magic saving plenty of points for other nasties :)

Khorghan
11-11-2007, 18:00
I wouldent say its worth it, not in tournaments-friendly games id do it

Meraklis
11-11-2007, 18:04
I wouldn't take it! If you want to go magic heavy take Teclis and add the banner of sorcery! ;)
2 power dice from your pool
1 D3 from Teclis staff
1 D3 from the banner
4 power dice from Teclis

:D

feintstar
12-11-2007, 03:53
I'm not a fan of taking special characters.

Furthermore, when you desperately need a spell to go off (for instance, Unseen Lurker) then you can feel a lot more confidant (perhaps unjustly so, ut fortune favours the bold, and boldness is what the BoH is all about) when you feed those 4 Power Dice through a BoH.

That way, because theres the chance that you'll just overpower the opponents' dispell PLUS the chance of IF, you can afford to make bold manuvers, a la the Anvil of Doom. Except with Dragons. :) (40" charge anyone?)

Other thing is Magic resistance. If you're looking down the barrel of a 10 strong Ogre Unit with a Lord, a Hero and MR3, then what are you going to do? Fine shoot it, until his 12" marches get too close... Outmanuver it, until the supporting units make that really difficult... Or simply avoid it, where he wins via VP denial. So in steps the Archmage with the BoH and a Pit of shades, and one devastated Ogre player later, you can afford to charge the front of that big Ogre unit with impunity. Likewise applies to 2nd Gen Slaan, Dwarf Lords, Dwarf Runelords etc.

Last thing is those thrice damned items: Wand of Witch Elm and the Staff of Change. These things make a mockery of any offensive magic. And I take offensive magic, so I find these Items smell offensively enough to counter using a BoH, just for the simple satisfaction of flipping the bird to those bastards who are impertinent enough to challenge a High Elf Archmage in a duel of magic.

brambleten
12-11-2007, 06:48
im getting teclis, so ill probably use the BoH till then, maybe using a prince instead a couple of times.

eleveninches
12-11-2007, 11:09
BoH is definately worth it. You no longer need to worry about spells being dispelled. Get the banner of sorcery and a single lv4 mage (or teclis), and thats your magic phase sorted. 5-dice casting almost guarentees an irresistable force spell, that a lv4 or teclis with banner of sorcery in the army can do 2 times per turn.

sulla
13-11-2007, 02:26
I don't have a problem with it's value per points cost but personally, there are always items I would take over it.

enyoss
13-11-2007, 08:32
Except that isn't correct, is it? It doesn't matter what the numbers on the dice are as long as it is Irresistible Force and it isn't a miscast, right? I think that is the way it works but I am not sure since I don't have the rulebook with me at the moment so please correct me if I am wrong :D


Unfortunately not :). The book only causes an irresistable force result where there are doubles in any successful casting roll, a subtle distinction!

I voted for 'no', but I agree with theunwantedbeing and would have prefered a 'not sure'. From personal experience I've never found the book to be as useful as it looks to be. Either I get a bunch of circumstantial spells which aren't worth casting every turn, or the luck just doesn't pan out.

I disagree with some posters on the strategy for the item though. I think you should be looking to cast one spell from this Archmage each turn, not 3-4, making sure you throw enough dice at it to get a successful casting roll and some doubles (4-5 usually).

I also don't take it because my group cry like babies at how hard it is, it's just not worth the earache :rolleyes:.

Cheers

enyoss

Stella Cadente
13-11-2007, 09:20
in 3000pts+, I would say yes, in anything less, I would say no

Scythe
13-11-2007, 13:05
BoH is definately worth it. You no longer need to worry about spells being dispelled. Get the banner of sorcery and a single lv4 mage (or teclis), and thats your magic phase sorted. 5-dice casting almost guarentees an irresistable force spell, that a lv4 or teclis with banner of sorcery in the army can do 2 times per turn.

Your magic offense, yes. Defensive wise, you are stuck with 4 dispel dice and no scrolls. Not that great, unless you expect Dwarves...

On a side note: 5 dice also increase the chance of a miscast (to almost 20%), which could hurt your expensive mage a lot.

Horn
13-11-2007, 13:23
A sole archmage with banner of sorcery was a reasonable setup in 6th edition for single games against specific opponents: a 400 point magic phase that has a reasonable chance of getting a Pit of Shades off against a 500-point unit of Ironbreakers, or a Spirit of the Forge against Chosen Khorne Knights. Most useful against very magic-defensive armies; against your standard Empire/Skaven army a pair of level 2's would be much more effective, as a rule.

In 7th edition, I honestly see very little reason to take a Book of Hoeth-toting archmage instead of Teclis.

DeathlessDraich
13-11-2007, 13:38
:DSeerstaff, Annulian crystal, Silver Wand, Dispel Scrolls etc etc - cheaper and more effective in combination.

Stella Cadente - pts is an abbreviation :D

Stella Cadente
13-11-2007, 14:20
Stella Cadente - pts is an abbreviation :D
*slaps* silence mortal

brambleten
13-11-2007, 16:43
:DSeerstaff, Annulian crystal, Silver Wand, Dispel Scrolls etc etc - cheaper and more effective in combination.

Stella Cadente - pts is an abbreviation :D

oh dear, thats you as well abreviating.
i did the poll in a hurry,sorry for no middle option

FurryMiguell
14-11-2007, 16:17
I'd rather get a lot of items giving me extra casting dice, and some bound spells... Much better:)

Cheers:D

brambleten
15-11-2007, 18:52
i have found that, after being massacared by some wood elves, that the book of hoeth is actually worth it. i managed to get off several spells with irrisistable force, but the highlight of my game was either my 2 archers taking down the noble before he could hit, or my PG champion with armour of caledor standing up to around 25-30 attacks and only failing the one ward save, right at the death, as my last model

Scythe
16-11-2007, 07:01
Surely suffering a massacre with Book of Hoeth is not a positive thing? :D

Getting of several spells might be nice, but the real question you should be asking yourself is: was the book of Hoeth really needed to get those spells off? And: what did those spells actually do to help me in the battle?

kroq'gar
16-11-2007, 07:27
Book of Hoeth. I had my 2nd gen slann and half his templeguard ripped into a pit of shades with that crp. That making back enough points for you?

eleveninches
16-11-2007, 11:56
I'd rather get a lot of items giving me extra casting dice, and some bound spells... Much betterBut you forget that despite all those items, your archmage is going to waste if his spells end up getting dispelled. With BoH, you can make sure that the spell you really want will be irresistable, rather than letting your opponant choose which sells will get through

Scythe
16-11-2007, 13:11
Book of Hoeth. I had my 2nd gen slann and half his templeguard ripped into a pit of shades with that crp. That making back enough points for you?

*sign*. I once had a witch elf champion kill a daemon prince. It doesn't mean squad.

A good preformance in one battle does not guarantee a good performance in every battle.

brambleten
16-11-2007, 16:01
im up against empire next, and ill try some other magic, maybe tooling my arch up with the bound furry of khaine thing and some other stuff

FurryMiguell
16-11-2007, 18:58
furry of khaine:)... Yeah, good luck mate;). I'm up against the same damn army next too, with my DE

Cheers:D