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EvC
11-11-2007, 13:15
So, first game using 7th edition rules, against Mark (logan054)’s Khornate army. Here be what was in my army:

Noble, Armour of Caledor, Great Weapon, Amulet of Light
Noble BSB Dragon Prince, Star Lance, Enchanted Shield
Level 2 Mage, 2 Power Stones (Fury of Khaine, Flames of the Phoenix)
23 Spearmen, FC, War Banner
12 Archers, Musician
6 Silver Helms, Full Works
5 Reavers, Bows, Musician
6 Dragon Princes, FC, Foe Bane, Ellyrion Banner
6 Shdow Warriors
Tiranoc Chariot
15 Swordmasters, Lion Banner
Bolt Thrower
Not many rares, but I liked having all those varied units. Ordinarily there’d be 2 scrolls on the mage, but against Mark’s Chaos he lets me swap them for Power Stones.

Mark’s list was roughly:
Soul Hungering Khorne Exalted Daemon
2 x 15 Warriors, Shields
5 Chosen Knights
Hounds
Medium sized Beast Herd
7 Furies
2 Chariots
Spawn
Regular Giant
(Mark of Khorne where available)

The terrain saw a hill near the middle of the Chaos deployment zone, a forest about halfway up the table near the left, whilst a building cut the bottom right of the table, and another forest to its left (Just wide enough to fit a unit through).

Deployment saw the Chaos infantry together near the centre with a Chariot, Knights (Screened by Hounds), Giant, second Chariot and Daemon on left, Furies and Spawn on the right.

High Elf deployment saw the Archers and Bolt thrower on left, then the Spearmen, the Dragon Prince, Swordmasters directly behind them, Chariot, Silver Helms, and then Reavers between forest and building. The Shadow Warriors scouted in the forest near the Chosen Knights.

High Elves got first turn, and it was on!

Turn One

The cavalry moved forward creating a bowl-like formation, whilst the infantry move forward, confident they could take on the worst that Chaos could bring. The Shadow Warriors moved up to the edge of the forest, readying their bows. They shot a couple of hounds, the Archers killing another another, though the hounds stuck in place. The Bolt Thrower aimed for the Giant, doing a couple of wounds to the massive beast. The Charioteers strung their bows and put a pair of arrow into the Chaos Spawn, causing a wound to the fearsome creature, although the Reaver Knights could not match their feat.

The forces of Chaos moved up, the Furies flying around the side and back of the Reaver Knights. Everything else went forwards, but not the usual frenzied charge forwards. The Daemon Prince flew nice and close to the Shadow Warriors, with the Elven archers in his sights.

Turn Two

The Giant was in charge distance, so the Dragon Princes and Chariot both charged at him. Knowing the power of the ancient Elven lords, the Giant turned tail and fled, rushing through the Beastmen who also fled. The Dragon Princes overran into the first Chariot, although the Noble could not bring his Star Lance to bear. The Tiraonic Chariot was left out in the open, and so the infantry edged backwards, lest the Chariot flee from any charges and go through their own ranks. Shooting saw the Bolt Thrower wound the Daemon Prince a few times, all but one being saved by his Daemonic Aura. The Archers managed to kill a Chosen Knight, amazingly. The Reavers tried to put the hurt on the Spawn, but he kept coming. The Shadow Warriors slaughtered the remaining Hounds.

In combat the Drakemaster swung his Foebane sword, but could not hit the damn chariot (He’d have wounded on 2+ if he’d have hit!). The rest of the unit caused some damage, and the Warriors on top felled a Dragon Prince before turning tail and running, straight through the Giant, killing him outright, but escaping. Every man for himself! The Dragon Princes themselves overran into the left unit of Warriors, readying their lances once again.

The Chaos counterattack began, with the right Chariot hurtling into the side of the Dragon Princes (They made contact with the BSB and his Star Lance, however). The Furies tried to charge the stranded Chariot, but it fled, not hurting anything. It did end up in the path of the Chosen Knights however, blocking their movement. The Exalted Prince charged into the Bolt Thrower, grabbing the two crewmen and flying off the table to do unspeakable things to her. The fleeing Chariot and Beastmen rallied.

The Spawn meanwhile charged the Reavers, who lost only one whilst causing one wound to the gurgling mass.

The Chariot did some damage to the Dragon Princes, killing a couple, before the Noble struck out with his Star Lance. Needing one hit on a 3+ and one wound on a 2+ to destroy the Chariot and generate enough CR to beat down the Warriors to their front, I failed to even hit. The Dragon Princes managed to cut down a fair few Warriors, but at the end of the combat, I had lost by one. Rolling a 10 followed by an 11 for the breaktest, followed by a flee distance of about 6”, the Dragon Princes were spectacularly cut down, the Warriors catching their standard and the Battle Standard. Amazing.

Turn Three

Seeing their comrades in trouble, the Silver Helms valiantly failed their fear test and did not charge the Spawn. The Reavers held out for another turn, thankfully. The Chariot rallied and positioned itself to face the Chosen Knights. Gulp.

The Mage finished the incantation he had been working on for three turns and annihilated six of the badass Chaos Warriors with Flames of the Phoenix. The Swordmasters were steaming about the loss of the Dragon Princes, and charged into the Furies, wiping them out with ease, before overrunning into the same Warriors. Victory WOULD be mine dammit!

Once again the hordes of Chaos counter-attacked: the Swordmasters were so wide that the first Chariot could hurtle into them. The Beastmen went unruly and crowded around the combat, not able to contribute however. The Exalted Daemon returned, landing a hair’s width from the rear of the Archers. However, the Chosen Knights managed only three wounds on the Tiranoc Chariot before it fled- it killed 4 Archers, but ran through the Exalted Daemon and killed him! The Archers let out a muted cheer…

If you thought that was lucky, well, the Khornate Chariot got the inevitable 6 for impact hits on the Swordmasters, killing all the front rank but for the Blademasters. Once again, I failed to even hit the enemy, and so the Swordmasters also turned tail and ran, only to be cut down. The Flaming Warriors now had three standards and had killed a good 600 points of stuff now with their Chariots! The Chariot also overran into the flank of the Spearmen, ready to dish out more hurt…

Turn Four

It was looking grim, but the Silver Helms did not fail their Fear test this time and slammed into the Spawn, whilst the Reavers kept holding on. The Spearmen readied themselves for an unavoidable charge from the Chariot that had just wiped out the Swordmasters. The Tiranoc Chariot decided rallying was a stupid idea and fled the battlefield. Well, it had killed the Exalted Daemon, so I can’t complain. The Mage left the Archers to their fate, as the Chosen were bearing down on them.

The Flames kept burning, but seemed to get weaker and killed fewer Warriors. Five Chaos Warriors were left, but the Shadow Warriors put an arrow into the eye of one more. Four to go!

The Silver Helms did not manage a single hit on the Spawn, and with the untouched Chaos Warriors ready to countercharge, things looked really bad. In the end, the attacks of the Reavers’ horses managed to take off the Spawn’s final wound, the Helms pretending they’d won the day (When they’d done nothing!) and overrunning straight into the Chaos Warriors. The Chaos Chariot hit the flank of the Spearmen, doing heavy damage, but the Spearmen had the static combat resolution, and the General was on the corner of the unit, and wounded the Chariot once or twice, sending it running. The Spearmen could not afford to let the Chariot escape, and broke formation to try and catch it, though it outran them.

The Chosen Knights finally got their charge on the Archers, who predictably died. Meanwhile the four remaining Warriors hit the deep, exposed flank of the Spearmen and the Beastmen hit their narrow front. The General only killed a single Beastmen, whilst the four Chaos Warriors managed 7 kills with their 8 attacks, the Beastmen adding injury to insult. Against dice like that the Spearmen could not hold and far enough to escape for the first and only time so of course, the Spearmen had been reduced to 5 models and could not rally.

The Silver Helms finally proved their worth and killed the front rank of the Warriors, breaking the rest, though the Helms did not catch them.

Turn Five

The Silver Helms chased off the running Chaos Warriors, whilst the Shadow Warriors moved to put more hurt on the depleted survivors of the other unit. The Reavers moved to claim a table quarter, nothing else they could achieve.

The Flames of the Phoenix kept getting stronger but I could not wipe out the Warriors, they were now down to just the Standard and Musician. The Shadow Warriors could not kill them, and the pair had to charge, the stand and shoot proving equally useless. The Shadow Warriors could not hurt them in combat either and despite high WS and hatred, the Shadow Warriors lost some of their number, failed their break test and were run down by the two ridiculously lucky Warriors.

Meanwhile the Beastmen tried to catch the Mage, who fled.

Turn Six

All that was left to do was the Silver Helms return to the table to receive a charge from one of the Chariots. My luck continued to ruin the game, and the Mage fled off the table, meaning that the Flames of the Phoenix, which would have been S6, was cancelled. The Warriors and their four standards would survive the battle.

The Chariot slammed into the Silver Helms, but my opponent actually didn’t roll a 6 for impact hits, so the Helms survived.

And that was it! All I had left were the Silver Helms and Reaver Knights. Not much was left on the Chaos side either- two Chariots at half strength, the Chosen Knights, half a unit of Warriors and some Beastmen. But with the captured standards, it was a clear massacre.

Conclusion

I’ve been sceptical about ASF, but this battle really didn’t tell me much about it to be honest… apart from the fact that if the player rolling the dice can’t hit, then it’s meaningless. This was a great game, but it was ruined by my constant, appalling luck. I’ve told people I usually play Vampire Counts because that was I can’t fail leadership tests, and this game made it clear how important psychology was, as I failed so many tests on 8-, from the Silver Helms charging the Spawn (Not the end of the world), to the Dragon Princes and BSB failing their break test twice (Ironically I rolled enough to pass on their flee distance on three dice). Though it was fun to try out the new High Elves, it was a pretty depressing game really, which paved the way for a second game, which saw the surviving band of Elves try to fight their way through the forces of Chaos, in a Seven Knights Scenario… watch out for that battle report in the next Watchman!

theunwantedbeing
11-11-2007, 13:31
Er are you sure the star lance gives its +3 strength when you arent charging?
Not that it mattered, just want some clarification on it please.

Not sure about this(cant seem to find it in the rulebook, might be from 6th edition) but arent fleeing mages unable to keep remains in play spells going?
Again not that it really mattered in that game but a bit of clarification would be appreciated.

Good conclusion, nice to see you recognised bad luck where bad luck happened as opposed to stating ASF is perfectly fine based around that battle.
Elves fighting seven knights worth of chaos......that sounds like it wont go too well either lol.

alextroy
11-11-2007, 15:21
The Dragon Princes had a pursuit charge from their turn, so they where charging.

And fleeing mages can maintain spells, they just can't cast or generate dispel dice.

This battle shows both, how nasty Chariots can be to the new High Elves.... and how important it is to get decent die rolls ;)

SevenSins
11-11-2007, 15:28
good game, and rotten luck. And the reason? Chaos have the gods on their side naturally

Elhier
11-11-2007, 15:55
fantastic battle. youve given me a lovely idea involving shodow warriors and foe bane. looking forward to the seven knights thing.

brambleten
11-11-2007, 18:33
nasty, nasty Khorne :D
good batrep

adreal
11-11-2007, 18:44
Evwen though I did laugh at your expense, it was more at your luck in this game then the fact you were looseing. Still seems like it would have been a fun game, luck aside

Just Tony
11-11-2007, 22:32
How are you having a magical shield and magical lance on a BSB? I'm pretty sure the rule is STILL if you can't have the mundane version, you can't have the magical version. And none of this nonsense of it not counting as a lance, it SAYS lance in its description.

EvC
12-11-2007, 11:06
Thanks for the replies, it was a fun, but harsh game. Just Tony, in the new rulebook BSBs are free to take any equipment they like, I suggest you pick up the book before chastising people for their mistakes ;)

One mistake I did realise we made was that the Chaos player never tried to dispel the Flames in his subsequent dispel phase- good thing the spell didn't wipe out his whole unit!

Whistler
12-11-2007, 15:56
So you are saying that a BSB can carry a HW or Spear or Lance or whatnot and a shield and a standard ?Another HE special rule then ?Cuz in my books he can't carry a shield nor a GW.Correct me if i'm wrong though ;)

enyoss
12-11-2007, 17:45
Cuz in my books he can't carry a shield nor a GW.Correct me if i'm wrong though ;)

New book, p92, no such restrictions ;).

Cheers,

enyoss

brambleten
12-11-2007, 18:07
Er are you sure the star lance gives its +3 strength when you arent charging?
Not that it mattered, just want some clarification on it please.

it gives +3 instead of +2, like a lance, and you get no armour saves against it

Whistler
12-11-2007, 18:28
I stand corrected :).

Boss_Salvage
12-11-2007, 18:56
All that was left to do was the Silver Helms return to the table to receive a charge from one of the Chariots. My luck continued to ruin the game, and the Mage fled off the table, meaning that the Flames of the Phoenix, which would have been S6, was cancelled. The Warriors and their four standards would survive the battle.
:evilgrin: Hahaha!


New book, p92, no such restrictions .

Cheers,

enyoss
It falls to your army book's specific restrictions as the BRB doesn't say anything on the subject. Most if not all army books specify no additional mundane weapons, but do not restrict magical ones (except that you can't take a magic standard in addition to any other magic items).

Great report, and insanely bad luck. Cool to see more of the new HE in action though. Are dragon princes akin to grail knights, by the way? Maybe not all characters, but stubborn, ItP, etc?

- Salvage

EvC
12-11-2007, 19:26
They don't have any proper special rules, but high WS and LD, and 2 attacks each makes them very good troops.

FatOlaf
13-11-2007, 12:54
Very bad luck Evc, funny how chariots ruled the day, especially fleeing ones taking out both the giant and the Demon.
Look foward to the 7 Elves BR (even though I know the result ;) )

logan054
17-11-2007, 10:11
yeah i certainly have a new love for chariots now mate, yet again however my exalted daemon died in the silly way :( Its a shame i didnt get to try out the giant against the SM either.

One correction, the SM did not wipe out the furies with ease, i sill had 4 of 7 left before i popped ( i did make a fair few ward saves :D) It was a very good game its just funny how i couldnt beat the old elves but first game against the new ones went very well.

Chiungalla
18-11-2007, 17:39
Er are you sure the star lance gives its +3 strength when you arent charging?
Not that it mattered, just want some clarification on it please.

No, it will not work, if you are not charging.

logan054
18-11-2007, 21:36
yeah but it was a overrun with the star lance.

EvC
19-11-2007, 14:21
One correction, the SM did not wipe out the furies with ease, i sill had 4 of 7 left before i popped ( i did make a fair few ward saves :D) It was a very good game its just funny how i couldnt beat the old elves but first game against the new ones went very well.

Okay, I stand corrected, that's how bad my dice are (and always will be, it seems)!

logan054
19-11-2007, 21:38
no its just my lucky wardsaves :) not that it mattered :(

MEanBOb12
21-11-2007, 00:58
Well i would think that ASF would anihialte a close combat army like chaos. But this guy surprised me and used chaos warriors, not the usual mauraders.
Well you cant win them all.

logan054
22-11-2007, 22:37
what with T4 and a 3+ save in combat, SM and dragon princes are the only real problem for warriors.

Latro
28-11-2007, 07:42
yeah but it was a overrun with the star lance.

Well, according to the battle report the Dragon Princes overran (=charged) into a Khorne Warrior unit and were then charged themselves by the Khorne Chariot ...

Which makes me wonder if the Dragon Princes are allowed to claim charge-benefits against the Chariot.


:cool:

EvC
28-11-2007, 11:11
Yes, they can, because as long as they're charging, then they're charging.

logan054
28-11-2007, 12:29
Well, according to the battle report the Dragon Princes overran (=charged) into a Khorne Warrior unit and were then charged themselves by the Khorne Chariot ...

Which makes me wonder if the Dragon Princes are allowed to claim charge-benefits against the Chariot.


:cool:

I am telling you what happened as it my damn chaos army in the battle report :wtf: :confused: sadly thats what the rules, you count as charging (but i guess you could argue you only count as charging the warriors), its wierd and silly, anyways not that it mattered :P

Latro
28-11-2007, 17:53
I am telling you what happened as it my damn chaos army in the battle report :confused: sadly thats what the rules, you count as charging (but i guess you could argue you only count as charging the warriors), its wierd and silly, anyways not that it mattered :P

:eyebrows: ... no one is questioning how you guys played it, I was only wondering if that was the correct way of playing it. After all most will agree that it's a weird situation.

The rules at the moment only allow it to be played one way though ... and that's the weird way. It would take a very clear and specific FAQ to change that (and I'm not going to hold my breath for that).


:cool:

(PS Blood for the Blood God! :evilgrin:)

logan054
28-11-2007, 18:04
I think the sad thing is GW kept is simple not really bearing in mind lances in such a postion, not the first time EvC has done it when having a VC with lance overrun into a unit fo warriors and then flank charged bt a daemon prince and claiming the +2 strength for the lance, i think really the lance needs one little rule +2 strength to the front but i guess sadly the designers rely on people common sense for these things.

EvC
28-11-2007, 18:28
Or we all just accept it's just an abstraction in the first place, the two chargers crash into each other at the same time, instead of being awfully polite and waiting for each other to move in turn, thus both should get to use any benefits they might get from charging, end of story.

Now if I ever take a unit of Spearmen and overrun into an enemy unit and then declare they can fight with all ranks in the next turn's combat phase because they didn't move that turn, or did a similar overrun move with a chariot and claim that I can cause impact hits on whoever charged the chariot, then you get to whack me with the common sense stick :D

Latro
28-11-2007, 19:34
Abstraction is something used to simplify a very complex situation ... not when one simple rule would result in a much more realistic situation:

Example: the charge bonus coming from weapons is only applied to enemies fighting to the front of the unit.

This allows for both units crashing into eachother, like your example, but not for getting a bonus when you end being charged from behind.


:cool:

logan054
28-11-2007, 22:48
Or we all just accept it's just an abstraction in the first place, the two chargers crash into each other at the same time, instead of being awfully polite and waiting for each other to move in turn, thus both should get to use any benefits they might get from charging, end of story.

Now if I ever take a unit of Spearmen and overrun into an enemy unit and then declare they can fight with all ranks in the next turn's combat phase because they didn't move that turn, or did a similar overrun move with a chariot and claim that I can cause impact hits on whoever charged the chariot, then you get to whack me with the common sense stick :D

I have to say its not the same thing, the chariot dosnt run infront of you while while you charge into the warriors does it, no, you need forward momentum to get the killing power from a charge!

Still did i argue about it at the time, no!!!! i just think its rather wierd, something that rules boys didnt consider, is this your fault, no! can i blame you for using it, yes and no, depends on my mood at the time ;)
Whats more silly is you would still get that bonus if i rear charge you with a counter charge!

As for the spears, actually the rules wouldnt allow you to claim fighting in a extra rank if you charged cos it counts a fresh charge so i would whack you with the cheating fecker stick :P

EvC
29-11-2007, 09:17
Abstraction is something used to simplify a very complex situation ... not when one simple rule would result in a much more realistic situation:

Example: the charge bonus coming from weapons is only applied to enemies fighting to the front of the unit.

This allows for both units crashing into eachother, like your example, but not for getting a bonus when you end being charged from behind.

I bet in Lord of the Rings we could imagine a scene where a valiant hero charges in and somehow uses his momentum to whack a guy behind him. Fun rules! :wtf:

Okay I see your point logan054, though every time one of your units is fleeing and you still claim its dispel dice means you have less and less of a leg to stand on where it comes to common sense :D

logan054
29-11-2007, 17:31
Hey, you like to play raw, if you want to make house rules im fine with that :P im happy not to generate dispel dice if i flee if you can use lances to to the side and rear.