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Kroxigore
11-11-2007, 19:19
I just went through the GW FAQ for the basic rulebook and one thing really struck me. The question, wether it was legal to get a unit, that blocks a charge path to the enemy, out of the way by letting it charge some other enemy unit (even if it is obvious, that it will fail the charge).
If I got that right, one could even let both units charge the enemy, right? IIRC the enemie's frontage is halved between the charging units, so both units should be able to charge. Now have I neglected something or is this opening a loophole?
I mean, an army with screens can get very nasty with this interpretation of the rules. You only have to place the screens with small gaps between them, so that the units behind them have LOS to the enemy. The only choice, that the enemy has is charging the screens or waiting for the units behind the screens to charge simultaniously with the screens. The latter should be rather bad for the enemy and if you have enough chariots or other hard hitting stuff in your army, charging the screens isn't a valid decision either. Now am I getting something wrong or what? Please correct me!

theunwantedbeing
11-11-2007, 20:20
Declaring obviously out of range charges results in you not getting to make that charge with that particular unit.

Nothing stops you from charging 2 units at the same unit(when they appear to be in range of course) even if the unit behind can only barely see the unit it is charging.
Assuming you get the deployment correct with such a tactic the unit behind could be in a position to flank.

gerrymander61
11-11-2007, 21:11
Obviously out of range charges are illegal. Lol, the Warp Lightning Cannon "always flee charges" rule would be pissy if it weren't illegal.

Kroxigore
12-11-2007, 03:21
Obviously out of range charges are illegal. Lol, the Warp Lightning Cannon "always flee charges" rule would be pissy if it weren't illegal.

Well, if you read the FAQ for the rulebook, they definitely aren't illegal. In the FAQ they say something like it's bad sports, but it's legal. I don't know the exact rules for the warp lightning cannon, but I guess it says something, that you should determine, wether it is in charge range before it flees. At least this would make sense.

Braad
12-11-2007, 07:48
So you just take a load of terror causing units and charge everything you can every turn from turn 1 on, even though they are 30" away, and hope they flee the board.

It's been some time though... terror test are taken before measuring to see the distance, right?

Atrahasis
12-11-2007, 08:31
Well, if you read the FAQ for the rulebook, they definitely aren't illegal. In the FAQ they say something like it's bad sports, but it's legal. I don't know the exact rules for the warp lightning cannon, but I guess it says something, that you should determine, wether it is in charge range before it flees. At least this would make sense.

No, the FAQ says that charges that are obviously out of range are "cheating".

smileyface
12-11-2007, 09:54
Declaring obviously out of range charges results in you not getting to make that charge with that particular unit.

Nothing stops you from charging 2 units at the same unit(when they appear to be in range of course) even if the unit behind can only barely see the unit it is charging.
Assuming you get the deployment correct with such a tactic the unit behind could be in a position to flank.

What he said. Also, most screening units are screen unit precisely because they are rubbish. E.G. warhounds. If those charge you then it's pretty close to being given free combat res.

Chicago Slim
12-11-2007, 12:59
So, to wrap this up:

A unit behind a friendly screening unit cannot move through that screen during the Move Chargers phase, and so will only succeed at a charge if the screen is also charging.
A screening unit and the unit behind it can both declare a combined charge on the same enemy, if and only if they both have LoS and are believed to be in range.
It is also possible to declare a charge with the screening unit against a separate target, if and only if they are believed to be in range; in this case, the acting player moves the charging units in the order in which charges were declared (so be sure to declare the charge from the screen unit first!); in this case, even a failed charge by the screen MAY be enough to clear room for it.
In many cases, a combined charge from a screen and a regular unit would not be advantageous, because the screening unit is of poor quality and likely to generate combat resolution for the enemy, as they die.

Anaris
12-11-2007, 13:30
What I really want to know is when is a charge clearly out of range? Who decides?

Atrahasis
12-11-2007, 16:14
Me. make sure you have an internet connection near every game so you can PM me.

T10
12-11-2007, 16:17
You decide, of course. You're not going to cheat, are you?

-T10

Kroxigore
12-11-2007, 17:47
No, the FAQ says that charges that are obviously out of range are "cheating".

Having looked at it again, you're absolutely right, I don't know, how I got that one wrong.:confused:


What he said. Also, most screening units are screen unit precisely because they are rubbish. E.G. warhounds. If those charge you then it's pretty close to being given free combat res.

I must disagree on that one. Warhounds would actually be pretty good for that job, as they have high unit strength and get rank bonus. If you manage to get the unit strength above the enemy's, this is a combat result bonus of +2. This is often neglected. And if you have some hard hitting monster/unit charging with them, you won't have too many enemies hitting back at them.
Btw. does anyone know, if the rule that one should try to get as many models into CC applies in multiple charges? I would consider it a bit 'cheesy' to be forced to let my chariot clip the enemy unit.
Actually I am currently thinking about sending some skinks into CC. :D
I know, it sounds stupid, but I play a sacred host of quetzl and at least they have a 4+ armorsave in CC. I just like the idea of getting a charge with a unit of saurus-Cav, that couldn't be shot at from the gound (at least not by stand or shoot units) :)

Anaris
13-11-2007, 10:08
No the point I was making is that all players have a different spatial awareness and are better that looking at two units on a table and knowing how far apart they are.

I'll admit, I'm unless at it, in that I constantly find myself with units either failing a charge by a few inches or being out of range by an inch or two. On the other hand, I have a friend who used to play a few years ago and his guess ranges and the like were accurate to millimetres (or it seemed that way at least).

This then brings up situations where a player could want to declare a charge to get a unit out of the way for a unit behind it, but they might honestly believe the charge has a chance of success, meanwhile, across the table, his opponent is ready to call him for this charge, which is his mind (coz he's got a better eye for distances) is clearly out.

So, back to the original question, who then decides if they charge is clearly out?

sainthale1988
13-11-2007, 11:33
also linked into this could i ask that if a missile unit is charged by multiply units and can have a stand and shoot reaction, does it shoot at both or just the first charger?

if so you could have a screen charge from close enough to prevent getting shot at (eg. warhounds) then charge in an expensive unit you don't want getting shot up charging home (eg. chaos warrirors).

Artemis
13-11-2007, 11:47
@ Anaris: First of all, it does not really matter if your opponent thinks that a charge is clearly out of range. As long as you believe that the charge is possible when you declare it, you are not doing anything wrong. So, technically, "guilt" has to be established. That may be a little difficult, but it is also very hard to establish an objective distance margin as to when a charge declaration is always out. That will depend on terrain, the charging unit's movement and the distance to the target. An Alter Noble with an 18" charge range can be a little difficult to guess correctly with...

So to sum up, I would only challenge a charge when I know that my opponent knows that the charge doesn't have range, and he is declaring a charge to force me to make a reaction (which isn't really a problem as long as I know the charge is out of range and can choose my unit's reaction).

If your opponent feels that you declared a charge that you knew would not have range, try to discuss it between you. If that does not worl, it is best to get someone else over to have a look. In a tournament a ref shoud be called. I would not dice off - it would be wrong if the dice should be able to label someone as cheating....

@sainthale: You stand and shoot before moving any chargers - but you can only shoot at one of the unit charging you. BRB p. 19.

Axis
14-11-2007, 11:12
If people are being retards and you think the charges they are declaring are obviously going to fail. i.e. to exploit warp-lightning cannon then there is a simple solution. Grit your teeth, finish the game and never play them again.