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View Full Version : 2000pt list, attempt at balance and theme. Any help please?



Treadhead_1st
11-11-2007, 23:42
Ok, I wanted to do High Elves in the last edition, but due to the redux I waited it out to see if I could still take my very special Mage.

This is an attempt at a balanced 2000pt list, designed to play in all phases but attempt to dominate in the Combat phase.

Please can you give me some feedback on the list, as I am still trying to find my way around Elves in general, let alone the brand new High Elves we have.

The theme is a "Sundered Kindred" hunting Dark Elves across the Old World on a mysterious chase... (don't ask, it's too long to explain) - essentially they are isolated from the courts of Ulthan, and have to support themselves in the field...and are mistrusted by many other elves.

The Archmage was found in the forests of the Empire, and is slightly feral from centuries of isolation...and rides around in a gore-soaked Chariot she found crashing through the forest (the previous riders having been slain by an ambush of Beastmen).


Lords

Archmage: Level 3, Hand Weapon, Starwood Staff, Ring of Fury, Power Stone & Tiranoc Chariot.
410

Heroes

Noble: Hand Weapon, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Dragonscale Shield & Amulet of Fire.
137

Mage: Level 1, Hand Weapon, Silver Wand, Dispel Scroll.
130

Core

Spearmen: 20 Elves, Musician & Standard Bearer.
195

Spearmen: 20 Elves, Musician & Standard Bearer.
195

Special

6 Ellyrian Reavers: Spears & Bows.
126


17 Phoenix Guard: Full Command & Banner of Sorcery.
330

5 Shadow Warriors.
80

Tiranoc Chariot.
85

Tiranoc Chariot.
85

Rare

Repeater Bolt Thrower.
100

Repeater Bolt Thrower.
100

1995

64 Infantry, 6 Cavalry, 3 Chariots & 2 Bolt Throwers.


Noble joins the Phoenix Guard [6x3 formation]

Repeater Bolt Throwers take a good position on a flank, guarded by the Ellyrian Reavers.

Level 1 floats around somewhere.

Chariots & chariot-mage take the other flank. They roll on like a set of bowling balls, but attempt to avoid LOS of enemy war machines.

Shadow Warriors hunt enemy war machines.

So what do you think?

A few uses of the last points I've thought of are:

1) Power Stone on Mage
2) Make Reavers Sea Guard
3) Extra Reaver

4) Make Reavers Silver Helms - more CC, less shooty. More useful when enemy has no fast units to threaten War Machines

5) I could replace the Ellyrian Reavers with 10/11 Sea Guard (joined by the Mage) to hold the flank. Stand & shoot, plus Spear ranks - should have some hittiness to it! Better or worse than Reavers? The advantage being here that the Mage can hide safely in the ranks, instead of being on his own.

Many thanks for anyone who takes the time to read this and help out a new player.

Treadhead_1st
12-11-2007, 23:04
*shameless bump*

Anyone have any thoughts on this? Lots of views and no comments...

brakke_aep
12-11-2007, 23:44
Hi. I haven't red the new book jet, but I have played many battles with HE

Your archmage is lot of points and very fragile for any type of missile fire. Many cannons would love to shoot at him. And in combat he is toast. A chariot is not a good mount for him. An eagle would be much better due his mobility or put him on foot for the protection. Oh and the 35 points saved make him L4. The same count for your other mage. Personally I think that 1 L4 or 2L2 in combination with BOS is more than enough magic. 9 powerdices is plenty.

DH on a noble is with the new book always good. But I doubt giving him a shield then. He is in a unit so he has no fear of missiles and magic.

If you play with so much magic change the PG to Swordmasters. Just for the fluff but they are with 2A devastating in combat.

Ellyrian reavers are only good in combination with Heavy cavalry. They can flank when your opponment focuses on the Heavy cav. I think 5 is enough. Try to add some helms or even princes. Even with the new book HE still need them.

Down a little on magic and put some Heavy cavalry in your list and I think it would be very competative.

Oh and please slay some Dark Elves for me too

Wreckage
13-11-2007, 00:14
Your archmage is lot of points and very fragile for any type of missile fire. Many cannons would love to shoot at him. And in combat he is toast. A chariot is not a good mount for him.
+1, It's a missile magnet.

Treadhead_1st
13-11-2007, 01:29
The Mage on chariot has to stay, it's a cornerstone model in the army (spent around 50 hours converting and painting it).

Here is the mage in a new iteration, with a little more protection from the nasty things that want to hurt it:

Archmage: Level 4, Hand Weapon, Seerstaff of Saphery, Ring of Fury, Guardian Phoenix & Tiranoc Chariot.
440 (had to lose an Ellyrian Reaver to do this)

Mage: Level 1, Hand Weapon & Dispel Scroll.
120

Noble: Hand Weapon, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Dragonscale Shield & Amulet of Fire.
137

Core

Spearmen: 20 Elves, Musician & Standard Bearer.
195

Spearmen: 20 Elves, Musician & Standard Bearer.
195

Special

5 Ellyrian Reavers: Spears & Bows.
105


17 Phoenix Guard: Full Command & Banner of Sorcery.
330

5 Shadow Warriors.
80

Tiranoc Chariot.
85

Tiranoc Chariot.
85

Rare

Repeater Bolt Thrower.
100

Repeater Bolt Thrower.
100

1977 (23)

[note, still have 23 points that could get me another Dispel scroll or similar - but will it be needed, with the plan detailed below? Annoying that it isn't quite enough to bump the Mage up a level. Could take Ring of Corin to be REALLY annoying?]

Level 1's sole use is to use the Dispel Scroll first off against the nastiest thing coming my way, then cast Drain Magic to keep the worst of the enemy's magic at bay (obviously this is after the Archmage has done funky stuff) - if the enemy holds back dice to dispel Drain Magic, then more of the Archmage's attacks go through. If not, then it's harder for them to cast spells next turn. Does this make him more useful to the list?

Archmage is less hitty now, at first glance, but is a good deal more survivable, and I do intend to stay out of combat as much as possible (Chariot model is just cool, and it's a little extra power when I'm trapped) - would even screen with the regular chariots to protect this investment. Decided to keep Ring of Fury to have one of the best spells (IMO) from the HE list in addition to whichever lore is chosen. And it won't use power dice, which is always nice, even though I should have enough to go around (to be honest the Powerstone was just brutal overkill, but fun). Can take Lore of Fire (Flaming sword of Rhuin) to boost combat survival more. Tbh, the magic I chose will vary depending on the opponent (doon't thin kyou have to declare on the army list what magic you use, don't you choose after deployment?)

Still not sure where to put my Lvl 1 though. At the moment he'll be floating around on his own in my backfield. Mind you, backed up by the Cavalry, this could be fairly safe, especially if the enemy decided to focus on the RBTs and Archmage.


Is it a good idea to bump the Ellyrian Reavers up to Silverhelms, solely to hunt enemy Fast Cav? It would be a lot of punch (and same cost w/o shields), just no shooting. Are cavalry a good idea to guard War Machines anyway? I'm thinking they would cut through Dark Riders, Warhounds and similar units with ease. Their role is to take on anything that can threaten the Lvl1mage/Warmachines - so I guess Ellyrians's won't cut it, since when facing, say, 5 Dark Riders, there won't be much in my advantage in terms of contact statistics. Silverhelms, on the other hand...

Treadhead_1st
13-11-2007, 22:35
Ok, how competative do you feel the above army is (obviously depends on how well it's played)? I have a tourney coming up soon, and am wodneirng if this will stand up to a wide range of opponents.

What's going to be better for guarding the War Machines/sweeping a flank - the Silver Helms or Ellyrian Reavers? Can't get the points for Dragon Princes, unfortunately. So - fast cav or Heavy Cav for a defense/offense mixed role?

Still need to sort out the Noble's equipment too. Any thoughts on a good combo now that I can't take the Guardian Phoenix?

Wreckage
13-11-2007, 22:46
The fast cav/heavy cav is largely personal choice and preferrence. I prefer the armor and lances over maneuverability and bows. It's a choice you'll have to make based on your style.

I like giving a Noble the Radiant Gem, either picking the Lore of Heavens (portent is great for him!), or High magic for the drain/ward spells.

Choose the Noble as your General so your archmage isn't worth 540vp's
Definitely squeeze in an Eagle, they are so dang handy.

Treadhead_1st
14-11-2007, 00:22
The Noble is REALLY bugging me now.

All I want is one that can cut through RnF effectively - but I have already used the best protective item available.

The choices I have left are:

Armour of Protection and Great Weapon (6+/4+)
Heavy Armour, Talisman of Protection & White Sword (5+/6+ - good attacks)
Armour of Caledor, Talsiman of Protection & Great Weapon (2+/6+)

The only thing I worry about is whether I would need a magic weapon or not. The second combo listed here is potent, but just can't take any hits - but would I have to with S6, Killing Blow and ASF?

Nobel WILL be General, so I guess he has to be survivable. Unfortuately he also has to be in my fighting line, so needs to be able to dish it out good & proper too, against enemy chars if need be (too many bad memories of enemy challenging my Empire Elector on Foot!)

Any thoughts on hwo to equip my Noble, now that I have used the Phoenix already (bearing in mind I am using the Eltharion model, and require WYSIWYG)

Treadhead_1st
14-11-2007, 03:08
Also, I am wondering if my magic is potent enough:

Do I have enough power dice?

My thinking is this:

If I split my basic pool evenly between the 2 Mages each turn, and assign all the Banner dice to the Archmage then I get :

6-8 Power Dice.

Assuming a roll of 7 on 2 dice, and going by Lord of Fire, this means I can cast either:

1 top level spell (11/12+) and 1-2 low level spells (4/5+) reliably [depends on Banner roll],

or 2 mid level spells reliably (8+) and perhaps 1 low level spell [depends on banner roll].

Other 2 dice (1 form pool, 1 generated) go to my Level 1 to get off Shield of Saphery/Drain Magic etc


Doesn't seem exactly game breaking, especially when the opponent will have around 5 dispel dice (seems to be tournament average).

Obviously I can get more spells off using Lores of Beasts and Life, but these seem to be less powerful lores generally.

Am I missing something magic-wise here? Is this an argument for trying to fit the Powerstones back in (although I want to keep the Guardian Phoenix, because challenging Teclis and winning [Sword of Rhuin] is a laugh)?

Tobias
14-11-2007, 05:36
Your charachter choice is weak, you could better upgrade both mages or just take 2 lvl 2/1 lvl 4. And drop the chariot for the archmage, you do not want him there. Seerstaff on archmag is useless give him silver wand and you have 5/6 spells big chance you get what you need.

Also You are more a defending army, Seaguard would be good. Some eagles would be great te slow down the enemy and/or destroy war machines.

And what's up with the commander? Worst combo I have seen in a while, change that.

Avatar of the Eldar
14-11-2007, 06:03
The Mage on chariot has to stay, it's a cornerstone model in the army (spent around 50 hours converting and painting it).

Here is the mage in a new iteration, with a little more protection from the nasty things that want to hurt it:

Archmage: Level 4, Hand Weapon, Seerstaff of Saphery, Ring of Fury, Guardian Phoenix & Tiranoc Chariot.
440 (had to lose an Ellyrian Reaver to do this)

Mage: Level 1, Hand Weapon & Dispel Scroll.
120

Noble: Hand Weapon, Great Weapon, Heavy Armour, Dragonscale Shield & Amulet of Fire.
137

Core

Spearmen: 20 Elves, Musician & Standard Bearer.
195

Spearmen: 20 Elves, Musician & Standard Bearer.
195

Special

5 Ellyrian Reavers: Spears & Bows.
105


17 Phoenix Guard: Full Command & Banner of Sorcery.
330

5 Shadow Warriors.
80

Tiranoc Chariot.
85

Tiranoc Chariot.
85

Rare

Repeater Bolt Thrower.
100

Repeater Bolt Thrower.
100

1977 (23)

[note, still have 23 points that could get me another Dispel scroll or similar - but will it be needed, with the plan detailed below? Annoying that it isn't quite enough to bump the Mage up a level. Could take Ring of Corin to be REALLY annoying?]

Level 1's sole use is to use the Dispel Scroll first off against the nastiest thing coming my way, then cast Drain Magic to keep the worst of the enemy's magic at bay (obviously this is after the Archmage has done funky stuff) - if the enemy holds back dice to dispel Drain Magic, then more of the Archmage's attacks go through. If not, then it's harder for them to cast spells next turn. Does this make him more useful to the list?

Archmage is less hitty now, at first glance, but is a good deal more survivable, and I do intend to stay out of combat as much as possible (Chariot model is just cool, and it's a little extra power when I'm trapped) - would even screen with the regular chariots to protect this investment. Decided to keep Ring of Fury to have one of the best spells (IMO) from the HE list in addition to whichever lore is chosen. And it won't use power dice, which is always nice, even though I should have enough to go around (to be honest the Powerstone was just brutal overkill, but fun). Can take Lore of Fire (Flaming sword of Rhuin) to boost combat survival more. Tbh, the magic I chose will vary depending on the opponent (doon't thin kyou have to declare on the army list what magic you use, don't you choose after deployment?)

Still not sure where to put my Lvl 1 though. At the moment he'll be floating around on his own in my backfield. Mind you, backed up by the Cavalry, this could be fairly safe, especially if the enemy decided to focus on the RBTs and Archmage.


Is it a good idea to bump the Ellyrian Reavers up to Silverhelms, solely to hunt enemy Fast Cav? It would be a lot of punch (and same cost w/o shields), just no shooting. Are cavalry a good idea to guard War Machines anyway? I'm thinking they would cut through Dark Riders, Warhounds and similar units with ease. Their role is to take on anything that can threaten the Lvl1mage/Warmachines - so I guess Ellyrians's won't cut it, since when facing, say, 5 Dark Riders, there won't be much in my advantage in terms of contact statistics. Silverhelms, on the other hand...

OK, I understand about your attachment to your converted model. I hope the mage model is removeable because that chariot is going to get shot out from under him lickity-split. Better keep those Shadow Warriors close because he's going to need a refuge. I'd sooner put him in a big unit of spears. At least give him Sacred Incense to reduce the shooting risk.

Dump the Reavers. You could get two Eagles and have change left over. Personally, I'd opt for White Lions first, Swordmasters second and PG third. But give em a whirl and if they're not getting the job done, try Lions.

For your Noble on foot, what about Helm of Fortune + Guardian Phoenix + Great Weapon? 4+ rerollable and then a 5+ ward. Pretty protecty.

forgottenlor
14-11-2007, 08:25
I haven't read the new book either, but would avoid the killing blow. killing blow is mathematically not particularly good. A noble will hit probably 2 times a round meaning and with strength 6 will probably wound on 2+. Killing blow only works well against mansized targets with 2+ wounds and no ward save or regeneration, and then you only have 33% chance a round to score one. IMO against another hero striking first with strength 6 will be enough and against an enemy commander you will probably die before executing your killing blow.

Treadhead_1st
14-11-2007, 10:22
I agree that the Chariot mage is fragile, that's why I opted to take the Guardian Phoenix and 2 "bodyguard" chariots. It's something that opponents tend not to expect, and having an Archmage that can dish it out with Impact Hits (when supported) is actually quite useful, as it means that the Archmage can bash it's way through weak units trying to pin her in/take her down.

@Tobias, I already have a Level 4 mage, so would taking just the Level 4 be better than the Level 4 and defensive level 1? without the Level 1, I have no magical defense - so dropping him is a bad idea, but can't see where to get the points to upgrade to Level 2 - and the plan is that he will only ever use one of 2 spells - Drain Magic or Shield of Saphery.

My army is meant to be offensive - Chariots flank, Infantry advances and RBT provide cover fire. Sitting back means the enemy has longer to shoot me - something Elves don't like, it would seem.

@forgottenlor & Avatar of the Eldar: Yeah, the Noble is still something I am trying to work out - it's tricky to find a magic combo that works out, especially with the guardian Phoenix being used to protect the Archmage already.

How about Armour of Heroes and Talisman of Protection for defense? It's getting really annoying trying to find something that will work - the Ld test means that it's a bit of extra protection, much alike a Ward Save, and then i have my Ward Save too. It's not fantastic, but with no Phoenix left it's really hard to give my Noble any hope of survival.

@forgottenlor: Killing Blow ignores Regeneration too - you only get Ward Saves against it, and the Sword is magical, and there are a fair few Ward Saves that are Vs Mundane only. still, the sword is a lot of point over a normal GW, and leaves no room for protection.

2thesword
14-11-2007, 10:40
just a question but does the chariot driving feral mage have to be an archmage?

I don't know the history or story that you've obviously developed for him (her?) but would the story still fit if it was a crazy lvl 2 mage in a chariot? This makes him less expensive, which in turn allows the other mage to be boosted to lvl 2 and take some nifty items.

How about lvl 2 on chariot with offensive/movement lore;
lvl 2 on foot with High magic - use for dispel scrolls and casting drain magic each turn
Noble on foot with GW, Hvy Armour and either all protective items; some protective and the Ring Fury (to soak dispel dice) or use the gem hoeth and turn him into another protective high magic wizard

Your infantry units aren't big enough to cross a battlefield and absorb any kind of missle fire so I'm going to assume that their an anchor, with each flank trying to wrap around.

Id change tactics slightly and swap a spearmen unit for seaguard (deploy in long line to begin with) and have the RBTs, sea guard and one chariot guarding the flank... chariots are excellent counter-charge units, especially against fast cav etc.

then I'd try and swap the reavers for silver helms and have the helms, chariot, and chariot mage with movement lore on the other flank... these are your hammer units.

I have no idea how many points this is, but try and fit in an eagle, then use eagle to march block anything threatening the main line and/or RBTs to allow an extra turn of shooting; use shadow warriors to war machine hunt

Treadhead_1st
14-11-2007, 12:37
Do I have enough shooting for 2,000 points with just 2 RBT?

It would appear there are a lot of 2x Dragon lists appearing, and lots of Swordmaster lists, and there will always be the Empire Gunline armies to face.

Will 2x RBT be able to cope? I am beginning to feel like they won't, as Dragons can fly, meaning they will be upon me in 2 turns, and it would take 2 turns of shooting the RBT at best to kill the strongest Dragons out there (and that is rolling all 3s to wound).

Should I try to fit more Archers into my force then?

I could lose a Chariot and 3 Phoenix Guard to fit in a unit of 10 Archers. But, will this compromise my flank too much? The lack of impact hits does suggest so, but with the Archers "guarding" my RBT I can move the Silver Helms to support the (now) pair of Chariots.

Or, I could lose a Chariot for another unit of 5 Shadow Warriors, enabling me to clear the back field around the Dragons more easily, as I can target multiple war machines at once. Then they can turn around and aid their bowfire to take on the monsters behind them (but the likely hood is that the Dragons will now be in combat, thus untargetable.).


Or am I underestimating what RBTs can do? I know that they strip infantry ranks well with their "Volley" shots, and I could easily deal with a single Dragon with them, I just worry about pairs of monsters.

Do I need archer support? If yes, what would be the best thing to lose to gain the extra firepower?