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View Full Version : Can someone give me a good reason to take Silver Helms



Petey
12-11-2007, 08:10
I m not allowed to post points so i won't. But i will say there 's a seven point difference between silver helms and dragon princes.

Both of these units are special. Despite having more special choices, why would you waste any on silver helms, when you have DP. They cost a tiny bit more, for twice the killing power (more actually) AND they can be given a magic banner. Why would one decide to take SH for any non Fluff reason? I ve tried to do the math on this and it doesn't make sense to me.

If you do an all cav. army, the handful of points you re saving per unit(of SH) amounts to the ability to have another unit of core. You don't need it, you re going heavy cav.

If you do an infantry army with a lil bit of cav. as support, it seems absolutely crazy to take the DP as it s easy to shave the few points you need off something else.

I may be a fool, but i don't see how this is a fair use of a special slot, or a good use of points. And they certainly aren't the mainstay for elven cavalry (which is what they're billed as). Is this just where the ball was dropped for this armybook? Because the rest of the book seems fine. The silver helms just seem to suck. Help me out here.

Flypaper
12-11-2007, 08:27
Plastic. What sane person would take Saurus Cavalry when they're competing with Kroxigor in the same slot? But Saurus Cav adoption quintoupled when the plastic set was released.

Gaming reasons? Small flanker units (5 naked with musician) are all I've got - but of course there's Reavers, who should be filling that role if necessary.

adreal
12-11-2007, 08:27
I think, mainly because people will have the spare models, and they are cheaper then the DP's, bung in a fighty hero and the killing power doesn't even matter, they are ablative wounds for your super character

mot666
12-11-2007, 10:42
Because a box of 8 SHs is a lot cheaper than a box of 5 DPs.

yelf
12-11-2007, 10:51
Because for the same price in points, you have about 3 SH or 2 DP.
That makes silver helm longer to kill and gives them a better unit strength.

Noldo
12-11-2007, 11:27
If you are planning to use them solely for flanking, with main function of giving effectively 4-5 points of Combat Resolution (flank, removal of ranks and maybe outnumber), the 30+ points you can save compared to Dragon Princes can have large effect elsewhere in the army.

Some would say that unit of Dragon Princes could operate also alone, but then you would need to add some 20 points to the above difference, since unit operating alone would more likely need a standard, whereas a cheap flanker can get away without one.

Also a unit of Silver Helms with fighty character can be good way of spreading out points across the battlefield and lets face it, unit of Dragon Princes with Noble (or Prince) is overkill.

oop
12-11-2007, 11:39
Because you want to use a small, cheap and fast unit to divert charges, prevent units from marching, flank charging and annoy the enemy?

The special slot won´t be so much of a trouble foe HE players. you have plenty of them!

Tutore
12-11-2007, 12:48
Because they are cheaper, and both units aren't supposed to kill much things. Although a big unit of DP WITH a hero inside could break a ranked unit charging the front, most DP units will struggle performing such a task. They still have puny S5 attacks when charging. Thus, you may have a 113 points worth SH units to make flank charges (5 helms + musician) instead of a 160 points worth unit of DP, performing ALMOST the same task. However, I must admit I never saw the new DP in battle yet, so I could be wrong.

flopi
12-11-2007, 14:30
Because you want to use a small, cheap and fast unit to divert charges, prevent units from marching, flank charging and annoy the enemy?

That is the Ellyrian Reavers role, are cheaper and faster, AND ligth cavalry. The silverhelms could be good for that... without the compulsory barding.

The Silver Helms major virtue is that they cost less money, no less points.

brambleten
12-11-2007, 18:45
I m not allowed to post points so i won't. But i will say there 's a seven point difference between silver helms and dragon princes.

it seems to be a 9pt difference actually, which means for every SH you take instead of a DP, you can take another spear elf

Heretic Burner
12-11-2007, 18:56
They still have puny S5 attacks when charging.

Heh only in the HE book can S5 be considered puny.

Silverhelms are cheaper than DP, a reason right there to take them. With 6 special slots it is more than possible to take a force much like traditional 6th edition cav heavy armies - which were Silverhelm heavy and have proven to be very effective.

The Silverhelm is a very good heavy cavalry unit and we should all know how powerful they can be in Warhammer. An excellent, dependable, useful purchase for almost any army.

Prince Sairion
12-11-2007, 19:08
He he, and mine never hit to get those s5 charges off. Great at hitting at s3 tho!

I hava five units of ten in my army, plus a couple more. I still rate them, but when looking at including foot troops in a 2k(ish) army they don't come close to getting picked unfortunately.

To be fair though, for the points and a 2+ armour save and a 16" charge, they are very good.

DP's can go it alone without characters. Helms can perform a similar task, but can also hold a nice hero without you looking at the total points value of the unit and thinking :eek:

Maybe even give them the bsb and the battle banner, and watch the least rated special choice suddenly roll up a flank :D

Petey
13-11-2007, 06:33
@ brambleten
only if you don't bother to give them shields are they nine points less
and if you don't it s kind of foolish, that extra point means so very much. If they had the choice not to take barding that would be another story but they don't

@ everyone else
i think i can accept the "they are cheaper money wise" arguement. Then i curse GW for their stupidity, then continue to support their products.
It's like being in an abusive relationship sometimes

Chiungalla
13-11-2007, 06:47
If you only field one unit of cavalry, you maybe don't want them to be dragon princes, because they are so expensive, and will not make it into close combat against many armies.
They are more expensive, and killed as good as silver helms with shooting.

If you field more units of cavalry, you can't afford them to be all dragon princes.

GranFarfar
13-11-2007, 10:05
Heh only in the HE book can S5 be considered puny.


Well, having 1 S5 on cavalry is rahter puny if you ask me. So many knights out there have more attacks or higher strenght. Not saying this is a problem for HE, just saying that silver helms, as far as knights go, are not that impressive.

Briohmar
13-11-2007, 10:38
Well, having 1 S5 on cavalry is rahter puny if you ask me. So many knights out there have more attacks or higher strenght. Not saying this is a problem for HE, just saying that silver helms, as far as knights go, are not that impressive.

Congrats. You are everything we've come to expect from a High Elf player in these many years. It takes an HE player to get the gifts of the gods so heaped upon his new army book that he is willing to whine that Silver helms still only have 1 paltry S5 attack apiece, though costing less than an Empire, Bretonnian, DOW, Dark Elf, or Chaos Knight, and being able to outcharge all of the above and always strike first. Makes me proud to know that I will NEVER play the Cone headed Cross-dressers.

So many equals two types, Grail knights and Chosen Chaos Knights. One is a rare choice, the other is a 1 per army choice. Both cost more than a DP.

Hesperus
13-11-2007, 11:37
Congrats. You are everything we've come to expect from a High Elf player in these many years.

And Congrates you are everything high elf players come to expect of someone that doesnt like the change, as they wont be able to walk all over the high elves like in previous editions.


Well, having 1 S5 on cavalry is rahter puny if you ask me. So many knights out there have more attacks or higher strenght. Not saying this is a problem for HE, just saying that silver helms, as far as knights go, are not that impressive.

I believe he was trying to say, what is the point of taking a model with 1 str 5 attack when you can take a model with 2 str 5 attacks.


So many equals two types, Grail knights and Chosen Chaos Knights. One is a rare choice, the other is a 1 per army choice. Both cost more than a DP.

Equals????:wtf: Grail knights have a 6+/5+ward save, and the lance formation and Chosen chaos knights, have a better save, toughness and can also have so many variants on them due to all the magic items, marks etc.


being able to outcharge all of the above and always strike first.

This shows to me you just want to whine now, and also says that you dont know the rules that you are talking about. Dragon Princes NOW have the same charge as Bretonnian's.

Tutore
13-11-2007, 12:33
Congrats. You are everything we've come to expect from a High Elf player in these many years. It takes an HE player to get the gifts of the gods so heaped upon his new army book that he is willing to whine that Silver helms still only have 1 paltry S5 attack apiece, though costing less than an Empire, Bretonnian, DOW, Dark Elf, or Chaos Knight, and being able to outcharge all of the above and always strike first. Makes me proud to know that I will NEVER play the Cone headed Cross-dressers.

So many equals two types, Grail knights and Chosen Chaos Knights. One is a rare choice, the other is a 1 per army choice. Both cost more than a DP.

My point of view, from which all this 'puny' thing started, is that DP are no way that more powerful than SH. S5 in charge isn't that good for a heavy cavalry (the empire one may have s6, bretonnia's also, and so on). I believe SH can be very helpful, menacing enemy's flanks. Just the same task I'll give a DP unit. That's why I prefer Silver Helms, I never leave home without 10 of them in 2000 points. I usually leave home dragon princes.

Horn
13-11-2007, 12:56
Silver Helms are of some use, much less so than in the last book. No big deal; there's lots of armies out there with 3 or 4 units which are less competitive/useful. I imagine most use them will be for reasons of fluff or (cash) price.

Briohmar
13-11-2007, 16:53
And Congrates you are everything high elf players come to expect of someone that doesnt like the change, as they wont be able to walk all over the high elves like in previous editions.

First off, let me say, The HE have never been walked over as far as I know, or maybe I just play with a better class of opponent. In 6th and previous editions HE have always been a good army in the hands of a good player, I never understood the whining that went on, except maybe the Intrigue at court rule. Never understood that one personally, but also never understood why infantry that were so much better than their peers were deemed so worthless.


I believe he was trying to say, what is the point of taking a model with 1 str 5 attack when you can take a model with 2 str 5 attacks.

And I believe he was crying that he couldn't have the equivalent of a chosen knight for half the points cost. What's your point.


Equals????:wtf: Grail knights have a 6+/5+ward save, and the lance formation and Chosen chaos knights, have a better save, toughness and can also have so many variants on them due to all the magic items, marks etc.

Who's whining now? I said that those are the only two types of heavy cavalry that get 2 attacks each, besides DPs. By the way, Chosen knights are also twice the cost of a silverhelm, not to mention the cost of those marks and the exorbitant cost for command (most expensive in the game for a single unit.) I'd say they're paying well for those things. Would you think it more fair if DPs cost 45 points apiece with a 55 point command?



This shows to me you just want to whine now, and also says that you dont know the rules that you are talking about. Dragon Princes NOW have the same charge as Bretonnian's.


WTF??? Wow, DP's are now reduced to a 16" charge range, wow, I suppose someone will cry about that too. What about the rest, or do you just do selective pinging.

My point is the new army book is out. It seems that it gives the HE a better than even fighting chance, which from all of my experiences with them, they already had, and yet someone is crying that one of the best, most underpriced units of the game is now no longer worth taking, not because they got nerfed, or points hiked, but because everything else got so much better.

GranFarfar
13-11-2007, 17:01
Congrats. You are everything we've come to expect from a High Elf player in these many years. It takes an HE player to get the gifts of the gods so heaped upon his new army book that he is willing to whine that Silver helms still only have 1 paltry S5 attack apiece, though costing less than an Empire, Bretonnian, DOW, Dark Elf, or Chaos Knight, and being able to outcharge all of the above and always strike first. Makes me proud to know that I will NEVER play the Cone headed Cross-dressers.

So many equals two types, Grail knights and Chosen Chaos Knights. One is a rare choice, the other is a 1 per army choice. Both cost more than a DP.

Good for you, jumping to conclusions like that. See I don't play HE. I play Lizardmen, before that Bretonnia.

Let's have a look at other knights shall we?
Empire got inner circle, and better save.
Boar boys big uns got 2 str 5 attacks(the boar)
Saurus cav got 2 S 5, 1 s4, and 3 S4 in prolonged.
Grail got 2S6, s4 in prolonged AND lance formation.
Granted Kotr only got 1 S5, but lance formation.
Chosen knight got 2S 5 ALL the time
Black knight got S6...
Cold one knight S4 on the mounts

See my point now?

And as others have pointed out, I never said silver helms are a bad choice, just that comparing to DPs I find no reason to take them.

And for the record, keep showing that nice prejudice of yours, calling HE players whiners. Really keeps the spirit high on Warseer.

SV_Harlequin
13-11-2007, 17:18
The only 3 reasons to rake Helms are:

They are cheaper points wise, not much but it does buy you stuff.
You already have loads of them and don't fancy trying to convert them to DPrinces.
You army fluff doesn't work with having loads of Nobles from Caledor in it.

Treadhead_1st
13-11-2007, 18:13
The reason I took Silverhelms over Dragon Princes?

The points difference allowed me to take a Level 4 Archmage not Level 3. And I am thankful I went in favour of the mage, as the extra level has caused far more havoc than I can imagine the boost of DP over Silverhelms would have. (seriously, when you cast Ring of Fury, The Burning Head, Fiery Blast and Conflagration of Doom in one turn it really cuts through the enemy ranks something proper!).

And no my fluff wouldn't suit DP too, but it was purely down to the power of the Mage that I excluded DPs.

Hesperus
14-11-2007, 11:54
First off, let me say, The HE have never been walked over as far as I know, or maybe I just play with a better class of opponent. In 6th and previous editions HE have always been a good army in the hands of a good player, I never understood the whining that went on, except maybe the Intrigue at court rule. Never understood that one personally, but also never understood why infantry that were so much better than their peers were deemed so worthless.

Well i can only take a guess here, but the h'elf lists that you must of come up against were the all cav/magic list? Yes this was an effective list, but did they ever try to use an infantry list supported by cavlary? I did, and i can say it was one of the hardest lists to use!


And I believe he was crying that he couldn't have the equivalent of a chosen knight for half the points cost. What's your point.

That you only read what you wanted to read, instead of what was actually said.

Re-Read the heading of this Thread, (Can someone give me a good reason to take Silver Helms) and not (im annoyed becuase they havent given us the equivalent of a chosen knight for half the points cost)



Who's whining now? I said that those are the only two types of heavy cavalry that get 2 attacks each, besides DPs. By the way, Chosen knights are also twice the cost of a silverhelm, not to mention the cost of those marks and the exorbitant cost for command (most expensive in the game for a single unit.) I'd say they're paying well for those things. Would you think it more fair if DPs cost 45 points apiece with a 55 point command?

Not me, i was rather content with the 18'' heavy cav charge with 1 Attack thank you very much. I never complained once in my post, it was more showing that the 3 units you picked were not equals, but had many differences.


WTF??? Wow, DP's are now reduced to a 16" charge range, wow, I suppose someone will cry about that too. What about the rest, or do you just do selective pinging.

Yes some people will be missing this, it gave the Dragon Princes a Unique ness. Now they have lost that, and gained extra attacks, which more and more units are getting in Warhammer.



My point is the new army book is out. It seems that it gives the HE a better than even fighting chance, which from all of my experiences with them, they already had,

They only had a fighting chance as a All Cav/Magic list in the previous edtion.


and yet someone is crying that one of the best, most underpriced units of the game is now no longer worth taking, not because they got nerfed, or points hiked, but because everything else got so much better.

Best, most underpriced unit of the game???? :wtf: Now i swear your are having a joke with me. In the previous edtions, they were a good unit to take, cheap effective (ish) core they could fill multiple rolls on the field. Now they have to compete with the likes of Dragons princes - better all around, Swordmaster's - 2 str5 all time, strike first attacks, white lions - 1 str 6 all time, strike first, etc etc, i could go on.

Dont you see the point, they cant fill any specific roll now within the new list. Yes they have there uses, as mentioned in previous posts. But most of the time people wont take them unless they have only enough spare points to take 5 silver helms, and cant make up the extra 35 pionts to turn them into Dragon princes.

night2501
14-11-2007, 12:27
the reson... you will realize the reason once you start doing list, is simple SH cost less and that means more models o nthe table, that alone is a big point in a small army, again I m surprised and pleased to see that GW did a great work with this book balancing things at a whole diferent level than most are used to...