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heretics bane
12-11-2007, 17:44
Hi

I saw a conversion on cool mini or not? website and it was a sisters of battle dreadnought. I was wondering could sisters of battle be placed in side a dreadnought and kept alive like a space marine hero or do they neeed the nessecary implants that a marine has to survive in one and could i use on in my armie?

Thanks in advance

Rabid Bunny 666
12-11-2007, 18:00
I wouldn't have thought so, from a physical and mental point of view.

Physically, they just wear power armour, so they couldn't be "jacked into" the dread as easily, and mentally because they're all about matyring themselves to their cause.

The Guy
12-11-2007, 18:11
Don't see why they would either. Plenty more insane fanatics where she came from :evilgrin:
But with SM it's different. They are rarer.

Eetion
12-11-2007, 18:13
Im going to argue that a penitent engine proves people can be 'jacked in'. But the circumstances involved may be different.
Its certainly not outside the realms of possibility.

Cry of the Wind
12-11-2007, 18:22
I'll have to go with "not in the fluff as written". Dreadnoughts have always been a Space Marine only thing and are rare and hard to come by for them. Giving them out to an organization that has been around for a lot less time seems akin to trying to give them Land Raiders. While the Emperor may not have decreed that Dreadnoughts are SM only as He did for the Land Raider I could see a similar line being drawn. The technology is very very rare not just expensive like Power Armour so I don't think the Ecclesiarchy is going to have the pull to issue them to the Sisters and an Inquisitor wouldn't care probably as it's not really his job (e.g. he won't care about a Grey Knight being injured either, it's up to the Grey Knights to use their own resources to put their broken buddy in a Dread.).

Now that all said and done I don't think there is any reason why they couldn't exist. After all some Dreadnoughts seem to have a brain in a jar as a pilot and the Marine implants don't really matter anymore as a result. It's more of an availability issue rather than a 'can you do it' issue.

Megad00mer
12-11-2007, 18:36
It's not like it could never happen, but I don't see why the Sisters would ever do it.

If a highly respected and skilled Sister was grievously wounded in battle, they would allow her the honor of dying as a martyr. I think the Sisters view being interred into a mechanical life life support system and made to fight on for centuries as a hideous punishment similar to being placed into a Penitent Engine or Arco-Flagellation.

fracas
12-11-2007, 18:59
can't become a saint if you are entombed in a dreadnought

Permanganate
12-11-2007, 19:02
IMO, the Dreadnought's mind-machine interface would need replacement, since the Sister wouldn't have the Black Carapace that allows marines to easily control their armor or Dreadnought, but there are other MMIs in the 40k universe. Also, where would they get a Dreadnought from? No Chapter will give them one and very few are made.

The ideal representation would be a dreadnought with I3, representing the lesser efficiency of the MMI, but everything else would be the same, even WS4 and A2 (the pilot's probably a legendary hero!). I'd let an opponent use that, though I'm not sure what the points cost would be since it might be more or less effective than usual in a Witch Hunters army. The rules-safe representation would be to use the Penitent Engine rules.

mistformsquirrel
12-11-2007, 19:44
It's not like it could never happen, but I don't see why the Sisters would ever do it.

If a highly respected and skilled Sister was grievously wounded in battle, they would allow her the honor of dying as a martyr. I think the Sisters view being interred into a mechanical life life support system and made to fight on for centuries as a hideous punishment similar to being placed into a Penitent Engine or Arco-Flagellation.

Thats kinda how I see it.

I could see it happening under an unusual circumstance - but it'd be a "Special Character" type situation - not only is the individual exceptional in ability, but they were in the right place at the right time with the right people to make it happen.

So it could be done - but its not likely something that would be common enough to include in the Codex because... well its just not that common at all.

That doesn't mean I don't think it'd be a spiffy idea to do up a Penitent Engine as a Sisters of Battle Dreadnought though...

Eetion
12-11-2007, 20:07
Why does it have to be a dreadnought.....The possibility of a exceptional penitent engine is possible. Better weapons, armour, etc.

The_Patriot
12-11-2007, 20:34
Im going to argue that a penitent engine proves people can be 'jacked in'. But the circumstances involved may be different.
Its certainly not outside the realms of possibility.

People aren't jacked into Penitent Engines. They are strapped on and their brains hooked directly up to the engine to control it. The penitent is subject to heavy drug therapy to put them in the right frame of mind (need to die the quickest way possible) with lobotomization like arco-flagallents are.


Why does it have to be a dreadnought.....The possibility of a exceptional penitent engine is possible. Better weapons, armour, etc.

Penitent Engines are designed to kill the driver hence the rules they have. They're not designed to protect the driver at all, since only in death is their forgiveness. Also a Sister who becomes a Repentia is still under their order's control not the Church which all Penitent Engines are controlled by the Church. For a Sister to be strapped onto one is an extreme dishonor.

thearchiver
12-11-2007, 21:51
I cant recall the black carpace being required for a Space marine dreadnought to work. The constant comments about being surgically implanted into the dread hints at the fact its more than just hooking up the marines black carpase.

If that is the case then anyone could be implanted into a dread, however you are going to end up with at least one marine chapter hunting you down for pinching one of their dreads.

Argastes
12-11-2007, 22:37
People aren't jacked into Penitent Engines. They are strapped on and their brains hooked directly up to the engine to control it.

Isn't the bit I put into boldface pretty much what "jacked in" means? It's not via a black carapace, but it's still an interface between the nervous system and the control system of the dreadnought or penitent engine or whatever.

Also, I don't think it's true that Marines are connected to a dreadnought by the Black Carapace. The current codex doesn't elaborate on how they are connected, it merely says that they are, but the 2nd Edition fluff (Ultramarines codex and Dark Millennium book) do state that there is a "direct connection" between the Marine's brain and the dreadnought's control system. They also say that dreadnoughts are "unique" because of this. I don't think they would have gone out of their way to discuss the unique direct neural interface used in dreadnoughts if it was the same as the interface between every normal marine and his power armor. I think that a Marine in a dreadnought is wired up with connections going directly into his brain and spinal cord; they may even actually lay open a nerve trunk or the brain itself.

Also, I don't think that the Black Carapace is capable of relaying all the info that a marine in a dreadnought would need. IIRC, the Black Carapace only picks up efferent nerve signals (i.e., the commands sent by a Marine's brain to his body), so that the armor moves in concert with his body and he can control various features of the armor with a mental impulse (extend and retract the foot-knives, switch his helmet optics to thermal imaging, etc.). It doesn't seem to artificially generate afferent nerve signals in his peripheral nervous system (i.e., feed sensory information back into his brain by creating virtual stimuli), which is what would be needed for a Marine interred in a dreadnought. The neural interface for a dreadnought would have to be much more sophisticated than the neural interface for a suit of power armor, so the Black Carapace couldn't get the job done.

Besides, Marines who get implanted in dreadnoughts are often severely mangled, and if this included damage to the Black Carapace and/or the Marine's spinal cord (which it probably often does, since broken backs and severe chest wounds are probably common causes for implantation into a dreadnought), then he would not be able to interface via the Black Carapace for obvious reasons, which is yet another fact suggesting that his brain is wired directly into the dreadnaught's control system.

The_Patriot
12-11-2007, 23:07
Isn't the bit I put into boldface pretty much what "jacked in" means? It's not via a black carapace, but it's still an interface between the nervous system and the control system of the dreadnought or penitent engine or whatever.

Also, I don't think it's true that Marines are connected to a dreadnought by the Black Carapace. The current codex doesn't elaborate on how they are connected, it merely says that they are, but the 2nd Edition fluff (Ultramarines codex and Dark Millennium book) do state that there is a "direct connection" between the Marine's brain and the dreadnought's control system. They also say that dreadnoughts are "unique" because of this. I don't think they would have gone out of their way to discuss the unique direct neural interface used in dreadnoughts if it was the same as the interface between every normal marine and his power armor. I think that a Marine in a dreadnought is wired up with connections going directly into his brain and spinal cord; they may even actually lay open a nerve trunk or the brain itself.

Also, I don't think that the Black Carapace is capable of relaying all the info that a marine in a dreadnought would need. IIRC, the Black Carapace only picks up efferent nerve signals (i.e., the commands sent by a Marine's brain to his body), so that the armor moves in concert with his body and he can control various features of the armor with a mental impulse (extend and retract the foot-knives, switch his helmet optics to thermal imaging, etc.). It doesn't seem to artificially generate afferent nerve signals in his peripheral nervous system (i.e., feed sensory information back into his brain by creating virtual stimuli), which is what would be needed for a Marine interred in a dreadnought. The neural interface for a dreadnought would have to be much more sophisticated than the neural interface for a suit of power armor, so the Black Carapace couldn't get the job done.

Besides, Marines who get implanted in dreadnoughts are often severely mangled, and if this included damage to the Black Carapace and/or the Marine's spinal cord (which it probably often does, since broken backs and severe chest wounds are probably common causes for implantation into a dreadnought), then he would not be able to interface via the Black Carapace for obvious reasons, which is yet another fact suggesting that his brain is wired directly into the dreadnaught's control system.

From my understanding of how dreadnoughts work that the marine is put into a sarcophagus then put into the dreadnought. The connection with the sarcophagus, I imagine, is through the black carapace. The sarcophagus is connected to the dreadnought, but the marine is never directly hooked up to the dreadnought like a penitent is on a penitent engine.

Khaine's Messenger
12-11-2007, 23:19
If you think of most BL stuff as "canon" to any extent, you will be pleased to know that the surgical and technical know-how to entomb people within dreadnoughts and similar constructs is well within the ways and means of the upper crust. An assassin lord managed to live out the rest of his days in a Space Marine dreadnought...admittedly, it was stolen and probably battle damaged when he recovered it, but eh.

And if it weren't for the notion that Dreadnoughts were "Space Marine, neener neener" vehicles, I would think that life as such a minor Living Saint would be quite an intoxicating goal....

Feor
12-11-2007, 23:42
From a fluff standpoints there's a few problems with SoBs going in a Dread.

1) as mentioned above: availability. Dreads are very rare and hard to produce, and most are produced by the Chapter that's going to be using them (usually taking up most of the lifetime of the Techmarine in charge). The only way a Sororitas would get one would be if it was salvaged on the field of battle. In which case one of two things would happen: either it would be returned to it's owning loyalist chapter (they may not see eye to eye with the Astartes on the Imperial Cult, but they respect them as allys) or burned as heretical detrius.

2) Physical Fortitude: Yes the dreadnought can keep them alove, but they have to survive the initial injury, the shock of the injuries, and then the shock of being transformed into a torso with delusions of grandure.

3) Mental Fortitude: Surviving entombment is only half the battle, not going bat-poop after being locked up in a metal box with guns for a few decades is the second half. Sororitas are fanatics, but they're not space marines. Compared to Astartes they're cowards with the mental fortitude of a child. And not every Space Marine can survive Entombment with their sanity intact, so Sororitas are looking at a 6 foot tall wrap around jacket. :p

Argastes
13-11-2007, 01:44
From my understanding of how dreadnoughts work that the marine is put into a sarcophagus then put into the dreadnought. The connection with the sarcophagus, I imagine, is through the black carapace. The sarcophagus is connected to the dreadnought, but the marine is never directly hooked up to the dreadnought like a penitent is on a penitent engine.

Uhhh.... what I just said is that according to the fluff, they ARE directly hooked up; the fluff says that dreadnoughts are "unique" because they are piloted by a marine whose nervous system is "directly" connected to the machine.

And again, since the Black Carapace apparently only relays efferent nerve signals to the Marine's armor, and does not artificially create afferent nerve signals in the peripheral nervous system, it could not function as a dreadnought's interface anyhow.


From a fluff standpoints there's a few problems with SoBs going in a Dread.

1) as mentioned above: availability. Dreads are very rare and hard to produce, and most are produced by the Chapter that's going to be using them (usually taking up most of the lifetime of the Techmarine in charge). The only way a Sororitas would get one would be if it was salvaged on the field of battle. In which case one of two things would happen: either it would be returned to it's owning loyalist chapter (they may not see eye to eye with the Astartes on the Imperial Cult, but they respect them as allys) or burned as heretical detrius.

Space Marine dreadnoughts may be very rare and hard to produce, and would not be available to anyone but the Chapter that manufactured them, but the SoBs should have no problem making their own dreadnoughts. There's no technology in a dreadnought or dreadnought-type walker that couldn't be produced by the SoBs (or by the AdMech on behalf of the SoBs... I'm not really clear on where SoB vehicles/equipment comes from). I mean, the SoBs can clearly create penitent engines. What is a penitent engine? Well, it's an armed walker, about the size of a dreadnought, which is controlled by someone whose nervous system is permanently wired into the machine's control system. I know that penitent engine have a special purpose, and that they differ from "normal" dreadnoughts in various ways--but there's no reason that a similar vehicle, minus the features that make it a death sentence for the penitent strapped to it, and with the addition of superior armor protection, couldn't serve as the SoB equivalent of a Marine dreadnought.


2) Physical Fortitude: Yes the dreadnought can keep them alove, but they have to survive the initial injury, the shock of the injuries, and then the shock of being transformed into a torso with delusions of grandure.

Well, all this means is that the type of injuries that would justify putting an SoB in a dreadnought would be less severe than the injuries that would justify putting a Marine in one. It wouldn't make it any more difficult, it would just set the threshold lower.


3) Mental Fortitude: Surviving entombment is only half the battle, not going bat-poop after being locked up in a metal box with guns for a few decades is the second half. Sororitas are fanatics, but they're not space marines. Compared to Astartes they're cowards with the mental fortitude of a child. And not every Space Marine can survive Entombment with their sanity intact, so Sororitas are looking at a 6 foot tall wrap around jacket.

Even though Marines are definitely mentally tougher even than SoBs, I think your comparison is hyperbole; but I do agree with the basic argument here. However, the situation is fairly simple: Keep the dreadnought-interred Sister sedated, or in a comatose/unconscious state, when not in battle, and only wake her up when it's time to take to the field. This could be done with drugs, or, since you're already hooking her brain up to all sorts of gizmos and gadgets, by directly controlling her brain's activity.

Now, despite all this, I'm not saying that there's no fluff reason why SoBs shouldn't have dreadnoughts. But if there are fluff reasons, they are definitely going to have to do with the ideals and beliefs and views of the SoBs, not the practical side of things. There is no practical reason that the SoB's can't have dreadnoughts; but there are probably many spiritual and psychological reasons that they don't want to have dreadnoughts.

Hive Mind 33
13-11-2007, 02:59
Would the AD mech and the SoB be on opposite sides? THe AD mech worshipos the ,machine god while the Sob follow the Emperor. How would the Admech trust the SoB to not anger the Machine spirit.

Plus I don't think they would teach them anything like that because of the life span. It takes a Techmarine years before he becomes full fledged. Lets say a Marine and an SoB are 20 and sent to a Forgeworld for training. The Marine comes out at Fifty with hundreds of years to go. While the Sob come out and i would image that Sobs don't live as long as MArines

Cry of the Wind
13-11-2007, 03:12
Now, despite all this, I'm not saying that there's no fluff reason why SoBs shouldn't have dreadnoughts. But if there are fluff reasons, they are definitely going to have to do with the ideals and beliefs and views of the SoBs, not the practical side of things. There is no practical reason that the SoB's can't have dreadnoughts; but there are probably many spiritual and psychological reasons that they don't want to have dreadnoughts.


That makes perfect sense to me, takes into account the Sister's views on the topic (at least what most of us think thier views would be) and addresses the practical side too. They won't have SM Dreadnought things but could have some other thing that has a similar function, just most sisters would rather be martyred than have a half life and those who don't share that view can pilot a penitent engine for as long as they live (which of course won't be long...).

Argastes
13-11-2007, 03:47
Would the AD mech and the SoB be on opposite sides? THe AD mech worshipos the ,machine god while the Sob follow the Emperor. How would the Admech trust the SoB to not anger the Machine spirit.

Plus I don't think they would teach them anything like that because of the life span. It takes a Techmarine years before he becomes full fledged. Lets say a Marine and an SoB are 20 and sent to a Forgeworld for training. The Marine comes out at Fifty with hundreds of years to go. While the Sob come out and i would image that Sobs don't live as long as MArines

Well, those tanks and heavy weapons and boltguns/heavy bolters and penitent engines and suits of power armor are getting manufactured somehow....

chromedog
13-11-2007, 05:02
Back in the RT days, if SoB had been around, they could've had dreads just like the guard and everyone else. Somewhere in the pervasive retconning that GW felt the need for, they (like everyone not a SM) lost the jetbikes, speeders Land Raiders and dreads.

Of course, back in those days, there were options for making your own stuff. You could make an imperial dread that had manual controls, spinal link (Black carapace) or mind-impulse (magic-tech). Eldar could only use mind-impulse or manual (to the eldar, wiring yourself into a machine permanently is so crude) Imperials could use all three (although they barely scraped into the top level), and orks could only use manual or spinal link (since actual mind-impulse tech was beyond them).
Now we know that the Imperium can do 'mind-impulse' links (from fluff - Eisenhorn's body frame), so that's not unfluffy. Why would the SoB USE a heavily armoured walker deathmachine is the question. Penitent engines are a punishment (like CSM dreadhood) and the SM use it as a reward for meritorious service beyond the call (only true heroes get interred).
SoB don't seem to have 'true' heroes, but martyrs. If you could come up with a fluffy reason for them having a 'dread' like walker (involving ties to an AM tech-magos or somesuch), use the VDR to come up with something - with flamers and flails or scourges or something.

It comes down to whether your regular gaming opponents are players, or of the WAAC RAW no-fun party. If the former, they'd let you do it if it meant a fun game. If the latter, get a new group. :D

Emperor's Avenger
13-11-2007, 18:20
A sister of battle could be interred in a dreadnought, it's just that they don't use them. I don't know why, they just don't, in the same way they don't use predators or the astartes don't use leman russes.

Feor
13-11-2007, 21:44
Even though Marines are definitely mentally tougher even than SoBs, I think your comparison is hyperbole; but I do agree with the basic argument here. However, the situation is fairly simple: Keep the dreadnought-interred Sister sedated, or in a comatose/unconscious state, when not in battle, and only wake her up when it's time to take to the field. This could be done with drugs, or, since you're already hooking her brain up to all sorts of gizmos and gadgets, by directly controlling her brain's activity.

We have rules for that, it's called Fire Frenzy... :D

alexon47
14-11-2007, 00:15
i would think that the bat crazy bit is true, therefore furioso dreadnought ally painted in your army scheme.

MrBigMr
14-11-2007, 14:03
But with SM it's different. They are rarer.
Aren't Sister rarer than marines. I remember some figures that stated there being less than a 100 000 sisters, where as you have about a 1000 chapters, more or less 1000 marines each.


This talk reminds me of a one some while ago about non astartes getting a dread. Since the Admech is the one in command of all tech, they could give dreads to who ever they want, not just marines. I don't see why a Sister, who has served well, maybe saved a forge world or something, wouldn't be honored with a dread. There are other ways of jacking one into those things than black carapace. Some implants and all, and they're ready to go.

I was planning a Terran IG regiment and have a sentinel in it modelled as a dreadnought, holding the earthly remains of their first and bravest commander, killed in action during the siege of Terra. The guy is already dead, but the machine still runs on some machine spirit coupled with fragments of his persona inside it.

Basicly the dread is nothing more now than a walking artefact, used to inspire the apes with all the flashy decorations and all.

bertcom1
14-11-2007, 16:02
Possible Faith Reason?

If a Sister is dying, beyond the reach of conventional bionic surgery, only the life support functions of a Dreadnought being able to save her, then the Emperor is ready to accept her soul into His company.

To entomb her in a Dreadnought would be to interfere with the Emperor accepting her soul, so may be blasphemous or heresy.

Argastes
15-11-2007, 01:29
This talk reminds me of a one some while ago about non astartes getting a dread. Since the Admech is the one in command of all tech, they could give dreads to who ever they want, not just marines. I don't see why a Sister, who has served well, maybe saved a forge world or something, wouldn't be honored with a dread. There are other ways of jacking one into those things than black carapace. Some implants and all, and they're ready to go.

Actually, the Admech isn't in command of ALL tech; some other Imperial organizations, the SM chapters included, have their own independent production capabilities and their own independent technical expertise. Space Marine dreadnoughts are manufactured by the Chapter itself, not given to them by the Admech. But, since none of technology used in a SM Dreadnought is exclusive to the Marines, I do agree that there's no technological reason the Sisters couldn't have dreadnoughts of their own (although they would probably be of a different "pattern" than SM dreadnoughts, and thus would look different).

Hellebore
15-11-2007, 02:33
Sororitas are big on martyrdom, so I can't see them liking be kept from dying in the emperor's name by being plugged half dead into a robot.

Certainly, a dreadnought should be REDUCING your faithpoints because the pilot doesn't have the decency to die when they're meant to...:D

Hellebore

MrBigMr
15-11-2007, 05:54
Actually, the Admech isn't in command of ALL tech
Admech provides the means and training for the chapters. If the Admech was to cut a chapter off, they would have a way harder time making all the stuff they do. But what I mean is, that the marines don't have any tech that the Admech hasn't given them in a form or another. So the Admech should have all the stuff the marines have, even if they don't use them as much.

And since the lord commander was given the dreadnought in the aftermath of the Horus Heresy, regulations on tech back then was a bit more loose than it is today.


Sororitas are big on martyrdom, so I can't see them liking be kept from dying in the emperor's name by being plugged half dead into a robot.
But there's not martyrdom in getting shot through the spine and being paralyzed. A dreadnought offers a sister the chance to continue their servitude even after they're put out of commission (but not dead).

Hellebore
15-11-2007, 06:01
But there's not martyrdom in getting shot through the spine and being paralyzed. A dreadnought offers a sister the chance to continue their servitude even after they're put out of commission (but not dead).

Yes but a dreadnought is not given out to just any person, and certainly not paralysed warriors (dreadnoughts aren't electric wheelchairs).

Dreadnoughts are only used for those heros who are on the verge of death where only the life saving machines of a sarcophagus can prevent them dying.

So you have to be A) worthy, and B) completely unrecoverable to be elegible for a dreadnought.

They aren't given out lightly.

Sisters don't have land raiders either - because the Emperor decreed only marines should use them. The same thing could easily have happened for dreadnoughts.

Or perhaps no other faction in the imperium can put a dreadnought to efficient use - only a marine's enhanced body can survive the interface and control the vehicle with any skill.

Perhaps any other human stuck in one would be WS1 BS1 I1 A1...

Hellebore

RexTalon
15-11-2007, 06:37
Aren't Sister rarer than marines. I remember some figures that stated there being less than a 100 000 sisters, where as you have about a 1000 chapters, more or less 1000 marines each.

It's true. The new Apoc book says, "an entire SOB order" accompanied some crusade. It then listed the whole order.

12 SOB squads
6 Retributor squads
4 Dominion squads
3 Celestian squads
1 Repentia squad

That's not a lot of chicks. Then consider there are only like 6 or 8 primary orders and then maybe two or three times that in secondary orders, which are smaller and you amount to less SOB than marines.

MrBigMr
15-11-2007, 09:48
Yes but a dreadnought is not given out to just any person, and certainly not paralysed warriors (dreadnoughts aren't electric wheelchairs).
What I mean is, if someone like Celestine took a hit that would make her unable to battle anymore, but not kill her, putting her into something like a dreadnought would be better than to have a crippled saint in bed.

It's not likely, but far from impossible. This is 40K after all. Nothing is impossible.


Sisters don't have land raiders either - because the Emperor decreed only marines should use them. The same thing could easily have happened for dreadnoughts.
The word of the Emperor is more of a guideline than an actual rule.

One could make a Sister dreadnought and then fluff it as something else. Alternative penitent engine or something similar. The possibilities are limitless. My marine chapter doesn't have dreadnoughts (they also believe in a marthyrous death), so instead of dreadnought, they have large walking tanks (currently working on the model).

Sai-Lauren
15-11-2007, 11:45
Isn't the bit I put into boldface pretty much what "jacked in" means? It's not via a black carapace, but it's still an interface between the nervous system and the control system of the dreadnought or penitent engine or whatever.

Also, I don't think it's true that Marines are connected to a dreadnought by the Black Carapace. The current codex doesn't elaborate on how they are connected, it merely says that they are, but the 2nd Edition fluff (Ultramarines codex and Dark Millennium book) do state that there is a "direct connection" between the Marine's brain and the dreadnought's control system. They also say that dreadnoughts are "unique" because of this. I don't think they would have gone out of their way to discuss the unique direct neural interface used in dreadnoughts if it was the same as the interface between every normal marine and his power armor. I think that a Marine in a dreadnought is wired up with connections going directly into his brain and spinal cord; they may even actually lay open a nerve trunk or the brain itself.

Also, I don't think that the Black Carapace is capable of relaying all the info that a marine in a dreadnought would need. IIRC, the Black Carapace only picks up efferent nerve signals (i.e., the commands sent by a Marine's brain to his body), so that the armor moves in concert with his body and he can control various features of the armor with a mental impulse (extend and retract the foot-knives, switch his helmet optics to thermal imaging, etc.). It doesn't seem to artificially generate afferent nerve signals in his peripheral nervous system (i.e., feed sensory information back into his brain by creating virtual stimuli), which is what would be needed for a Marine interred in a dreadnought. The neural interface for a dreadnought would have to be much more sophisticated than the neural interface for a suit of power armor, so the Black Carapace couldn't get the job done.

Besides, Marines who get implanted in dreadnoughts are often severely mangled, and if this included damage to the Black Carapace and/or the Marine's spinal cord (which it probably often does, since broken backs and severe chest wounds are probably common causes for implantation into a dreadnought), then he would not be able to interface via the Black Carapace for obvious reasons, which is yet another fact suggesting that his brain is wired directly into the dreadnaught's control system.

Exactly, and additionally, the Marines Black Carapace and/or their spinal cord may be too badly damaged to allow them to control a Dreadnought that way, so they would pretty much be jacked into the Dreadnought's controls at the top of their spine/base of their skull and around their skull (plus probably the eyes and ears), with the various life-support/waste removal systems plugged into the marine as and where they can be fitted.

For a Sister, I would say it's possible, but that it has never happened - the fact that they don't have any Dreadnought armour, and would find it virtually impossible to get any, to start with is a major reason ;), seconded by them being unlikely to have the medical skills to do it, closely followed by their Martyrdom complex.

Short of a special character, as others have said, or "counts-as" Penitent Engines, then I'd say no, they don't have them.

The_Patriot
15-11-2007, 16:03
It's true. The new Apoc book says, "an entire SOB order" accompanied some crusade. It then listed the whole order.

12 SOB squads
6 Retributor squads
4 Dominion squads
3 Celestian squads
1 Repentia squad

That's not a lot of chicks. Then consider there are only like 6 or 8 primary orders and then maybe two or three times that in secondary orders, which are smaller and you amount to less SOB than marines.

Which Eye of Terror and Codex: Witch Hunters contradicts. In the Eye of Terror book it lists the exact same order that is in the Apocalypse book as having 6 Preceptories taking part in the campaign. A Preceptory is between 201-1,000 Sisters, so this gives the range of 1,206-6,000 Sisters from the Order of the Bloody Rose taking part in the Eye of Terror campaign.

Add in the listing from Codex: Armageddon it shows that one order supplied 3,000 Sisters, 3 Preceptories, and the other supplied 7,000 Sisters, 7 Preceptories. The writers of Apocalypse were passing along false information in saying that it was an entire order that took part in the campaign for the world. I point out that there isn't a single Seraphim squad listed in the unit listing in the Apocalypse book to further bolster that it is completely inaccurate. An entire order of Sisters without a single Seraphim squad is highly improbable. Let's not forget that there is a distinct lack of Immolators and Exorcists in the list as well.

heretics bane
15-11-2007, 16:52
Aren't Sister rarer than marines. I remember some figures that stated there being less than a 100 000 sisters, where as you have about a 1000 chapters, more or less 1000 marines each.


Nope theres like a monastary keep on most worlds even back water worlds with at least a couple of units of sisters in each one. And they recruict from the orphanges of the imperium which truns out thousand of thousand of orpahns and they dont need to have a certin genitic code etc. that amrines need to become a sister

Argastes
15-11-2007, 20:34
Yeah, with regard to the size of an SoB Order, the Apocalypse book definitely ignores the established fluff so that it can provide a datasheet for what is the most commonly-recognized SoB unit of organization. I guess they figure that people will think it's "cooler" to field a complete Order rather than a complete unit of some smaller, less well-known, type (a sub-Preceptory or something? Who knows). Can't say I really like that, but whatever. At any rate, all other sources confirm that an SoB order is at least several thousand Sisters.

RexTalon
16-11-2007, 07:13
Yeah, with regard to the size of an SoB Order, the Apocalypse book definitely ignores the established fluff so that it can provide a datasheet for what is the most commonly-recognized SoB unit of organization. I guess they figure that people will think it's "cooler" to field a complete Order rather than a complete unit of some smaller, less well-known, type (a sub-Preceptory or something? Who knows). Can't say I really like that, but whatever. At any rate, all other sources confirm that an SoB order is at least several thousand Sisters.

Newest fluff wins.:)

MrBigMr
16-11-2007, 19:49
Newest fluff wins.:)
That is correct.

The_Patriot
17-11-2007, 03:58
That is correct.

That is incorrect. If you truly believed that then there wouldn't be Seraphims, Immolators, Exorcists, or Rhinos in a Sisters of Battle Order due to the lack of inclusion in Apocalypse.

Eisen
17-11-2007, 04:15
That is incorrect. If you truly believed that then there wouldn't be Seraphims, Immolators, Exorcists, or Rhinos in a Sisters of Battle Order due to the lack of inclusion in Apocalypse.

OTOH, there's nothing contradicting them. In the case of two contradicting pieces of data, the more recent is generally the accepted one.

The_Patriot
17-11-2007, 04:22
OTOH, there's nothing contradicting them. In the case of two contradicting pieces of data, the more recent is generally the accepted one.

The more recent data gives a date of 085.M41 which means it's the 85th year of millennia 41. The date given in Eye of Terror is 999.M41 which is the 999th year of millennia 41. Eye of Terror's date is the most recent, so it is the most recent data available and means that the Order of the Bloody Rose is now at least 6 Preceptories strong. Eye of Terror trumps Apocalypse when it comes to the size of the Orders Militant.

Temprus
17-11-2007, 06:09
Now I know what to do with my RT era Dread. ;)

Imperialis_Dominatus
17-11-2007, 06:50
The more recent data gives a date of 085.M41 which means it's the 85th year of millennia 41. The date given in Eye of Terror is 999.M41 which is the 999th year of millennia 41. Eye of Terror's date is the most recent, so it is the most recent data available and means that the Order of the Bloody Rose is now at least 6 Preceptories strong. Eye of Terror trumps Apocalypse when it comes to the size of the Orders Militant.

Hah, good one. I think Apocalypse is wrong, and there's a ********* of Sisters out there.

On Dreads... eh, maybe. I'll have to meditate on it.

RexTalon
17-11-2007, 08:47
Newest fluff refers to the newest printing, not some random Imperial date that happens to be in the sidebar.

My oldest IG dex has an imperial date in it that precedes the newest printed dex therefore all the info in my oldest dex is the most correct? No, the newest printing of fluff is the most current.
The one that came off the printing press last is the most current.
The one that was written the latest is the most current.
How many ways do I have to say it before you understand?
And just because they don't mention every single vehicle doesn't mean they don't exist. It means they aren't the measure of the strength of a force. They're just supporting vehicles. And maybe they didn't have Saraphim in that order when they mobilized, so it can still be correct. Saraphim are rare by any measure. They wouldn't inspire much if you saw one every day.

Eisen
17-11-2007, 13:17
Beat me to it. Damn need for sleep...

The_Patriot
17-11-2007, 15:44
Newest fluff refers to the newest printing, not some random Imperial date that happens to be in the sidebar.

My oldest IG dex has an imperial date in it that precedes the newest printed dex therefore all the info in my oldest dex is the most correct? No, the newest printing of fluff is the most current.
The one that came off the printing press last is the most current.
The one that was written the latest is the most current.
How many ways do I have to say it before you understand?
And just because they don't mention every single vehicle doesn't mean they don't exist. It means they aren't the measure of the strength of a force. They're just supporting vehicles. And maybe they didn't have Saraphim in that order when they mobilized, so it can still be correct. Saraphim are rare by any measure. They wouldn't inspire much if you saw one every day.

Or maybe it's option three which is going off of the date provided for when the information was taken from. In this case there's a huge 914 year difference between Apocalypse's listing and the listing in the Eye of Terror. The current year is 999.M41 not 085.M41 thus Eye of Terror trumps Apocalypse. Also Seraphim are not rare. They are very common in the Sisters of Battle as are the other types.

According to your logic, Sisters of Battle do not have Immolators, Seraphims, Exorcists, and Rhinos based off of the most 'current' fluff. Which is misleading since the date given by said fluff is 914 years in the past which makes it not current by timeline standards.

Eisen
17-11-2007, 16:34
Or maybe it's option three which is going off of the date provided for when the information was taken from. In this case there's a huge 914 year difference between Apocalypse's listing and the listing in the Eye of Terror. The current year is 999.M41 not 085.M41 thus Eye of Terror trumps Apocalypse. Also Seraphim are not rare. They are very common in the Sisters of Battle as are the other types.

According to your logic, Sisters of Battle do not have Immolators, Seraphims, Exorcists, and Rhinos based off of the most 'current' fluff. Which is misleading since the date given by said fluff is 914 years in the past which makes it not current by timeline standards.

By that standard, you would need an in-fluff description of every single piece of equipment ever described for any codex. The fact that Apocalypse doesn't specifically mention them does not mean they aren't there. Apocalypse also doesn't include rules for parking BFG ships on your board, and no codex has ever clarified whether Guard troopers wear underwear, either, or what type. So am I to presume that EVERY Cadian goes commando because it's not spelled out specifically?

Going by the dates included in the publication is an especially dangerous business because you're talking about a universe with only the barest idea of what a timeline is. Going by the date where they were published in our world, on the other hand, can at least be documented.

The_Patriot
17-11-2007, 16:42
By that standard, you would need an in-fluff description of every single piece of equipment ever described for any codex. The fact that Apocalypse doesn't specifically mention them does not mean they aren't there. Apocalypse also doesn't include rules for parking BFG ships on your board, and no codex has ever clarified whether Guard troopers wear underwear, either, or what type. So am I to presume that EVERY Cadian goes commando because it's not spelled out specifically?

Going by the dates included in the publication is an especially dangerous business because you're talking about a universe with only the barest idea of what a timeline is. Going by the date where they were published in our world, on the other hand, can at least be documented.

Which Codex: Sisters of Battle and Friends does give fluff descriptions of those vehicles and how they're accompanied by all Orders Militant. By the way, don't use an invalid comparison in the future since BFG is not 40k. Also don't use a non-sequiter either since underwear is not an important part of their equipment. :rolleyes:

Funny, but the Codexes all seem to disagree with you regarding dates. They all have them published and there is a coherent timeline present. Thus, you go by the timeline dates presented. Is there any information concerning the sizes of the Orders Militant in the current game year of 999.M41? No, so you go by the information presented in Codex: Eye of Terror and Codex: Armageddon on their sizes since there is a 914 year gap between the current year and 085.M41.

For example, Codex: Witch Hunter states that the Sisters of Battle fought at Armageddon and on Cadia which is supported by Codex: Armageddon and Eye of Terror. Which places the Codex at 999.M41. Apocalypse's date is 085.M41 which means it's a historical battle from the context of Codex: Witch Hunters.

Eisen
17-11-2007, 16:49
By the way, don't use an invalid comparison in the future since BFG is not 40k. Also don't use a non-sequiter either since underwear is not an important part of their equipment. :rolleyes:

And Apocalypse is not mainstream 40K, either.

The term is "non sequitur," incidentally, for "does not follow." It is not a non sequitur in this case - it is reductio ad absurdum, the carrying of an argument to its logical extreme. Your argument is that the equipment is not mentioned in the codex. Mine is that, if that is true, any equipment not mentioned must also not exist.


Funny, but the Codexes all seem to disagree with you regarding dates. They all have them published and there is a coherent timeline present. Thus, you go by the timeline dates presented. Is there any information concerning the sizes of the Orders Militant in the current game year of 999.M41? No, so you go by the information presented in Codex: Eye of Terror and Codex: Armageddon on their sizes since there is a 914 year gap between the current year and 085.M41.

And how many dating conventions are there in 40K? Three or four, depending on how easily the information can be verified and whether the recording authority is in touch with a planet that's in touch with a planet that's in touch with... you get the idea. Pardon me if I find such a dating system... flexible.

Mechanicus
17-11-2007, 17:11
Just to add to the debate, GW has said (http://forum.blacklibrary.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8630) newer background isn't necessarily truer - check the post by Marc Gascoigne, Publisher for the Black Library Publishing division of Games Workshop. No one said the Order of the Bloody Rose was full-strength, either... ;)

The_Patriot
17-11-2007, 17:13
And Apocalypse is not mainstream 40K, either.

The term is "non sequitur," incidentally, for "does not follow." It is not a non sequitur in this case - it is reductio ad absurdum, the carrying of an argument to its logical extreme. Your argument is that the equipment is not mentioned in the codex. Mine is that, if that is true, any equipment not mentioned must also not exist.

And how many dating conventions are there in 40K? Three or four, depending on how easily the information can be verified and whether the recording authority is in touch with a planet that's in touch with a planet that's in touch with... you get the idea. Pardon me if I find such a dating system... flexible.

Apocalypse is an expansion of the core rules for 40k while BFG is a completely different rules system that shares nothing, mechanics wise, with 40k. It's a non-sequiter since knowing what an infantryman wears as under garments is not germaine to the discussion. Absence of inclusion based upon the date given by Apocalypse, by your logic, means that Sisters do not have Seraphim, Immolators, Exorcists, and Rhinos. My view is since there are other sources, from a current timeline standpoint, they have them and Apocalypse's data is inaccurate and false. Remember the golden rule of GW's fluff which is all published information (past and present) is canon, but it may or may not be true. Using GW's own standard for what is true and not true we can easily concluded that the information in Apocalypse is not true since it contradicts three other codexes containing the information regarding the size of the orders. Keep in mind this does not include other sources such as Faith and Fire or Daemonifuge.

There is only one dating convention used in 40k. It is divided as follows: First digit is the check sum, second through fourth digits are year fraction (this is dropped when concerning an entire year of time), fifth through seventh digits are the year digits. This is followed by a period then the millenia number. The check digit determines the reliability of the date. Zero is absolute accuracy and Nine is completely inaccurate. Not all sources give a specific year fraction like Apocalypse, Eye of Terror, Armageddon, and Witch Hunters so the year fraction has been dropped from the date given. Some sources, like BL novels/comics give an exact date using the year fraction. Since the dates given in Codexes: Apocalypse, Eye of Terror, and Armageddon all have the 0 check sum the date is accurate for the rest of the string. Thus Apocalpyse's date is completely accurate for year 85 of M41 and the dates given in the other three Codexes is completely accurate for being set in the 999th year of M41.

Eisen
17-11-2007, 17:20
Apocalypse is an expansion of the core rules for 40k while BFG is a completely different rules system that shares nothing, mechanics wise, with 40k. It's a non-sequiter since knowing what an infantryman wears as under garments is not germaine to the discussion. Absence of inclusion based upon the date given by Apocalypse, by your logic, means that Sisters do not have Seraphim, Immolators, Exorcists, and Rhinos. My view is since there are other sources, from a current timeline standpoint, they have them and Apocalypse's data is inaccurate and false. Remember the golden rule of GW's fluff which is all published information (past and present) is canon, but it may or may not be true. Using GW's own standard for what is true and not true we can easily concluded that the information in Apocalypse is not true since it contradicts three other codexes containing the information regarding the size of the orders. Keep in mind this does not include other sources such as Faith and Fire or Daemonifuge.

You have my position backwards. Reread my posts.

The_Patriot
17-11-2007, 17:29
You have my position backwards. Reread my posts.

Your first post was:


OTOH, there's nothing contradicting them. In the case of two contradicting pieces of data, the more recent is generally the accepted one.

Based off of this since the Order listing of the Order of the Bloody Rose in Apocalypse does not have Seraphim, Rhinos, Immolators, and Exorcists since it is the most recent source of information according to you. Thus, your position has always been the one I portrayed in my posts concerning those units. Since the other sources I've referenced show that the Order of the Bloody Rose does in fact use those units. Which is it; Apocalypse is completely accurate (true) or it's completely inaccurate (untrue) based upon the criteria published by GW? That is the crux of the debate. My position is where there is a majority of fluff from the current date of 999.M41 as being completely accurate and Apocalypse is completely inaccurate since it does not go into detail on why those units are missing from the Order of the Bloody Rose's list as well as contradicting the size of an Order given in Codex: Witch Hunters. The year given in Apocalypse doesn't help your position since it's an older accurate date of the information compared to the three sources I've referenced.

bertcom1
17-11-2007, 18:49
What Order does the Apocalypse book name?

If it's the Bloody Rose, then remember that they weren't one of the original orders, only being created relatively recently.

The_Patriot
17-11-2007, 19:41
What Order does the Apocalypse book name?

If it's the Bloody Rose, then remember that they weren't one of the original orders, only being created relatively recently.

Apocalypse states it is the Order of the Bloody Rose and Codex: Witch Hunter states the order was founded in mid M38. Based upon this information the order was in existence for 3,000 years from creation to the battle in Apocalypse. Add in another 914 years for Codex: Eye of Terror one can see that the original statement from Apocalypse about it being the entire order is a false one due to EoT stating that 6 Preceptories fought on Cadia from the Order of the Bloody Rose. The EoT statement does not infer that the order has only 1,206-6,000* Sisters, but that only 1,206-6,000* Sisters from the Order fought on Cadia. Since roughly 3,000 years had passed between formation and Apocalypse's listing the Order must be larger then the one given Apocalypse and have all the units listed in Codex: Witch Hunter. It doesn't help the accuracy of the information in Apocalypse since 914 years later the Order was greater then the 190-390 Sisters stated in Apocalypse. Also this means that the Order is either a single Commandery or a single Preceptory in strength which makes it a lesser order not a major order described in Codex: Witch Hunter. An additional fact to consider is that the Apocalypse information does not list the Canoness Superior leading the Order. Such an exclusion blows another hole the theory that this was the entire Order of the Bloody Rose since the Canoness Superior leads her forces in battle.

*The number is given as a range due to a Commandery being up to 200 Sisters while a Preceptory has up to 1,000 Sisters. The range is for 201-1,000 Sisters per Preceptory.

Mechanicus
17-11-2007, 19:47
So, and I'm sorry if I'm missing something obvious, why couldn't the Order of the Bloody Rose have been understrength in 085.M41? It would still have 914 years to regain it's six preceptories, and would still have been an entire Order at the time.

The_Patriot
17-11-2007, 20:00
So, and I'm sorry if I'm missing something obvious, why couldn't the Order of the Bloody Rose have been understrength in 085.M41? It would still have 914 years to regain it's six preceptories, and would still have been an entire Order at the time.

The lack of a Canoness Superior makes that theory unsound. The Canoness Superior is head of the entire order and leads the order in battle. No Canoness Superior means that the Order would not be a major order, which Codex: Witch Hunter classifies Order of the Bloody Rose as being.

The only sound theory is that the forces used in Apocalypse represent only a fraction of what comprises the order from that year in the timeline.

Mechanicus
17-11-2007, 20:51
The lack of a Canoness Superior makes that theory unsound. The Canoness Superior is head of the entire order and leads the order in battle. No Canoness Superior means that the Order would not be a major order, which Codex: Witch Hunter classifies Order of the Bloody Rose as being.

The only sound theory is that the forces used in Apocalypse represent only a fraction of what comprises the order from that year in the timeline.Surely, the lack of a leader of any kind is a bit of a problem in either case. But, of course, a canoness or palatine can accompany a celestian squad, of which there are three in the battle group, so perhaps it's possible that a canoness (superior or otherwise) is included within that.

The_Patriot
17-11-2007, 21:09
Surely, the lack of a leader of any kind is a bit of a problem in either case. But, of course, a canoness or palatine can accompany a celestian squad, of which there are three in the battle group, so perhaps it's possible that a canoness (superior or otherwise) is included within that.

If that were the case then the Celestian units would have denoted that a Canoness leads them. Keep in mind that Celestians are an elite choice first and only an HQ choice if used as a retinue. There is a distinct lack of HQ choices in the Order's listing in Apocalypse. The listing shows only Troops, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support.

Imperialis_Dominatus
17-11-2007, 21:37
Personally, I think GW's writers had a brainfart (SO unprecedented! :rolleyes:) and listed the Order as too small. Is that beyond the limits of our imaginations? I mean come on. According to some sources, Cadia's population is in the millions rather than the billions, which would make so much more sense...

MrBigMr
17-11-2007, 21:45
Personally, I think GW's writers had a brainfart (SO unprecedented! :rolleyes:) and listed the Order as too small. Is that beyond the limits of our imaginations? I mean come on. According to some sources, Cadia's population is in the millions rather than the billions, which would make so much more sense...
I remember that before the Eye of Terror campaign, the population of Cadia was 850 000 000. After it, it was stated to be 250 000 000. Wonder what happened... As things like that happen quite often around there, I wouldn't be so haste to judge the population figures.

The_Patriot
17-11-2007, 21:50
Personally, I think GW's writers had a brainfart (SO unprecedented! :rolleyes:) and listed the Order as too small. Is that beyond the limits of our imaginations? I mean come on. According to some sources, Cadia's population is in the millions rather than the billions, which would make so much more sense...

With this I do agree.

Mechanicus
18-11-2007, 08:54
Personally, I think GW's writers had a brainfart (SO unprecedented! ) and listed the Order as too small. Is that beyond the limits of our imaginations? I mean come on. According to some sources, Cadia's population is in the millions rather than the billions, which would make so much more sense...I'm already pretty sure it is a mistake on GW's part. I just prefer to explain that mistake in terms of background. :)

If that were the case then the Celestian units would have denoted that a Canoness leads them. Keep in mind that Celestians are an elite choice first and only an HQ choice if used as a retinue. There is a distinct lack of HQ choices in the Order's listing in Apocalypse. The listing shows only Troops, Elites, Fast Attack, and Heavy Support.The other listings don't denote commanders either though - a company isn't said as having a Captain with it, and the 7 reinforced drop platoons don't have a commander listed either - so I can't really see why it's so much of a stretch to believe that they're just under strength.

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-11-2007, 08:59
I remember that before the Eye of Terror campaign, the population of Cadia was 850 000 000. After it, it was stated to be 250 000 000. Wonder what happened... As things like that happen quite often around there, I wouldn't be so haste to judge the population figures.

Actually, that stat was in the Eye of Terror Codex, the book released specifically for the campaign. I think it's meant to project the Imperium's strength before the campaign... and therefore 250 million is too small. Maybe after. Maybe. :eyebrows:


I'm already pretty sure it is a mistake on GW's part. I just prefer to explain that mistake in terms of background. :)

Meh. Why explain it with background when it's obviously stupidity? I don't get you. But whatever. :D

The_Patriot
18-11-2007, 09:31
Actually, that stat was in the Eye of Terror Codex, the book released specifically for the campaign. I think it's meant to project the Imperium's strength before the campaign... and therefore 250 million is too small. Maybe after. Maybe. :eyebrows:

Meh. Why explain it with background when it's obviously stupidity? I don't get you. But whatever. :D

ID wins the thread again. ;)


PS: You have a pm.

Mechanicus
18-11-2007, 09:48
Meh. Why explain it with background when it's obviously stupidity? I don't get you. But whatever. :DBecause just complaining about it gives no brief exercise in creativity? You might well ask why play fluffy armies when powergaming is still an option, or at least, that's how I look at it. It's not a very good analogy, but it'll do. :D It's either that, or just an echo of my perfectionist outlook and a need for everything to 'fit', as such. :p

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-11-2007, 09:57
ID wins the thread again.

Haha thanks. ;)


Because just complaining about it gives no brief exercise in creativity? You might well ask why play fluffy armies when powergaming is still an option, or at least, that's how I look at it. It's not a very good analogy, but it'll do. :D It's either that, or just an echo of my perfectionist outlook and a need for everything to 'fit', as such. :p

One can complain creatively. :p And yeah, that almost beats Barret's "golden shiny wire of hope" analogy (I'm a FF7 addict), but yeah, it don't. I think trying to explain the stat in a background sense is placing waaaaaaaaaaaay too much faith in GW.

Mechanicus
18-11-2007, 10:07
One can complain creatively. And yeah, that almost beats Barret's "golden shiny wire of hope" analogy (I'm a FF7 addict), but yeah, it don't. I think trying to explain the stat in a background sense is placing waaaaaaaaaaaay too much faith in GW.I never said it was good analogy! ;) I was saying that complaining about it is something that feels lazy and just a bit clichéd to me, so I try to explain it instead. And complaining is creatively limited compared to explaining, at least in my book. :D Surely explaining something beyond what GW said is not placing faith in GW? If I placed too much faith in GW, surely I would just accept it and move on instead of trying to explain it beyond what they say? But this is getting off topic, so I'll stop there.

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-11-2007, 10:30
I never said it was good analogy! ;) I was saying that complaining about it is something that feels lazy and just a bit clichéd to me, so I try to explain it instead. And complaining is creatively limited compared to explaining, at least in my book... Surely explaining something beyond what GW said is not placing faith in GW? If I placed too much faith in GW, surely I would just accept it and move on instead of trying to explain it beyond what they say? But this is getting off topic, so I'll stop there.

Well, we agree that it's a bad one. :p

I'll adress this and try to get back on topic later. You see the line between too much faith in GW as 'blind faith.' I see it as the 'existence of faith.' A simple difference of viewpoint then! I am a cynic and you forgive them. ;)

Personally, I feel there are better things to apply my creative energy to than trying to cover the rear of some clumsy GW writer. :angel:

Oh, I had to edit your smileys to get mine in... sorry.

Mechanicus
18-11-2007, 10:32
We'll agree to disagree then. :)

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-11-2007, 10:39
Right then. We shall. The question? Er.. what was it? Oh yeah.

Sisters of battle and dreanoughts Icky spelling.

Hmmm. In very very very very veryspecial cases. Like what someone said. Getting a bullet through the spine and living is not martyrdom, and I'd want to fight more. Especially if I was a cracked-out crazy girly with a semiauto RPG and armor that generally reduces the enemy fire to tickles. I'd say the best rules to represent it would be either an allied Dread or a Penitent Engine. But the Penitent has less armor, so you'd probably need to build it differently. Again, very limited, very special cases. Otherwise there'd already be a unit for it.

Tell that to LatD... :angel:

heretics bane
18-11-2007, 11:32
I was thinking allieing it with the sisters but i wouldnt think many space marine chapters would be up to leanding one of there greatest heros in an device that is so rare out willy nilly. Isnt one of Abaddons chief techmarines a specalist in dreadnoughts? and was responsablie for designing the defiler?

Imperialis_Dominatus
19-11-2007, 13:24
I was thinking allieing it with the sisters but i wouldnt think many space marine chapters would be up to leanding one of there greatest heros in an device that is so rare out willy nilly. Isnt one of Abaddons chief techmarines a specalist in dreadnoughts? and was responsablie for designing the defiler?

What I was saying was that the Sister dread would be best represented by a Dreadnought from the Space Marines list, i.e. an Allied choice counting as a Sister interred in a similar machine. Counts as rules.

I dunno about the Defiler.

heretics bane
20-11-2007, 17:14
What I was saying was that the Sister dread would be best represented by a Dreadnought from the Space Marines list, i.e. an Allied choice counting as a Sister interred in a similar machine. Counts as rules.

Thats actually not a bad idea, gives me something to base my fluff on the dreadnought on, Sister Sircaria shot through the spine while defending a space marine chapters home world(along with the marines) her sacrifice allowed a huge amount of the marines in training and apothercarys to grab all the gene seed they could as they where over whelmed by either orks or chaos. They honoured her by having her paralyised body placed inside the former dreadnought of one of there veterans. It abit of rough until i get the time to rifien if out more

Temprus
21-11-2007, 05:06
Page 70 of Forces of the Imperial Inquisition Collectors' Guide has a SoB dread.