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St1
14-04-2005, 05:49
if a unit containing a battle standard equiped with a magic standard is in close combat and is issued a chalange, can the BSB refuse and still use his reroll break test or the powers of the magic banner he is has.

example.
a unit of swordsmen w/ full command and joined by a BSB armed with the griffon standard, (or the war banner), is in close combat with a unit of ogres and an ogre lord. on the first round of combat the lord chalanges and the unit champion responds and turns into a pile of broken bones on the ground. the swordsmen win combat but the ogres stay. in the next round of close combat the lord calls for another chalange. the only character left in the swordsmen is the BSB. if he excepts and dies can the unit still use the banner that round oc combat, (obvusally not in further rounds)? if he declaines can the unit use the banners abulities?

samael
14-04-2005, 06:09
No and no, banners are calculated after the combat round and so would the effect of said banners and banners that retreat to back ranks loose any special ability that they have (rerols magical properties etc.) unless you're a skaven.

MarcoPollo
14-04-2005, 21:14
I agree with samael here. I would also assume that any type of special ability like magic casting or the undead cursed book would also not be in effect if the hero did not accept the challenge (unless otherwise stated; like skaven of a Slann etc).

But there is a way around this. If your character is fighting normal troops (not touching a nasty character) and is pretty safe, and a challenge is called, you can decline with your champion and your champion goes to the back of the unit and no more challenges can be called that combat. Then at the beginning of your next combat phase, you bring your champion back to the front of the unit (as per the rules) and have him decline again and so on.

Also, for any chaos player. A nice trick with challenges is the slaanesh enchanted item, Bindings of Slaanesh. This allows you to challenge any character in the unit even if they would not normall be in a challenging position. If you mount him on a steed of slaanesh (big base) in a unit and face him off against the most nastiest of fighters in the other unit and challenge his weak champion, then his super nasty fighter will not have anything to attack if you set it up right. This could really swing things in combat your way, if you are charges etc.

if you don't play slaanesh, then be careful of slaanesh heros on big based steeds. Nasty.

samael
16-04-2005, 08:35
But there is a way around this. If your character is fighting normal troops (not touching a nasty character) and is pretty safe, and a challenge is called, you can decline with your champion and your champion goes to the back of the unit and no more challenges can be called that combat. Then at the beginning of your next combat phase, you bring your champion back to the front of the unit (as per the rules) and have him decline again and so on.


No, doesn't work.

The challanger gets to choose which model goes to the back, and hey presto there goes your precious griffon standard and the juicy extra rank bonus. :)

Major Defense
16-04-2005, 20:42
Yes, the challenger gets to choose which model is feeling cowardly. That's why units have champions. If your opponent's uber-lord tries to challenge your battle standard bearer you can accept with the unit champion and while he is getting slaughtered you can hope that the rest of your unit gets the job done.

As a HE player, I am a big fan of all this with my +D6 C.R. Battle Banner and unit champions that can get magic items. ;)

warlord hack'a
18-04-2005, 19:32
well challenges are a nice thing, they are really something to stop and think about. You see, challenges will not win you the combat, like major defense says: you hope the rest of your troops get the job done. In my case, with my black orc 'Uberlord' I would like to fight against other uberlords because i have a high Armor save, this armor save will protect me well in a challenge and absorp all the nasty attacks of the other uberlord. If i do not challenge the enemy uberlord then he will start killing rank and file orcs and nobody will try to hit me (there goes 70 points worth of magic items). Even if this menas that a lowly champion would accept and I am finding myself overkilling, this will probably still be better.

But in the high elf unit mentioned, I would not challenge as the key to victory is the BsB so I will sacrifice my armor save and direct my attacks at him. So my uberlord does not standard challenge and when I do my main purpose is not to kill then enemy challenger but to keep that challenger from killing rank and file.. For your information: my lord versus a dwarf lord with a bit of protection: after three rounds of average combat we are both dead. How many combats last 3 rounds without other units joining in etc.? And this is the best lords I have seen so far in our playgroup, the other lords also take three rounds to take out. Of course this is the statistical average which has nothing to do with what really happens but it gives you an idea..

Major Defense
18-04-2005, 20:25
But in the high elf unit mentioned, I would not challenge as the key to victory is the BsB so I will sacrifice my armor save and direct my attacks at him. So my uberlord does not standard challenge and when I do my main purpose is not to kill then enemy challenger but to keep that challenger from killing rank and file.

I don't think it would be as easy as you infer. First, your uber-lord would have to happen to be in base-to-base contact with my BSB in the first round. Then there is the probability that my unit champion will tie up your unit champion in a challenge. Being fruity-fast HE, I will be more likely to get the charge with that unit (and I'd be sure to ensure it with BSB in there) so only if your unit champion survives the first round of challenge will your character not be tied up in the second round. By the third round the fight would have already been over.

I guess I should also note that the only time I've ever taken the Battle Banner in an infantry unit was when I put an uber-prince in the same unit to ensure his survival. BSB is really more fun on a chariot.

warlord hack'a
18-04-2005, 22:12
Dear Major defense,

I was not insinuating that my unit will kill yours as I know nothing of your unit nor the qualities of your battle standard bearer or unit champion. I was just making a point that is it not always good to issue challenges and sometimes it is very good not to even if you can kill the enemy chap.

Still I miss what you are trying to say: you charge me (okay, granted), then you challenge with your unit champion and my unit boss accepts. What then stops my general from attacking your Bsb unless we are not in base to base? I am not saying that I will kill him in round 1 (though the chance is not small) I am just saying that if I were to issue a challenge I would be buggered because you will accept with you unit champ and you bsb can not be attacked by my general..

Major Defense
18-04-2005, 22:20
I was just making the point that one would be a fool to leave their BSB open to heavy attacks...and I am not "one", as it were. I apologize if my fleshing out the thought appeared to be some sort of argument.