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View Full Version : Do packmasters keep "fear" after rat ogres are dead?



Stingray_tm
13-11-2007, 09:08
Let's assume a unit of rat ogres looses all ogres, but the packmasters are still alive. Does the unit still cause fear?

Griefbringer
13-11-2007, 09:49
According to the skaven army book (pages 22-23) only the rat ogre models cause fear, not the packmaster models.

So if the unit does not anymore contain any rat ogres, then I would say it does not cause fear.

UberBeast
13-11-2007, 13:43
That sounds right to me. So then do the pack masters count toward the unit strength for outnumbering when determining auto-break and fear?

RogueGeneralHunter
13-11-2007, 17:30
Yes. I think it does.

the rule book uses the term "Fear causing enemy units" not Fear causing enemy models.
To me this says count the entire unit.

Belerophon709
13-11-2007, 17:47
Yes. I think it does.

the rule book uses the term "Fear causing enemy units" not Fear causing enemy models.
To me this says count the entire unit.

You have to count the unit strength of the actual fear-causers though. Otherwise, you could stick a Nurgle Character in a unit of say 30 marauders and have them auto-break everything.

So if you have 3 rat ogres (US3) and 3 packmasters (US1), the fear-causers would have a US of 9 (3xUS3) for purposes of calculating whether or not insane courage is needed.

Stingray_tm
13-11-2007, 18:28
My question originates from this:

The army book says, that packmasters have a morale boost by their ogres, thus counting as fear causing themselves.

RAW i think they keep "fear". I am not sure how my opinion is RAI- und fluff-wise...

SevenSins
13-11-2007, 18:46
the morale boost mentioned is the standard rule for units containing normal models and fear causers, the rat ogres cause fear thus boosting the packmasters bravery, and making them immune to fear (same reason you stuff a boss with mark of nurgle with your marauders, making them immune to fear)

RogueGeneralHunter
13-11-2007, 19:07
The character section of the main rulebook specifically states that fear/terror causing Characters share their immunities with the unit as long as he is with them (page 78). So the unit does not cause fear just the character, so only the Unit Strength of the character is counted for auto break. The unit gets immunity to Terror and/or fear per page 51.

The case presented here is different. The rat ogres and pack masters are a unit. No characters are present. They would fall into the category of “Fear causing enemy units" so the entire unit is counted.

As to the original question…? I don't have the book in front of me right now but if it says the rat ogres lend fear to the pack masters and it is not specified that it goes away when R. Ogres die then they keep it. (RAW can be a little silly at times)

Griefbringer
13-11-2007, 20:03
The army book says, that packmasters have a morale boost by their ogres, thus counting as fear causing themselves.


According to my reading of my copy of the Skaven army book earlier today, the rat ogres only make the packmasters immune to fear, but do not make them to cause fear. Cannot check again at the moment (not at home).

Stingray_tm
13-11-2007, 20:19
I think Griefbringer is right. Yes, that's it!

But now there is another question: Are they immune to fear, when they lose their ogres? :D

Griefbringer
13-11-2007, 21:38
But now there is another question: Are they immune to fear, when they lose their ogres? :D

Most likely not, since the packmasters themselves do not have any "immune to fear" special rule. And having a bunch of dead rat ogres lying around is not exactly encouraging one into heroic feats.

Griefbringer
14-11-2007, 15:14
Checked the book (page 23, Rat Ogres): "Packmasters in a Rat Ogres pack are immune to fear".

Presumably, if there are no Rat Ogres remaining, the unit no longer counts as a Rat Ogre pack. True RAW-heads could try to use the definition on page 47 ("a pack consists of one Rat Ogre and one Packmaster") in some strange ways to counter this reasoning.

In any case, packmasters on their own are in a pretty tight situation, regardless of whether they are immune to fear or not.

Flypaper
15-11-2007, 03:17
Presumably, if there are no Rat Ogres remaining, the unit no longer counts as a Rat Ogre pack. True RAW-heads could try to use the definition on page 47 ("a pack consists of one Rat Ogre and one Packmaster") in some strange ways to counter this reasoning.
Well, I can't think of any real precedent for 'renaming' a unit like that if some models are killed off... Characters losing mounts? Warmachines with fleeing crew? They feel different, somehow. :o

eldrak
15-11-2007, 10:32
Just because the rat ogres are all dead doesn't stop the remaining packmasters from being still being a Rat Ogre pack. It's the same as squig herds :p

ZeroTwentythree
15-11-2007, 15:57
...and according to that definition, 2 packmasters with 2 rat ogres are not a "pack."