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View Full Version : Why take High Elf Archers? Points Dilema



Neopepsi55
13-11-2007, 20:46
After thorough number crunching and much deliberation I have come to the conclusion that there is no point to ever taking High Elf Archers over taking Lotheren Sea Guard.
Since the removal of the Sea Guard's 0-1 status and their points adjustment why NOT?
Here's how I see it:
Sea Guard: 12 pts (Bow, Lt. Armor, Spear, Hand Weapon) Opt. +1pt Shield
Archers: 11 pts. (Bow, Hand Weapon) Opt. +1pt. lt.armor

They both have the same stat lines, BUT sea guard also can fight in three ranks. Am I missing something? I'm thinking the sea guard act as a base of fire on a hill firing in two ranks 15-18 guys strong and when the enemy is closer (i.e 2-3 turn) Reform and lose 5-6 shots and now be a formidable opponent against chargers.

Questions? Comments? Additional Ideas.

TheSanityAssassin
13-11-2007, 22:03
The Archers have Longbows. I know it isn't much, but the extra 6' range lets them out-range alot of nasty gunpowder units.

Red_Lep
13-11-2007, 22:10
As above the added range.

Also, three ranks is only good if your planning on using them to fight aswell as shoot. Some people don't.

static grass
13-11-2007, 22:22
From just reading the book I came to the same conclusion. IMO they are even better with the shield. Atleast they wont almost instantly die in CC. You could just treat them like a moderate CC unit with moderate shooting ability too.

In defense of the Archers they are more specialized shooters and the HE are already pretty short on bodies before you add in your expensive jack of trades sea guard. So if you have alrady loaded up on Swordmasters and White Lions then archers look better because you don't need the additional CC but the extra shooting from "cheap" elves that fill your core slot will do nicely.

Dead Man Walking
13-11-2007, 22:53
You field them for longbows, if you only have so many points and if your army is themed and that theme doesnt include loth seaguard. For example an all Chrace white lions army would have archers, not lotheran sea guard. If I saw someone show up with 4 units of white lions I would complain unless it was obvious they were themed to be bumper to bumper white lions themed army.

Bumper to bumper means you dont add the 18" move magic talisman of the Panther god to your "Themed" Tepok lizardman army, only magic items that belong to Tepok.

Neopepsi55
13-11-2007, 23:36
Points wise:
-15 archers with light armor is 180 pts. They have an effective 30 inch range and a 6+ save.

-15 Sea Guard with Shields is 195 pts. They have an effective 24 inch range and a 5+ vs. shooting, with a possible 4+ if you only use one rank in close combat.

The Sea guard may not be optimized for hand to hand, BUT they can stand and shoot same as the archers and then receive the charge fighting in three ranks striking first. The range is easily fixed after the first turn of the game. Either you went first and moved them 5 inches, i'll admit making the shot an additional -1 for moving that first turn, they still are able to fire at the enemy (most armies setup up at 24 inches to start). OR the enemy goes first and moves into your range, allowing you to stay on a hill and fire in two ranks.

P.S I love that someone posted a fluff argument. Dead Man Walking I give you props for thinking of the game and not the win :) Far more players need to think what makes sense not what wins.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
14-11-2007, 00:26
All i have to say is that taking out a couple crossbowmen or gunners when i have units at 15pts per model makes a world of difference. Especially when combined with a bolt thrower. They can also win u table corner(s). I wouldnt advise taking more than maybe ten or twelve depending on your opponent. Pesky thingslike fanatics are also targets that need to be destroyed! (from a distance) Lure them out with phoenix guard(4+ ws) and then fill them witharrows.

CHOOBER SNIPES
14-11-2007, 00:57
i agree on the fluff, and on the reasoning behind LSG being better in most situations, but the point of the longbow is not to get into range faster, but to keep out of any substantial fire while retaining the ability to shoot at the enemy. for example, your longbow toting archers safely fire their arrows at some empire handgunners who are out of range for their guns, but ur LSG hav to move into range of the enemy to fire.

Alathir
14-11-2007, 10:37
Well on the weekend my archers were attacked in the rear by 5 skaven tunnellers... the archers killed all but one before they could attack. Brilliant stuff.

I dont mind paying their price.

Dead Man Walking
14-11-2007, 10:45
You can also use them as throw away units as most people are going to field more loth sea guard than archers to take advantage of spears in 3 ranks. I always field a cheaper throw away unit to throw charges off in one direction or to force out fanatics safely.

2thesword
14-11-2007, 10:54
i agree on the fluff, and on the reasoning behind LSG being better in most situations, but the point of the longbow is not to get into range faster, but to keep out of any substantial fire while retaining the ability to shoot at the enemy. for example, your longbow toting archers safely fire their arrows at some empire handgunners who are out of range for their guns, but ur LSG hav to move into range of the enemy to fire.

AMEN - I've found that under the new book archers are almost mandatory against some armies... I've found them very valuable for taking our empire handgunners and more importantly hellblaster volley guns.

Unit of 12-15 archers in a block,where all in the unit draw line of sight to a hill chock full of artillery and other nastiness that shreds HE infantry.

last game I played said unit of archers took out a volleygun in first turn, took out the 2nd volleygun on turn 3... golden (still lost though, but was very close)

Kaleb79
14-11-2007, 11:44
only reason I take Archers is to fill out the core slot as cheaply as possible. If I'm buying a unit of 10 I may as well take Archers as 10 seaguard aren't going to be much better

what I really want to try is a big block of Seaguard marching forward against enemy ranged units on hills. can't wait to announce 20 shots from my 5x4 block of spear armed elves!

likewise I can shoot at large targets. so when any T5 monsters come charging at me I can stand and shoot with all my 20 bows before facing them in combat.

Tutore
14-11-2007, 12:36
If you think archers are important to your army, then take seaguards. I won't take neither.

Shakkara
14-11-2007, 13:26
likewise I can shoot at large targets. so when any T5 monsters come charging at me I can stand and shoot with all my 20 bows before facing them in combat.

Hehe, I remember my first game though, was years ago, undead lord on dragon charges 14 seaguard...

Seaguard stand&shoot lord off his dragon, and undead army crumbles due to loss of general :evilgrin:

DeathlessDraich
14-11-2007, 14:04
Just one point that hasn't been mentioned.

A block of 20 Seaguard will probably slay a Giant in 2 rounds of *shooting* whereas 10 Archers will take 4 rounds.

For the same reason, Seaguard are more effective [when shooting] against enemy warmachines or archers on a hill.

Kaleb79
14-11-2007, 14:06
hmm, but by the same logic 20 archers would take 2 rounds too :confused:

don't really get the point there...

Fraggzy
14-11-2007, 15:10
archers are the best if you face a empire army, or anny gunnpowder using army in general, because of their long range they can stand hust out of the handgunners range and theby force them to move while seaguards would have to stay inrange of the hangunners and be slaughtered, they would not get theire 5+ armour save eather!!

Kloud13
14-11-2007, 15:14
The reason you take Archers, is because they are effective at a cheaper cost.

What I mean is,

The Minimum size of a unit of Archers, is 10.
10 Archers are an effective unit on the battlefield.
Should the elves have first turn, The archers can usually start pegging targets without having to move, thanks to 30" range.
There is very little reason to invest in a command for your archers.
10 Archers will cost you 110pts.

Spearmen, are cheap, but in order to have an Effective unit of spearmen, you need at least 15 of them.
You are almost crazy not to put a command into a unit of spearmen, as they WILL be seeing combat, and could use the bonus.
15 Spearmen, will cost you 135pts, plus command.

Seaguard are alot like spearmen, and there should be at least 15 of them.
If the elf player gets first turn, the Seaguard will have to move to get a shot with their bows.
Seaguard should also have a full command.
15 seaguard will cost 180 pts, plus command.

So, once the seaguard have a full command, and are 15 strong, they are almost twice as many points as a unit of 10 archers. So, for the cost of a Seaguard unit, I'll field two units of Archers, and then I will have my Core Choices, And then I'll be using my points for all those tasty specials.

Fraggzy makes a fantastic point as well, there is something to be said about being able to hurt your opponent, and he can't touch you.

FurryMiguell
14-11-2007, 15:17
I agree with fraggzy at that point, but against most oponents SeaGuard would do much better, I can imagine... it's important to remember that all HE units are expensive compared to other armies units, and so its good to have a unit apable of doing more than one task effectively:D

Kaleb79
14-11-2007, 16:05
if I am wanting an effective, versatile unit I think I will go for Seaguard like Miguell says.

but if I'm wanting to save points and just make my core choice I will go for archers or spears like kloud suggest

i would also say that ASF and the effect it has on the whole movement phase makes the seaguard more effective.

I don't need to be as bothered about charging the enemy and can do more to just make sure I have a good battle line and avoid being flanked. therefore for many armies - especially horde armies - I'm probably going to want to get into a good controlling position and wait for my enemy to come to me. Seaguard can be really useful for this as whilst I am waiting for the enemy I can shoot at them but then be ready to take them on when they come within charge range (and hopefully also get stand and shoot)

Chiungalla
14-11-2007, 18:34
I take archers all the time, and spend no single thought on sea guards, because...

- ... archers are the better shooters.

They can shoot in the first turn without the -1 from movement, and they can shoot earlier without the -1 from long distance.

- ... archers are cheaper.

- ... archers are the cheapest way to fill my cores.

- ... archers are necessary to take out enemy shooting as fast as I can.

- ... sea guards need to be 15 to take advantage of there skills.

- ... sea guards need to move in turn 1 to shoot, and need to reform between shooting and close combat to be effectiv.

- ... if my swordmasters, dragon princes .... and white lions could not protect my shooters from close combat, then there will be no great difference if they are archers or sea guards.

Elhier
14-11-2007, 19:08
sea gaurd are great as a second core in 2000 point battles. have archers and sea guard, plonk the archers on a hill with the unit of sea guard just below the hill 2 deep so as to have as much frontage as possible. this works well if the rest of your force is very mobile and is off else where killing stuff and not able to give help to the archers, this means that the seaguard will rarely Be killed in the first round of combat and so your other units can come and help, also sea guard can shoot which means you can shoot a potential charger and then shoot agian with stand and shoot, meaning lots of hits.

for war macine hunting i always a group of shadow warriors some times with a noble with shadow armour and foe bane, this unit is good at clearing war machine crews and then taking on lurking characters, a unit without a noble is also a good distraction that can draw a lot of fire.

FurryMiguell
14-11-2007, 21:08
against a missile army, like the empire, go for archers. being out of range is a great advantage. I would also use shadow warriors to protect/roll up flanks. Seaguard are good for protective tactics against an oponent which rely on CC...

Go for the egghead seaguard! hail Malekith!!!

Cheers:D

Neknoh
14-11-2007, 21:17
Another thing I think people are forgetting is that Archers will not have a -1 penealty for their Stand and Shoot against most units due to those units being at Long-range, 15" for half range means that Fast Cavalry (often with a charge of 16") will have to be a lot more careful in the guessing of the distance in between them and the opponent, whereas they have 4 inches on the Lothern Seaguard.

Of course, the Seaguard could probably just reform (costing them one turn of effective shooting) in the HE player's turn if the HE player sees the charge acomming, but, as said, it'll cost them a turn of shooting, something you might not want to loose.

Elhier
15-11-2007, 18:48
having put a good amount of thought to this i have come to the conclution that really it is down to your style of play and wether you can see them having a part in the back ground of your army. you can argue 4 ever about wether archers or SG R better but really it is down to how you play, i know players who sware by sea guard and others who think they are a waste of time but both do just as well in the long run.

my advice is this: play a few games with sea guard or archers and then decide which suits your style best, simple as that... (well maybe)

FurryMiguell
15-11-2007, 20:44
I agree with Elhier. Its up to your playingstyle to decide...
But I still think SG are the better choise:)

Cheers:D

Elhier
16-11-2007, 14:32
finaly some one who understands what im on about.

FurryMiguell
16-11-2007, 19:02
Yeah.. youre a very wise person(man of woman...)

Cheers:D

Nurgling Chieftain
17-11-2007, 05:13
Yeah, a quick read of the codex and I decided the Sea Guard were definitely my favorite core. To get their capabilities you basically need their number in both spearmen and archers, so it's like saving 7 points per guy. ;) Yeah, yeah, I know there are reasons to specialize and more bodies are good in an already small army, but really, you get such value from the Sea Guard that I would seriously consider using them as the actual core of the army (as opposed to all these people who talk about taking minimum squads of archers to fulfull minimum core requirements).

15 sea guard, full command, and shields is 220. They can shoot a couple of turns, and with turns and adding or subtracting files they can become 5x3 forward or to either side and still fire that turn. Then, when they take a charge they can potentially stand and shoot and then get 15 attacks all before the enemy strikes. That's a lot of S3 love...

Kloud13
17-11-2007, 20:51
Another advantage of the seaguard is if you can park them on a hill, and leave them in 5X3, They can shoot in 2 ranks, and if they are charged, Stand and shoot (in 2 ranks), then 16 attacks (Champion) which means, 26 Strength 3 attacks before the charger does anything, AND, being on higher ground counts as an additional +1 to combat Resolution.

CHOOBER SNIPES
17-11-2007, 22:09
just the other day i had 5 shadow warriors kill 3 CoK, and a couple days before that, a unit of 10 archers beat off 8 dryads, killing 3. it was just funny. sry bout this being a kinda pointless post.

Elhier
18-11-2007, 14:17
i really like shadow warriors: skirmish and scouts, long bows and hatred. yum

Corrupt
18-11-2007, 14:23
only reason I take Archers is to fill out the core slot as cheaply as possible. If I'm buying a unit of 10 I may as well take Archers as 10 seaguard aren't going to be much better

what I really want to try is a big block of Seaguard marching forward against enemy ranged units on hills. can't wait to announce 20 shots from my 5x4 block of spear armed elves!

likewise I can shoot at large targets. so when any T5 monsters come charging at me I can stand and shoot with all my 20 bows before facing them in combat.

Jeez
If you want as cheap as possible core 10x Spear Elves, no command-90pts
Use them as detatchments for your harder infantry
Id do this myself If i didnt have some SE fetish and run 3x20 SE+1x10 Archers

Dooppie
18-11-2007, 15:34
Jeez
If you want as cheap as possible core 10x Spear Elves, no command-90pts
Use them as detatchments for your harder infantry
Id do this myself If i didnt have some SE fetish and run 3x20 SE+1x10 Archers

Sea guard are only 3 points a model more as normal spearmen?
That is cheap :D
I can remember that Sea guards are 16 points a model in the last edition.
Sea guard can shoot and fight.
If you are planning too move a lot then spearmen are better.

Archers with the I hit ya first in combat rule sounds like a great unit.
So not bad options.

redbaron998
18-11-2007, 21:04
A couple of things:

1. Seaguard are not 3 points more than Spearmen, they are 4. YOU NEED to buy the shields

2. Seaguard and Archers are not really comparable, though they are similarly equipped they preform completely different functions

Archers: Missile Support

Seaguard: Defensive Support

Archers are used better when you have offensive lists where thier range can be used right

Seaguard are on the other hand totally different. They should be used in a situation where lets say you have a primarly offensive list, but want a couple of RBT to give you ranged support. Well now you need to protect these RBT, but Archers are to weak in HtH and Spearmen would just sit back and might not contribute at all.

Well instead put a unit of Seaguard in a large formation on a hill in between the 2 (or 4) RBTs, in eithier one large formation or two smaller. You want at least 6x3. Now you have a unit that can defend enough vs minor damage threats (flyers and Fast Calvary) to protect your RBTs, and can shoot some if the enemy moves in.

Seaguard are great, they just have a different use than Archers...whitch Is till beleive should have got shoot in 2 ranks or cheaper by a point