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Fate
14-11-2007, 02:43
The question is, can a Sword of Fate be used against a Steam Tank?

On one side it states that it's only against characters or monsters, on another side there is no monster trait, only some rules that alow you to sau wheter something is or not a monster.
The steam tank is a warmachine by all accounts but it still follows every single rule for the monsters thus i belive it applies as one.
Fluff wise the sword of fate is also an item made to be the undoing of something or someone thus it would also fit fluff wise.
Since there is no thing that has a monster trait (my dragon, griffon or pegasus don't have any monstruous mount rule or anything alike) it would be logical to assume that the Steam Tank is both a warmachine since it says so and a monster since it follows all the rules that applies to monsters.

Well i'd like to hear your oppinions now.

Brother Barak
14-11-2007, 07:03
The steam tank is a warmachine by all accounts but it still follows every single rule for the monsters thus i belive it applies as one.


Does it? I seem to remember things like unridden monster reaction tables and such like that the steamtank doesn't adhere too. And I can't think of a single circumstance where a war machine is considered a monster, not even the hellcannon is.



Fluff wise the sword of fate is also an item made to be the undoing of something or someone thus it would also fit Fluff wise.


Fluff wise the Sword of Fate is also an heirloom of the Empire, and I find it difficult to believe that they would make a weapon specifically designed to undo their greatest war machine.

I dunno, your argument seems kind of, well, sketchy. But your point is valid. I know if I had that sword and was facing a steam tank I would want to wail on it.

Gorbad Ironclaw
14-11-2007, 07:49
The Steamtank is a Warmachine, and follows those rules. A good example is that it only give VPs away if it's completly killed. You get nothing for taking it under half wounds, ulike say a monster or a character.

Fate
14-11-2007, 11:43
Does it? I seem to remember things like unridden monster reaction tables and such like that the steamtank doesn't adhere too. And I can't think of a single circumstance where a war machine is considered a monster, not even the hellcannon is.

Yes, it's true it doesn't test on the monster reaction table, but the again you don't have a rider to kill or someone behind it pushing it into battle and there are other creatures that do not test, one simple example of it is the Shaggot or the giant, they are still monsters but they don't test.
Also a hellcannon is diferent, it has a crew and it's restriced by it (until they die) so it's a deamonic warmachine.
The thing is, for monsters there is no tag that defines them, so as long as they fit the rules, they are monster. By the way, trolls are not monsters (stupid but true) since they form units, they can't be monsters.


Fluff wise the Sword of Fate is also an heirloom of the Empire, and I find it difficult to believe that they would make a weapon specifically designed to undo their greatest war machine.

Actually it says on the description it's a sword forged to be the undoing of a specific foe, although your argument does have a point.

[QOUTE] The Steamtank is a Warmachine, and follows those rules. A good example is that it only give VPs away if it's completly killed. You get nothing for taking it under half wounds, ulike say a monster or a character.[/QUOTE]

Actually no since a Steam tank it's a model that fights on it's own it does score points for being at half strenght.

DeathlessDraich
14-11-2007, 13:15
Hello and welcome Fate.
The subject of your first thread seems very apt to your username.:p


Yes, it's true it doesn't test on the monster reaction table, but the again you don't have a rider to kill or someone behind it pushing it into battle and there are other creatures that do not test, one simple example of it is the Shaggot or the giant, they are still monsters but they don't test. .

You seem to be mixing up quite a few rules here.

1) Monsters do not test for Monster reaction unles they are Monstrous Mounts or Monsters with handlers.

2) True, Monsters are not defined and their description is certainly lacking in the rulebook.

3) The steam tank is not a monster. It is a warmachine that moves like a chariot as stated by its rules.



Actually no since a Steam tank it's a model that fights on it's own it does score points for being at half strenght.

The Steam Tank's VP is allocated in the same way as other warmachines -pg 102. It must be completely destroyed to award VPs.

gortexgunnerson
14-11-2007, 17:26
The steam tank is blantantly a chariot if anything lol as it moves like one and does impact hits. However the rules state it is a warmachine just to make it even harder to kill or score VPs from. I cant see anything that would lead to the assumption that it is a monster hence no sword of fate bonus!

Just remember when dealing with steam tanks if its a strange rule it will only be for the benefit of the Steam tank as the creators wanted a killing machine lol or does that just sound bitter lol

Fate
15-11-2007, 00:25
The rules state that a monster always fight individually, they can never join other models to form a unit except if they are riden by a character. Each monster has has the usual arcs to determine line of sight and units gain points for latteral and rear charges. The manoeuvers is just like a monster, it pivots on the spot like all monsters.

It's true it says that it moves like a chariot but of course it's not a chariot that is a warmachine just to be harder to kill, there is alsso other things that can make impact hits when charging like the stegadon.

So my assumption is that since it follows the same movement rules, has now an arc for LOS and can't be joined by other models to form a unit, it qualifies as a monster.

Since the rules are lacking for a tag, i assume everything that would follow those rules must be considered a monster... Until an errata comes out at least.

Jonke
15-11-2007, 02:23
The rules state that a monster always fight individually, they can never join other models to form a unit except if they are riden by a character. Each monster has has the usual arcs to determine line of sight and units gain points for latteral and rear charges. The manoeuvers is just like a monster, it pivots on the spot like all monsters.

It's true it says that it moves like a chariot but of course it's not a chariot that is a warmachine just to be harder to kill, there is alsso other things that can make impact hits when charging like the stegadon.

So my assumption is that since it follows the same movement rules, has now an arc for LOS and can't be joined by other models to form a unit, it qualifies as a monster.

Since the rules are lacking for a tag, i assume everything that would follow those rules must be considered a monster... Until an errata comes out at least.

You know, everything you have mentioned is true for chariots as well.

Rodman49
15-11-2007, 07:32
The Steamtank is a Warmachine, and follows those rules. A good example is that it only give VPs away if it's completly killed. You get nothing for taking it under half wounds, ulike say a monster or a character.

Incorrect, in response to this question: "Q: Does taking a Steam Tank down to half wounds net you half VP's for that model, or do you have to kill it outright to gain any VP's whatsoever? Is it a warmachine or a unit?"

Gav says:


Warhammer, P102: Models that fight on their own and not in units are worth half their points value in VPs if reduced to half their starting number of wounds or less. That is crystal clear. Sorry, that was a bit of a waste of a question.

Source: http://www.bugmansbrewery.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18488&mode=threaded

DeathlessDraich
15-11-2007, 08:03
If that was what Gav said then the question is wasted on him as he has forgotten the rules for VP allocated to warmachines. - the rule quoted (models fighting on their own) referred to "chariots, monsters and characters".

Until stated in an official capacity, any comment made by GW/rules writers is worthless considering the number of off the cuff erroneous comments they have made in the past.

Atrahasis
15-11-2007, 09:52
He also said that hits from templates are randomised between monsters and riders, despite the rules expressly saying that templates can hit both.

I think he was having an Anthony Reynolds day that day.

ZomboCom
15-11-2007, 11:11
It's not a monster, it doesn't follow any monster rules, the sword of fate doesn't work against it.

Sorry, there's no debate needed here.

Fate
15-11-2007, 11:34
Actually no, a chariot is destroyed by a hit of S7 or higher which won't happen to the steam tank and also a chariot is marked as one in the name.


It's not a monster, it doesn't follow any monster rules, the sword of fate doesn't work against it.

Sorry, there's no debate needed here.

Like i said, before in the other posts it does follow all the rules that apply to a monster and there is no monster tag. Maybe you look at it and say, if it is a warmachine it can't also be a monster which is an opinion i accept.
But the way i see it, there is no specific way to say this is a monster and that is not. The only way to see if it is or not is looking at the rules and check if it follows those rules or not, and if so, then it must also be classified as one.
By your way of thinking things like ogres, minautars, trolls, etc... Should be monster, however rules state that monster can't form units, it must be a single model except for riden monsters.

Atrahasis
15-11-2007, 11:58
Are cannons monsters and handlers then?

Fate
16-11-2007, 00:31
Course not, for starters they can't charge anything unlike any monster, second they are completly skirmishers and have 360 LOS unlike monsters and not to mention a cannon doesn't fight just the crew.

More to the point, such comparations are really not needed, i started the topic to make a serious debate on the rules of monsters and because this situation once happened and thus i decided to bring it up to have a simple debate.
Logic says, it's a warmachine and no more, but since logic is flawed in warhammer and rules count in game, not logic, i decided, lets see if there is something i haven't seen that could make it so that a steam tank can't count as a monster.

In a simple way to put things, everything that is a large target is a monster since all large targets follow the rules for monsters (unless i miss something) however, stupid as it sounds, a steam tank also fits that rule.

Highborn
16-11-2007, 02:16
The Steam Tank counts as a war machine in all respects

It's not a monster. Could it be any clearer?

WLBjork
16-11-2007, 04:08
Course not, for starters they can't charge anything unlike any monster, second they are completly skirmishers and have 360 LOS unlike monsters and not to mention a cannon doesn't fight just the crew.

War Machines and their crews are not skirmishers. Nor is there actually a 360 line of sight.

Fate
16-11-2007, 11:09
Yes it counts as a warmachine but since it follows the rules for monsters it also counts as a monster, that's my point, it counts as both.

Ok they are not completly skirmishers, they move like skirmishers but don't have the -1 to hit but they still do everything else like skirmishers.

Atrahasis
16-11-2007, 12:07
So what you're saying is that you'll modify your argument to support your conclusion?

tanglethorn
16-11-2007, 15:45
Yes it counts as a warmachine but since it follows the rules for monsters it also counts as a monster, that's my point, it counts as both.

Ok they are not completly skirmishers, they move like skirmishers but don't have the -1 to hit but they still do everything else like skirmishers.

Despite whether or not the Tank shares some of the properties of a monster, the Empire book specifically states its a Warmachine. I think it's pretty clear that it is not a Monster at this point because it is explicitly stated otherwise.

Of course, if you are not going to be convinced there is no more point to the argument. If you believe there is still room for debate then you should really use common sense as your next clue and hopefully come to the conclusion that the tank is not a living creature. It is also an exception to the normal rules in the BGB since the Army book it is listed in already states what the Steam actually is.

If it was intended to be both (which is very rare) then the book would typically say so. When someone feels that something is vague and the above does not help them come to a conclusion then as a last step I would try to understand what the developers had in mind, which I am 99% certain was not to have the Tank classified as a monster. Also gathering what the majority feels is not a bad option (or a quick vote from fellow players).

Sorry if I am ranting. I am just trying to understand how a player would insist that something is, when it's very probably that it's not, especially when the rule without a doubt bends in that players favor.

Cheers.

Jonke
16-11-2007, 21:01
Yes it counts as a warmachine but since it follows the rules for monsters it also counts as a monster, that's my point, it counts as both.

Ok they are not completly skirmishers, they move like skirmishers but don't have the -1 to hit but they still do everything else like skirmishers.

The steam tank doesn't follow the rules for monsters. But monsters and the steam tank follow the rules for how big single models behave in warhammer regarding movement and combat. These rules are shared by monsters, chariots, US 3+ single models and cavalry single models.

We have the Rule A. This rule is followed by unit types x, y and z. This doesn't mean x = z.

The rules for whfb are sadly very lacking considering unit types. Why they can't manage to include in all army lists what type each unit is is beyond me, especially since they've done this in 40k.

Fate
17-11-2007, 01:34
Yes i understand what you mean, of course that if we follow logic, the steam tank is not a living being and thus not a monster, however logic would say a sword of fate would be able to destroy a steam tank, since the sword is specifically forged to be the undoing of something, it would be logical that it could be forged to destroy a powerful steam tank.

And that's the only reason i'm putting logic aside, because often in warhammer, rules prevail over logic. Anyway i think there is no point in continuing this thread since you all have a point, and i still i think i have mine.

Perhaps no i'll make one new thread about assassinating Graham Mcneill for completly destroying the empire army when before it was one of the best and from what i see, all armies now are much better than before. But that's just what i think, i had made a review f the army some months ago and will post it sometime... when i revive my other computer.

ZomboCom
17-11-2007, 08:00
Character or Monster.

Character or Monster.

Not war machine.

There is nothing to suggest that the steam tank is monster, sorry.

T10
17-11-2007, 10:12
When I started playing this game, the Empire didn't have any fancy-schmancy tanks. They had two sticks and a rock for the whole troops selection. And they had to share the rock.

The description of the Steam Tank says: "Except where noted otherwise, the Steam Tank is a Warmachine in all respects."

While the Sword of Fate does not exclude Monster Warmachines (a kind of monster) or Character Warmachines (sic) (a kind of character), the Steam Tank does not appear to be either. There is no mention of the Steam Tank behaving as either a character or a monster.

As such you are advised to point the Sword of Fate in a different direction and leave the Steam Tank to your cannons. You've run the simmulations. They're tough, but they ain't invincible.

-T10