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Stezerok
14-11-2007, 13:12
So I've been hearing a lot about the ASF rule for the High Elves and I've heard some say its broken and others say its not. I don't think it is so much as I think we have to compensate for it now in our play style. It seems to me like High Elves will be on a much more defensive style than ever before, and will have great advantages when they don't charge.

I've also been hearing that a lot of other armies solutions are to compensate for the CC by using shooting or magic to take the advantage. Now my question is since Chaos shooting is non-existent, and magic is really expensive for us, how can we maintain our CC advantage against High Elves? I still haven't figured out a tactic thats reliable to try and pick apart a Spearmen/Sea Guard line, with some sort elite units and flankers ready to pounce. Any help would be appreciated thanks,

-Stezerok

mav1971
14-11-2007, 13:46
As a Chaos player I've never found too expensive taking a couple of sorcerers. And as for shooting you could always take Dogs of War. I have a unit of crossbowmen and a cannon.

I think it will be different challenge to fight High Elves with their new rules, but that's why they call it trial and error. No army or player is unstopable.

DivineVisitor
14-11-2007, 14:16
Ive been trying to figure out how my Slaaneshi Daemons are going to cope, and i have come to the comclusion... there not. Il just roll over and take my beating when i face High Elves hehe. Can't see Daemonettes fairing well in combat against just about any High Elves now. Even archers will get to stand and shoot and then hit me in combat first. Now im normally a total optimist... but i think im doomed against these new High Elves :cries:

Dominatrix
14-11-2007, 14:17
Use chariots. Lots of them! :cool: HE have little access to S7 attacks so you should be safe. Other than that i really don't know (except maybe to never include anything with an armor save worse than 4+).

Lex
14-11-2007, 14:22
It would help if you said what kinda chaos. Demon Legion is gonna have different responses than Mortals and so on. Generally, I would say chosen mortals will still make a mess of spears, str 3 is just not enough. Mino's, Dragon Ogres and other multi wound models would also be good. Lovely chaos chariots will destroy swordmasters or white lions as impact hits go before even ASF. Don't worry too much about not having shooting (I always hated seeing chaos armies take the DoW shooty stuff). RBT's are no fun but are manageable and I doubt you'll see lots of archers. Flanking units would be good as well. Take slaanesh magic to reposition the HE units as HE seriously needs to determine when and where battles will take place to win. Chaos mortals are also of comparable or better initiative to elves so ASF items like helm and lash would work.

Havock
14-11-2007, 15:02
That or toss a unit of chosen kngiths at something. Stuff still tends to die as a result of that. Swordmasters are tricky, but my tzeentch army gives me hopes for a green fire setup, or even *dumdum* indigo fire.

The entire unit gets a S2 hit, which isn't terribly bad, but if he has twelve models, that means you should get at least 1-2 casualties, one is enough really, sinc eit still means there is a horror.
Horror = bound spell: Give every model in the unit a S3 hit, that should count against something fragile as swordmasters.

Green fire is bestest though :p

Kerill
14-11-2007, 16:07
Sadly that doesnt work horror spells can only be cast at the start of the magic phase

Lex
14-11-2007, 16:24
I've used Chaos(tzeentch mostly) and HE for a while and from a HE perspective I much prefer to face Tzeentch magic than Slaanesh. I've had my Tzeentch magic fail me so many times even with 13 pd. If I were on the HE side I would specifically wait for Green fire agains either WL or SM, cast on other units I wouldn't much care. I would probably let everything go off if I was dispel tight but usually I would stop one other spell, most likely blue fire I think it is. Indigo backfires too much and would really be a liablility against HE. HE play lets it go, it kills one SM, the lone horror dies in combat and now you have a unit that doesn't care if it gets charged and loves to be in CC 2d6" closer to you or perhaps in another combat at the cost of 1 model that doesn't much matter (SM don't care about 2nd rank w/ 2 attacks a piece and WL are stubborn). With Slaanesh it is much harder, at least 3 good spells to worry about, can't remember names atm but 1) Unit redirection 2) Frenzy (more unit redirection) that hurts squishy things 3) unbreakable, which can really hurt as HE depend alot on not getting stuck in for multiple turns. With MSU and the fact that the Frenzy spell is not RIP the hits that it puts on a unit can really hurt. Then of course there is the str 6 magic missle that is just gravy.

ViperMagnum357
14-11-2007, 20:10
Chaos has plenty of options, but most people look for the easy way out(DoW, mega magic phase). HE get to go first, but they are still S3, T3 with mostly mediocre armour. Chosen chaos knights of any god or undivided with a hero can take 15 or 16 attacks off a spearmen unit and still crush them. Most Slaanesh magic can wreck a HE army, but Nurgle can lay the smack down too: Scabs can make them pushovers(even more so), Afflictions can cripple their cavalry, and Pestilence is nothing to sneer at. Tzeentch magic is general scorned, but it has great potential. Red and Blue Fire are up in the air, but with T3 and weak armour even a bad roll can waste elves. the rest I am ambivalent about versus HE, but green fire plays havoc with anything he has. Undivided has fire, death and shadow: Death, deathdealer gives you the last laugh and can really mess with your opponent, while The abundant magic missiles along with the lore of fire give you plenty of fun stuff. Shadow is abit trickier, but shades of death is a great nerve grinder while unseen lurker can let you charge from within the firing distance of stand and shoot reactions.
Getting off magic, Chariots of any stripe can wreck specialty units, and fear is never to be overlooked with any demon: even if you get pasted in combat, outnumber and outflank them, they are still finished with an autobreak:p. Slashing attacks on screamers, the thrown weapons on marauder horsemen and flamers of Tzeentch... plenty of flavor to go with a hellcannon. In straightup combat, the vastly superior stat line of chaos warriors with hand wepons/shields can be a game winner. Elf spearmen hit first, but hit on 4's, wound on 5's, and 2/3 of wounds are deflected. Said like that, 16 attacks translates into 1, maybe 2 wounds:wtf:. even with Tzeentch warriors, you should be able to push through at least one or two wounds, so it comes down to tactics and break tests. Throw in a champion or the mark of khorne, best of luck to the Elf player:evilgrin:. Point is, you don't have to do more wounds or even any wounds: use combat resolution to break them and run them down, shoot them up, and take heavy armour to shrug off the weight of attacks.:cool:

Lex
14-11-2007, 21:50
That's the sorta thing I was gonna suggest. An undivided lord w/ helm of many eyes will still go first over anything but the HE prince if i remember my initiative numbers right and w/ ld 9 and rerolls stupidity wont be an issue. You could take the crown of everlasting conquest just for kicks too but you really don't need much. Str 5 on T3 models with mostly heavy armor is sufficient. I don't think you'll see many lists w/ bunches of cav as the Silver Helms just aren't an efficient use of the limited points a HE player has. Add to the lord a couple of lvl 2 slaanesh sorces and for general giggles like 3 Tzeentch chariots. Season with a couple of just hand weapon/shield chaos warriors and you should be rockin'.

Stezerok
15-11-2007, 06:18
huh. well thats good. A lot of this stuff I was thinking about as well, I hope that means I'm not a total clutz when it comes to strategy games ;)

I've been meaning to ask also. If my lord has Helm of Many Eyes, and a great weapon, and he fights an opponent that strikes first as well, does my lord revert back to his normal initiative, or to the Strikes Last of the great weapon?

SkawtheFalconer
15-11-2007, 10:27
It would come down to initiative order. The helm of many eyes negates the strikes last of the great weapon.

CHOOBER SNIPES
15-11-2007, 22:13
all yall ideas sound good, but also take into account what the HE player will do. I mean, with SM's and WL's they know that chariots are the things that will hurt the most, so they'll try to avoid those. Also, when u match up a block of chaos warriors against the spears, remember that HE spears are 9 pts. each, while your HW/S warriors are 14 pts. This means that you will hav either fewer units, or less combat res and smaller units. So if u are going to fight HE without huge magic or DoW shooting, the best way to win is just to use superior tactics to your opponent. However, multiwound high T units will also fare well against the spears, as will Chaos warriors block on block. Just remember to avoid SM's and WL's with your warriors, and try as hard as u can to get what can beat them (chariots, crazy chaos knights with a char., etc) to fight them. One tactic that might actually work, tho it would be a trial thing and mayb really stupid, is to send a big block of mauraders into an obvious trap, and watch as the enemy flanks them and massacres them, then charge with your good units into the newly out of position units. the player may sacrifice his advantageous defensive position revealing a flank and a hole in his line. Don't make it obvious tho, as whatever u charge with mauraders probably will beat them, so if he doesnt take the bait, the marauders were pretty much a waste

Dragon Prince of Caledor
15-11-2007, 23:01
that is true. If what I have been told is true... High Elves are the answer to Chaos. From what I know Chaos troops are disgusting so I knew this would be a good match. If you have an idea as to what type of list your high elf opponent has you will standa better chance of winning. I say this because if he take larger units I would take many small units and chariots! I detest fighting chariots because unless i charge them my always strikes first does nothing. Maybe a giant.. They can take immense amounts of damage and take out ranks of high elf spearmen with one swing! Avoid things like white lions or swordmasters with the giant. Chaos warriors have a good armour save right... that means that spearmen will do nothing. the only thing to do against swordmasters is chariots. With white lions u need to beat them with something fear causing.. Theyare stubborn so the chariot trick wont work. If you put a character in a chariot and another chariot combines a charge against swordmasters the elves are finished :( lol good luck sorry i couldnt be of more use but i know nothing about chaos!

SkawtheFalconer
16-11-2007, 11:21
High Elves don't really represent any more of a difficulty for Chaos than the majority of other armies - you shouldn't really change your tactics for it. The main thing I'd be hoping for is that my Knights can get into combat relatively unscathed, when I know full well they'll be the target of multiple bolt thrower shots. I normally also take static blocks of marauders - they'd be in quite a lot of trouble, although I could always use them as bait units.