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Rodman49
14-11-2007, 16:10
From what A.Cavatore told me at the italian GT DE WILL get hatred against everyone and eternal hatred against HE (I asked if Shadow wariors were an attempt to playtest the new DE armywide rule and he smiled and said "I really like hatred for DE, I think it suits them well...") .
I also expressed my concern about the disadvantages of hatred: Cavatore said they are minor and you only have to pursue if you win HtH, not like frenzy. I told him about how sometimes my O&G opponents (I'm a dwarf player first and foremost) use cheap goblin units to disrupt my battleline forcing me to pursue and be charged on flank and front, he said that is surely a good tactic but in order for it to work you must be sure your bait will really lose or will even get into HtH and not get anihilated but magic/shooting. Basically he said if your opponent is able to use baits effectively he deserves the benefits they give.
From what I hear (but I wasn't personally told) other people told him hatred won't be enough to ballance SoA. He agreed and said DE will get rules able to make them even.

P.S.

I also asked about other things:
-It's most probable Hag Queens will come back and the cloudron of blood could very well be an option for them instead of a rare choice.
-Cavatore agreed DE assassins are too weak for their point cost and hinted they may get major improvements.
-I asked for better dark magic. He agreed it's too weak and said it will get MUCH more powerful and destructive. I asked for a spell to defend DE infantry from shooting (I suggested something called "Veil of darkness" that forces I tests to shoot all infantry units inside 12''). He said dark magic should not protect but utterly destroy (and he's right of course... It's only I feel if you want DE infantry to be played you need to give DE players ways to defend from shooting)... Anyway he said DE could get something like what I suggested in the form of a magic item.
-I asked about Hydras and why they do not regenerate since the most well known legend about Hydras (hercules, you know...) is centered about their ability to regenerate... When hearing this he simply smiled and said "they will" (regenerate). I take this has already been discussed and agreed upon.

This was posted in the balancing Dark Elves with HE ASF thread in general discussion, but figured it should be noted here as this is a more appropriate forum.

Eldarion
14-11-2007, 16:23
Hey it makes sense. I kinda expected and hoped to get that rule.

NallTWD
14-11-2007, 16:31
High elves get to strike first against everything and Dark elves have to pursue a beaten foe no matter what?

That's fair. And by fair I mean retarded.

Well, the HE army was the dynamite in the world of tactics, I guess the DE army is the match. After all, who needs tactics when you have an autopilot army? I mean hell.. If I toss a unit of skinks in front of them and they inevitably butcher them, I can set them up to do just about anything without thought. WTF are they thinking?

Faust
14-11-2007, 16:36
"High elves get to strike first against everything and Dark elves have to pursue a beaten foe no matter what?

That's fair. And by fair I mean retarded."

As if the High Elf Rumor thread has started again, here comes people complaining about what is not yet even conformed. How about as a community, Warseer, I included don't start complaning or making rash assumptions based on rumors.

Or we can start up the High Elf Rumors Thread again.
Just a thought.

Btw, Thanks Rodman49 for the info.

~Faust

Shadowsinner
14-11-2007, 16:41
did you ask about the models???

jimbob
14-11-2007, 16:41
I'm glad top hear that magic might get a beefing up. Their magic seems somewhat...neutered in my opinion at the mo.

gondarion
14-11-2007, 17:25
Yeah, I must say Hatred is a pretty dumb army-wide rule for the dark elves. Hatred is a strong emotion that only fits against dark elves (eternal hatred would be fine here), but they don't have that kind of emotional reaction to the other races, whom they simply disdain. Universal AP would be a far better army-wide rule IMO. Other than that, I like all the other rumours.

kaulem
14-11-2007, 17:34
Here's a suggestion for the powers that be...

Make the Cold-one mount "Frenzy" instead of Stupid. That would bring them on par with the Dragon Princes and keep with the background fluff.

In all the books, when the rider looses control of his cold-one, it doesn't stay put, it charges something...

Stormtrooper Clark
14-11-2007, 18:22
Awesome news.

MutantMaggot
14-11-2007, 18:27
For an evil general, this is the most aggravating piece of news ever ...

GW releases two of the best armies in existance in close proximity, and makes both awesome ... aaargh! I was trying to at least start my CSM army here!

Thanks for this awesome news. You, Rodman49, are what is commonly known as a 'legend'. :)
MM :)

Dominatrix
14-11-2007, 18:46
From what I hear (but I wasn't personally told) other people told him hatred won't be enough to ballance SoA. He agreed and said DE will get rules able to make them even.

Keeps fingers crossed and prays... :evilgrin:

Gorbad Ironclaw
14-11-2007, 18:50
*sigh* I really hope they are not going to give them a blanket hatred against everyone. It doesn't fit DE at all(they don't care about others, they are not even worth of contempt and certainly not strong emotions such as hatred), and it's a rubbish rule for a fragile precision army.

"Any opponent clever enough to bait deserves it..." It's hardly going to be difficult is it...

MagneticFreak
14-11-2007, 18:58
From what I hear (but I wasn't personally told) other people told him hatred won't be enough to ballance SoA. He agreed and said DE will get rules able to make them even.

Jeez,

GW are really into killing the game as it seems. Why dont they give DE just "Always Wounds" as were at it. To the point SoA brought the design spirit, I give WFB no more than 5 years at its gonna be as boring as 40k...

MutantMaggot
14-11-2007, 19:40
No. More interesting than 40k -- these rules are to STOP it being boring and characterless, you see. An excellent idea, but let's not spam the thread with useless whining and drivel, please ... (Not to anyone in particular. I don't mind whining, so long as it has at least five lines of reasoning. :D )

kheirakh
14-11-2007, 19:48
I would love that DE get hatered against everyone and eternal hatered against HE. The pursue thing is not as bad as it sounds. And if they make a rule to counter the ASF then DE will be perfect!

mav1971
14-11-2007, 20:00
Hey I got an idea. Lets wait for the Dark elf book to come out, read the rules and even play a couple of games before deciding whether or not the changes suck.

What was I thinking? Lets starting complaining now.

tanglethorn
14-11-2007, 20:03
I understand that HE needed to be balanced out. AoS was an honest intention, but there are a few points about it that I hate. First, it throws tactics right out the window. Why bother setting up for a charge to strike first when you know you will always strike first? Second it totally obliviates troops such as Goblins and Skinks. These types of units dont even have a standing chance agfainst a simple HE Archer in HtH.

Thirdly, what's up with missing around the the HE Army organizational chart? 5 Specials??

I like Fantasy more than 40k, but I'm kind of getting discouraged with these recent blanket racial powers that apply to 90% of an Army book's Unit choices.

On another note, Fantasy is starting to get more shooty with the introduction of some effective ranged power. With HE being frail and now having AoS, it further encourages players to start using more ranged units in the game. Just look at Wood Elves. No one enjoys playing against a list that has over 40 Archers. Again another example of GWE taking the tactics out of the game.

I'm starting to have my doubts about DE's now. Not because of any rumours, but because of where the game seems to be heading.

MutantMaggot
14-11-2007, 20:07
Well, shootiness will only be an issue until every race gets its own special rule ... and then Empire will be forced to employ a gunline. As far as I'm concerned, guns will be employed, but only until every old army is updated. Or you're dwarves or Empire. :eyebrows:

brambleten
14-11-2007, 20:46
i like the sound of Hydras getting regeneration. would that make them more popular than RBTs? it would in my book, apart from the fact they are too damn annoying to stick together. if they brought out a plastic one, matters would change.

silashand
14-11-2007, 20:52
High elves get to strike first against everything and Dark elves have to pursue a beaten foe no matter what?

That's fair. And by fair I mean retarded.

I think you're missing an adjective in that last sentence. I'll give you a hint, it starts with an F... ;)

Army-wide hatred is so *******' unbalanced for a lightly armoured, low toughness army that it's not even funny. It's fine against HE because it makes sense from a background perspective. But against *everyone*? Hell no. Of course, since I absolutely despise the idea I'm absolutely certain that it will probably happen. However, that doesn't make it any less ****** stupid IYAM. They took a frustrating rule out of the High Elves (I@C) and now look to be giving the DE one just as irritating. So much for what's actually *fun*.

The other changes seem okay though. Dark Magic has needed fixing for a while now.

Cheers, Gary

Lord Raneus
14-11-2007, 21:14
I would love that DE get hatered against everyone and eternal hatered against HE. The pursue thing is not as bad as it sounds. And if they make a rule to counter the ASF then DE will be perfect!

...
Hatred does not work, for several reasons. It does not represent the Druchii as they are portrayed right now against any races except the HE. The Druchii do not hate the lesser races, they simply look down upon them and think them beneath the Druchii.


Also, Hatred forces us to pursue. HE get ASF, for every CC round, and we get to re-roll failed hits in the first round of CC, and have to pursue? I think not...:eyebrows:

Basically, this is my objection. The HE special rule cannot be used against them by a skilled opponent, nor cause them to lose the game. Hatred as an AWR could, by forcing us to pursue into all sorts of lovely things like flank attacks, cavalry charges, firing lanes, and monsters. Pass.

If this happens, Druchii.net will probably spontaneously combust.;)

*notices regenerating hydras*
*dances*

Hrogoff the Destructor
14-11-2007, 21:27
From what I hear (but I wasn't personally told) other people told him hatred won't be enough to ballance SoA. He agreed and said DE will get rules able to make them even.


I bet they will just negate the HE's speed of Asuryan. Seriously, I have no idea how else they could balance that out when fighting Dark Elves (ward save perhaps?).

I think hatred against all armies will be just fine. They have a ton of strength 3, and it's not like High Elves where most the squads get some sort of strength benefit.

I personally like Dark Elf magic. Just get rid of soul stealer and replace it with something better (you know, something with a range better than 6 inches).

sulla
14-11-2007, 21:32
As if the High Elf Rumor thread has started again, here comes people complaining about what is not yet even conformed.

Not a great example though... those rumours turned out to be true.


Jeez,

GW are really into killing the game as it seems. Why dont they give DE just "Always Wounds" as were at it. .
Always wounds huh? Sounds fair. it balances out our armywide "Always wounded" special rule quite nicely. ;)

Lord Raneus
14-11-2007, 21:36
I bet they will just negate the HE's speed of Asuryan. Seriously, I have no idea how else they could balance that out when fighting Dark Elves (ward save perhaps?).

I think hatred against all armies will be just fine. They have a ton of strength 3, and it's not like High Elves where most the squads get some sort of strength benefit.

I personally like Dark Elf magic. Just get rid of soul stealer and replace it with something better (you know, something with a range better than 6 inches).


It won't be fine, because it lets clever players bait our units into monsters, gunlines, and flank charges, because of Always Pursue. Hatred without pursue, maybe, but I'd like something else. It also horribly butchers our army's fluff. No thank you.

silashand
14-11-2007, 21:43
Always wounds huh? Sounds fair. it balances out our armywide "Always wounded" special rule quite nicely. ;)

Ain't that the truth! ;)

Cheers, Gary

Mythrider
14-11-2007, 21:48
Despite the drawbacks of Hatred having it as an army wide rule is going to make the Cauldron of Blood extremely attractive.

Re-rolling to hit and to wound. Yes please.

I already run a Cauldron army with 2 units of Witches, they have to pursue everything any way.

Red
14-11-2007, 21:51
I fail to see how this kills DE fluff. You are all saying things like "Dark Elves just see themselves as superior, and "The Druchii do not hate the lesser races, they simply look down upon them and think them beneath the Druchii."

A great quote I seem to remember goes something along the lines of Druchii see other races as cattle. Guess what, if those cattle rose up to fight you, it'd be a huge insult to you, and you'd want to beat the crap out of them, hence hatred.

It's identical to racism. Looking down on other races tends to lead toward hatred. Remember, hatred does not necessarily mean a blind rage.

I do agree being forced to pursue sucks, considering it is an elven army. I'd say wait and see. If the dark elves are given army wide hatred, then they'll be given other things to make up for it. Look at the High Elf list, it was made an elite army, and so will the new Druchii. Seriously, look at the trends for the new books, the dark elves will not have happen to them what occured in 6th edition.

Lord Raneus
14-11-2007, 21:56
I fail to see how this kills DE fluff. You are all saying things like "Dark Elves just see themselves as superior, and "The Druchii do not hate the lesser races, they simply look down upon them and think them beneath the Druchii."

A great quote I seem to remember goes something along the lines of Druchii see other races as cattle. Guess what, if those cattle rose up to fight you, it'd be a huge insult to you, and you'd want to beat the crap out of them, hence hatred.

It's identical to racism. Looking down on other races tends to lead toward hatred. Remember, hatred does not necessarily mean a blind rage.



If a cow you're milking attacks you, do you feel insulted and seek bloody vengeance upon it? No, you neutralize it and move on. That is the case with the DE.

And I agree that no matter what, they're in for a boost. I'm just concerned that this may not be a good "boost".

CHOOBER SNIPES
14-11-2007, 22:07
not sure if this is an idea thread so if it isnt sry and dont keep posting, but what if they gave front rank of spears S4, i mean look at the models' spears, theyre big heavy bladed weapons that would hav quite a bit of strength behind them, and that would help DE in terms of lacking strength. Also, giv the cold one users (knights and chariots) an ability to prod their cold one on. When u fail an important stupidity save, u poke with something pointy and move fine, but in return u take X amount of strength X hits, representing them gettin stabbed. Fluffy and rules balancing. This might be too drastic but maybe giv DE crossbows poison if they fire one shot, but make em kinda expensive. That would again be fluffy and kinda cool, or mayb even make a spell that does it for multi shot and single. Lastly, give extra VP's for units that are run down by at least lik 2 or 3 inches, showing that the DE easily capture the runners and enslave them.

Lord Raneus
14-11-2007, 22:08
The thing is, what CoK would be stupid enough to kill his forty-foot-long dinosaur mount? :P

Like the ideas, though.

lethlis
14-11-2007, 22:12
Ok, so you know about hatred, he knows about hatred. So when is this magically period going to be when you have no fricking clue what is going on? If he has a bait unit shoot it to bits don't charge it. If he charges you and you kill it and pursue, whoopie its your turn next gives you a chance to readjust.

and looking at the stupidity for DE cold ones fluff, they are so well trained that if anything they go into a blood frenzy and thats it. Infact in one of the stories a general wiped blood on the snouts of the cold ones to make then go into a frenzied charge.

Lord Raneus
14-11-2007, 22:21
So what do you propose I do if he has a combat unit in range to charge me, and a unit that will flank me if I charge him and pursue? Let him charge me and slaughter his way through T3, low AS Elves?:eyebrows:

I'm worried about what happens when I pursue in my CC phase, not his.

Khorghan
14-11-2007, 22:21
High elves get to strike first against everything and Dark elves have to pursue a beaten foe no matter what?

That's fair. And by fair I mean retarded.

Well, the HE army was the dynamite in the world of tactics, I guess the DE army is the match. After all, who needs tactics when you have an autopilot army? I mean hell.. If I toss a unit of skinks in front of them and they inevitably butcher them, I can set them up to do just about anything without thought. WTF are they thinking?

They arnt thinking!, they have to alter the rule if there going to use it because this is just stupid.

Shadowsinner
14-11-2007, 22:22
to be true to the fluff why not just give them "dislike" instead of hatred... so you get the rerolled attacks but you dont have to pursue... dark elves dont "hate" everyone but rather dislike them out of sense of superiority... so it would be like "god you guys are annoying, i'm gonna get my licks in on you, but your not worth the overkill"

and what about the new models!?!?

Lord Raneus
14-11-2007, 22:22
Hatred with another name, like "Martial skillz", and not having to pursue b/c of their discipline might be acceptable.

Hellebore
14-11-2007, 22:30
It won't be fine, because it lets clever players bait our units into monsters, gunlines, and flank charges, because of Always Pursue. Hatred without pursue, maybe, but I'd like something else. It also horribly butchers our army's fluff. No thank you.

If it allows clever players to bait you, would it not also allow clever druchii players to use it to their advantage? Or are all the clever players using different armies?

I wasn't a fan of Speed of Asuryan because it cut out an important chunk of the close combat rules. It also meant the entire HE army got horrendously high Initiative great weapon attacks that weren't just not striking last, they were striking FIRST! At least they could have removed the SoA when wielding a great weapon...

But the reason this happened was because the combat system has 'always strikes first' for charging, rather than an Initiative bonus.


I wouldn't be surprised if the Dark Elves had Hatred of everyone AND poisoned attacks (for every weapon they use).


As for the argument that the druchii merely look 'down' on the lesser races, that particular opinion is held by the High Elves - the druchii despise the lesser races. They aren't sentient creatures to them but rather herd beasts to be farmed and used when needed.

They may not 'hate' them, but they do loathe them. And in the WFB rules the special rules for Hatred can 'counts as' loathing...

Hellebore

- Human
14-11-2007, 22:39
Army-wide hatred is so *******' unbalanced for a lightly armoured, low toughness army that it's not even funny. It's fine against HE because it makes sense from a background perspective. But against *everyone*? Hell no. Of course, since I absolutely despise the idea I'm absolutely certain that it will probably happen. However, that doesn't make it any less ****** stupid IYAM. They took a frustrating rule out of the High Elves (I@C) and now look to be giving the DE one just as irritating. So much for what's actually *fun*.

I agree. This hatred stuff is absoute bull... and youre absolutely right. It's just bad enough that it's guaranteed to happen. I'm very disappointed in this bleak prospect of the Dark Elves' future. I'm sure they will be balanced vs. HE in the end, but that's not the issue. Honestly. Do dark elf corsairs actually HATE rat ogres? Do shades really HATE chaos spawn?

One insane thing is how hatred would affect witch elves - that's a LOT of potential 6's.

kheirakh
14-11-2007, 22:44
...
Hatred does not work, for several reasons. It does not represent the Druchii as they are portrayed right now against any races except the HE. The Druchii do not hate the lesser races, they simply look down upon them and think them beneath the Druchii.


Also, Hatred forces us to pursue. HE get ASF, for every CC round, and we get to re-roll failed hits in the first round of CC, and have to pursue? I think not...:eyebrows:

Basically, this is my objection. The HE special rule cannot be used against them by a skilled opponent, nor cause them to lose the game. Hatred as an AWR could, by forcing us to pursue into all sorts of lovely things like flank attacks, cavalry charges, firing lanes, and monsters. Pass.

If this happens, Druchii.net will probably spontaneously combust.;)

*notices regenerating hydras*
*dances*

Having played warhammer for 13 - 14 years, I know the current rules for hatered and the pursue thing..

You know, the more points the opponent uses into "baiting" units, the more points he will have less for shooting, magic, super characters etc. So I wouldn't be afraid of few "bait" units.. And you can always shoot the baiters, and magic them - as some rumours suggest, dark magic is getting more destructive, so you should be able to use new tactics against armies that try to take advantage of your hatered. The pursue thing is really a minor drawback - I think that the reroll to hit means a lot for many units. The more you hit, the more you wound. That's just my logic.

Peegore
14-11-2007, 22:53
'Hatred doesn't represent the Dark Elves as they are now' seems to be the common concensus. Problem is, ( and going by the number of pages dedicated to fluff 'n' pics in the new High Elf Book ), Games Workshop will have around 88 pages to explain and 'fluff' that away, and try make us believe ' Hey, this is now how it has always been... look we've even put 6 pages of timelines in to prove it '

Haquim
14-11-2007, 23:17
I already said this in the thread the first message comes from: DE will most probably get hate everyone, and that's because hate is the thing representing how they look at the world better. DE have twisted souls, hatred shows this (and for old players, it links directly with the BG from 5th ed. HE book, where the shadow wariors are said to be tainted in a similar way to the druchii). Against HE their hate is absolute (thus eternal hatred).
Btw as I said before several people complained eternal hatred won't make DE as strong as HE. Cavatore said they know, and that even venom isn't enough, but they want DE to be ballanced against HE and DE will get rules to make this possible.

P.S.

A little something I forgot to mention: it's possible witches will get always reroll to hit and to wound. Not sure but possible (I don't know if he meant it with the cloudron in play, but by the way he said it I think not).

Jericho
14-11-2007, 23:25
I don't play Dark Elves (I was going to, but then they came out with the Manflayers and I could include really, really good ones in my DOW army) but I think that giving their shooting attacks poison would go a long way towards balancing out the army. I love my Manflayers because they dish out a ton of shooting attacks with BS5 and poison. They can put a dent in just about anything. Killing a Hellcannon with S3 missile fire is probably one of my favorite moments of Fantasy... especially after I used those same Manflayers to force a unit of Marauders and a Chaos Sorceror to flee into the same rampaging Hellcannon :D

My biggest beef with the army list is the ineffectiveness of the basic infantry, pretty much same as everyone else. They are outshone by the HE equivalents in about every imaginable way right now. Poison could help out the shooting quite a bit, without making them too much of a threat to heavy cav or other more expensive units. Having a race-specific variant of Hatred which allowed you to not pursue would be pretty fantastic, even if it was HE only. Negating the HE always strike first rule would be a nifty ability as well, since it forces the HE to actually think :p Call it "Know thyne enemy" or something I don't care!

I also agree that Frenzy on COK might be better than Stupidity... I fail to understand how a savage and uncontrollable killing machine like a Cold One would sit around drooling on the floor like a Troll.

Baindread
14-11-2007, 23:56
Why are there so many comparing DE to HE? Why should DE get anything which HE got? If you are so hellbent on wanting everything HE has in the DE book then GW should remove the DE army book and just rewrite all the background into "The elves fell apart at one point but apologised to each other and had a piece of cake". Seriously, you need to majorly shift your focus to comparing DE so that they are on an even level with the other 12 armies. DE should be majorly different from HE but on the same power level as Chaos, Bretts, WE, VC and Skaven.

Rodman49
14-11-2007, 23:56
Poisoned shooting . . .

Men, all hail the ASSAULT CANNON of Fantasy! The new Repeater Crossbow!

By the way, Hatred plus poisoned melee combat would pretty nutto. Think about it. "Oh wait, I missed, guess that means I just get another chance to auto-wound you!"

MildlyAbrasive
15-11-2007, 00:01
Any ability given to the DE that is specifically targeted at negating or minimizing the effects of ASF is a terrible approach to balance DE. If DE got a rule to nullify HE's ASF then, in order to keep the two armies balanced, we should have to pay points per model for that ability equal to what HE's pay for ASF. However, those points spent per model become worthless and wasteful against any army that doesn't ASF. This will balance us against HE and gimp us against every other army. No thank you.

Bloodknight
15-11-2007, 00:02
Yeah, poisoned shooting is pretty destructive. It's one of the reasons Menghils Manflayers are so great. BS5 poisoned RXB.

Jericho
15-11-2007, 00:12
I am in no way advocating the poison + hatred combo for close combat, I know how insane that is. It's not as destructive as the rending rules from 40k (I was considering making a joke about that, but rending is even more destructive than killing blow (you get at least twice as many chances to roll a 6 to hit than to wound) so it's like comparing apples and oranges).

The apples and oranges thing is actually kind of amusing in the DE/HE context. Here you're comparing apples and rotten apples in a sense :evilgrin:

I don't think that there necessarily has to be a direct equivalent for every unit in the HE army list, although there is certainly a historical precedent for such an equivalency. The Dark Elves, after all, were once High Elves. At least some of the traditions would likely be passed down, ie. halberd wielding nutters with special abilities, highly drained guys with bigass swords, sneaky gitz that are good at ambush tactics, etc.

The big problem is that Dark Elves would struggle mightily to defeat the current High Elves because they are so outclassed in almost every way. Repeater crossbows are inaccurate and shorter ranged than HE archers, and there is no possibility of them shooting in 2 ranks. I'd much rather have crossbows, handguns, or something with a clear advantage compared to the kinda half decent at most things RXB. In combat, the DE have a pros/cons special rule where HE go first and smack things silly. Dark Elves can't afford to go last all the time since they are currently still T3 and don't have access to many models with 4+ or better saves in combat. HE magic has always been fantastic, and should easily be able to shut down DE offensive magic. Especially if the new book still allows for character customization like the old one.

I'm not saying they need to hand out a bunch of assault cannons to make DE playable, I'm just saying that they are even less capable of taking on HE now unless they get a few key tweaks in the near future. The new HE book doesn't change how DE fare against other armies.

MildlyAbrasive
15-11-2007, 00:32
I'm not saying they need to hand out a bunch of assault cannons to make DE playable, I'm just saying that they are even less capable of taking on HE now unless they get a few key tweaks in the near future. The new HE book doesn't change how DE fare against other armies.

It does if it becomes the new standard of where to set the bar for every new armybook.

TheDarkDaff
15-11-2007, 00:35
Cavatore said they are minor and you only have to pursue if you win HtH, not like frenzy

This has got me thinking. What situation other than winning combat do you ever get to pursue. Am i missing something here?

Hatred isn't so bad because most of the time you want to pursue a broken foe anyway. I probably only test to restrain pursuit once every other game.

Bloodknight
15-11-2007, 00:43
Frenzied units have to overrun slain enemies. He probably meant that.

Thommy H
15-11-2007, 00:44
This has got me thinking. What situation other than winning combat do you ever get to pursue. Am i missing something here?

He means that, unlike with Frenzy, they don't have to charge. The comment about baiting units and so in is his way of saying "if you're dumb enough to charge a small, sacrificial unit when you know you have to pursue into range of stronger units, then it's your own stupid fault".

I see no fluff-issue with Dark Elves having Hatred either. They feel contempt for anything that isn't them - I think the cow analogy was a pretty good one. If your source of food (or labour or whatever...) rises up against you, you want to destroy it totally (and efficiently) to stop them: so a re-roll to hit in close combat at the cost of compulsory pursuit (because you want to destroy them totally as quickly as possible) seems to make sense to me. Why would the Dark Elves restrain themselves from chasing after fleeing members of upstart races? As cold and calculating as they are, their sense of racial superiority would endow them with an awful lot of confidence.

Furthermore, I think the whole army having Hatred is quite a good answer to ASF - both seem to be hediously game-breaking at first glance (they get to re-roll all their hit rolls in the first round? Crazy!) but actually aren't that great. The only difference in the reaction this time is that everyone seems to have jumped ahead a few steps and are now bemoaning the disadvantage of Hatred. Crazy!

silashand
15-11-2007, 00:55
He means that, unlike with Frenzy, they don't have to charge. The comment about baiting units and so in is his way of saying "if you're dumb enough to charge a small, sacrificial unit when you know you have to pursue into range of stronger units, then it's your own stupid fault".

While I think it's stupid of him to allow my opponent to charge those fast sacrificial units like chaos hounds into my lines and force me to break/pursue them out of my organized battle line. Having *every single enemy* be able to do this, even pathetic goblin wolf riders and such is just so idiotic as to be insanely abusable by a good opponent. Sorry, but if it does come to pass I may have to change my mind about revisiting my Dark Elves after all.

Cheers, Gary

Palatine Katinka
15-11-2007, 01:15
Remember that 'pathetic goblin' units will probably suffer Fear from your army so might not be able to charge into your lines to draw you out. ;)

Has anyone heard anything about Shades? I'm hoping they look at the first Darkblade novel for background to them and make them a bunch of disturbing freaks. Possibly make them cause Fear.

Jerrus
15-11-2007, 01:16
As someone allready pointed out, if you pursue his weak unit that charged you, its YOUR turn to act.

silashand
15-11-2007, 01:19
As someone allready pointed out, if you pursue his weak unit that charged you, its YOUR turn to act.

And if he forced me to pursue far enough out to block carefully planned charges in my turn? How exactly is that a good thing?

Cheers, Gary

Rodman49
15-11-2007, 01:20
Yeah, poisoned shooting is pretty destructive. It's one of the reasons Menghils Manflayers are so great. BS5 poisoned RXB.

Sweet jesus why haven't I heard of these guys before. Did they come in a boxed set, I can't find them in the US store . . .

Palatine Katinka
15-11-2007, 01:24
Mengil's Manflayers on the UK store:

here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99110212061&orignav=13)

Rules for them:

here (http://uk.games-workshop.com/dogsofwar/manflayers/1/)

Haquim
15-11-2007, 01:32
What I asked Cavatore is DE became subtle and evil, using dirty tricks to win. The way I see them they are the ultimate machiavellians: anything is good if it gets the job done.
They worship success: if you win no one is going to question the way you did, but when you lose, then that means you are weak (no matter how much the odds were stacked against you) and you deserve your position to be taken from you, better if in a bloody and definitive manner.
If the rules can show these aspects of the druchii character then I'll be happy with the book.

P.S.

I didn't want to tell you this but since I revealed all the rest I can very well tell you all: I asked for malekith to become fearsome as he deserves to be, not a laughable opponent like he's now. I suggested the tale of finuval's plain hints he's much more than a simple mage, since, when Teclis burns him to a crisp he sends his spirit into the realm of chaos. Since only gods and demons can exist in the realm of chaos how did Malekith survive? And return (his body had been incinerated...)? I suggested that maybe the whole legend about a male enchanter taking Malekith's place could have been a clever rouse by the Witch King, something to explain why he wanted male enchanters abducted. That would be because he uses their bodies as hosts when he needs a solid anchor in the physichal world. Basically he became a sort of demon god long time ago, and needs suitable host bodies (able to use magic, that is) to "live" in normal reality. Then when he uses too much power he consumes the host and needs a new body.
Well, after listening to all this tirade Cavatore told me that was a possibility (only he said "philacteries" are common items in phantasy...) BUT about Malekith they have a though decision to make. Redoing him, and then he will get all it takes to live to his name and be TRULY scary or take the "courageous decision" (his words, not mine) to do like they did with Nagash and say he's too powerful to have rules. He said they haven't decided what to do yet, but they are thinking on it.
What would you like?

Hellebore
15-11-2007, 02:02
I didn't want to tell you this but since I revealed all the rest I can very well tell you all: I asked for malekith to become fearsome as he deserves to be, not a laughable opponent like he's now. I suggested the tale of finuval's plain hints he's much more than a simple mage, since, when Teclis burns him to a crisp he sends his spirit into the realm of chaos. Since only gods and demons can exist in the realm of chaos how did Malekith survive? And return (his body had been incinerated...)? I suggested that maybe the whole legend about a male enchanter taking Malekith's place could have been a clever rouse by the Witch King, something to explain why he wanted male enchanters abducted. That would be because he uses their bodies as hosts when he needs a solid anchor in the physichal world. Basically he became a sort of demon god long time ago, and needs suitable host bodies (able to use magic, that is) to "live" in normal reality. Then when he uses too much power he consumes the host and needs a new body.
Well, after listening to all this tirade Cavatore told me that was a possibility (only he said "philacteries" are common items in phantasy...) BUT about Malekith they have a though decision to make. Redoing him, and then he will get all it takes to live to his name and be TRULY scary or take the "courageous decision" (his words, not mine) to do like they did with Nagash and say he's too powerful to have rules. He said they haven't decided what to do yet, but they are thinking on it.
What would you like?


the problem with the 'courageous' decision is that they haven't done it for so many other characters in the game that are arguably as powerful if not moreso than Malekith.

2nd generation slann, lord kroak, Archaon etc these are massively powerful and yet still have rules.

Hellebore

Lord Raneus
15-11-2007, 02:09
He means that, unlike with Frenzy, they don't have to charge. The comment about baiting units and so in is his way of saying "if you're dumb enough to charge a small, sacrificial unit when you know you have to pursue into range of stronger units, then it's your own stupid fault".

I see no fluff-issue with Dark Elves having Hatred either. They feel contempt for anything that isn't them - I think the cow analogy was a pretty good one. If your source of food (or labour or whatever...) rises up against you, you want to destroy it totally (and efficiently) to stop them: so a re-roll to hit in close combat at the cost of compulsory pursuit (because you want to destroy them totally as quickly as possible) seems to make sense to me. Why would the Dark Elves restrain themselves from chasing after fleeing members of upstart races? As cold and calculating as they are, their sense of racial superiority would endow them with an awful lot of confidence.



Dark Elves do not hate the lesser races, though. Do you hate a cow if it injures you while you're milking it? They'd have to give the rule a different name, like "Disdain" or something, because hatred does not make sense.

Also, Dark Elves do not hesitate to sacrifice slaves when the battle demands it, as evidenced in a story in the book itself. Therefore, risking their entire battle plan by recklessly pursuing opposing units doesn't really make sense, no?

My main beef with this is that it makes it virtually impossible for DE to hold a solid battle line, or even count on a unit being in a certain place at a certain time. It turns them from the ruthless, calculating and highly skilled army they should be into, well, Orcs and Goblins. No thank you, please.:p

Palatine Katinka
15-11-2007, 02:36
the problem with the 'courageous' decision is that they haven't done it for so many other characters in the game that are arguably as powerful if not moreso than Malekith.

But if they do it for him they are saying that he is that powerful, the old rules are unrepresentative. Alternatively they can bring him up a bit and still include him. How great do they want him to be? Personally, I'd like to be able to field him and I'd like him to be scary enough to give Tyrion and Teclis a run for their money but I would also see it as quite cool if they said he's so much more powerful than them that he can't be fielded.

Haquim
15-11-2007, 02:45
Dark Elves do not hate the lesser races, though. Do you hate a cow if it injures you while you're milking it? They'd have to give the rule a different name, like "Disdain" or something, because hatred does not make sense.

Also, Dark Elves do not hesitate to sacrifice slaves when the battle demands it, as evidenced in a story in the book itself. Therefore, risking their entire battle plan by recklessly pursuing opposing units doesn't really make sense, no?

My main beef with this is that it makes it virtually impossible for DE to hold a solid battle line, or even count on a unit being in a certain place at a certain time. It turns them from the ruthless, calculating and highly skilled army they should be into, well, Orcs and Goblins. No thank you, please.:p

They are twisted creatures. Their spirit is warped and they were born from a powerful curse. They hate other races because, DESPITE BEING INFERIORS those races resist them and DENY what they think they are entitled to (namely world domination...). It's not like a cow harming the farmer but rather like the nazis hating other peoples (that they considered subhumans in great part) because they dare resist them.

@Hellebore: I think it's because special characters became usable in GW turnaments and integral parts of their army lists. O&G, Empire and HE all have special characters who are meant to be ballanced (although I doubt they playtested Teclis very well...:p). Ballancing Malekith could mean he cannot be what he should be, and thus they think of letting him in the BG saying he's too powerful to have rules.

Darkspear
15-11-2007, 03:40
Poisoned shooting . . .

Men, all hail the ASSAULT CANNON of Fantasy! The new Repeater Crossbow!

By the way, Hatred plus poisoned melee combat would pretty nutto. Think about it. "Oh wait, I missed, guess that means I just get another chance to auto-wound you!"

The true assault cannon of fantasy are repeater handguns. 3 shots per gun and fired by a BS4 human (better shooting than an elf).

Skeinsliver
15-11-2007, 07:10
As one of the possible upgrades for DE, has anyone else ever thought of making RxB to be able to shoot EITHER 2 S3 multi-shots OR a single S4 shot? I've always thought that would be a great but subtle boost and fluffy.

PS - I don't want to see RxB getting poisoned shots however - just too much IMHO, even as a DE player

Dominatrix
15-11-2007, 10:18
Why should DE get anything which HE got?

I would think that DE have much more in common with HE, that say with chaos, or skaven, or anything else. They were essentially the same people divided by a civil war. Yes I agree that DE are not necessarilly "HE with spikes"
but they have a lot of similarities and this is evident in their armies (comprised primarilly of fast but fragile units). So no people don't really ask for DE to be exactly HE. They demand however that DE don't get the short end of the stick and be left with just some lame AWR like hatred while HE got a significant power boost thanks to SoA. And since ASF is one of the few ways that DE infantry can be made viable, just as HE was made viable thanks to it, that's why people ask that DE share something with HE. Besides it is not the first time two armies have similar rules. VC and TK are both undead and yet they are very, very different.

ganymed
15-11-2007, 11:23
While I think it's stupid of him to allow my opponent to charge those fast sacrificial units like chaos hounds into my lines and force me to break/pursue them out of my organized battle line. Having *every single enemy* be able to do this, even pathetic goblin wolf riders and such is just so idiotic as to be insanely abusable by a good opponent. Sorry, but if it does come to pass I may have to change my mind about revisiting my Dark Elves after all.

Cheers, Gary

Hello Gary,
i just reread the rules for hatred and overrun a little bit.
If the enemy charges his 5 chaos hounds into my spearelves, itīs quite probable that with hatred iīll kill all of them. As you only "overrun" in 7th if you yourself charged (unlike 6th edition where even the charged opponent got a chance to make an overrun move), thereīs no overrun move to be made.
Voila, steady battle line and free VP for the dark elves.

I really prefer the hatred to frenzy, as i still get a chance to close my battleline as all baiting through pursuit moves takes place in the opponents turn.
I see your point as hatred can be a drawback in quite some situations, but it can be really helpful, too (i always put my empire warrior priest in a unit of knights to let them benefit from hatred).

I think eternal hatred for de vs he will still not cut the pie , but hatred vs everyone. oh, yes please :D

Jerrus
15-11-2007, 11:26
And if he forced me to pursue far enough out to block carefully planned charges in my turn? How exactly is that a good thing?

Cheers, Gary

Well, then your carefully planned charges weren't that carefully planned.

Your suggesting that your opponent can get a unit within charge range of you and line up another unit to counter charge your pursuit a turn later?

Sounds like he's the one doing the careful planning.

Thommy H
15-11-2007, 11:31
Do you hate a cow if it injures you while you're milking it?

No, but if the cows rose up against me and tried to fight back in an organised way (and I was the owner of the cows whose livelihood depended on those cows being docile) then I can imagine I'd be pretty keen to kill the rebels.

The thing is, I look at it this way: from the omniscient view of the player, what you want is to win the battle. For you, a handful of goblins running towards the edge of the table is as good as killing the whole unit. But for the Dark Elves, that's not victory: victory is ruthlessly slaughtering the lesser races. They're disciplined, but their aim is almost always to annihilate or enslave the enemy, rather than some other more objective battlefield aim. I'm guessing your average Dark Elf doesn't care much about grabbing table quarters...

So I can understand the logic of them always wanting to pursue. To them, killing every last one of the enemy is the whole reason they're there in the first place. Why are they going to let any escape? They're not going against the plan, because the plan is yours, not theirs, if you follow me. Even their leaders will probably feel the same way.

Varath- Lord Impaler
15-11-2007, 11:36
So I can understand the logic of them always wanting to pursue. To them, killing every last one of the enemy is the whole reason they're there in the first place. Why are they going to let any escape? They're not going against the plan, because the plan is yours, not theirs, if you follow me. Even their leaders will probably feel the same way.

Also, the easiest way to capture slaves is by beating them senseless as they retreat.

Archmagus
15-11-2007, 12:26
-I asked for better dark magic. He agreed it's too weak and said it will get MUCH more powerful and destructive. I asked for a spell to defend DE infantry from shooting (I suggested something called "Veil of darkness" that forces I tests to shoot all infantry units inside 12''). He said dark magic should not protect but utterly destroy (and he's right of course... It's only I feel if you want DE infantry to be played you need to give DE players ways to defend from shooting)... Anyway he said DE could get something like what I suggested in the form of a magic item. I can understand where they're coming from, Dark magic being evil, powerful and destructive and all, but the spells from the current magic lores for the other two Elf armies (the new High Magic and the Lore of Athel Loren) have a lot of subtlety and versatility to them which the Dark magic list sorely lacks.

Each of the other Elf lores is made up of a collection of further spell lores which best embody the army's personality as a whole.
The Lore of Athel Loren is made up of a combination of qualities from the Lore of Life (tree-huggers), Lore of Beasts (animal-friendly), Lore of Shadows (secretive/mysterious) and High Magic (former Ulthuanians).

The new High Magic list is made up of a combination of qualities from the Lore of Light (pure & noble), Lore of Heavens (scholarly guides), Lore of Fire (cleansing flames) and Lore of Metal (master enchanters) with some of High Magic's uniqueness thrown in.

Surely Dark magic should have qualities from Lore of Death (soul-sucking curses), Lore of Slaanesh (manipulation/domination), Necromancy (unnatural bargains) and High Magic (former Ulthuanians), with some kind of signature default spell like Drain Magic and Tree-Singing included?

It looks to me like the High Elves and Wood Elves have a variety of characterful spells to work with so that their mages can adapt to various situations which make them powerful, influential and a force to be reckoned with. Dark magic seems to be a little one-dimensional. Elves of all colours should have magic down to an art form, able to bend it to whatever purpose they wish and Sorceresses shouldn't miss out on that.

Presently, it's universally agreed that the Lore of Slaanesh is much more effective than Dark magic, and that shouldn't be the case.

Varath- Lord Impaler
15-11-2007, 12:35
Wait a moment..

So normal Dark Elves get Hatred

They all get eternal hatred against High elves

I think Black guard should get "Hateyoutodeath!!!!"
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-34640480252896_1973_4178001

It counts as a S6 Shooting attack.

Haquim
15-11-2007, 13:11
I can understand where they're coming from, Dark magic being evil, powerful and destructive and all, but the spells from the current magic lores for the other two Elf armies (the new High Magic and the Lore of Athel Loren) have a lot of subtlety and versatility to them which the Dark magic list sorely lacks.

Each of the other Elf lores is made up of a collection of further spell lores which best embody the army's personality as a whole.
The Lore of Athel Loren is made up of a combination of qualities from the Lore of Life (tree-huggers), Lore of Beasts (animal-friendly), Lore of Shadows (secretive/mysterious) and High Magic (former Ulthuanians).

The new High Magic list is made up of a combination of qualities from the Lore of Light (pure & noble), Lore of Heavens (scholarly guides), Lore of Fire (cleansing flames) and Lore of Metal (master enchanters) with some of High Magic's uniqueness thrown in.

Surely Dark magic should have qualities from Lore of Death (soul-sucking curses), Lore of Slaanesh (manipulation/domination), Necromancy (unnatural bargains) and High Magic (former Ulthuanians), with some kind of signature default spell like Drain Magic and Tree-Singing included?

It looks to me like the High Elves and Wood Elves have a variety of characterful spells to work with so that their mages can adapt to various situations which make them powerful, influential and a force to be reckoned with. Dark magic seems to be a little one-dimensional. Elves of all colours should have magic down to an art form, able to bend it to whatever purpose they wish and Sorceresses shouldn't miss out on that.

Presently, it's universally agreed that the Lore of Slaanesh is much more effective than Dark magic, and that shouldn't be the case.

According to BG Dark Magic is the pure essence of chaos unbound by the touch of one of the great 4 daemon gods. It's the essence on Chaos undivided so to speak. It's all the winds of magic togheter, and pools where acts of great evil are committed (Sylvania for example was polluted by Dark Magic long before the Von Carstein came).
Dark Magic is THE OPPOSITE of High magic: where Qhaysh is all the winds working in armony True Dhar is all the winds squashed togheter, the essence of pure destruction and evil.
So I do not think Dark magic should have something of High Magic, but more powers that destroy the enemy (DE should have the most destructive magic of all) , twists his mind and curses him.

Archmagus
15-11-2007, 13:43
According to BG Dark Magic is the pure essence of chaos unbound by the touch of one of the great 4 daemon gods. It's the essence on Chaos undivided so to speak. It's all the winds of magic togheter, and pools where acts of great evil are committed (Sylvania for example was polluted by Dark Magic long before the Von Carstein came).
Dark Magic is THE OPPOSITE of High magic: where Qhaysh is all the winds working in armony True Dhar is all the winds squashed togheter, the essence of pure destruction and evil.
So I do not think Dark magic should have something of High Magic, but more powers that destroy the enemy (DE should have the most destructive magic of all) , twists his mind and curses him. But the difference is, whereas Undead and Chaos-worshippers are all subjected to Dark magic (essentially victims to it), Sorceresses actively grab it, force it into submission using their incredible willpower and use its destructive energies in any way they see fit. They're the mistresses over the energy, not victims to it, and I think that they should be able to use it in more creative ways than making everyone scream and everything go boom. Like I said, they're Elves, and at the moment, their magic is the most un-Elfish out of the three Elf lores. It should look like Elves manipulating Chaos magic, not just Chaos magic.

suprememidgetoverlord
15-11-2007, 14:00
If they really want to do Malekith, just do him like Settra the imperishable, minimum 3000 pts...

His mother Morathi should be quite a hassle as well, and playable in smaller games.

Ethlorien
15-11-2007, 14:25
I'd hate to see Malekith go. One of the problems I have with the HE is there is no character for Finubar (yes, I know he's not a warrior to begin with). I enjoy an army where you can field the leader of that entire nation, and have included Malekith many times in my battles. To simply take him out of the game because' he's too powerful' I think is the wrong approach.
Beef him up and as long as his points are in line with his power, then I think he would be acceptable. For those not willing to pay the high cost, possibly give him an unmounted option too (save on dragon costs).
As Katinka said, I would like to see a Malekith that, when fielded, would have Tyrion and Teclic scrambling to combat him else he start levelling the weaker troops.

Finnigan2004
15-11-2007, 15:03
Hysteria, recrimination, and whining about unconfirmed rumors. So it begins (again). Only a matter of time before people start talking about the brokenness of the yet unreleased army. :cries:

Columind
15-11-2007, 15:15
DE need better hammer units, or more reliable ones...make COC and COK more reliable or the hydra faster or hitting harder, let beastmasters allow re-roll stupidity tests at 12'' or something. If that happens, at least hatred won't place so many (in our case precious) units facing imminent death from pursuing (since we depend on coordinated charges to get the win) when facing experienced opponents that know how to bait. Pursuing into forests, into devastating enemy units (namely HE that will strike you first anyway and not let you strike back => hatred is useless) or into odd positions or flanking traps.

Assassins should be placed in enemy units to disrupt enemy lines, should be able to get killing blow and poison and should be given a decent chance of getting away with it, or else they'll be fun to use during the only turn they survive, and therefore, useless.

Beastmasters should be given the ability to allow re-rolls on stupidity tests at 12'', a bit like a beast general. That would make them useful outside the obvious manticore role and having to take them to increase a beast army's reliability would be a fair trade for their bonus. Immagine a themed army with manticores, dragons and cold ones that don't go stupid...ahhh...the dream is alive.

Executioners should keep KB..it's their trademark. Besides, they are the equivalent to swordmasters in a DE army, and swordmasters just took a HUGE boost...take away killing blow and give them something less powerful or original and you're basically saying to all DE players: I like HE, DE not so much, so I'll make them less powerful and take away their few smart and original rules. Basically: "I'm a *****". - sorry, executioners are my favourite unit in almost all of WH, It's a touchy subject :P

The Hydra, even with regeneration and skirmishing movement, will still be a rare choice in the true sense of the word. Toughness 5, Strenght 5, large target and being vulnerable to losing crew and going nuts for 220 pts is still very far behind some other monsters in the game (stegadon, dragon ogre, etc). Give her Movement 7 (removing regeneration if necessary to keep point logic) and you got yourself a candidate, or else RBT's will always win.

The cauldron should be like a casket, but not take up a rare slot to be useful. Or else give a 5+ ward save to the witch elves (like a wood elf ward save) and give the re-rolls too. Maybe make it "shoot" or perform magic for each sacrifice, kind of like the casket or maybe the anvil.

Here's a thought: Why not give DE the chance to take slaves in ranks (from all sorts of races, maybe Humans or HE) in front of the army for each corsair unit taken? It would be a bit like skaven slaves, with "human" shields roles, that would allow an almost all toughness 3 army survive a bit longer against massive shooting and make infantry units a lot more efficient due to tactical flexibility of having cheap support, instead of just sticking them with any rule like HE ASF that throws tactics a bit out the window.

A Corsair or Witch Elf hero choice would be the cherry on top...;)

Of course they'd have to find a way to make the DE army a bit like the HE one...if you want all kinds of beasts and scary fast stuff you can't take a lot of infantry and vice-versa.

And maybe make more unit champions be able to take magic items also.

In the end, couple some imagination with some better magic and items, and you've got yourself a decent DE army.
Hatred is not the way IMO though...it would be taking the easy and obvious way, the path that spares GW from thinking about it a bit, and the path to making DE even harder to play with.

UberBeast
15-11-2007, 15:33
The DE rumors sound good to me, and I have to agree with Cavatore. Hatred is a double edged sword, but one which I find characterful and which adds to the game rather than detracts from it like AsF. It helps DE players with combat, but both sides need to think more than one turn in advance to see where the DE will be headed when they pursue.

As for the HE book, I'm happy that they put an end to the boring all cav armies and put an emphasis on foot units for a change. I doubt we will see much more shooting as the archer models are ugly and still overpriced pointwise.

I just wish they had actually tried to put an effort into the boring model range (5th edition models in particular), and am hoping to see a second wave releas before too long. How many armies out there are still playing with four units of 5th edition figures anyway?

silashand
15-11-2007, 15:41
Hello Gary,
i just reread the rules for hatred and overrun a little bit.
If the enemy charges his 5 chaos hounds into my spearelves, itīs quite probable that with hatred iīll kill all of them. As you only "overrun" in 7th if you yourself charged (unlike 6th edition where even the charged opponent got a chance to make an overrun move), thereīs no overrun move to be made.
Voila, steady battle line and free VP for the dark elves.

Except in reality that seldom happens. Unless all DE have multiple attacks, thus guaranteeing (sp?) you'll kill such small units, then it rarely works in practice. Executioners, Black Guard, etc. will still likely miss 1-2 attacks when charged and thus leave one hound behind. Even so, if they are so good as to be able to wipe them out, then it's still a simple matter for my opponent to up the numbers of his throwaway units slightly to achieve the balance necessary to insure there are some left alive at the end of combat. Sorry, but that argument really doesn't seem to hold water all factors considered. After all, chaos hounds (since they are the ones used in this example) are only 6pts each. I hardly think it would affect my opponent's battle plan to spend another 12 or so pts on a couple hounds to insure he can disrupt my entire battle plan.

Cheers, Gary

AUN'SHI
15-11-2007, 16:10
These are only my opnions please don't attact me :)

Granted these are all rumours so there is no reason to get mad just yet :p

However, make no mistake haveing an all wide hatred rule is not a very good rule imo and if thats gonna be the army wide rule for DE then they are just gonna be worse then the HE.

The only "logical rule" imo is for the DE to strike first why... because they have had HE training in the past (well im sure a few of them did) and now have an even rougher marshal training being under DE rule...

Having all posion attacks fluff wise it makse sense but it may be a little to crazy.... but if they get the all hatred rule please give them all posion attacks becasue the DE NEED something imo:evilgrin:

but again no need to get angry at any rumours as they are just that. We can only "hope" the DE are done right this time around..... Because make no mistake in the last edition they were ummm how should I put this..... no where near as competitive as any other armies... But the thats my opnion:angel:

Count Zero
15-11-2007, 16:57
maybe they could change the posion rules for to be weaker such as if you roll a 6 to hit you get +1 strength or +1 to wound or something.

Count Zero
15-11-2007, 17:00
alos they could make exec's a cross between lion warriors and swordmasters, maybe 2 attacks at str4 (+2). maybe losing killing blow but get strikes in I order, no good ve HE, but decent v everyone else.

i guess will have to see if they go the same way as HE and make BG, WE & Ex's all 15 points, although thats less than BG cost now and they still need a power boost! what on earth made GW think they were worth 16 points model.

Lord Raneus
15-11-2007, 17:29
Execs better keep GWs, those swords are awesome. Some of my favorite models. :)

Ethlorien
15-11-2007, 17:31
Okay, drop the executioner's KB ability if you must, but at least give them the option to ride dark War Lions.:)

AUN'SHI
15-11-2007, 18:03
Id like to see COK gain sea dragon cloaks... and maybe a rule like they have a beast master following in the back rank and while he is alive the cok ignore stupidy tests.

Corsaird need to be cooler give them reapearter pistols or somthing along those lines with some nice special rules.

Witch elves... I don't know what to do with them... keep them the same with a ward save..


PLEASE OH PLEASE FIX MALIKITH :cries:

a cool rule for client reguklar DE warriors would be have +1 attack only in the front rank due to their cool weapons

against the HE both armies attack in Iniative order there should be no reason why HE hit before DE imo

Dark riders and shades should get some fixes as well such as both are harder to hit by shooting due to their stealthy abilities... sorry no names for the ability coming to mind :P

I love regeneration for war hydra much needed imo

poision attacks for shooting awesome :) powerful though

new dark magic :)

and little tidbits here and there would be great :evilgrin:

Ender Shadowkin
15-11-2007, 18:11
Hatred with another name, like "Martial skillz", and not having to pursue b/c of their discipline might be acceptable.

How about Disdain, Dark Elves Hate all opponents and may always choose to not pursue defeated lesser races.

This gives them two bonuses in a clean way, the re-roll misses and now, due to their utter disregard for weaker races, they will never have to pursue someone they just crushed. That would put them in pretty good standing, points woudl have to be calibrated.

Perhaps Contempt for Life, would be a better name

Vs high elves they can compensate either through some items, or special unit rules. Personnally I prefer some sort of upgrade for Witch Elves (beguiling Musk) that makes all opponents (not immune to psych) strike last. Maybe just availble to the witch elve hero

Ludaman
15-11-2007, 18:19
I like Hatred for DE, it makes units really good, and characters damn damn good, even better than soa on high elf characters in my opinion. Just give DE a rule when fighting high elves they strike in initiative order... ta da problem solved.

Skeinsliver
15-11-2007, 19:12
Well, here are some of my ideas for what they’re worth:

As for the DE vs. HE army wide rule: I would begin with playtesting a "Eternal Hatred" / "Spite" rule combination, but the spite would need a 4+ roll on a D6 to work. I can see promise within those boundaries if worked around and/or tweaked a bit.

I'd like to see DE get more fear causing units - doesn't it seem fluffy that Witch Elves and Executioners should cause fear? From their fluff, I could see them scaring the hell out of most races; it would also go well with the new HE rule vs. DE that HE re-roll any psych tests. Witch elves should have a 5+ ward too because they lack armor and they ARE witches after-all, so they should have a magical enchantment.

Blackguard should get A2 and moved to special choices.

I think Corsairs are fine as is - maybe give them poison attacks, but I think that may be too much.

I'd like to see Hydras given regeneration and 2 counting as 1 rare choice (that will help balance against all the HE dragons we'll be seeing, and better demonstrate DE as the beast-tamers they are fluffed to be. If these happen, Hydras should be upped in pts to around 300pts or so because they'll be that much more powerful and worth it.

Not sure what to do about Executioner rules though. Maybe give them "Strike in I order" @15pts but keep the killing blow.

Cold-ones need to lose stupidity or be given an upgrade option to do so. I don’t think the CoK should get A2 (too much like copying HE DP), but the mount should get A2, especially since they seem to be going back to a more raptor-like appearance. With these upgrades and not losing the current Fear causing, I’d see the cost of CoK @ approximately 32pts with stupidity & 34-35pts without.

Shades could be upped in pts if they got some Manflayer "like" rules (I mean like, not exact, i.e. the RxB-pistol and poison shot rules IIRC).

As one of the possible upgrades for DE, has anyone else ever thought of making standard RxB to be able to shoot either 2 S3 multi-shots OR a single S4 shot? I've always thought that would be a great but subtle boost and fluffy. To be balanced, this upgrade would make RxB cost more – at least 2 pts more than current cost I’d think. 12pts for a DE warrior with the above mentioned RxB improvement and 4+ AS (and any DE army wide rules) seems about right.

Harpies definitely need something too make them more viable selections: rending attacks, poisoned attacks, cause fear are all worth trying out either individually or in combos. Don’t have the DE AB in front of me, but Harpies have A2, right? If not, than they should – without a pts increase.

PS - I don't want to see RxB getting poisoned shots however - just too much IMHO, even as a DE player. I also thin Dark Magic is pretty good as is; just increase some of the 18” ranges to 24” and maybe alter 1 spell (the 6” one comes to mind) is the most improvement the DE Lore needs. I’d rather see DE get access to more common Lores – basically, DE should be able to use Dark Magic and/or any of the common Lores except Life and Light.


My $.02….YMMV

Kellindel
15-11-2007, 19:14
Jeez,

GW are really into killing the game as it seems. Why dont they give DE just "Always Wounds" as were at it. To the point SoA brought the design spirit, I give WFB no more than 5 years at its gonna be as boring as 40k...

It's possible that when they say th DE will get something that would bring them on par with the HE, it could be a rule that only works against HE.

This is nothing but a rumor that is most likely not near to be close to being confirmed. Lets not get bind in a bunch yet. ;)


I'm sure they will be balanced vs. HE in the end, but that's not the issue.

Honestly I'm more worried about them being balanced against everyone, not just one specific race. What good is an army when it's true potential is only realized when you fight ONE race. I would rather have something that makes them good and balanced against everyone.

How are they going to do that??? I have no clue.

RipFlag
15-11-2007, 19:56
Honestly I'm more worried about them being balanced against everyone, not just one specific race. What good is an army when it's true potential is only realized when you fight ONE race. I would rather have something that makes them good and balanced against everyone.

How are they going to do that??? I have no clue.

I personally do not find that to be much of a big problem, already, my DE's do decent against other armies, i am no tactical genius but i can hold my own with the DE's. It will not take much to fix DE's against other armies,new magic, some cool shiny things, and a couple attacks to the elites, with Hatred, now you have things worth while. EG


2.) Getting to reroll missed hits on the 1st round of combat is statistically better than getting a +1 To Hit. For instance: A vanilla unit of Witch Elves with a front rank of 5 will get 15 attacks... and with hatred, will hit most foes with 13.33 attacks. Let me repeat that: 13.33 attacks. The To Hit roll is the most restricting bottleneck in the combat phase, because barring any special rules, we will almost always be hitting on either a 3, or a 4. Being able to statistically change the To Hit roll is a HUGE advantage, and in my mind, far outweighs the disadvantage of having a pursue a broken enemy once in a blue moon.
at http://www.druchii.net/viewtopic.php?t=52416

With hatred DE's are going to see alot more temple armies, especially with a re-roll to wound from the now possibly movable cauldron of blood. So all in all I am not worried at all about other armies.

Red
15-11-2007, 20:44
I think a Witch Elf rule Intoxicating Beauty would be very fluffy, and offer them a form of protection in combat the SoA gives the High Elf elites. It would cause their enemies to strike either in I order, or strike last.

Props to whoever mentioned the witchelf change above me somewhere.

Scactha
15-11-2007, 21:13
Whataver happens ANY change is most likely for the good. Iīm ok with the whole army alongside a CoB rerolling both to hit and to wound...totally ok.

Tastyfish
15-11-2007, 21:59
I really don't like the sound of this at all, which means its probably true sadly enough. I don't think hatred fits the Dark Elves at all that well, especially when you look at the other units with it which have it as 'mini-frenzy', it dilutes the relationship between the High and Dark elves as well. I think the Spite rule that was suggested in the various SoA threads worked far better in capturing the feel of the race, counteracting SoA perfectly and helping with the classic elven fragility in a different way to the High and Wood elves.

I really think that they are underestimating the negative impact of hatred as well, its really not that hard to set up the situations that people are worried about - and hatred just makes this easier for the opponent. More importantly, combined with stupid heavy cavalry and frenzied elites - the character of the Dark elf army is now one that is very hard to control, hardly the elite and disciplined facists they are supposed to be.

Still, its a fair way off so there is time for playtesters to start complaining about always been led around by the nose.

MildlyAbrasive
15-11-2007, 22:21
/sigh

Spite is a terrible rule. It's specifically designed to counter ASF and has much less utility against any army that doesn't ASF. So then, how do you propose you price that ability for each model. If you price it like ASF, then DEs will be balanced against HEs. However, unlike HEs who have an AWR that helps them against any opponent, more or less, DEs are now stuck with an AWR that's only really significant against HEs. This means every DE will be priced like a HE, but significantly less powerful against non-HE armies. If you take the other route, and you price the ability according to it's usefulness against non ASF armies, then DEs are now heinously more powerful when facing HEs, and now that match-up is imbalanced.

In conclusion, anti-ASF AWRs are TERRIBLE!!! Dark Elves need something that is equivalent in power to ASF, but is in no way related to ASF.

Tastyfish
15-11-2007, 23:03
Its not just a fix for high elves' SoA, that is just the extreme end of a problem that plagues all the elves - that they are expensive yet easy to kill. As for pointing, SoA is disproportionately good against HE and DE as is it - you can't tell me that its just as good against T4, 3+ armour Black Orcs or Chosen as it is against witchelves or wardancers (the latter being one of the most feared units in the game far as any other army is concerned, but a joke against the HE). That spite is particularly good against the HE (to the extent that the two become balanced against each other, fight in 3 ranks rule aside, rather than like the current HE/DE match up) isn't an issue. The High elves do still benefit from SoA against Spiteful DE as they become slightly better at recieving a charge whilst the dark elves benefit more than they would usually do but only because they would suffer far more than other armies would if they didn't have it.

Against other armies, its a slightly different way of making the Dark elves a bit more durable (and give their core spears staying power) whilst keeping it distinct form the high elves. They won't behave in the same way as whilst the rules are very similar the outcomes are quite different. Plus its very easy to implement, there is no book keeping required nor does it add any extra rolls (an armywide hatred Temple army is going to have combat phases that last twice as long as everyone elses).

In conclusion - Spite fixes the Druchii's biggest weakness, that their large infantry blocks lack the staying power to operate as they should (and that they will get utterly slaughtered by High elves in close combat). It does also boost the MSU units, but doesn't really extend their lifespan since any casulties in these small units is significant. The only drawback is really that it works better against a rule that works overly well against them in the first place.

Venkh
15-11-2007, 23:05
Do you really want your chariots to be forced to pursue enemy units into woods?

Do you want your elite infantry to be forced to pursue skaven tunnellers towards your own table edge?

Do you want your dragon lord to be forced to pursue units even if it means he flies into the path of a dwarven gunline?

Do you want your cold one knights to be forced to pursue an eagle across the path of the rest of your army?

Do you want your units to pursue off the table in the last turn of the game, denying you that table quarter?

Do you want your stoic spearmen to rush stupidly forward after a few goblins leaving their defended obstacle behind?

Do you want to pursue an enemy in the last turn even if it means surrendering a scenario objective to an opponent?

The sooner this horrible rumor goes away the better but as others have already said, it just stupid enough to be true.:wtf:

theunwantedbeing
15-11-2007, 23:22
Of course the comeback to that is simply
"well dont charge if thats what will happen, shoot/magic them instead"

Im not advocating hatred Im merely being on both sides and giving a fair outlook on things.

Lord Raneus
15-11-2007, 23:24
Of course the comeback to that is simply
"well dont charge if thats what will happen, shoot/magic them instead"

Im not advocating hatred Im merely being on both sides and giving a fair outlook on things.

Of course, the comeback to that is simply,
"Damned if you do, damned if you don't."

We can't charge for fear of being pulled out of position horribly, but neither can we let ourselves be charged, because we're T3 with a crap AS. So what exactly do you propose we do if we want to field an army that isn't all MSU shooty and magic?:confused:

Venkh
15-11-2007, 23:31
"well dont charge if thats what will happen, shoot/magic them instead"

I dont know about you but i dont always have that option, especially at the end of the game. Besides, i want to use shooting and magic according to my own plan, not to thwart my opponets attempt to get my cold one knights to chase after an oversized budgie.

Furthermore, many of those examples work whether you are giving or receiving the charge (and yes, i already know which ones are the exceptions).

Ultimately Hatred requires the DE general to be a better player than his opponent who's army will almost always have its own nasty special rules - without drawbacks.

Varath- Lord Impaler
15-11-2007, 23:59
I dont know about you but i dont always have that option, especially at the end of the game. Besides, i want to use shooting and magic according to my own plan, not to thwart my opponets attempt to get my cold one knights to chase after an oversized budgie.

Furthermore, many of those examples work whether you are giving or receiving the charge (and yes, i already know which ones are the exceptions).

Ultimately Hatred requires the DE general to be a better player than his opponent who's army will almost always have its own nasty special rules - without drawbacks.

What about the times when your cold one knights charge through one unit, use hatred to demolish them, overrun into the next unit (which has some furies in the front so they can fight again) and then overruns into the next unit?

Hatred isnt just bad, you know.

MildlyAbrasive
16-11-2007, 00:29
What about the times when your cold one knights charge through one unit, use hatred to demolish them, overrun into the next unit (which has some furies in the front so they can fight again) and then overruns into the next unit?

Hatred isnt just bad, you know.

What exactly are you planning to overrun here... a unit of 4 spearmen?

Varath- Lord Impaler
16-11-2007, 00:42
What exactly are you planning to overrun here... a unit of 4 spearmen?

Knights in the flank, of course.

Throwing knights into the front of an enemy unit is just stupid.

You put something small and unable to win into the front to keep an enemy unit pinned such as a regenerating hydra. Using beasts to hold them in place and then Hitting flanks with strong units is tactics.

MildlyAbrasive
16-11-2007, 01:55
Knights in the flank, of course.

Throwing knights into the front of an enemy unit is just stupid.

You put something small and unable to win into the front to keep an enemy unit pinned such as a regenerating hydra. Using beasts to hold them in place and then Hitting flanks with strong units is tactics.

You were talking about wiping out a unit though. That's the only way you get an overrun charge. It doesn't matter if you hit the front, flank or back, you still have to wipe out every model in the unit.

Palatine Katinka
16-11-2007, 02:06
My Cold One Knights once killed 15 spearmen in one round. Do you really have to be that pedantic or did you really not think he might mean pursue?

Varath- Lord Impaler
16-11-2007, 02:46
Ah thank you Palatine Katinka :D

I use Dwarfs in fantasy, so i get the terms mixed up. Anyway "overrun" sounds like "Running over" which is what i imagine my Dwarfs doing to fleeing Troops

Dranthar
16-11-2007, 05:28
Hatred is lame

ASF is too good.

I want a pony.


Does this mean that we're going to have another 6+ months where people whine about rumours they've never actually seen, know the full rules for or played with?

I'm getting back to work (but I still want that pony).

silashand
16-11-2007, 06:22
My Cold One Knights once killed 15 spearmen in one round. Do you really have to be that pedantic or did you really not think he might mean pursue?

Funny, I've never even come close to that with my CoKs and I field them all the time. Usually they account for *maybe* 3-4 casualties. Overall I find them pretty lame as they are. Besides, 50% of the time they fail a stupidity check when I need them to charge. I will *never* agree that stupidity is appropriate in the DE list. I don't care how anyone justifies it, an army such as the DE would never use an unstable unit IMO.

Cheers, Gary

Dranthar
16-11-2007, 06:38
Because I'm avoiding doing real work; :D


Funny, I've never even come close to that with my CoKs and I field them all the time.
I don't believe anybody said 15 kills was the norm. In fact, it's quite irrelevant to anything in this thread really.


Besides, 50% of the time they fail a stupidity check when I need them to charge.
Your case is not helped by over-exageration (and spelling does not help mine! ;) )


I will *never* agree that stupidity is appropriate in the DE list. I don't care how anyone justifies it, an army such as the DE would never use an unstable unit IMO.
I think (or at least hope) we can all agree that stupidity doesn't really seem to fit into an elite list like the Dark Elves.

silashand
16-11-2007, 06:41
Your case is not helped by over-exageration (and spelling does not help mine! ;) )

You think I'm kidding, I'm not. The last game I played with them lasted only three turns. I had two chariots and 1 unit of CoKs for a total of 9 stupidity checks in that time. Of those I failed *5*, well over 50%. I know perhaps I am atypical, but this is generally the norm for me whenever I use units subject to stupidity in my DE.

Cheers, Gary

Scactha
16-11-2007, 09:26
Iīd hate being a GW rules designer. When they make ASF everyone BUT HE whines. When they suggest Hatred for DE THEY whine. Thatīs the only constant...whining.

Itīs especially weird since Witch Elves are ususally considered one of the better choices in DE...a unit that gives you even less control!

lakissov
16-11-2007, 09:58
@Scactha:
the perception that witches are considered on of the better choices is wrong
personally I never use them. ever.
i prefer my chariot for doing damage: more reliable (despite stupidity), more resilient (T5 AS4+), higher strength, higher movement rate, more manoeuvrability. ok, a bit less attacks, but not so many are really needed.
I'd say, witches as they are now are very far from being good.

(although, on a side note, I have already accepted the fact that we are getting hatred. it's sad news, of course, but I will try to overcome this inherent handicap and use the benefit to its fullest)

ganymed
16-11-2007, 10:56
Cavatore agreed DE assassins are too weak for their point cost and hinted they may get major improvements. .

This is quite fine as I seldom used assassins.

So we know the point cost will roughly be the same (and assassins will still be character choices- heroes).
I think a first improvement might be to give them "always strike first" as a special rule, at least to make them viable against HE.

I think they should be good vs characters and not that good against monsters/cavalry etc.

Maybe weīll see some rule that their attacks ignore armour saves in a challenge / when fighting characters ?

Thommy H
16-11-2007, 13:09
Do you really want your chariots to be forced to pursue enemy units into woods?

Do you want your elite infantry to be forced to pursue skaven tunnellers towards your own table edge?

Do you want your dragon lord to be forced to pursue units even if it means he flies into the path of a dwarven gunline?

Do you want your cold one knights to be forced to pursue an eagle across the path of the rest of your army?

Do you want your units to pursue off the table in the last turn of the game, denying you that table quarter?

Do you want your stoic spearmen to rush stupidly forward after a few goblins leaving their defended obstacle behind?

Do you want to pursue an enemy in the last turn even if it means surrendering a scenario objective to an opponent?

The sooner this horrible rumor goes away the better but as others have already said, it just stupid enough to be true.:wtf:

You know you get to re-roll missed hits in the first round of combat, right?

There's an awful lot of focus on the disadvantages of Hatred in this thread. Unless Dwarfs are completely broken against Orcs and Goblins (and, logically, they should be even more affected by having to pursue all the time since they're a static force that are best when they stay in one place and stick to the plan) then having to pursue isn't that big a deal - especially since Dark Elves are that much more likely to totally splat their opponents now anyway!

Dragonics
16-11-2007, 13:09
Personally I think that the EH against HE will be good and the hatred against all could be good if it was tweeked slightly, along the lines of DE choose whether to chase or not. After all they are hundres to thousands of years old and will have learnt to control some of their blood lust. That way you get some balance in that you dont just have your army running off and being swamped, but an army that may run off manically if you want to.

I also agree with an earlier post about cold ones being given frenzy but have their stupidity still, except if they fail they rush forward instead of stand about grazing.

Beefing up the magic will be good, its ok as is but not what could be seen as 'deadly' in all cases.

Stronger or cheaper assasins? count me in, there strong already but being stronger or cheaper is even better (lord version maybe?).

- Human
16-11-2007, 13:50
Does this mean that we're going to have another 6+ months where people whine about rumours they've never actually seen, know the full rules for or played with?


You say this as if there's an alternative.

Stezerok
16-11-2007, 14:18
Wow... I'm really disappointed with the maturity of this thread... I'm a Chaos player with a friend who plays DE. We often do very well against each other, and I wouldn't consider many of the DE options to be underpowered. The funny thing is though, is that I can remember hearing about how Dark Elves were so superior, and their players were the brightest tactical minds in the game. Now this might be a slight exaggeration, but I really can't believe that I just read 6 pages of DE players whining. A real tactician would accept what they get handed and try and look for ways to optimize it in spite of the obvious disadvantage. Apparently some of you lot are too busy coveting the HE's and their shiny new ASF and how much better it is than your Army Wide Hatred, and have completely forgotten how to play the game. I would tell you to cry to someone who cares, but I doubt very much that you'd find one, but in the mean time I will say that why don't you wait till the codex comes out to see how well your army has improved or not, and really try taking the army you love and using it to the best of your ability. AND STOP RAGGIN ON GW. It's hard enough as it is trying to design an army for a bunch of whiny little 3rd graders who are never happy with what they get, let alone trying to make the army balanced.

As for Hellebore and the others that have defended DE's thus far, well I give you kudos. It's not easy to defend something in the face of brutal stupidity, and unhelpful criticism.

Johan Chill
16-11-2007, 15:14
Wow... I'm really disappointed with the maturity of this thread... I'm a Chaos player with a friend who plays DE. We often do very well against each other, and I wouldn't consider many of the DE options to be underpowered. The funny thing is though, is that I can remember hearing about how Dark Elves were so superior, and their players were the brightest tactical minds in the game. Now this might be a slight exaggeration, but I really can't believe that I just read 6 pages of DE players whining. A real tactician would accept what they get handed and try and look for ways to optimize it in spite of the obvious disadvantage. Apparently some of you lot are too busy coveting the HE's and their shiny new ASF and how much better it is than your Army Wide Hatred, and have completely forgotten how to play the game. I would tell you to cry to someone who cares, but I doubt very much that you'd find one, but in the mean time I will say that why don't you wait till the codex comes out to see how well your army has improved or not, and really try taking the army you love and using it to the best of your ability. AND STOP RAGGIN ON GW. It's hard enough as it is trying to design an army for a bunch of whiny little 3rd graders who are never happy with what they get, let alone trying to make the army balanced.

As for Hellebore and the others that have defended DE's thus far, well I give you kudos. It's not easy to defend something in the face of brutal stupidity, and unhelpful criticism.

Amen brother.

Akuma
16-11-2007, 15:58
First of all DE are not the best warriors in the whole world - HE are ... ( it's writen in the new book :chrome:)

Second - this two armys now HAVE A CHANCE to play diffrently for the very first time in history and not be a mirror image of one another ... HE static force with great infantry and DE fastest units in the game great when they charge and able to pick combats as they like and direct the flow of the battle.

As HE AND DE player i would LOVE to see hatred as army wide rule ... imagine what it would mean for the witches ... assasins ... nobles ... cok ... it would only SLIGHTLY less of getting a second attack FOR THE WHOLE ARMY ... people wake up for god sake - they are giving you so much power and yet you whine "i have to persue" ... As every one with clear minds says - if someone dedicates his unit to this he should be able to get the bonus ...

bdickj
16-11-2007, 17:25
Eh, who gives a damn? GW will destroy the DE just as they did in 6th.

AUN'SHI
16-11-2007, 17:28
Wow... I'm really disappointed with the maturity of this thread... I'm a Chaos player with a friend who plays DE. We often do very well against each other, and I wouldn't consider many of the DE options to be underpowered. The funny thing is though, is that I can remember hearing about how Dark Elves were so superior, and their players were the brightest tactical minds in the game. Now this might be a slight exaggeration, but I really can't believe that I just read 6 pages of DE players whining. A real tactician would accept what they get handed and try and look for ways to optimize it in spite of the obvious disadvantage. Apparently some of you lot are too busy coveting the HE's and their shiny new ASF and how much better it is than your Army Wide Hatred, and have completely forgotten how to play the game. I would tell you to cry to someone who cares, but I doubt very much that you'd find one, but in the mean time I will say that why don't you wait till the codex comes out to see how well your army has improved or not, and really try taking the army you love and using it to the best of your ability. AND STOP RAGGIN ON GW. It's hard enough as it is trying to design an army for a bunch of whiny little 3rd graders who are never happy with what they get, let alone trying to make the army balanced.

As for Hellebore and the others that have defended DE's thus far, well I give you kudos. It's not easy to defend something in the face of brutal stupidity, and unhelpful criticism.

Ok Whining is not good we can all agree upon this... However, I believe people are entitled to their own opnion your opnion is no better than anyone elses so just let people do what they'd like to do.

Now to the DE... The rumours that are going around seems to be Hatred to all, and/or poision weapons imo hatred to all is not a good rule... remember imo... posion weapons is a strong rule (really strong) but you know what if and I'm sayin "if" the DE get a race wide hatred, then imo give them all posion weapons... Why? you may ask because the DE need a rule that stands out and makes them actually competitive.

I'm not a fan of hatredto all, at all imo it dosen't make to much sense with the DE I mean why would they hate everyone? HE ok but everyone....

The assasins definatly need a change they are just as expensive as a lord.... which would you rather have a lord and a hero or a lord and an assasin... me personally lord and hero is waaaaay better so I hope the assasins are decrease drastically in points 60-80pts or 100 pts with crazy rules..

I'm loving the rumour of war hydra gettin regeneration if this is true Id actually feild a war hydra... but until they get that rule id will not in no way use them.

oh and again please change Malikith rules/model plz:angel:

AUN'SHI
16-11-2007, 17:44
As HE AND DE player i would LOVE to see hatred as army wide rule ... imagine what it would mean for the witches ... assasins ... nobles ... cok ... it would only SLIGHTLY less of getting a second attack FOR THE WHOLE ARMY ... people wake up for god sake - they are giving you so much power and yet you whine "i have to persue" ... As every one with clear minds says - if someone dedicates his unit to this he should be able to get the bonus ...


Ok.... re-roll attack in the 1st round of combat and have to persue vs ASF which would choose??? let me tell you hands down ASF imo.

now don't get me wrong getting to re-roll attacks is good but it has a draw back... ASF is good with no draw back...

And really what good is re-roll attack when your guys are already dead?? lets do it shall we... a unit of HE spear elves gets charged or charges DE spear elves let me tell you what hatered is going to do in that case.... nothing notta zip why? you may ask cause they will all be dead before they get a chance to use their rule.

Now let take this away from the HE.. lets say a unit of beast men charges a unit of executionars and lets say they kill 1 guy and the champ challanges now there are 3 guys left I mean how big will that be? in probability you may kill 1/2 guys... this will work the same way againt humans also..

Now if the DE charges lets use the EX again.. 6 attacks against beast men needing 3's to hit 3's to damage... 5 hit lets say 3/4 damage you "might" break that unit and now you have no choice but to persue. To the left is another unit of beast mean and its their turn next... your done. This will work similar against any other armies unless they have heavier armour then you'll probably kill less then..

Hatered could leave you open and the DE don't exactly haver the best save or T for that...

But this is only what I think:)

Baindread
16-11-2007, 17:57
Wow... I'm really disappointed with the maturity of this thread... I'm a Chaos player with a friend who plays DE. We often do very well against each other, and I wouldn't consider many of the DE options to be underpowered. The funny thing is though, is that I can remember hearing about how Dark Elves were so superior, and their players were the brightest tactical minds in the game. Now this might be a slight exaggeration, but I really can't believe that I just read 6 pages of DE players whining. A real tactician would accept what they get handed and try and look for ways to optimize it in spite of the obvious disadvantage. Apparently some of you lot are too busy coveting the HE's and their shiny new ASF and how much better it is than your Army Wide Hatred, and have completely forgotten how to play the game. I would tell you to cry to someone who cares, but I doubt very much that you'd find one, but in the mean time I will say that why don't you wait till the codex comes out to see how well your army has improved or not, and really try taking the army you love and using it to the best of your ability. AND STOP RAGGIN ON GW. It's hard enough as it is trying to design an army for a bunch of whiny little 3rd graders who are never happy with what they get, let alone trying to make the army balanced.

As for Hellebore and the others that have defended DE's thus far, well I give you kudos. It's not easy to defend something in the face of brutal stupidity, and unhelpful criticism.

An expected response from a Chaos player.

donuter
16-11-2007, 18:31
hey brain dead wat army are you by any chance (elves?)

Mouldsta
16-11-2007, 18:48
I couldn't care less if we get an army wide rule or not, I don't think it's overly needed. What DE's DO need though is some good rules to go with the background. Currently DE's are suppossed to be a brutal race who don't bat an eyelid about assassinating people, and have spent centuries mastering their beast taming skills, and plan each attack with ruthless effeciency (not caring if their comrades die).

Why then do we have useless assassins who are nothing more than a point sink, the worst beasts/beast tamers in the game, and all the heavy hitters have stupidity? That (and the fact that elite infantry are meh in 7th) is what's wrong with DE's.

The reason I think most people are complaining about hatred is that it won't boost the units that need boosting. All the fast units when presented with an enemy unit infront of them can go around said unit. Infantry can't - it's charge or be charged. This then leads to the hatred->persue problem. Hatred will make the units that are already being used better, but won't actually go anyway towards making people want to use the units that are currently overlooked.

Thommy H
16-11-2007, 19:09
Ok.... re-roll attack in the 1st round of combat and have to persue vs ASF which would choose??? let me tell you hands down ASF IMO.

Haha, that's such a false dilemma.

"Would you rather have a WS 2 Goblin or a WS 10 Bloodthirster???"

Of course the better ability is better - but things cost different points values so that it evens out when you look at the army as a whole. Pretty much everyone complaining in this thread is acting like High Elves and Dark Elves exist in some kind of vacuum and their abilities should only be rated against each other.

malisteen
16-11-2007, 19:09
As a frail, espensive, force, dark elves are a precision army. They require control, and punish a player who makes even slight mistakes. That's why Cold Ones and witch elves are looked down upon at the moment: an army so unforgiving of mistakes cannot afford a unit that will make its own mistakes for you. Universal hatred seems ready to apply the problems with these units to the entire army, and unless dark elves on the whole get a lot more durable, or a lot less costly points-wise, it could be a heavy blow to an army that is already considered one of the weakest out there.

Looks like I'm going to have to keep looking for a fantasy army I can live with. Style is important, but I don't want an army with rules that punish me for playing them, leading to games that are more frustrating then exciting.

AUN'SHI
16-11-2007, 19:22
Haha, that's such a false dilemma.

"Would you rather have a WS 2 Goblin or a WS 10 Bloodthirster???"

Of course the better ability is better - but things cost different points values so that it evens out when you look at the army as a whole. Pretty much everyone complaining in this thread is acting like High Elves and Dark Elves exist in some kind of vacuum and their abilities should only be rated against each other.

I can see your point. However, I was mearly wondering for a whole army rule which would you rather have an ability that is good or an ability that is good but also has a draw back... Hense the comparison ;)

This comparison is a little different than a WS 2 gobbo and a WS10 bloodthirster... now if point are gonna come into play.. The HE spearelf is 9 pts... so by point logic the DE should be...7 pts??? If that be the case then wooohooo but realisticly speaking thats probably not gonna happen.

Urgat
16-11-2007, 19:32
Mmmh, hatred.
I don't know, it seems, well, a boring rule. That's my only opinion on the subject for now. That's just not, you know... exciting? Like they put some existing rules on a table, rolled a couple D6 and chose the result. I'd rather have a new rule for them, an army wide rule should be, well, specific to this army.
Well, imho. Not that my opinion has much value I suppose.

Thommy H
16-11-2007, 19:46
I can see your point. However, I was mearly wondering for a whole army rule which would you rather have an ability that is good or an ability that is good but also has a draw back... Hense the comparison ;)

This comparison is a little different than a WS 2 gobbo and a WS10 bloodthirster... now if point are gonna come into play.. The HE spearelf is 9 pts... so by point logic the DE should be...7 pts??? If that be the case then wooohooo but realisticly speaking thats probably not gonna happen.

I don't know if there'll be anything like a direct points comparison like that - ASF is not as powerful as everyone thinks it is, so there wasn't a points hike, and similarly I think the advantages of hatred are balanced by its disadvantages, so there isn't likely to be a drop either.

The point is rather that you can't just say "High Elves have something better so hatred is broken" - there's a lot of talk about how Dark Elves need something to counteract ASF but I've yet to see a compelling reason apart from "they're also T3".

Dominatrix
16-11-2007, 20:22
"High Elves have something better so hatred is broken"

No one said hatred is broken. What people said was ASF is clearly a huge buff while hatred is a small buff bundled together with a disadvantage. Hatred's drawback coupled with stupidity creates an army that will suffer tactically against any opponent with an IQ higher than that of a vegetable. How can you make plans if your units fail to charge when you want them, pursue when you don't want them AND you don't have the resilience to survive and correct your shortcomings?
I fail to see how rerolling hits will help me win combat when I am dead before I get to use it. Here is a scenario for you. Executioners charge a unit of swordmasters. They are both elite units both designed to kill stuff, not function as a anvil. Can you honestly stand there and keep a straight face when you tell me that the SM ASF is equal to executioners' hatred? :rolleyes:
The executioners, whether they charge or not will be butchered. The DE player will probably lose the whole front rank. And then hatred comes in effect and does... NOTHING. If you think hatred is so cool maybe HE should get hatred and DE ASF. But i guess it is one of those cases where one kiddie got a brand new toy (in this case HE got ASF) and they don't want to share with the other kiddies! :o


there's a lot of talk about how Dark Elves need something to counteract ASF but I've yet to see a compelling reason apart from "they're also T3".

Funny but T3 and 5+ saves were the only reasons HE players used to justify ASF. "Makes their infantry more viable they said". DE have exactly the same problems with 6th edition HE so yes they need something to counteract it.

AUN'SHI
16-11-2007, 20:25
The point is rather that you can't just say "High Elves have something better so hatred is broken" - there's a lot of talk about how Dark Elves need something to counteract ASF but I've yet to see a compelling reason apart from "they're also T3".

The DE who were once HE before hand, had the same/similar training that the HE did. They are just as old as well. There are many similarities between the two. Sword masters/Executioners. HE spear elves DE spear elves. HE RBT DE RBT. The list can keep going. By all right the DE should also have the ASF rule or it can be stateted that the HE are just better trained which imo is not the case.

Hatred is not broken. It's just not a decent rule for the DE why would a DE hate a gobbo.. I mean I'm sure he dosen't like the lil guy but why would it drive the DE in a rage that one is there? I'm pretty sure DE have some trade with humans or somthing and if they hated them also they would have no trade at all.. Hatred for the whole army to everything just dosent make sense.. Image in DE fighting a undead bat oh no a undead bat I hate that so much for Khaine attack ATTACK!!!!!!! The rage builds up soooooo much that they have to kill that undead bat:eyebrows: ummm can't really see it. The DE would look down upon it and kill it without him going into a rage of hate.

Thommy H
16-11-2007, 20:46
Sorry, I didn't realise that Dark Elves could only fight High Elves.

AUN'SHI
16-11-2007, 20:58
Sorry, I didn't realise that Dark Elves could only fight High Elves.

I'm not really sure what you mean by that:confused:

DE can fight anyone but training wise there should be some similarities..espically something like ASF I mean it's an army wide rule.

DE should have the same army wide rule and then their own unit special rules but that is my own opnion.

Thommy H
16-11-2007, 21:00
I was mostly talking to Dominatrix, all of whose examples of how hatred was a bad idea explicitly compared the Dark Elves to High Elves, as if they're only allowed to fight each other.

Kaihlik
16-11-2007, 21:22
Why shouldn't they be able to fight High Elves. Hatred is not good enough to fix the problems Dark Elves have. They were very similar problems to the High Elves, Elite, Low T, Low Sv troops that couldn't make their points back. To counter that High Elves got a special rule which changed the situation so that those problem units became kickass and didn't really pay the points for that ability.

In order to make the Dark Elves competetive they need a similar treatment. Im not expecting a rule of the same magnitude of ASF (mainly because I think it is the most powerful special rule they could have got) but Hatred is a joke. Rerolling to hit on the charge and having to persue may win us the odd fight but more often than not it will have little effect and then force us to persue into a trap.

I personally would like to see DE getting +1 attack on the charge as I feel that it would encourage them to be played in the manner they should, aggressively. It doesn't change the feel of the army much but allows those elite units to finally make their points back on the charge which is what they are meant to do. Anyway I will probably get moaned at for wanting a cheesy special rule but I stole it off D.net so I don't care.

Thommy H
16-11-2007, 21:54
Why shouldn't they be able to fight High Elves.

I'm not suggesting they shouldn't be able to fight High Elves, I'm just pointing out that talking about whatever rule the Dark Elves might get solely in relation to ASF seems pretty silly - Dark Elf armies will not face High Elves exclusively, and will be no more vulnerable to the not-that-powerful-after-all ASF than any other T3 army. And, of course, with hatred they'll be that much better.

What I'm getting at is that not only is ASF not game breaking (as numerous threads reporting actual play have attested) but that there's no particular reason that Dark Elves should have a rule that specifically counteracts it.

Freenut
16-11-2007, 21:57
Figured I would point out a couple of things that seem to be getting lost.
1) I believe it was said that this will be ONE of the new rules for DE, but not the only one.
2) Everyone who is going on about "DE don't hate goblins so why would they get hatred against them" you are right to a point. I would bet the rule would not be called hatred but something along the lines of "racial superiority: DE believe they are better than all other races" The rule would more or less work like hatred but for all you fluff monkeys out there, thee is justification built in. Kind of like the stupidity for COK. Cold ones are not stupid per say, but are hard to control, thus the rule.
3) I do not care how you look at it, hatred is a an advantage. Granted one a clever player can use against you but an advantage none the less. If you don't want your opponent to use it against you stop him and exploit his weaknesses. And if you don't like the fact that your army has this flaw or feel you can't guard against it, maybe DE is not the army for you.
4) The army is at least 7 months away. Might be a bit early to talk about how GW is f-ing it up and/ or how broken it is.

Just my thoughts, take it for what is worth.

Palatine Katinka
16-11-2007, 22:03
Funny, I've never even come close to that with my CoKs and I field them all the time. Usually they account for *maybe* 3-4 casualties. Overall I find them pretty lame as they are. Besides, 50% of the time they fail a stupidity check when I need them to charge. I will *never* agree that stupidity is appropriate in the DE list. I don't care how anyone justifies it, an army such as the DE would never use an unstable unit IMO.

Cheers, Gary

They had the BSB with Hydra banner in there. Extra attack for each rider and cold one makes a mess. Also, I was fighting High Elves so the Hatred helped. This was before they got ASF but I don't think it would've been much different if he'd thrown some S 3 attacks at the knights. On the matter of pursuit, it took the knights off the table, avoiding a flank shot from two bolt throwers.

I've heard rumour that cold one will be losing Stupidity. Something along the lines of someone spotting the forthcoming models and saying "They don't look stupid." and getting the reply "Yeah, well, maybe they won't be."

Catpipe
16-11-2007, 22:50
Have any of you actually played with the new high elves or the old dark elves? This isnt even theoryhammer its whining about a rule that doesnt exist yet and may nevery exist.

I think rumour threads should be limited to 4 or 5 replies and thats it everything else after that is a complete waste of time and if you want to have an arugment about toy soldiers do it in the general forum or even better - not at all

Ethlorien
16-11-2007, 23:46
I was just reading through the 7th ed rulebook, and if you go to pg. 168, 2nd paragraph, it says 'the DE are the most hate-filled and implacable of foes'. That's a pretty bold statement. I'm not saying I like the Hatred army wide rule myself, but with what the rulebook says it would fit.

silashand
17-11-2007, 01:19
3) I do not care how you look at it, hatred is a an advantage.

It may be, but it is so far one of the *only* potential army wide rules with a built-in disadvantage as well:

Dwarfs: relentless (no disadvantage)
HE: Speed of Asuryan (no disadvantage)
O&G: Waaagh (no disadvantage)
Empire: Detachments (no disadvantage)
Wood Elves: Move & shoot without penalty (no disadvantage)
Bretonnians: blessing (disadvantage - giving up first turn, easily outweighed by army-wide ward save)
Beastment: raiders (disadvantage - max rank bonus +2, easily outweighed by skirmishing abilities)
Lizardmen: Cold blooded (no disadvantage)
Chaos: Marks? Variable army construction? None are actually an army-wide rule per se
Ogres: Bull charge (disadvantage, can be negated)
Tomb Kings: Cause fear, ItP, reliable magic (disadvantage, no IF and random power level, cannot march, undead rule)
Vampire Counts: Cause fear, ItP (disadvantage, undead rule)
Dark Elves: none at present

Sorry, but most army-wide rules are meant to provide a decent advantage to the army even if there are some disadvantages. Hatred does not meet that crtiteria IMO as the ability to reroll to hit *once* per combat is pretty limited considering the low strength of most attacks in the DE army. IMO the liabilities of hatred far outweigh any potential advantages.

Cheers, Gary

Skinnydookie
17-11-2007, 02:08
Waaagh = no disadvantage? What about the potentially crippling wounds on cavalry units? Also you dont have to use it. Animosity is the real army wide rule for O&G and as anyone will tell you it has large diasadvantages at times.

Freenut
17-11-2007, 02:32
It may be, but it is so far one of the *only* potential army wide rules with a built-in disadvantage as well:

Dwarfs: relentless (no disadvantage)
HE: Speed of Asuryan (no disadvantage)
O&G: Waaagh (no disadvantage)
Empire: Detachments (no disadvantage)
Wood Elves: Move & shoot without penalty (no disadvantage)
Bretonnians: blessing (disadvantage - giving up first turn, easily outweighed by army-wide ward save)
Beastment: raiders (disadvantage - max rank bonus +2, easily outweighed by skirmishing abilities)
Lizardmen: Cold blooded (no disadvantage)
Chaos: Marks? Variable army construction? None are actually an army-wide rule per se
Ogres: Bull charge (disadvantage, can be negated)
Tomb Kings: Cause fear, ItP, reliable magic (disadvantage, no IF and random power level, cannot march, undead rule)
Vampire Counts: Cause fear, ItP (disadvantage, undead rule)
Dark Elves: none at present

Sorry, but most army-wide rules are meant to provide a decent advantage to the army even if there are some disadvantages. Hatred does not meet that crtiteria IMO as the ability to reroll to hit *once* per combat is pretty limited considering the low strength of most attacks in the DE army. IMO the liabilities of hatred far outweigh any potential advantages.

Cheers, Gary

True but that is kind of the point. Armies list needto have disadvantes built in to the list. Or that some armies need rules to make them more competitive. Further in some cases the rule needs to cut both ways.

Dwarfs: relentless (no disadvantage)
true but keep in mind they are still slow with low I. Thus they have a built in disadvantage.

HE: Speed of Asuryan (no disadvantage)- True and granted right now they are very powerfull but they also have low T and Armour. Also Can get expensive and overwhelmed by larger forces and shooting armies.

O&G: Waaagh (no disadvantage). Wrong. Waaagh is not a sure thing and you take damage to units that roll a one. Further this is an extention of the anomistiy rules. (I have lost count of the number of times half my army just stood around for a turn.) Very much a double edged sword.

Empire: Detachments (no disadvantage). True, But there are other disadvantages with the army as a whole. And most players I know are well versed enough to be able to handle detachments without exposing their troops to unnessisary risk.

Wood Elves: Move & shoot without penalty (no disadvantage) . True but this is also coupled with no armor, low T, little ranked Infantry, and a weekness in the face of strong magic.

Bretonnians: blessing (disadvantage - giving up first turn, easily outweighed by army-wide ward save). True but they lack numbers, Have good armour but save for P. knights and characters have nothing better than T 3. Also infantry is for the most part garbage unless you babysit them with knights. Finally blessing only works for knights.

Beastment: raiders (disadvantage - max rank bonus +2, easily outweighed by skirmishing abilities) - True but have no armour, low leadership and unruly. Also raider only applies to beastheard. And there are restrictions on what they can charge. 25% of the heard has to be in range for the charge to be sucessful.

Lizardmen: Cold blooded (no disadvantage) - True. Other than Low Int. I can't come up with much to balance them out. Oh how I hate them...

Chaos: Marks? Variable army construction? None are actually an army-wide rule per se - All to true but mark of khorne is a double edged sword, Tzeencth is very expensive for characters and leaves the army vunerable to Psy. Even Slaanesh can get you in trouble at times.

Ogres: Bull charge (disadvantage, can be negated) - True but then you have low model count, little armor, expensive.

Tomb Kings: Cause fear, ItP, reliable magic (disadvantage, no IF and random power level, cannot march, undead rule) - True but you forgot low armor, Low I, poor combat ability. And again I maintain ItP can be a double edged sword. (Some times it is better to flee.;))

Vampire Counts: Cause fear, ItP (disadvantage, undead rule) - see above

My point is while army wide rules should inhance the army, there are several examples of built in disadvantage that are attacted to the rule (waaagh) or where army wide rules are important to allow the army to function in a competive way (Dwarfs). I would say this is needed for balance and to keep the each army unquie. Further there is little indication right now of what other rules DE will get. It is impossible to have fair idea of how the new book as a whole will balance disadvantages and advantages.

Again just my thoughts and sorry if a I rambled on to much.

Sir Charles
17-11-2007, 03:10
I would say this is needed for balance and to keep the each army unquie. Further there is little indication right now of what other rules DE will get. It is impossible to have fair idea of how the new book as a whole will balance disadvantages and advantages.

I would just like to add to this that in the first post Alesso agreed with the claim that Hatred wasn't a match for AsF, and said there would be other special rules to ballance that out. In other words the designers have specificly told us that Hatred is not suppose to be the DE answer to AsF and that they had other unspecified rules in mind to handle that.

Farsot
17-11-2007, 03:34
I would just like to add to this that in the first post Alesso agreed with the claim that Hatred wasn't a match for AsF, and said there would be other special rules to ballance that out. In other words the designers have specificly told us that Hatred is not suppose to be the DE answer to AsF and that they had other unspecified rules in mind to handle that.


Well that DO sound like Spite, good or bad.

Also sounds from the firs post like the DE will be a bit more shoot & magic oriented or atleast a beter mix of it then the HE now are. Still I have to agree that 2 shoot S3 RXB for the loss of a BS (they do lose a BS point going R. don't they?) at what range, 30 inch? Hm, gawd the +1BS Dwarves T and BT still pisses me off to no end. I just hope the rest of any new minies will look bloody excellent so I can get me a new army ;D

Stezerok
17-11-2007, 03:57
An expected response from a Chaos player.

lol I don't know what this means, but thanks! I like Chaos! Can't wait for the daemon dex :p

Sir Charles
17-11-2007, 04:28
Well that DO sound like Spite, good or bad.

Also sounds from the firs post like the DE will be a bit more shoot & magic oriented or atleast a beter mix of it then the HE now are. Still I have to agree that 2 shoot S3 RXB for the loss of a BS (they do lose a BS point going R. don't they?) at what range, 30 inch? Hm, gawd the +1BS Dwarves T and BT still pisses me off to no end. I just hope the rest of any new minies will look bloody excellent so I can get me a new army ;D

Multi shoot is -1 to hit not to BS.

ImperiusDominatus
17-11-2007, 08:36
Am I the only one getting a little sick of the people complaining about "all the whining in this thread" as if they're somehow emotionally superior? Seriously, it seems like the second somebody tries to discuss their opinion on a rumor they're immediately labeled a "whiner". Discussing how a rumored rule will affect an army =/= whining.

Anyway, with that out of the way... :angel:

I'm a little torn with the idea of hatred. There a disadvantages, but I don't think they're as big as most people think they are; our units could be baited, yes, but there are ways of dealing with the baiting units through shooting and magic (of which the Druchii will probably get a boost). Not to mention the re-rolling attacks in the first round of combat can potentially be awesome, especially with units like Witch Elves and Executioners. So I suppose I don't really care; I won't be bothered if hatred is included and I won't care if it's not.

Some things I would like to see, though, are:
- Improved Assassins; I love the idea of these guys, but never fielded one for obvious reasons. Looks like this will happen, though.

- Non-stupid, but frenzied Cold Ones; I think this is a great idea. I think Cold Ones should be hard to control because they're so bloodthirsty, not because they're dim-witted.

- Skirmishing Corsairs; Most people already use these guys as screens or small flanking units and I think making them skirmish would definitely make them worth their point cost. Plus, I think it's fluffier; these guys are raiders, not front line troops.

- 5+ Ward save for Witch Elves; or, at least, an easier way to get a ward save for them.

Well, that's all really, but I seem to be just echoing other Druchii players.

silashand
17-11-2007, 09:48
Am I the only one getting a little sick of the people complaining about "all the whining in this thread" as if they're somehow emotionally superior? Seriously, it seems like the second somebody tries to discuss their opinion on a rumor they're immediately labeled a "whiner". Discussing how a rumored rule will affect an army =/= whining.

That's because some people who don't agree with an opinion would prefer not to have to listen to it, thus they label it as whining in an attempt to shut the poster up. IMO such immature antics are quite obviously whining in and of themself, but also obviously the posters won't see that either.

On-topic:

I do think Assassins need to be better. You never seem to see them (or at least I haven't in the 6+ years since the current book was released).

I also think the list needs a couple more monsters. All there is really right now is the hydra, the manticore and the dragon. To me that doesn't seem much of a "monster-heavy" list to me. I'd like to see a basilisk personally and maybe something else like a sea-monster since the Druchii control them. They could be forced to come on land in the same way the merwyrm did for the sea guard list. Maybe make it a giant octopus/kraken-like thing, who knows.

JMO...


My point is while army wide rules should inhance the army, there are several examples of built in disadvantage that are attacted to the rule (waaagh) or where army wide rules are important to allow the army to function in a competive way (Dwarfs).

A rule that allows the army to compensate for an innate weakness in the list is not a disadvantage, as all of the things you listed are compensated for usually in other ways in the list (low toughness, high magic, etc.). I was referring to the army-wide special rules in and of themselves. I agree they should have some benefit to the army as a whole and I really don't think hatred does that for the DE as it is simply too debilitating when exploited properly by a good opponent.

Personally, my idea would simply be the following:

Supreme Arrogance: Dark Elves are first and foremost elves, and consider themselves superior to all other races. Fortunately, as elves they generally are superior in the arts of combat due to their innate skill as well as their long lives spent in almost constant conflict. Dark Elves always hit their opponents on a 3+ regardless of weapon skill.

Either that or:

Relentless Assault: The Druchii are vicious killers intent on only one thing and one thing only: slaughtering their enemy on the battlefield and enslaving any survivors. On the turn they charge, for every hit they score in hand to hand combat, they immediately gain an additional attack. If these additional attacks also hit, they gain yet another attack continuing until unsuccessful. All applicable charging bonuses apply to these additional attacks as normal.

Granted, this second one may be too powerful, but I think it fits and would encourage DE players to get stuck in I think.

Cheers, Gary

Thommy H
17-11-2007, 12:29
That's because some people who don't agree with an opinion would prefer not to have to listen to it, thus they label it as whining in an attempt to shut the poster up.

Now you're calling us whiners for disagreeing about your whining...

It's a difference of opinion. The term 'whining' is just a (not very) nice way of describing what all the people who complain about something being broken or unbalanced before they've even seen it. That's pretty clearly what you're doing - you don't like the way something might turn out, so you're complaining about it.

For the record, Freenut has the right of it with what he said about all the different armies. You can't just look at army-wide special rules in isolation and compare them to each other - that's like only looking at the Strength or Toughness stats and comparing armies based solely on that. Saying that hatred isn't as good as ASF or Relentless or whatever is the same as saying "T3 isn't as good as T4". It's true, but it's meaningless because every army has other things that balance out their disadvantages, not least of which is their points value.

Until anyone has actually seen the new Dark Elf army list, there's no way you can decide if it's unfair or not. I can understand an argument based on background and theme - does hatred fit Dark Elves in that sense, given what we know about their history and personalities? - but any discussion of balance when you have one piece of data is totally absurd.

Lord Raneus
17-11-2007, 13:53
@ Silashand-
The problem with Supreme Arrogance is that we are hitting on a 3+ already against a good number of races, making that rule useless against Orcs, Gobbos, Skaven, TKs, VCs, etc. But we'd still be paying points for it, so it's not a good idea.

knightwire
17-11-2007, 15:22
I understand that HE needed to be balanced out. AoS was an honest intention, but there are a few points about it that I hate. First, it throws tactics right out the window. Why bother setting up for a charge to strike first when you know you will always strike first?


1) So you can recieve the bonuses for charging other than striking first.
1) So you can deny the bonuses for charging other than striking first to your enemy.
3) So you can dictate which enemy units you want your units to fight.
4) So you can charge an enemy unit in the flank or rear.

Same as everyone else. :rolleyes:


Back on topic... I like the Hatred if they eliminate the requirement to pursue. If they don't they they need to do more to make up for that kind of vunerability. The Spite rule would be way cooler. (DE always attack even if killed in combat first)

Relentless Assault would be a great rule for a particular unit.

Urgat
17-11-2007, 15:28
@ Silashand-
The problem with Supreme Arrogance is that we are hitting on a 3+ already against a good number of races, making that rule useless against Orcs, Gobbos, Skaven, TKs, VCs, etc. But we'd still be paying points for it, so it's not a good idea.

Well, DE don't have so much pb with hitting in the first place, so hatred isn't gonna help them so much against these armies either anyway.

Freenut
17-11-2007, 16:38
That's because some people who don't agree with an opinion would prefer not to have to listen to it, thus they label it as whining in an attempt to shut the poster up. IMO such immature antics are quite obviously whining in and of themself, but also obviously the posters won't see that either.

I personally do not think you are people like you who are putting forth well thought out arguments are "whinners". I think what most people have problem with are the people who are just GW bashing or popping on to say "GW is so f-ed up" Or "GW is killing the hobby". Gets a bit old



I also think the list needs a couple more monsters. All there is really right now is the hydra, the manticore and the dragon. To me that doesn't seem much of a "monster-heavy" list to me. I'd like to see a basilisk personally and maybe something else like a sea-monster since the Druchii control them. They could be forced to come on land in the same way the merwyrm did for the sea guard list. Maybe make it a giant octopus/kraken-like thing, who knows.

JMO...

kind of find myself argeeing with this. Alway saw DE as army supplementing its small size with monsters or just getting off on the psychological effects of aiant monster running at the enemey



Supreme Arrogance: Dark Elves are first and foremost elves, and consider themselves superior to all other races. Fortunately, as elves they generally are superior in the arts of combat due to their innate skill as well as their long lives spent in almost constant conflict. Dark Elves always hit their opponents on a 3+ regardless of weapon skill.

Not powerful enough as that is the case most of the time. Maybe if was combined with anouther rule like... Hatred:p



Relentless Assault: The Druchii are vicious killers intent on only one thing and one thing only: slaughtering their enemy on the battlefield and enslaving any survivors. On the turn they charge, for every hit they score in hand to hand combat, they immediately gain an additional attack. If these additional attacks also hit, they gain yet another attack continuing until unsuccessful. All applicable charging bonuses apply to these additional attacks as normal.

Granted, this second one may be too powerful, but I think it fits and would encourage DE players to get stuck in I think.

[Thinks of a unit of frenzied witch elves and shudders] Oh Please God No!!! "May be a little to powerful" deos not even begin to cover how wrong this would be.

Scorpioni
17-11-2007, 16:57
Druchii are much better of with a reroll to wound than a reroll to hit because we have the latter covered through high WS.
If hatred is going to happen, then make it modified without the disadvantage

theunwantedbeing
17-11-2007, 17:10
If the DE get hatred and more powerful magic it might be a little too easy to win....
It's augmenting the combat abilities of an already pretty decent army.

Sure it doesnt help much (or at all really) vs strike first high elves, and doesnt counter the problem of them both being the same damned elves so no reason why one is super quick and the other isnt.....

The main things I really want for my DE army from a personal view is a better war hydra.
So regeneration basically, as thats what the myths get so no reason why this one isnt allowed it as well.
The assasin getting all the stuff the skaven assasin gets and being able to use that bs9 as opposed to it just sitting there looking amazing but being worthless.

Cold ones in light of the new white lions pulling that chariot being frankly absurdly powerful makes me want cold ones to have at least equal attacks and strength as well....they are just as big and powerful as those lions are.

The dark magic being a little more useful.
ie. longer range on soul stealer, lower range one that reduces ballistic skill and weaponskill to 1.
Doombolt being 2d6 st5 hits or having the option to be 2d5 rather than 1d6.

Hatred for my witch elves just makes them well......very powerful.
They already have to persue anyway so that isnt a problem.
My cold one knights now get really nasty.
A highborn on a dragon now looks REALLY tempting.(dragon with hatred...mmm)

Im worried that maybe hatred is simply no good vs the high elves but a bit too problematic for my normal opponents.
Considering I have rubbish luck at ever hitting yet am still quite capable of achieving a decent win and potentially a massacre against my opponents hatred to me at least seems a bit unfair.....

Hatred without needing to persue...
Now thats a rule I would like to be honest, but its more powerful than what they currently are....

RipFlag
17-11-2007, 17:43
@ Silashand-
The problem with Supreme Arrogance is that we are hitting on a 3+ already against a good number of races, making that rule useless against Orcs, Gobbos, Skaven, TKs, VCs, etc. But we'd still be paying points for it, so it's not a good idea.

You know, WS now really is not as good as it use to be, besides Goblins, undead, and ogres and i think almost every races has a ws 4 core choice.

But have +3 to, is still worse that Hatred, because statistically the re-roll is much better

@ Scorpioni Totally on board with you here! I think that the Cualdron of Blood should be given Hatred, instead, and than you can combo the both for A really mean Temple of Khaine list!

silashand
17-11-2007, 17:48
[Thinks of a unit of frenzied witch elves and shudders] Oh Please God No!!! "May be a little to powerful" deos not even begin to cover how wrong this would be.

As wrong as an entire army that always strikes first and has a high initiative to boot? Pot, meet Mr. Kettle ;)...

Cheers, Gary

TheWarSmith
17-11-2007, 21:19
I really hope they don't do this. I hope they learn from their previous books and don't try to give DE "similar, but unequal" special rules.

In their 6th ed books, it was hatred vs. immune to panic(winner: HE)

Fight in 3 ranks vs. don't fight in 3 ranks(winner: HE)

2 cheap, fast, heavy cav units vs. slow stupid/fear cav(winner: HE)

Choice of any lore, seer, free spell, etc. vs. +1 to cast(winner: HE)

It looks as though they're going to try to find new and different rules to try to "balance" against the HE. Ultimately it will most likely create an almost, but not quite HE inferior army, and they'll have to massively revise them as they did in 6th.

I don't see a reason why DE couldn't strike first as well? It'd make sense too.

I'd really prefer poison as an AWR instead of hatred. It'd make beautiful sense and be very nasty.

As a whole, I think that AWR isn't good for warhammer. These rules should be picked and chosen which units to give to. AoS shouldn't be something archers have, as it really protects them against a weakness that HE archers SHOULD have.

Thommy H
17-11-2007, 23:14
As wrong as an entire army that always strikes first and has a high initiative to boot? Pot, meet Mr. Kettle

God Almighty, how long is this going to go on?

Everyone who has actually played against the new High Elves has said that ASF is not the amazing boost it seems to be. It's a nice bonus but, given that High Elves are already fast and have high Initiative, it barely changes anything. And, because they're now more expensive, it means that their armies are that much smaller, and their units generally lose out to static combat resolution because they're so small.

Hatred is a much, much more powerful rule than ASF in the context of an elf army, in fact, because ASF barely changes anything for an army that already dictates combats because of their speed, but being able to re-roll missed hits is always an advantage.

emperorpenguin
18-11-2007, 00:07
Has anyone considered that with universal hatred versus everyone it'll be well nigh impossible for Dark Elves to win a siege as defenders?

We'll be forced to pursue and leave defences. Obviously won't affect every game but still a bloody nuisance.

I'm firmly of the belief that given the wording as to why the High Elves get ASF (ie long-lived and well trained) the Dark Elves being MORE of a martial race than the Asur levies, should have the same rule.

That said I still dislike these AWR. Warhammer has been going downhill for a number of years now in my opinion.

Sir Charles
18-11-2007, 00:10
This is getting annoying, why do people keep bitching about how Hatred is not an adequate response to AsF, when in the first post it says that the designers recognize that and are planning on implementing other rules to counteract SoA. In other words Hatred is not the DE response to AoS, but a special rule they will get in addition to whatever rule the designers decide to implement as a response to AoS.
So yes DE Hatred =/= HE SoA, but its not suppose to because it is not the DE reponse to that rule.
I mean sorry for the rant its just this complaining isn't even just premature but the main point that most people seem to be complaining over was shown to be inaccurate in the first post yet seems to be ignored by everyone.

Freenut
18-11-2007, 01:27
As wrong as an entire army that always strikes first and has a high initiative to boot? Pot, meet Mr. Kettle ;)...

Cheers, Gary

to be blunt no. not even close.

Baindread
18-11-2007, 01:41
lol I don't know what this means, but thanks! I like Chaos! Can't wait for the daemon dex :p

What I mean is that what you wrote is the general response from a chaos players toward anyone else. Chaos players are unbelievably spoiled with both models and rules. They got two books to choose any cheesy combination they can think of and almost all models get and updated every two months. When DE/HE players are fed up with the same crappy army book for 6 years they are told they are whiners and kids who can't play the game. Itīs easy to say something like that when you are a Chaos player.

silashand
18-11-2007, 02:25
to be blunt no. not even close.

Suffice to say I disagree entirely.

Cheers, Gary

TheWarSmith
18-11-2007, 02:59
Vlad, did your post have a purpose to it? It doesn't seem to be discussing anything remotely similar to the thread topic.

Lord Raneus
18-11-2007, 03:02
I'm not suggesting they shouldn't be able to fight High Elves, I'm just pointing out that talking about whatever rule the Dark Elves might get solely in relation to ASF seems pretty silly - Dark Elf armies will not face High Elves exclusively, and will be no more vulnerable to the not-that-powerful-after-all ASF than any other T3 army. And, of course, with hatred they'll be that much better.

What I'm getting at is that not only is ASF not game breaking (as numerous threads reporting actual play have attested) but that there's no particular reason that Dark Elves should have a rule that specifically counteracts it.


Actually, I would say DE are more vulnerable to ASF than Gobbos or Skaven or WE or Bretonnians because Skaven have access to numerous lethal shooting weapons, and Gobbos have the numbers and static CR to stand a chance. WE have ridiculous amount of shooting and Skirmishers, and Bretonnians are tin cans on horses. DE have Hatred, but seeing as their entire front rank will be dead anyways atm, it doesn't really help much.

And Thommy H, the DE vs HE is the main comparison because the armies are the two biggest rivals in the fluff, and in the game as well. Personally, I'm expecting some kind of neutralization of ASF against HE, because the DE are supposed to be the more martial race.

Lord Raneus
18-11-2007, 03:04
This has been said several times, I'll quote it:
"DE don't need help hitting, they need help wounding."

Against many armies, you'll typically be hitting decently enough. It's wounding that's the problem for Elves.

Palatine Katinka
18-11-2007, 03:53
It's not wounding I have a problem with, it's getting through armour! Hatred will help because more hits means more chances to wound means more chances for failed saves. I find it really frustrating when I do get the hits and do get the wounds but then my opponent passes all his saves... :(

The Old Scholar
18-11-2007, 04:10
Hating everyone fits.
The Dark Elves come from the portion of elves that sought to subjugate the entire world as their slaves and cattle. The fact that they have failed to do so due to the fact that Malekith is not the Phoenix King and hence supreme ruler of Ulthuan, they are boiling with spite for not only their High Elf foes, but the rest of the world as well.
But anyway, I wonder what assassins will be like...Witch Elves...Cauldrons of Blood...
I'm certainly happy with the High Elf army book and I'm certain I'll be just as pleased with the Dark Elf release.
Good news, thanks Brave Fencer Rodman49.

sulla
18-11-2007, 05:12
As a whole, I think that AWR isn't good for warhammer. These rules should be picked and chosen which units to give to. AoS shouldn't be something archers have, as it really protects them against a weakness that HE archers SHOULD have. Although, to be honest, are even light cav really gonna be scared of 6-7 s3 attacks coming there way before they get to strike? Same with strikes first silver helms or even dragon princes... they will do the typical elven trick...swings, hits, bounces...

And the other good thing about ASF for HE archers is that it allows the price of them to be kept reasonably high making less incentive for HE players to go gunline to support their formidable magic.

Stezerok
18-11-2007, 05:25
What I mean is that what you wrote is the general response from a chaos players toward anyone else. Chaos players are unbelievably spoiled with both models and rules. They got two books to choose any cheesy combination they can think of and almost all models get and updated every two months. When DE/HE players are fed up with the same crappy army book for 6 years they are told they are whiners and kids who can't play the game. Itīs easy to say something like that when you are a Chaos player.

You know I'm really sorry for whatever bad experience you've had with Chaos. I've been playing them for about a year now, so I wouldn't know much about updates and how often we get them, or about how you guys don't get what you want. But I will say that I'm sorry that you decided to lump me into a group of "spoiled" players, when you barely even know me. It just goes to show that prejudices enter even into games when differences between factions are presented. Not to mention that I was merely stating that saying something is BS, or is F-ed up on the part of GW before it even comes out is WHINING, and is definitely not an optimistic way of viewing things. Don't think that just because I play chaos doesn't mean I don't know what it's like to play an army that isn't as well maintained as others. I've been playing Eldar in 40k since I was in like 5th grade, and barely understood the game then. Now a-days I'm definitely not a bad player, and I've waited quite a long time since then to have our update and I wasn't one of the guys who jumped on the Eldar band-wagon when our best weapons were downgraded and made incredibly overpriced. Nor was a miffed when our best special characters The Pheonix Lords became overpriced and only truly useful as paper weights. I took it as it came, and kept playing an army I loved, despite the fact that Craftworlds Eldar was demolished, and the units in them made useless. I had to completely redesign my Eldar list, but I didn't complain one bit. So don't think I don't understand thats all I'm saying.

Urgat
18-11-2007, 10:13
Actually, I would say DE are more vulnerable to ASF than Gobbos [....], Gobbos have the numbers and static CR to stand a chance.

Killing 5 gobs is enough to negate all static CR (assuming the elves have NO static CR at all and the gobs have a banner), and it's not an incredible prowess for any elf unit to do, quite frankly.

I still stand by the idea that helping them hit is not useful. Sure, more hits leads to more wounds and so on, but if you already pass most of your attacks most of the time (which is the case against most opponent, everybody doesn't have chaos warriors of SM), hatred won't give you free new attacks to roll.

kheirakh
18-11-2007, 12:41
Is there any confirmation about the release schedule?

And please, some people, stop whining.

ImperiusDominatus
18-11-2007, 14:17
This is getting annoying, why do people keep bitching about how Hatred is not an adequate response to AsF, when in the first post it says that the designers recognize that and are planning on implementing other rules to counteract SoA. In other words Hatred is not the DE response to AoS, but a special rule they will get in addition to whatever rule the designers decide to implement as a response to AoS.
So yes DE Hatred =/= HE SoA, but its not suppose to because it is not the DE reponse to that rule.
I'll echo Sir Charles.

I agree that hatred would not even begin to combat ASF, but that's alright, because it's not supposed to. We should definitely wait till we hear more rumors on the Druchii's actual answer to ASF before we begin discussing how it might affect the Dark Elf army... or "whine" as people like to put it these days. :rolleyes:

TheWarSmith
18-11-2007, 17:09
What I mean is that what you wrote is the general response from a chaos players toward anyone else. Chaos players are unbelievably spoiled with both models and rules. They got two books to choose any cheesy combination they can think of and almost all models get and updated every two months. When DE/HE players are fed up with the same crappy army book for 6 years they are told they are whiners and kids who can't play the game. Itīs easy to say something like that when you are a Chaos player.

Well,

Chaos arguably has THE largest influence in the warhammer world. Almost EVERYTHING revolves around them in some way or another.

I don't know what wonderful world you live in where they get updates every 2 months, because I've certainly not seen those new models. I've been waiting for new warhounds, marauders, chariots, and minotaurs for a years.

Wow, remind me not to go into your store, because got forbid my "cheesy" combination might beat your high elves.

Onto my second point.

I really think POISON would be a better AWR than HATRED(keep hatred vs. elves though). it fits the background, and it would end up creating a very similar advantage. In fact, it'd be better personally, as it would give DE a chance to take out giants and the like without having to resort to unreliable/expensive bolt throwers. It would be a huge advantage to repeater xbowmen, who right now struggle to wound a lot.

And remember, people aren't arguing that the advantages of hatred arent' good. They're mainly arguing that their entire army could now be baited around at their opponent's whim. Without TOO much trouble.

Take an example. DE executioners. I charge them with something stupid, say 5 wolf riders. 3-4 of them die, and I run like a girl. DE have to run, which basically allowed me to just force move the DE players regiment 2d6", which put me in range of my charge with something if I'm smart, or it put knight unit into flanking cannon range or something.

It's similar to frenzy in that it can lead to horrible baiting. And for it to effect all HE(basically every unit save for harpies?), isn't good because even khorne players can take warhounds to tame their bloodthirsty frenzy units behind them.

Also, shouldn't the "hatred" AWR be considered an answer to the HE "reroll psych" tests, not SoA, seeing as those would be the "psychological" special rules.

Baindread
18-11-2007, 18:41
You know I'm really sorry for whatever bad experience you've had with Chaos.

I don't have any problems with Chaos besides the obvious favorism they recieve from GW, mostly Gav Thorpes doing when he was head honcho.



I've been playing them for about a year now, so I wouldn't know much about updates and how often we get them, or about how you guys don't get what you want. But I will say that I'm sorry that you decided to lump me into a group of "spoiled" players, when you barely even know me.


Like you assume I play DE just because I felt compelled to answer your derigatory remarks about DE players in general being third grade whiners?



Not to mention that I was merely stating that saying something is BS, or is F-ed up on the part of GW before it even comes out is WHINING, and is definitely not an optimistic way of viewing things.


I agree that it is supremely stupid to accuse GW of writing a rule before you have the finished book in hand and can accurately say what the rule is and how it is written, if in the book at all. But that isn't exactly what you said. You said you just read through 6 pages of DE-players whining and that they had forgotten how to play the game and all they do is complaining.



I've been playing Eldar in 40k since I was in like 5th grade, and barely understood the game then. Now a-days I'm definitely not a bad player, and I've waited quite a long time since then to have our update and I wasn't one of the guys who jumped on the Eldar band-wagon when our best weapons were downgraded and made incredibly overpriced. Nor was a miffed when our best special characters The Pheonix Lords became overpriced and only truly useful as paper weights. I took it as it came, and kept playing an army I loved, despite the fact that Craftworlds Eldar was demolished, and the units in them made useless. I had to completely redesign my Eldar list, but I didn't complain one bit. So don't think I don't understand thats all I'm saying.

I understand your sentiment and I have no personal grudge or the like against you at all. But you came off rather strong and ragged off an entire community and called their discussing of the rules whining. There is nothing I dislike more than somewhat constructive argumenting being called whining by players not at all involved in the discussion or at the most their only contribution is that everyone are jerks and the army they themselves play should be made stronger. Ignoring the arguments and stating that something is fine as it is extremely annoying, especially when said army was updated 6 years ago and regularly finishes last in almost every major tournament. Though, as this was your first post and my impression of you was that you fitted into the category I explained above but explained your view of things and turned out to not be as such, I must say I agree with you that players should not whine about rules not yet out in a rule book.

Baindread
18-11-2007, 18:53
Well,

Chaos arguably has THE largest influence in the warhammer world. Almost EVERYTHING revolves around them in some way or another.


Chaos is only as important as GW decides to do them which previously was way too big. They seem to have slightly dropped this attitude as of lately though which is nice.



I don't know what wonderful world you live in where they get updates every 2 months, because I've certainly not seen those new models. I've been waiting for new warhounds, marauders, chariots, and minotaurs for a years.


A slight exaggeration to illuminate my point. You wait for new marauders and hounds? I guess VC players wait for new Black Knights seeing as they are from 4th ed. And I suppose DE would like a lord model, AT ALL. Chaos have, what, 10 different ones? And that is not counting special characters. Skaven clanrats are ugly and pretty old. Same with Skeletons. So, very few options in a Chaos list is old and they have one of the largest ranges of models in the entire WHFB.



Wow, remind me not to go into your store, because got forbid my "cheesy" combination might beat your high elves.


I don't play HE. What is your grudge against HE players? I never post from a biased view of any particular army since I don't care for any particular army. I care for the game and an unbalanced game is a bad game.

Stezerok
18-11-2007, 19:02
I understand your sentiment and I have no personal grudge or the like against you at all. But you came off rather strong and ragged off an entire community and called their discussing of the rules whining. There is nothing I dislike more than somewhat constructive argumenting being called whining by players not at all involved in the discussion or at the most their only contribution is that everyone are jerks and the army they themselves play should be made stronger. Ignoring the arguments and stating that something is fine as it is extremely annoying, especially when said army was updated 6 years ago and regularly finishes last in almost every major tournament. Though, as this was your first post and my impression of you was that you fitted into the category I explained above but explained your view of things and turned out to not be as such, I must say I agree with you that players should not whine about rules not yet out in a rule book.

Well I'm sorry that I had come off as I didn't intend. I wasn't trying to a apply a blanket statement about Dark Elf players, quite the opposite, I was trying to speak just about players who were complaining unreasonably and without considering other things that the DE might be getting in the update. I guess that in essence you and I feel the same way, but I came off as being very aggressive, because I never find I have an easy time against my opponents DE's and by virtue of losing to him, and by the fact that I've taken to Dark Elves myself, I was just not happy with the number of people nor the way that the people were making their cases about the issue at hand.

TheWarSmith
18-11-2007, 20:18
Chaos is only as important as GW decides to do them which previously was way too big. They seem to have slightly dropped this attitude as of lately though which is nice.



A slight exaggeration to illuminate my point. You wait for new marauders and hounds? I guess VC players wait for new Black Knights seeing as they are from 4th ed. And I suppose DE would like a lord model, AT ALL. Chaos have, what, 10 different ones? And that is not counting special characters. Skaven clanrats are ugly and pretty old. Same with Skeletons. So, very few options in a Chaos list is old and they have one of the largest ranges of models in the entire WHFB.



I don't play HE. What is your grudge against HE players? I never post from a biased view of any particular army since I don't care for any particular army. I care for the game and an unbalanced game is a bad game.

I think Chaos SHOULD be big. They are THE evil army, which I think is crucial for the game. Just as the Imperium(SM and IG, etc.) are THE good army in 40k universe. A universe needs a central theme to work around. In 40k it's the imperium, in fantasy it's the battle against chaos(narrated through the empire usually).


Point taken about some of the older models, but, well, that happens. I play tzeentch and I'm stuck using really old minotaurs, dragon ogres, and bestigors. Do I agree that some armies seem to have more newly updated models than others? yes. Bretonnians, dwarves, and wood elves have almost 100% new sculpts since their last induction, and I believe dwarves are only missing their ironbreakers and hammerers. That's just part of warhammer.

I got no beef against high elves. Their rules on paper make them look mighty powerful, but that's almost NEVER the case when the models are put onto the field. I really look forward to playing the HE w/ my chaos and finding out their tricks, weaknesses, and nuances.

It's often very tough to tell how much affect a cost of a model has until its cumulative cost is added up into a whole army put down on the table.

Jerrus
18-11-2007, 20:35
....And remember, people aren't arguing that the advantages of hatred arent' good. They're mainly arguing that their entire army could now be baited around at their opponent's whim. Without TOO much trouble.

Take an example. DE executioners. I charge them with something stupid, say 5 wolf riders. 3-4 of them die, and I run like a girl. DE have to run, which basically allowed me to just force move the DE players regiment 2d6", which put me in range of my charge with something if I'm smart, or it put knight unit into flanking cannon range or something.

It's similar to frenzy in that it can lead to horrible baiting. And for it to effect all HE(basically every unit save for harpies?), isn't good because even khorne players can take warhounds to tame their bloodthirsty frenzy units behind them.

Also, shouldn't the "hatred" AWR be considered an answer to the HE "reroll psych" tests, not SoA, seeing as those would be the "psychological" special rules.

But since Dark Elf players have a turn to react between "the baiting" and "the trap" it isn't really that devastating. He "baits" you, you charge his "trap" unit. Or he "baits" you, you turn your knight flank away from the cannon. It really isn't as bad as some people seem to think....

Kellindel
18-11-2007, 20:37
Wow ... This has really gotten out of hand when even the Rumor is vague at best.

To the comment about killing 4 to 5 gobbo's to remove the CR for end of round combat....

The Gobbo's are cheap enough that removing 4 or 5 in combat is most likely not going to affect the Rank CR bonus. You will also have the "Outnumbered" bonus in your pocket. And if you bought your Command, you'll have another for the standard.

People still fail to see that the HE player needs to Hit and there is still a chance he won't even wound. People assume that just because a White Lion has a WS 5 and a Str of 6 and SoA means they're going to tear through ANYTHING that comes their way.

In all honesty that just ISN'T the case. Against Gobbo's and Skaven I'm more likely to miss that to wound, but in the end the results there is good chance that if the HE unit is not supported, it's going to break and get run down.

At least that's been my experience these last few weeks with my HE. SoA is nice and all but it isn't a game winner in any shape or form. It restructures how the rounds play out and that's about it.

Granted when ever there is a chance I take a charge I get heckled for the SoA ..... EVERYTIME .... So I'm most likely going to break out my DE and show these guys I don't need SoA to win. Then they're really going to cry foul things at me. :)

Back on topic though ... DE need something to fight HE. Most likely they will get something that negates SoA .... But until we hear something we should even really complain about anything. We can dream and post it, but complaining isn't really going to constructive.

If we were going to look at the fluff and say what belonged where, then I would have said that the DE get SoA. Seeing how the discription says years of practice and fighting have made the HE what they are ..... When it was the DE that fought Maliketh in the North .... They were the "Strong Arm" of the forces before the sundering. HE would have ended up with access to some REALLY nice Special units, which all have access to magic items and banners while the DE have some more "Martial" units.

What I feel needs to be addressed with DE:
1.) RxB though nice, shouldn't really cost that much for Warriors and Riders. For some reason GW thinks a ranged S3 shot is uber powerful and it's cost should reflect it. I personally don't think the cost properly reflects what you pay for.
2.) I think the COC will end up being more like the White Lion Chariot. More expensive, but the CO strength should go up.
3.) Next point ... I think the Str of the Cold Ones will go up ... And they will most likely keep the stupidity ..... This would be a decent trade for the possibility of having them sniff the flowers when you don't make that roll.
4.) If they were going to make a change to Cold Ones and not have stupidity, then maybe have them get Frenzy, and the COK have to make LD rolls to actually move them the way you want and not towards the closest enemy unit.
5.) If assassin's are not going to be hero's that can lead an army then maybe they should be considered an update to any unit, like a command squad. A hero should be able to be used as a commander, not some uber solo combat guy.
6.) Poison attacks for Witches.
7.) Heavy Cav for DE that are not Cold Ones.
8.) Regen for Hydra

I would write more but I have to take the boy to see some trains ...

I'll put my flame retardent stuff on now. ;)

Columind
18-11-2007, 21:25
Stezerok spoke like a true Chaos player...:rolleyes:

Everyone deserves the chance to give their opinion on things.
I actually spoke about the DE army in general, specific units that I would love to see changed, what could be gained and lost...and I think I gave my opinion without claiming GW would destroy us and without whining.
But I see that while some people whine, other people...also whine.
You basically lost control on that reply, and that makes you as wise as the whiners you criticise.

I'm done with this thread, because people don't respect each other's opinions anymore.

Baindread
19-11-2007, 00:19
I really look forward to playing the HE w/ my chaos and finding out their tricks, weaknesses, and nuances.


I played just such a game today, being on the HE side of things for once. But seeing as it was a marathon of bad luck on both sides you couldn't really tell much from that game :D

Haquim
19-11-2007, 01:49
Contrary to what a lot of people here seem to think, chaos is not one of the best armies out there. It's ballanced IMHO. There's only one truly scary list and that's the chaos lord of tzeentch on chaos dragon AND hellcannon.
That chaos list is strong, Empire, skaven, WE all have lists as powerful or more powerful than that...

About the druchii: if I have to guess I think they'll give'em some already existing rule, like poison (and I repeat myself: poison&hatred would be quite powerful, if they get to poison xbows they'll get better than the current HE...)
What I really wish for is assassins actually able to kill their opponents, no more 0/1 harpies, devastating magic and I'd LOVE to see manticores as rare choices...

Moroseth Anaratharach
19-11-2007, 05:03
Finally this conversation is drawing to a close... I was thouroughly amazed how much many of the Warseer DE players complain about insubstantial rumours... honestly, it made me cringe when I thought about the fact that I play the same army as these clowns.

Thank you to all of the constructive insightful (a.k.a non-whiny) players...

and shame on all of the whining DE players

-Moroseth

Dominatrix
19-11-2007, 08:18
I will never understand how people are always so quick to call someone a whiner because they disagree with him. I guess lack of arguments is a reason and calling someone a whiner is the quick way to invalidate someone else's opinion. Anyway most of the people here complained because a some people said that hatred is enough for the new DE when it quite clearly is not. Even a game designer (Alessio Cavatore if I remember correctly) said that DE would get things other than hatred to counterbalance ASF. So I guess until some new rumours pop up, there is no point incontinuing this discussion.
On a final note I am not a DE player so no skin of my back, but where I come from calling someone a clown is considered rude. So unless you want to reduce this to a name calling contest refrain from calling people clowns or whatever. If not I am pretty sure that the quality of these threads will degenerate a lot faster.

druchiianointed
19-11-2007, 09:55
lets all get back on the dark elf issue, and not talk about whiners and clown!!

Grinloc
19-11-2007, 11:48
Especially against horde armies this hatred thing can really become a problem.

Against competent opponents this hatred thing can result in "denying" the DE player important charges on his own turn.

Example: An opponent moves his goblins unit into position, 8" or less away from your DE unit. At the same time he brings his orc boyz unit into a potential flanking position, incase the DE player decides to charge the goblins on his own turn, being forced to persue in the process.

Now the DE player would normally want to charge the goblin unit and hold at the end of CC, but due to hatred his unit would most likely get charged in the flank by the orc boyz next turn after being forced to chase the fleeing goblins.

This is really harsh in my opinion and partially equals to "frenzy-baiting".

Precision in movement is of great importance to a DE army and this hatred thing quite possibly puts them at a heavy disadvantage when it comes to charging opposing units on their own turn.

Almost any other army would attempt to send those goblins running and try to hold afterwards (in case they got high enough LD in their unit, that is), but a DE player would send his unit of (example) corsairs into their doom. This can't be right.

This spite thing would be lovely, but when it comes to the hatred thing...just don't, please don't.
Although if what Cavatore said is actually true, then i wouldn't hold my breath...:(.

In our battles here we do this "baiting" all the time, with both frenzy and hatred.
And now Cavatore says that it would be my GW given right to obliterate this baited unit just because due to hatred the DE player refused to accept being effectively denied the charge opportunity on his own turn so he wouldn't lose that unit in the process?

That's brilliant really...from a game designer no less, in case he actually said that of course.

One more thing: Is there actually any way to give GW some kind of feedback on this issue?

Freenut
19-11-2007, 16:00
Example: An opponent moves his goblins unit into position, 8" or less away from your DE unit. At the same time he brings his orc boyz unit into a potential flanking position, incase the DE player decides to charge the goblins on his own turn, being forced to persue in the process.

Now the DE player would normally want to charge the goblin unit and hold at the end of CC, but due to hatred his unit would most likely get charged in the flank by the orc boyz next turn after being forced to chase the fleeing goblins.

This is really harsh in my opinion and partially equals to "frenzy-baiting".

Precision in movement is of great importance to a DE army and this hatred thing quite possibly puts them at a heavy disadvantage when it comes to charging opposing units on their own turn.

Almost any other army would attempt to send those goblins running and try to hold afterwards (in case they got high enough LD in their unit, that is), but a DE player would send his unit of (example) corsairs into their doom. This can't be right.



Ok using your example what is to prevent you from angling you unit in such a way that if the goblins do charge and you break them the pursuit will carry you in to the orcs or at the least be a front charge. We are not talking about frenzy, you do not have to charge. Further what is to prevent you from using your other units to threaten his flanks. Finally what is to prevent you from backing the unit up and setting you own trap. This is what gets me about this whole discussion. Granted hatred can be used against you but you know that. Why is to prevent DE players using strategy to turn this in to an advantage. If you don't want an opponent to take advantage of your armies weakness, stop him.

AUN'SHI
19-11-2007, 16:12
A rule I'd like to see is the assasins come out of the enemy unit and they get to attacks whom they want and DO not need to accept challanges.

It's like ok assasin your job is to make it in that unit and kill that mage.... Champion calls out a challange and the assasins is like dammit I don't have anyone to accept this ok Ill accept... Why would this happen imagine if malikith told one of his highly trained assasin to kill a guy but he hears this didn't happen cause someone challanged him and he "had" to accept... Why would you take an assasin in that scope???

COK stupidity should be gone I don't care that the lizardmen have to deal with it (granted on 3d6) The DE beast master's should beat the stupidity out of the damn lizard... I mean that's their job right??? and the coldones should get 2A again and maybe something small rule wise of the actual rider

Witchelves should get a rule beloved of khaine 5+ ward save... or sorry guys imo I wouldn't use them cause they are a walking loss of points...

If the DE can use poisons then it should be an option example add it to rxb for 1pts extra or somthing along that line..

Shade should get wicked rules like maybe hard to hit sea dragon cloak???

corasiar I agree they should be skirmish but should have a similar rule to beastmen aka get ranks still shows the DE disipline

Blackgaurd.. Ok these guys right now are 16pts they need some uber rule 1 rule I think they should get is always strike first even againt ppl that already do so... why? these are the best of the best in DE society Malikith personal gaurd they should have all the rules they already pluse ASF. and maybe seadragon cloacks. They should be able to use any armoury the DE got (with the exception if magic items) oh and they should be able to take 100 pt banners.

the DE warriors should get 2 attacks in the front ranks due to their cool weapons :)

Warhydra regeneration not a tough one imo

Malikith- What can I say new model and new rules are needed.

Give them the city gaurd rule I use to love those guys :)

Dark riders.... ability to get poison rxb

DE should not get -1 to shoot rxb they should be profecient with those weapons imo

new magic items and change a few magic spells

I'm not sure what else but somthing will come to mind :P

Akroma
19-11-2007, 19:15
i think they should be quite careful in what they are doing...
first point is hatred: some people complain about the disadvantages - but the damage output in round 1 is increased dramatically... there will be many situations when the opponent will break now (instead of passing the leadership test as before)... i mean always strike first is hard against the weak and fast opponents (like DE) but hatred can be really really nasty against the slower ones. the DE are still a fast army - normally they pick out their targets so this will have a huge impact.

poison on rxb would be very strong as well. a quite normal situation are moving shades shooting twice per model on long distance (makes 6+ to hit). this rule will not only double the wounds - on heavy targets like dragons its much harder... imagine 10 of them = 20 attacks -> 3,333... wounds due to poison only.

this needs serious playtesting to set points correctly... i doubt we'll see poison here or it will be a really expensive option

as for the temple of khaine units i would like to see some changes. the witches are such a cool unit - why not giving them the option to choose between different poisons before the combat starts (there are wardancers which have something 'comparable', so do the black orcs, why not them as well?!). and something like 'stunning beauty': enemies are distracted by their appearance - they get -1 to hit
this would be really nice, fluffy, something unique... not a stupid ward save. in fact the result would be more or less similar... (except vs magic)
execs need a major redone i think. maybe armor breaking & one additional attack after each kill they made (only counts for the first attacks) - loosing the KB is a good thing. the unit itself is not that hard at the moment, but if lucky they kill a chaosgeneral in round 1... no thx

corsairs maybe skirmisher (they are pirates - they don't fight in ranks) with option to take rxb bows (or maybe smaller ones which only can be fired before it goes into combat - looses count towards combat results)... for 10 points no one use them... there are 3 options: make the other core weaker, kick them out or buff them; since the pirate thing is connected to the DE stories i would like to see Nr.3

cold ones one more attack as said is enough and a change for the cauldron; the range thing makes it useless... a fast and mobile army has no need for being forced to a certain place on the battlefield. but maybe it get bound spells and this solves the problem for sure

the hydra ideas sound very nice & useful so far... need to see the effect on the field.

maybe cityguard should be an option again - but with them normal spearelves are no longer taken... if they are in again they should be much more expensive than rxbows or the spear elves need a buff... no idea what (and don't forget this is a core unit - not everything needs something special)

chariots no more 2 for 1 slot since its heavy

DR champ needs to have +1 attack instead of +1BS or maybe both...

black guard is not bad but it doesn't taste right... first they should go to elite option (no one takes them when he can have bolt throwers and hydras - and don't forget about the cauldron - if this thing is useful there is just no room for the guard), maybe cause fear or fight in 2 ranks due to reflect excellent combat skills... i don't know... but to be honest I've never seen them and this will not happen unless there is a major change.

shades don't need a big change... if they want to do something maybe BS5 or poison as option - but to be honest, WE is the range army, i don't see a point why DE should have such efficient range units... they should weaken the opponent by magic&missiles then finish them off in hand to hand (or just hand to hand)

assassins (skaven as well) really need always strike first - only when uncover them is such a joke after everyone has magic items which grants ASF all the time or even complete armies exist with this rule :?
give them ASF & KB and keep the rest as it is (where is the point in giving execs killing blow but keeping assassins - the real 'experts' without this?) - then he is a real option; i've heard about hiding them in enemy units - this would be so hard... imagine a level4 mage is getting killed by this in round 1 - no thx

and i like hag heroes - i was really angry when they threw them out... they are just cool and i am hoping for some nice new models here ;)


these are just my thoughts - of course they can't & won't change everything but well... at least some of it and i would be happy!
in principle there is no need to whine or complain yet - let's see what happens next

PS: what is confusing for me is the fact that DE need to play passive (much shooting and magic maybe) against HE to 'counter' the ASF - thats completely against the background... i can't see a rule which helps here (maybe even 'fallen' units may attack the HE, this would completely ignore the ASF rule but sadly this results in no need to take care about moving units as well - its not important who attacks, but if HE are on the field thats already the fact :wtf:)

AUN'SHI
19-11-2007, 19:57
I think Witchelves should have a ward save and be skirmish. Ward save imo would be the only thing that makes any sense for them.

A nice rule to the black gaurd would be you get -1 to hit them in cc cause they are so skilled.

Nagash333
19-11-2007, 20:02
I think people are getting a little carried away with their 'wish lists' for what is essentially a solid army. Too many direct comparisons with HE's are being made. There are some units that need tweaking, I've got a few ideas:

1) Witch Elf Hag as a hero
2) Keep all core the same, all quality choices
3) Cold One Knights, must keep stupidity for character, reduce to 27pts. Fear causing is quality
4) Witch Elves, bloodlust: add d3" to charges, same points, accept the fact that their fragile
5) Hydra, regenerate
6) Executioners, 1pt decrease

Army Special Rule: All DE weapons are armour piercing

Akroma
19-11-2007, 20:37
1) - no discussion here, probably no one has a problem with a hag as hero choice
2) - where is the sense of taking corsairs? the unit is really useless at the moment and it costs 3 points more than spear elves which is quite a lot!
3) - sure stupidity has to stay in (or maybe with missed LD test they move towards the nearest enemy), but an additional attack like in edition 5 would be ok - if you see the trend for heavy cav. (dragonprinces, the new vampire cav) they can use a boost like this
4) - why that? they have frenzy, you want to roll the D3 before they have to attack or what? better give them movement 6 but i doubt that is fair because this units is already hard with 3 poisoned attacks (maybe + hatred!); i don't like a ward save too - but if they buff the HE because of their 'weakness' a minor change could be made; maybe they find a way which fits to them
5) - this is quite possible, but its strange to see an unit which can regenerate and which uses a breathweapon... lets hope the poor hydra won't kill itself :angel:
6) - i am glad it's been said they will get a major change... they just suck - temple of khaine units should be kind of elite - but if you make them even cheaper and field masses of them thats definitely no good idea (after spear elves they would be the cheapest option, or not?!)

last point: yes thats an option - but i am pretty sure this hatred thing will be the army wide rule... this all or nothing style in combat fits their style, if i like it or not...

PS: of course a 'wishlist' is kinda pointless, but people like discussing about possibilities and so on... and sometimes a really good idea is born by this... so why not?!

PeWpWnsJ00
20-11-2007, 00:02
Wow 10 pages long... and only 3 pages worth of information and discussion.

Someone needs to create a whining thread so the rest of us can get down to business.

1) Directed at the original post, there was one question that was too difficult to look for in the 10 pages thus far... did you have a chance to ask about new miniatures???

2) Regeneration on the hydra is so fitting, however, does anyone feel that the hydra may need a combat boost such as stubborn? I feel my hydra flees more than any unit in my army. I even keep him on the flanks and do not engage directly into rnf units.

3) Witch elves suck? That was a surprise to see posted... Witch elves are incredible, you just need to use them correctly. Something with high toughness and low armor (Orcs/Ogres/Dragon Ogres/Minotaurs/Giants/etc.)

Anyhow, let me know about the above 2.

Thanks/.

Haquim
20-11-2007, 01:02
Wow 10 pages long... and only 3 pages worth of information and discussion.

Someone needs to create a whining thread so the rest of us can get down to business.

1) Directed at the original post, there was one question that was too difficult to look for in the 10 pages thus far... did you have a chance to ask about new miniatures???

2) Regeneration on the hydra is so fitting, however, does anyone feel that the hydra may need a combat boost such as stubborn? I feel my hydra flees more than any unit in my army. I even keep him on the flanks and do not engage directly into rnf units.

3) Witch elves suck? That was a surprise to see posted... Witch elves are incredible, you just need to use them correctly. Something with high toughness and low armor (Orcs/Ogres/Dragon Ogres/Minotaurs/Giants/etc.)

Anyhow, let me know about the above 2.

Thanks/.

1) No I didn't ask for new minis. Sorry.

2) The only thing I'm (reasonably) sure about the Hydra is it will get regen, didn't ask about stubborn (I'd like it to have more attacks but I didn't ask).

chivalrous
20-11-2007, 03:43
Wow 10 pages long... and only 3 pages worth of information and discussion.
Someone needs to create a whining thread so the rest of us can get down to business.
That and I think we're well beyond the point of rumour discussion and are well into wishlisting. Might be an idea for both of the Dark Elf discussions to get moved to the General discussion forum.

1) Directed at the original post, there was one question that was too difficult to look for in the 10 pages thus far... did you have a chance to ask about new miniatures???
One thing you can say about the current range is that they are all very very pretty, arguably some of the best models in the whole GW range.
I suppose there has been a consistent grumble for more character models but that's been rumbling since 1994.

2) Regeneration on the hydra is so fitting, however, does anyone feel that the hydra may need a combat boost such as stubborn? I feel my hydra flees more than any unit in my army. I even keep him on the flanks and do not engage directly into rnf units.
I've not found that myself. If you'll indulge my nostalgia a moment, I'd like to see the return of the old War Hydra rule from 5th edition. At that point the War Hydra didn't have regeneration (good thing too considering how it worked then), but it did have a breath attack of a strength equal to its remaining wounds. So an un-wounded hydra had a S7 breath weapon. I'm not saying we go back to a 7 wound Hydra, 6 is perfectly fine. But a special rule to represent all heads firing at once, rather than just one as it is now, it might be nice. Also, How often does your hydra get within breath range before it's lost a couple of wounds? It might not be hugely overpowered when you think about it like that.

3) Witch elves suck? That was a surprise to see posted... Witch elves are incredible, you just need to use them correctly. Something with high toughness and low armor (Orcs/Ogres/Dragon Ogres/Minotaurs/Giants/etc.)
I was a bit surprised by that revelation myself, once they get into combat they are monsters. Although they also make very good pincushions :p
I can understand people wanting a Wych like dodge/ward save or a -1 to hit them in close combat as they are an extremely well trained warrior cult and I can see the sense, even if I can also see and shudder at the associated point increase, in that rule.
Best thing for them would be a Hero level character.
There were also some voices asking for Neverending Frenzy since it's drug induced... I don't think it's really necessary.

thegrapeman
20-11-2007, 03:54
What about this for a army-wide rule......

Poisoned Attacks.

Please don't hit me - I was brainstorming. I think it would be a cool rule to have, and it fits the Dark Elves quite well.

The Grape Man

PeWpWnsJ00
20-11-2007, 04:46
I really like the army wide hatred rule. I think it fits the army nicely, and I can't think of many scenarios where you would be 'screwed' by involuntarily pursuing your defeated enemy.

There will certainly be the case where you hesitate to engage the enemy for the exact reason above, but you are given the option to mitigate that risk before declaring the charge. In essence, you still need to be a solid general with the Dark Elves, hatred will simply be an added bonus.

New miniatures are not necessary by any means, I couldn't agree with you more on the current range. I ask this for more selfish reasons, as I would prefer not to repaint any new minis of my current range for Dark Elves, save perhaps the warriors/corsairs. A plastic kit for these, the obvious plastic COK and a plastic chariot would suite me just fine.

Your response about the hydra is interesting. A stronger breath weapon would be a lot of fun, especially because 4 attacks (4 from the apprentices too if we're counting S3 attacks) isn't enough to win combat even against a unit of RnF 1/2 it's points. Break Test on Ld 8 for a terror causing 200+ point monster?! ouch. However, with the proposed breath weapon, I could make good use of the hydra.

sulla
20-11-2007, 05:06
3) Witch elves suck? That was a surprise to see posted... Witch elves are incredible, you just need to use them correctly. Something with high toughness and low armor (Orcs/Ogres/Dragon Ogres/Minotaurs/Giants/etc.)



...and not get charged by said monstrosities despite not being able to flee and being slower than them, and relying on 6's.

And there is also the problem of your opponent not obliging by bring no low armour troops for you to hack, or only soft troops with guns. The problem with witch elves is not that they are not good at what they do, it's more that killing poorly armoured enemies is something that most of the DE list can do this adequately without spending so much and without needing babysitting to protect from frenzied baiting. They are a lot like cold one knights in that what they can do rarely justifies the risks of bringing them to the tabletop.

silashand
20-11-2007, 05:21
but where I come from calling someone a clown is considered rude. So unless you want to reduce this to a name calling contest refrain from calling people clowns or whatever. If not I am pretty sure that the quality of these threads will degenerate a lot faster.

You're new to WarSeer aren't you? Calling people whiners and other names is a common occurence here when folks don't want to listen to your opinion, especially if you don't like something. I swear, you'd think this was a GW-run site by some of the comments...

Anyway, on-topic:

I personally think an additional hero choice would be good, with the Witch Elf hag being a nice option. However, I would think she would have to have some decent options, otherwise we risk having another assassin class hero that's not all that worthwhile.

Regen for the hydra is almost a necessity. I also would like a better breath weapon as I just don't see it as all that useful right now.

And to reiterate: more monsters! ;)

Cheers, Gary

Heretic Burner
20-11-2007, 09:30
Let me get this straight: they are taking an army that, at its core, is about being supremely mobile with precision strikes and throwing a rule like hatred on all their units? It boggles my mind. Does GW even play the games they produce?

They genuinely expect this to level the playing field?

My head hurts.

John Wayne II
20-11-2007, 10:08
Let me get this straight: they are taking an army that, at its core, is about being supremely mobile with precision strikes and throwing a rule like hatred on all their units? It boggles my mind. Does GW even play the games they produce?

They genuinely expect this to level the playing field?

My head hurts.

And it boggles the mind that someone can make a judgement on a book that hasn't even been fully written yet. :rolleyes:

thedodgeypanda
20-11-2007, 11:16
Malekith should have Witchking Armour; 3+ Ward saves at all times, 5+ Armour saves. His cloak should do something (a better sea dragon cloak) +2AS +3Vs shooting. His destroyer should stay the same, the hand of khain should be S8 No armour saves (come on it’s basically a power fist). He should be a level 4 Wizard fro, the dark lore but can control it better so he can discard 1 dice from the spell he cast (before dispel attempts) so he can discard a 1 to negate a miss cast but the power level will be lower. He should Be Stuborn (unbreakable is to harsh and he does flee on ocasions) because has basically and undead daemon burn victim thing. He should also have WS10 and A5 bass because he is THE UNCHALLENGED leader so he should outmatch an assassin (who needs to be updated by the way). His dragon should be a lot better, bring back the empower dragon if not just 1I higher than the stat 7 dragon from the HE book. That’s Malekith coverd. That’s him covered

Kriegsherr
20-11-2007, 11:33
Malekith should have Witchking Armour; 3+ Ward saves at all times, 5+ Armour saves. His cloak should do something (a better sea dragon cloak) +2AS +3Vs shooting. His destroyer should stay the same, the hand of khain should be S8 No armour saves (come on it’s basically a power fist). He should be a level 4 Wizard fro, the dark lore but can control it better so he can discard 1 dice from the spell he cast (before dispel attempts) so he can discard a 1 to negate a miss cast but the power level will be lower. He should Be Unbreakable because has basically and undead daemon burn victim thing. He should also have WS10 and A5 bass because he is THE UNCHALLENGED leader so he should outmatch an assassin (who needs to be updated by the way). His dragon should be a lot better, bring back the empower dragon if not just 1I higher than the stat 7 dragon from the HE book. That’s Malekith coverd. That’s him covered

So the whole menu please?

Really, I hate how GW has to place at least one "uber-character" into every WFB armybook. The next armybook then needs a "counter-uber-character" just to make sure billy-bob has a character that can stand up in a herohammer contest against joe-doe's superork.

And please, no "Powerweapons" in WFB.

MAGIC WEAPONS should be MAGIC WEAPONS. And while Powerweapons / Fist / all the other trashy CC-Weapons also are somehow "Magical" since 3rd edition in WH40k, keep the pseudo-scientific stuff out of WFB (with the exception of the Empire maybe).

I have no problem with a "Fist of Power" that magically enhances the wearers strength. This doesn't mean though that it has anything to do with a 40k equivalent or that the rules should reflect 40k rules. Besides, double strength in CC means something completly different in 40k and fantasy... in fantasy, the armour save of the opponent drops, while in 40k more opponents might face an "autokill" as there is no such thing as a damage value in 40k, so if you wanted to emulate a powerfist in WFB, the thing would need S8-10 and d3-d6 damage. this thing should hit like a cannonball! (Don't ask me why, its all twisted 40k fluff ;) )


About the hate / no hate please debate:
I think GW is very well aware of the implications of giving a whole army hate... at least I hope so, all Kohrnate armies show over and over how movement-influencing psychology rules can screw around with the game play.
So maybe its a different hate-rule? That excludes the movement implications?

thedodgeypanda
20-11-2007, 13:31
I started this 40k VS wfb thing, im just saying on the currnt moddle it looks like a power fist. It ignors armour saves and is S6 (dubble elf strength) Jeasus!

So im just saying it should be S8 no armour saves because hes S4 and think about it he can smash charriots then over run into a unit its perfect then he can lay even a blood thirster to rest.... well he might do if hes lucky. Because at the moment hes T3 5+ AS and a 2+ ward you dont get againsed magical atacks so everone just casts the hell out of him or you come againsed a magical dwarven cannon and he goes to hell

Kriegsherr
20-11-2007, 13:38
I started this 40k VS wfb thing, im just saying on the currnt moddle it looks like a power fist. It ignors armour saves and is S6 (dubble elf strength) Jeasus!

So im just saying it should be S8 no armour saves because hes S4 and think about it he can smash charriots then over run into a unit its perfect then he can lay even a blood thirster to rest.... well he might do if hes lucky. Because at the moment hes T3 5+ AS and a 2+ ward you dont get againsed magical atacks so everone just casts the hell out of him or you come againsed a magical dwarven cannon and he goes to hell

And we all really hate choices with weak spots don't we? :rolleyes:

It looks like a powerfist, it sounds like a powerfist, it smells like a powerfist, but: it isn't a powerfist! So it shouldn't have the rules of a powerfist :p

Does a lone character absolutely has to smash chariots? I don't think so. S6 is fine.

Akroma
20-11-2007, 14:01
i don't like the idea of malekith in the book at all...
if you look into the background he holds ground against tyrion & teclis... at the moment he looses against both of them. thats stupid as well...
so instread of bringing the uber character he has to be just kick him out and write some pages for him or make him ridiculously strong he has to be but set his points to 1,5k+ and he needs several hero slots. by that way everyone can see: wow this one is really a son of a b****, but no one can ever use him unless in 5k+ points battle... i mean thats their king, why should he go into a 3k point skirmishbattle no one cares about?

but really - special chars are not that important. other things first plz

AUN'SHI
20-11-2007, 15:40
IMO Malikith should be in the book he always has been why stop now? Plus he's my fav charactor :)

He shuold be similar to the old Malikith get rid of the power fist I mean like why would he have that? Did he kill a space marine?

His sword should steal somethings power and Malikith should get to choose what item is destroyed not your opponent (and he can use it)... That was the dumbest idea. I mean its like the designer of the rule didn't have a clue....

Armour 3+ ward 5+ heavy armour I can agree with that one also Malikith can only ever take 1 wound from any given thing (like cannon shot and do more then 1 damage).

He should get his damn circulit of iron magic resistance of 3 and he can get total power on any doubles somthign along those lines.. The fluff was horrible for this guy in the 6th edition... I recall something like and on his brow he wore the circilit of iron somthing of great magical power and blah blah game terms.... It did nothing :wtf: please someone do Malikith right

Oh and the spell eater sheild. When u cast a pell in this guy on a +4 its destroyed but the spell still goes through it's not a dispell and +1 armour save

WS8 BS6 ST5 T5 I8 W4 LD10 he should cause fear as before and have the option of riding a dragon or a flying chariot (which give him +3 to armour save).

and some special rules... can use all dark magic and get +2 to cast, allows more black gaurd to be used and every DE that is within 12" of him get +1 to their combat resolution.

Oh and the story about why Malikith rides this present dragon (because when its was born it killed the other dragons) please let that be no more... I mean Malikith would kick the crap out of that dragon if it killed his damn dragons...:wtf:

But these are only my ideas :)

Kriegsherr
20-11-2007, 15:46
i don't like the idea of malekith in the book at all...
if you look into the background he holds ground against tyrion & teclis... at the moment he looses against both of them. thats stupid as well...
so instread of bringing the uber character he has to be just kick him out and write some pages for him or make him ridiculously strong he has to be but set his points to 1,5k+ and he needs several hero slots. by that way everyone can see: wow this one is really a son of a b****, but no one can ever use him unless in 5k+ points battle... i mean thats their king, why should he go into a 3k point skirmishbattle no one cares about?

but really - special chars are not that important. other things first plz

I have to say, while I usually despise special characters, especially the uber-ones, there are some rare that strike as really good ideas.

crom for example shows the way a special characters should be represented ruleswise, and has a fluff that is really cool.

Krell is really interesting because of the whole "reanimated chaos warrior" fluff.

And while Malekith might have been beaten in the past, the whole "burnt until crispy" and "sealed into his armour" stuff really IS making for a cool evil character... its only that the rules and miniatures of that character are so boring I could puke.

First thing to do: either strip him of his mount or replace "generic boring black dragon" with something more interesting... a dragon that has been sealed into a thick metal armour the same way malekith was would be something new and interesting for example.

Second thing to do: Make him look impressive, not stupid like the current mini. Fluffwise Malekith always struck like being closer to a chaos lord / warrior in his appeareance, his manners/speak/way of thinking and his way of fighting than a dark elf. A very Mad, angry and bitter one, but alas.

Make him look big and bulky, and angry by making his face mask looking REALLY angry. His rules also should represent his violent, mad and angry nature. He should be the imporsonification of hate and anger. Maybe some at least fluffwise glimpses at how Khorne also is pleased with that pupil of Khaine would be nice ;)

Anyway, short sum up: Malekith is a really cool idea that could use different, more innovative rules and minis, without that meaning he has to be buffed, just being more different from jon doe elven dragonrider.


But agreed, special characters are the last problem with a new DE Armybook.

I'd like to see options for the cult of Slaanesh integrated into the book. But thats just me ;)

chivalrous
20-11-2007, 16:43
Second thing to do: Make him look impressive, not stupid like the current mini. Fluffwise Malekith always struck like being closer to a chaos lord / warrior in his appeareance, his manners/speak/way of thinking and his way of fighting than a dark elf. A very Mad, angry and bitter one, but alas.

Make him look big and bulky, and angry by making his face mask looking REALLY angry. His rules also should represent his violent, mad and angry nature. He should be the imporsonification of hate and anger. Maybe some at least fluffwise glimpses at how Khorne also is pleased with that pupil of Khaine would be nice ;)

Big and Bulky? You want him to look like a chaos Warrior don't you?

I'd much rather the model was a closer likeness to the picture of Malekith in the front of the current Army book. With a slender SHARP looking gauntlet and a face plate through which only his eyes can be seen. Also the antlers on his helmet could be much more slender that they are now, just look at Morathi's head-gear for an example.
The current model is already too bulky. I don't see why someone would want to make it moreso.

Finnigan2004
20-11-2007, 23:15
And it boggles the mind that someone can make a judgement on a book that hasn't even been fully written yet. :rolleyes:

Two points:

1. you obviously missed out on the high elf discussions. Lucky you :rolleyes:.

2. It's far easier to hold uninformed opinions when you do not have or allow facts to obstruct your viewpoint. Try watching Fox news some time, and see what I mean.

Oh, unexpected third point-- great point John Wayne. I totally agree :).

sulla
21-11-2007, 05:31
They genuinely expect this to level the playing field?

My head hurts.

What makes you think that GW expect hatred to level the playing field? Just because they include it as an army-wide rule, doesn't mean that they expect it to make DE good. It just means that that is how they see the character of the army developing.

They could still introduce lots of little rules to balance each unit individually just like in the WE book.

Freenut
21-11-2007, 06:27
Let me get this straight:...

They genuinely expect this to level the playing field?



No they do not. As has been stated from the frist post and several times after this is ONE of the new rules DE will get. I would think that GW expects the totality of the new rule to level the playing field.

Tastyfish
21-11-2007, 08:06
Two points:

1. you obviously missed out on the high elf discussions. Lucky you :rolleyes:.

2. It's far easier to hold uninformed opinions when you do not have or allow facts to obstruct your viewpoint. Try watching Fox news some time, and see what I mean.

Oh, unexpected third point-- great point John Wayne. I totally agree :).

We know how Dark elves play and there has been no mention at all of any drastic re-working to the army that would radically change their style. We also know how hatred works.

There is nothing wrong with putting the two together and thinking about how that would work (or not). That leaves us with;
a.) Its a bad plan, hopefully one that won't make it through playtesting (not that GW always spots these things anyway)
b.) There is infact a fairly drastic re-working to how they want the army to play
c.) There are going to be more rules on top of universal hatred that will counterbalance the drawbacks - though this doesn't appear to be the case since when we got this information we also learnt that Allessio Calvatore thinks that hatred fits the dark elves well and if hatred gets you out maneuvered you deserve it. Besides, we're starting to get really clumsy here far as rules go.

Admittedly, 'a' is open to debate (and sort of being debated here even, if you pick you're way through the people apparently shocked and appalled at the discussion of rumours in the news and rumour forum) since its a fairly tricky thing to judge what with the only real comparison being dwarfs with a radically different play style to the druchii. However if 'a' stands and this is upheld by GW's playtesters then one of the other routes is likely to be the way they go (and also d: Not actually having universal hatred)

Akroma
21-11-2007, 13:24
i just don't understand why hate should fit DE?
i think they look down to other races like humans and obviously hate the HE - why hate greenskins who never invade naggaroth? why hate vampires? common...
in principle everyone else should hate them because the DE raid their coasts.

with cold one knights, chariots and witches they already have 3 risky factors in their army... adding hate will make them even more uncontrollable. we are talking about expensive, 'should-be -reliable' elves...
besides that makes it very easy to pull apart a defensive style army with certain cheap races, so some playstyles of this flexible army are gone or at least heavily reduced. i am not convinced of this.
where is the drawback of striking first for example? if you get into the flanks of swordmasters you deserve to die or what? :rolleyes:

maybe one can explain to my why hatred would be so 'fitting' - besides the increased damage potential

Lord Khabal
21-11-2007, 13:54
If DE really get hatred, then the cult of Kaine will be very pleased. Adding the rumour that the cauldron will be an lord upgrade (similar to the anvil of doom), it will be a re-roll fest, which works really well with poison. And you could keep the 4 RBT to kill stuff with good AS (cavalry), which are the witches doom...

UlricDarksoul
21-11-2007, 14:18
i would think that all 2x1 are going to be gone in the new edition... this watching how the shooty HE don't get the 2x1 for their troops (although they have another chart, but still)

i wouldn't count on having the 2x1 for chariots or bolt throwers until the book is released (or the rumour is confirm about this stuff)

Scactha
21-11-2007, 14:24
Let me get this straight: they are taking an army that, at its core, is about being supremely mobile with precision strikes
Now that is just the current incarnation of the DE list. Like HE was cavalry + magic. In other words that is not ground for argument. It could aswell turn into a defensive list of cheap citizen infantry with rxb and spears in one unit thatīs the main stay unit. Who knows? But DONīT expect core DR just because the latest variant list had them.

Urgat
21-11-2007, 14:52
i just don't understand why hate should fit DE?

It's just a rule name. It's simpler to just take that rule and do something like "Dark Elves dispise every other races, and benefit from the hate rule" rather than take the old rule and give it a different name. I doubt they're going to say that they now go balistic when they see a skeleton.

UlricDarksoul
21-11-2007, 14:53
Now that is just the current incarnation of the DE list. Like HE was cavalry + magic. In other words that is not ground for argument. It could aswell turn into a defensive list of cheap citizen infantry with rxb and spears in one unit thatīs the main stay unit. Who knows? But DONīT expect core DR just because the latest variant list had them.



true, but fluffwise, DE ARE movile and effective, as it should be a corsair fleet. I don't know how they'll make it , but anyway, they are goign to consider this (as they have considered fluff in the latest AB)

Akroma
21-11-2007, 15:38
but why are DE considered as mobile?
only because they fill their core units up with DR... infantry with M5 is not that uncommon... neither is a hero on flying monster.
if i have a look on the slower cavalry & chariots i don't think they are more mobile or more precise than every other race - only difference are DR.
and when i see the current changes i am pretty sure they won't be core anymore (see HE with SH)... with corsairs, spears, rxbows there are already 3 other unit types. if they redo the cityguard there is no more room for DR for sure...
besides, if you think of the fluff more units like spear elves should be in their lists to represent the large part of normal citizen in their army.

bdickj
21-11-2007, 16:06
Malekith-

I'd like to see this-

Mounted on a cold one chariot drawn by 4 cold ones that are immune to stupidity. Eternal Hatred Vrs. HE.

Stats- S5, T4, W4, A5.
Otherwise the same.

Level 4 wizard knows all 6 spells from Dark magic.

Supreme leader- BSB + General 18" range, if he dies, all DE models take immediate panic check.
Infinite Malice- For every model Malekith slays in combat he gains an additional attack up to his basic attack characteristic (So in essence, up to a maximum of 5)

Ancient Enmity- Such is Malekith's hatred of the High Elf civilization, that he will bring war to them at all costs, sacrificing hundreds of soliders to his whim. Therefore, any army lead by Malekith is used to the sacrifice of hundreds of troops to earn victory. As such, all models in the Dark Elf Army are immune to panic from friendly troops of any kind with Malekith as general. Note that they still take panic if Malekith is slain by the enemy.

Magic items- Destroyer- As is.
Armor of Midnight- 2+armor save, 4+ ward Save.
Circlet of Iron- +2 to all casting Rolls. Once per battle acts as a power stone or soul stone.
The Black Chariot- Malekith's chariot is imbued with sorcerous, unholy power. All of its impact hits are considered magical, and the chariot has a 4+ ward save.

Haquim
21-11-2007, 16:15
i just don't understand why hate should fit DE?
i think they look down to other races like humans and obviously hate the HE - why hate greenskins who never invade naggaroth? why hate vampires? common...
in principle everyone else should hate them because the DE raid their coasts.

with cold one knights, chariots and witches they already have 3 risky factors in their army... adding hate will make them even more uncontrollable. we are talking about expensive, 'should-be -reliable' elves...
besides that makes it very easy to pull apart a defensive style army with certain cheap races, so some playstyles of this flexible army are gone or at least heavily reduced. i am not convinced of this.
where is the drawback of striking first for example? if you get into the flanks of swordmasters you deserve to die or what? :rolleyes:

maybe one can explain to my why hatred would be so 'fitting' - besides the increased damage potential

Already done, but i'll try again: DE believe as an ABSOLUTE TRUTH they are ENTITLED to world domination.
They consider all other races and peoples to be their inferiors. Other elves are traitors of the worst kind (for they refuse to aknowdledge the rightful rule of Malekith and the superiority of the elves of Nagarythe), or mongrels living in armony with animals and spirits instead of subjugating them (as DE would do).
The fact is these supposedly inferior races RESIST DE and often DEFEAT them.
From the DE point of view these beasts and betrayers are stopping them to achieve their MANIFEST DESTINY. From this comes the hate DE feel towards all other peoples. How do they dare to oppose their right to enslave and slaughter them?

As I said before DE are similar to the Nazi: they hate those who oppose their ascension to world domination, especially those peoples they consider genetically inferiors (the Nazis hated the Jew and the eastern peoples, and wanted to slaughter the former and enslave the latter, for example).

Akroma
21-11-2007, 16:54
@Haquim: hmm thats not completly wrong - but if you read all those Malus Darkblade books you'll see them more as coldblooded, plan making intriguing madmen.
thats why i think hate won't fit to them - leaving a battle formation to kill some fleeing peasants may be fine for witches, but not for well trained warriors.

and besides malekith reminds me more of Sauron - the dark lord who tries to conquer the world from his tower... if you see the pic from the book with this fullplate...

and he should be more a warrior (with some nice sorcerer skills of course) and morathi should be the real magic threat...
she is older than every other sorcerer or witch in the warhammer world (maybe exept lord kroac, dunno... even nagash could be a young boy compared to her.... who knows who old she really is!?)
i don't know why she is so bad in comparison to every other character...

Haquim
21-11-2007, 17:13
@Haquim: hmm thats not completly wrong - but if you read all those Malus Darkblade books you'll see them more as coldblooded, plan making intriguing madmen.
thats why i think hate won't fit to them - leaving a battle formation to kill some fleeing peasants may be fine for witches, but not for well trained warriors.

and besides malekith reminds me more of Sauron - the dark lord who tries to conquer the world from his tower... if you see the pic from the book with this fullplate...

and he should be more a warrior (with some nice sorcerer skills of course) and morathi should be the real magic threat...
she is older than every other sorcerer or witch in the warhammer world (maybe exept lord kroac, dunno... even nagash could be a young boy compared to her.... who knows who old she really is!?)
i don't know why she is so bad in comparison to every other character...

Yep, but getting hatred doesn't mean they become pshycos, they don't get frenzy (btw I know for a fact someone in the studio wanted to give them frenzy...). hatred is the best existing rule to represent their spiteful nature.
I believe the inspiration for malekith was the Witch King of Angmar rather than sauron. From what Cavatore told me IF they redo malekith he will be as powerfull as he deserves to be, and I think that means he'll be a great mage AND a great warrior I think.

Akroma
21-11-2007, 17:49
yeah think you finally convinced me...
i never said its unthinkable - but i need to get used to this.
point is when i had to play vs HE hatred always was very nice - but they can't send suicide units to get advantage from it because their units are expensive as well...
when you think of skaven or goblins this could be completely different.
guess thats the fate for each druchiigeneral - whereas HE become rid of most of their flaws (being so 'fragile' and not having powerful attacks) thx to the fact their enemies will have a real problem to make some attacks at all, giving ward saves for their units and first strike with great weapons (with S4 elves... i am just missing the T4 HE :P ) - they have to take another point into account... sometimes i feel like a goblinplayer when seeing my stupid CoK unit moving right in front of an enemy chariot...
hopefully DE will kick ass at least - then i can live with that :angel:

if you see your sources again plz tell them to boost morathi & the witches (maybe -1 to hit), DE army needs bitches like that :D

edit: yes of course you are right... the WITCH KING of angmar is the main source;
i heard of an idea making witches and corsairs skimisher which could really be fitting for pirates or a frenzy unit. but i don't know if they are useful without ranks (could be compensated by -1 to hit maybe - at least for witches)

damn i just can't wait to hear more rumours (or the get the armybook... *g*)

Scorpioni
21-11-2007, 18:09
If we get Hatred.. AT LEAST call the rule 'Khaine's Wrath' or something so that all those Khaine = Khorne threads may end once and for all. Frenzy =/= Hatred ^^

Who's with me? :p

Heretic Burner
21-11-2007, 19:06
No they do not. As has been stated from the frist post and several times after this is ONE of the new rules DE will get. I would think that GW expects the totality of the new rule to level the playing field.

Except they are adding a rule that is a major disadvantage in many areas. In other words, in order to make this hatred rule fit they are going to have to radically change the entire army - a horrible idea as many DE players ilke DE the way they are right now! Surely they can be strengthened but it is never a good idea changing an entire army's feel as all they are going to do is alienate current players.

Horrible idea bound for failure - in other words entirely in line with the current crop of 7th edition books.

EvC
21-11-2007, 19:10
When you have no idea what the other rules will be, it's stupid to cast judgement on whether they will work or not. For all we know the rule might simply be that they re-roll all misses rather than being proper hatred; or they might have another rule saying they never have to pursue, even from frenzied or hatred.

Let's at least wait until we hear what the rumours are before we condemn them...

furucius
21-11-2007, 22:30
I find it surprising that everybody is only talking about the bad side of hatred, and how the good side is not nearly as good ASF for the high elves. If you run the numbers when high elves and dark elves fight hatred will make it so if dark elves and high elves have roughly the same stats, the dark elves will beat the high elves in combat even when the high elves strike first. The high elves would win only if they have great weapons and the dark elves don't, but they would tie if they both have great weapons, and this is all with the high elves striking first.
I would say that even though you have a disadvantage that crops up now and then, it is a small price to pay for for the dark elf troops to be more powerful than the high elf troops. Characters may be a different story, but for your infantry I think the question is whether or not hatred makes the dark elves too powerful.

Petey
22-11-2007, 00:29
furucius

12 high elf attacks with great weapon become 6 hits, which becomes 5 wounds
5 Dark elves die, leaving 7 to swing back becoming 5 hits, which may become 5 wounds

12 HE w/ handweapon shield and light armor vs similar DE
HE get 6 hits, thus 3 wounds, 1.5 die after saves (rounds to 2)
DE get 10 swings and this becomes 7.5 hits, which turns into roughly 4 wounds, so about 3 kills after armor

But all that math is a lie, the units don't actually work like that.
Instead let s look at units which exist
HE Spearmen unit of 20, ranked 5x4 vs Corsairs ranked the same way for the same points
15 attacks turn into 7.5 hits thusly to 4 wounds, of which about 3 are killed.
DE get 4 attacks back 3 hit, 1.5 wound, so one HE dies.

White lion unit of 10 vs 15 Excecutioners, same cost
lions attack and hit 3 times wounding 3 times, excecutioners get no saves
2 excecutioners attack back and at best kill 2 lions, they still lose.

The math works out for wider formations fighting, but no one runs units like that. Additionally, you get no real bonus for doing so, as your opponent can have a small frontage and negate the usefulness of wide units. So the numbers are more telling in the units we actually use.
If the units were the same, your supposition would be correct, but as they aren't (in any way) the math is not accurate as well.

Hatred is nowhere near as good as striking first, additionally it comes with a disadvantage with striking first is void of.

JonnyTHM
22-11-2007, 01:40
The math works out for wider formations fighting, but no one runs units like that. Additionally, you get no real bonus for doing so, as your opponent can have a small frontage and negate the usefulness of wide units. So the numbers are more telling in the units we actually use.
If the units were the same, your supposition would be correct, but as they aren't (in any way) the math is not accurate as well.

Hatred is nowhere near as good as striking first, additionally it comes with a disadvantage with striking first is void of.

I don't normally like to get into these arguments... but your logic is terribly flawed here.

Executioners should never be in 5 wide formation, both of these units would be in 7 wide formation... and it does make a difference for the math, particularly due to the whole issue of whole numbers vs. decimals.

Dranthar
22-11-2007, 02:40
I think it's entirely fitting for the Dark Elves to hate everyone.

If your army was forced to languish for years with poor rules while every other army got all kinds of awesome, wouldn't you be pissed? :D

Heretic Burner
22-11-2007, 03:31
Dark Elves are free to have the "all kinds of awesome" O&G rules they want! Take them please! :D

knightwire
22-11-2007, 03:39
I think it's entirely fitting for the Dark Elves to hate everyone.

If your army was forced to languish for years with poor rules while every other army got all kinds of awesome, wouldn't you be pissed? :D

lol!

You sir win!

Dendo Star
22-11-2007, 04:33
I think it's entirely fitting for the Dark Elves to hate everyone.

If your army was forced to languish for years with poor rules while every other army got all kinds of awesome, wouldn't you be pissed? :D

Poor rules?! Your chariots are T5! T5, man!:chrome:

redbaron998
22-11-2007, 05:54
Someone mentioned that hatred would not balance DE against HE, GOOD I say. THen we will be cheaper point wise or have other cool rules. I doubt DE will be like the HE ASF's one rule to rule them all thing.

DE I imagine will have more different kinds of rules...or cheaper units, eithier is good.

silashand
22-11-2007, 06:32
DE I imagine will have more different kinds of rules...or cheaper units, eithier is good.

I want 3-for-1 cold one chariots if they keep that idiotic stupidity rule... ;)

Cheers, Gary

Freenut
22-11-2007, 07:59
Except they are adding a rule that is a major disadvantage in many areas. In other words, in order to make this hatred rule fit they are going to have to radically change the entire army - a horrible idea as many DE players ilke DE the way they are right now! Surely they can be strengthened but it is never a good idea changing an entire army's feel as all they are going to do is alienate current players.

Horrible idea bound for failure - in other words entirely in line with the current crop of 7th edition books.

Will try this again. Hatred, while it can be used against you, is an advantage. Most would agree rerolling missed to hits in the 1st. round of combat is a huge advantage. Further if you are aware of this weekness, you are allowed to counter moves you opponent makes to exploit said weekness. I fail to see why this such a huge deal.

As to the "Feel of the army" I do not see hatred as a huge change. I think it is kind of in line with the way I see dark elves. Haquim's example from earlier in this tread pretty much sums it up for me. And from some of the other people I have talked to I know I am not the only one who thinks this. For what it is worth I don't think the rule will be called hatred but somthing like "racial pride" or "malice" or something. But a rose by any other name...

And hell for all we know there will be some other rule that allows DE to not pursue if certain things are met. It is way to early to to latch on to one rumour and write of the entire army list as crap.

Oh and in case this comes up: as it seems to in these type of discussions; I play dark elves. Have about 9,000 + points.

Electrix
22-11-2007, 08:30
I don't understand the whole "hatred doesnt fit DE" thing. In the Army Book there are several instances of the DE doing horrible things to their prisoners and slaves. While this alone does not entail hatred of all other races, their general outlook provided by Furion reveals that the dark elves have a great deal of animosity for other races. Seeing as they have also honed their skills throughout the years and that they almost never leave people alive in a villiage they raid, it makes sense. Think of it this way, the rerolls of hatred can signify their prowess with weaponry, while the must pursue issue is dealt with in their drive to take slaves, mainly corsairs do this, although there is evidence in the book to suggest war parties do as well such as the fluff about Yeurl's battle with the bretonnians. The Black Guard also have the eternal hatred rule and they are the most elite warriors in the force, supposedly.

I don't know how tactically valid this rule is, nor am I contributing in any way to a strategical discussion about the rammifcations of this rule, I just don't have the experience to say. For the above reasons, though I find it an acceptable fluff thing within the current parameters.

druchiianointed
22-11-2007, 11:00
i think the hatred should not be introduced,
it's the thing, you will have to overrun!
being totally open to flank attacks, or even worse rear attacks....
fluff wise it could fit in the theme...

but i would like more specialised rules for each unit!!
like the shield handweapon front rank, spear shield second rank..
executioners should have killing blow!! the one strike kill was nice!!!!
many a knight fell under their blades..

witch elves should have some sort of ward save!!
maibe just like bretonnia,
witch elves, have ward save untill they are broken in combat, just like they lose their franzy! it would be fair i think!!

cold ones should realy have 2 attack's or frenzy!

really dark elf models look just great how they are right now!
in my opnion the only thing that should change is the cold one, maibe the mounted sorceress!

Lord Khabal
22-11-2007, 11:51
Well, the new cold ones surely kick ass! If I didn't had 20, I would paint a new set.

As for the rest of the range, yeah, the minis are very cool. Wouldn't change a thing, except for the blood cauldron and the hydra.

DE have the MOST beautiful minis in WHFB. FACT!!!!

Tastyfish
22-11-2007, 18:46
Thinking about it, a modified version of hatred (i.e without the loss of control) along the lines of 'precise cruelty' could work quite well to bring across the feel of the race - something to emphasise how the Dark elves aren't the normal frothing barbarians that comprise a lot of the evil races. Rather than chaos berserkers and orc thugs, you have a highly trained army that specialise in knowing precisely where to strike in order to hurt you (both on an individual level and at the strategic level).

Just wondering, but do you think something like having the option to use the old 'Flank Attack' deployment could serve as an alternative to SoA? Its not going to help in a straight up fight against an Asur unit but might turn the tables enough so that its a bit easier to get a more favourable match up.

txamil
23-11-2007, 05:46
How bout roll 3 dice for pursue, taking best two?

Plus other unit specific improvements obviously.

Scactha
23-11-2007, 10:31
Yea, lets have the cake and eat it too! Dour, introvert and taciturn Dwarves go howling mad chasing after greenskins so why wouldnīt psychotic elves?

StanMcKim
23-11-2007, 16:33
Dark Elves are cruel. What is cruel? Scaring people. What scares people? When the cruel things start chasing them. What do cruel things do to things that run away from them? Take absolute delight in killing them all.
I think Hatred on Dark Eldar makes a lot of sense.
-Stan

UlricDarksoul
23-11-2007, 17:40
Dark Elves are cruel. What is cruel? Scaring people. What scares people? When the cruel things start chasing them. What do cruel things do to things that run away from them? Take absolute delight in killing them all.
I think Hatred on Dark Eldar makes a lot of sense.
-Stan

not quite a mistake, but in this system it changes from age.


I believe that hatred is just the way it summarise the result. They repeat fails, period. There is a rule that makes you do this = hate, ergo, DE hates ;)


is not a new thing... they could put another name to it, as SoA is equal to ASF.

Like Spiteful: works as Hate

Heretic Burner
23-11-2007, 21:01
How bout roll 3 dice for pursue, taking best two?

Plus other unit specific improvements obviously.

Finally a good suggestion that builds upon DE's traditional mobility based army. And best two may not necessarily mean biggest two as strategically it may very well be best to pursue a smaller distance. I like this one. Very good.

Granted its going to take a lot more than that to bring DE up to other armies however it remains an advantage useful against virtually any type of army out there without breaking core mechenics so its a solid wide spread rule.

Murray the Demonic Skull
23-11-2007, 21:10
Yea, lets have the cake and eat it too! Dour, introvert and taciturn Dwarves go howling mad chasing after greenskins so why wouldnīt psychotic elves?

Exactly! Hatred is the perfect rule for Dark Elves. What Dark Elf would be able to resist chasing after a fleeing enemy. They would all relish the opportunity to stab their foes in the back and violate their remains.
The idea that their hatred should be modified to let them out of the downside of Hatred is simply ludicrous power-gaming, something all to common in this hobby. People need to come to terms with the fact that all armies have weaknesses and an uber-unbeatable army will simply mean that no-one will want to play with you. This rules fiddling and hypothetical alterations to a rule that MIGHT be happening is endemic of the "my army must be better than everyone else's" attitude.