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The Guy
14-11-2007, 15:41
Just thinking...
Would a Ratling ever be trained to be a vindicare assassin?
As much as I hate the little freaks they are better snipers then humans so is it possible? Would the vindicare temple allow it?

floyd pinkerton
14-11-2007, 15:47
I'm doubting it, since although they are better snipers, I doubt they have the intelligence/common sense to do other 'assassin' things:D

good conversion idea though:D

Chilltouch
14-11-2007, 16:00
Would an Ogryn ever be trained to be a Space Marine?

Probably not - although they are by far more physically suitable for the job, their mentality is utterly ridiculous for the job.

Ikkaan
14-11-2007, 16:06
Generally Abhumans generally donīt reach the upper branches of the imperium. Probably in cause of racial prejudices (Ogryns are dumb [okay, they are not the brightest bulbs in the box], ratlings steal and the squats are stumpy alcoholics).

To be honest: I donīt think it is possible to rise to a top rank, even in IG regiments that consist of abhumans. Or has anyone ever heard from an ogryn general or a ratling fleet admiral?

Ashnari Doomsong
14-11-2007, 16:17
To be honest: I donīt think it is possible to rise to a top rank, even in IG regiments that consist of abhumans. Or has anyone ever heard from an ogryn general or a ratling fleet admiral?
Man. I am so making an Ogryn admiral for my next 40k character.

Leunam
14-11-2007, 16:41
I doubt Ratlings could be trained to be Vindicare Temple Assassins. On top of being expert marksmen, it isn't too far of a stretch to guess that they are pretty formidable in close-combat, whereas, Ratlings are not. On top of the (possibly) mental inadequacies Ratlings suffer, they aren't exactly physically imposing.

Cry of the Wind
14-11-2007, 17:02
I think the biggest reason why not is the fact they are 'mutants'. They may not be mutants in the sense of having crab claws or anything like that but they are still a mutation of humanity (though a stable one). In all cases I can think of physical mutants are looked down on if not burned as heretics by humanity (even the Navigators need to hide their true forms when they get older). There is that, and the fact they won't be very good for the job mentally or physically. It takes more than a good eye to be a Vindicare.

mistformsquirrel
14-11-2007, 17:32
Ratlings, Ogryns and the like are definitely not looked well upon. They aren't thought of as directly badly as say, Mutants - but there's a very condescending attitude toward both.

Ogryns probably are fairly dim - but I think its intentionally exaggerated in much of the fluff because its from the Imperial perspective - it gives them a reason to feel superior to someone so physically powerful. (I mean, an Ogryn is at least as strong, if not stronger, than a Space Marine; that should tell you something right there!)

Likewise, I suspect the 'petty crime' of ratlings is greatly exaggerated in the same way real life minorities are sometimes suspected of being criminally inclined.

As for actually becoming a Vindicare...

I think it depends to a degree. I doubt it would happen, but I'm not convinced it'd be prejudice in this case, as it is fairly obvious the Officio Assassinarium plays loose with the rules from the start (C'tan Phase blade xenotech anyone?)...

However, a Ratling's primary abilities are a small size (for hiding), and a good steady aim. These are important for a Vindicare, but there's FAR more to it than that. They need to be able to move *quickly* should the situation warrant it; they have to be masters of stealth - movement and location hiding both; they have to get behind enemy lines, alone, handle themselves in all kinds of combat etc...

Generally a ratling is going to have trouble due to having shorter legs, lower strength and stamina, etc...

Its one of those things I doubt is likely - possible; but a lot of it is going to rely on if the Ratling can pass the necessary tests; and thats going to be a bit hard.

Burnthem
14-11-2007, 20:03
However, a Ratling's primary abilities are a small size (for hiding), and a good steady aim. These are important for a Vindicare, but there's FAR more to it than that. They need to be able to move *quickly* should the situation warrant it; they have to be masters of stealth - movement and location hiding both; they have to get behind enemy lines, alone, handle themselves in all kinds of combat etc....


Exactly, being an assassin requires far more than a steady hand and a good rifle, all of the Officio Assassinorum operatives are incredibly well trained in everything from Hand to Hand combat to Origami ;)

Temmy
14-11-2007, 20:03
Temple assassins are considered to be manifestations of the emperor's divine wrath

To have a mere ratling become a manifestation of the *human* emperor's wrath would probably be considered a blasphemy of the highest order.

Visionary
14-11-2007, 20:07
I would've thought the tech to make smaller suits and equipment would've been lost anyway .

Burnthem
14-11-2007, 20:38
I would've thought the tech to make smaller suits and equipment would've been lost anyway .

Not really, you just *make it smaller*.

Dont get carried away with the whole 'We can't make anything new at all. Ever.' rubbish that seems to be floating around at the moment :)

muskrat
14-11-2007, 20:39
actually, the art of killing with origami shurikens is rumored to be the last temple of the assassinorium that hasnt been named.

Cranicare assassins and their deadly ap1 papercuts.

Norsehawk
14-11-2007, 21:14
I am going to have to look into making a conversion now... a halfling on stilts with a body stocking going over the feet and down the legs of the silts, maybe a toe sticking thru a part of the stocking.

downundercadet07
14-11-2007, 21:44
Plus, a ratling sticks out. I would imagine that when a vindicare is going on world, say infiltrating as a pilgrim or a mendicant or whatever, he has been picked and modified so that he isn't particularly tall, short, handsome, ugly, or memorable in any way. Somebody that you would forget about the moment you weren't looking at them. While a ratling might be able to match them for field craft, matching them for urban and population infiltration would be impossible.

Taipan
14-11-2007, 22:15
Why is this a topic? Pretty obvious from what was said in Codex; Assassins that the selection criteria for Assassins are even more strict than for Astartes. Seen any Ratlings in power armour lately?

Ikkaan
15-11-2007, 09:37
That we donīt get to see them doesnīt mean they donīt exist. Whole worlds completely populated with ratlings exist as we know. The planetary governor is a ratling. The PDF consists of ratlings. The elite bodyguard of the governor is a platoon of ratlings. And these may actually have power armour (manufactured locally).

EDIT: Never thought of it...they drive ratling sized cars, have ratling sized cities...

Gorbad Ironclaw
15-11-2007, 09:46
But they are not a very martially inclined race, and since assassins really are the best of the best I have a hard time imagining a ratling really qualifying. There is a lot more to Vindicare assassins than being able to shoot straight. That's really the least of it.

Gdolkin
15-11-2007, 12:32
They don't have the discipline to hide up a tree for ten days without food.

Commisar BoB
15-11-2007, 13:33
Would an Ogryn ever be trained to be a Space Marine?


Could you imagine how powerful a Space Marine would be if they use an Ogryn as the base. I mean they can up the IQ of them, it is already done with the Bone 'eads. What you would have would be a chapter of Space Marines that would be Tough (T5 and Multi-wound) and Strong(S6 maybe) even by Space Marine standards. They would be perfect for CC and breaking fortifications....and not to mentions over 10 feet tall. I think it is time to make a new chapter on the Ogryn Homeworld.

Ikkaan
15-11-2007, 14:43
Could you imagine how powerful a Space Marine would be if they use an Ogryn as the base. I mean they can up the IQ of them, it is already done with the Bone 'eads. What you would have would be a chapter of Space Marines that would be Tough (T5 and Multi-wound) and Strong(S6 maybe) even by Space Marine standards. They would be perfect for CC and breaking fortifications....and not to mentions over 10 feet tall. I think it is time to make a new chapter on the Ogryn Homeworld.

<rant on>
You dare to suggest an unholy fusion of abhuman scum and the holy organs of the space marines ? I shall report you to the inquisition at once !
</rant>

No, really...it would be cool, but i would reserve this heretic experiment for a rogue admech magos...it would be more fitting for a roleplaying campaign: the vile magos unveils his plans to design something even more dangerous than the space marines...the space ogryns! They would be unstoppable, even superior to the space marines! And stupid...stupid as the day is long! Masters of Stupidity!

Wait...they wouldnīt do stupid things, or would they? ;-)

heretics bane
15-11-2007, 17:05
Nah ratlings are more very cheap but effective snipers plus they steal so handing one a very powerful sniper rifle and expecting it back after words would be difficult along with the various rare and expensive stuff vindicators come equipped with. As said before they dont have the discipline to hide up a tree for days on end.

The Guy
15-11-2007, 20:30
Why is this a topic? Pretty obvious from what was said in Codex; Assassins that the selection criteria for Assassins are even more strict than for Astartes. Seen any Ratlings in power armour lately?

Well excuse me for not being able to afford books that were probably around when I was still in primary school.

Alessander
16-11-2007, 00:19
The Imperial Assassins are all trained from a very young age and a screened for physical "purity". Abhumans would most likely fail the screen.

silence
16-11-2007, 06:37
[QUOTE=Cry of the Wind;2093465] (even the Navigators need to hide their true forms when they get older). QUOTE]

Just out of interest, apart from the third eye what else happens to navigators as they get older?

Taipan
16-11-2007, 10:38
@ silence;

WTF, mate. This is about Vindicare Ratlings, not Navigators.

@ That Guy;

I don't have the book either, I use wikipedia/lexicanum. Since those people quote from the book, I can trust the information is reasonably accurate. Anyway, simple 40k logic dictates that abhumans, or indeed average humans, can never be Assassins. It takes an extra-ordinary human, who happens to be spotted by the Inquisiton early (and not inducted by an SM chapter) who ends up facing the trials. Then divide that pool by say 200 (assuming Marine-like casualty/drop out rates), and thats the number of Assassins in any one Temple. Ratling wouldn't even pass the first hurdle, let alone have a hope of competing with full humans in the later stages.

Flame Boy
17-11-2007, 23:11
[QUOTE=Cry of the Wind;2093465] (even the Navigators need to hide their true forms when they get older). QUOTE]

Just out of interest, apart from the third eye what else happens to navigators as they get older?

Just to tie this up, they seem to suffer from a host of minor mutations as they age. Whether that's due to exposure to the warp, genetic instability due to being tampered with way back in the mists of time, or the generations of inter-house breeding that's been taking place, is not known as far as I'm aware.

I seem to reember that Temple assassins are piled onto spacecraft and forced to fight each other in increasingly brutal training to weed out the weak before they arrive at the training locations to undergo any tough training or the required surgery takes place. The Ratling would have his neck broken in ten minutes by someone that wants to live just as much as him, but has more muscle mass to help him. :(

Endemion
18-11-2007, 09:01
Bear in mind that while the vindicare is first and foremost a sniper, they are also highly skilled in other forms of combat. I'd say this rules out ratlings pretty emphatically.

The Gothic Me
18-11-2007, 09:31
Could you imagine how powerful a Space Marine would be if they use an Ogryn as the base. I mean they can up the IQ of them, it is already done with the Bone 'eads. What you would have would be a chapter of Space Marines that would be Tough (T5 and Multi-wound) and Strong(S6 maybe) even by Space Marine standards. They would be perfect for CC and breaking fortifications....and not to mentions over 10 feet tall. I think it is time to make a new chapter on the Ogryn Homeworld.

If the surgical upgrading process is so genetically selective that it can't even be performed on women, then I doubt it would work on Ogryns.

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-11-2007, 09:39
@ silence;

WTF, mate. This is about Vindicare Ratlings, not Navigators.

He's perfectly in his right to ask about Navigators. Don't be so harsh.

On Ratling Vindicares:

An Assassin potential, IIRC, is one who has, at a very early age, proven themselves to be a proficient killer in many ways, shapes and forms. After they are brought to a Temple, they are subject to tests physically and mentally beyond the capacity of many humans, and tests designed for only the best of humans (in more ways than physical, mental and faith-wise too). They must be incredible by human standards. Judging from their profile, they are subject to similar bio-tampering as Space Marines. That sort of process is incredibly risky, even on normal humans. To do such things on an abhuman would be a waste of resources, because the process is so finicky and mysterious to those doing it that to modify it for the undoubtedly completely different physiology of a Ratling would be impossible.

Same goes for Ogryn Space Marines. The altered physiology of these abhumans, physically and mentally, would make integration with Astartes processes and equipment next to impossible. So many things go wrong (I think like 10% of initiates max make it to be Space Marines) normally that such a process on what is essentially a different species would be wasteful, result in a long and painful death for the aspirant Ogryn, and essentially unnecessary when said Ogryn could be given a ripper gun and a flak jacket and thrown at the enemy with perhaps greater effect (than what is shown on the tabletop) versus the resources it would take to create an Ogryn Marine.

I hate to shoot this down, but really, I don't think it can be done. For either theory.

EDIT:


If the surgical upgrading process is so genetically selective that it can't even be performed on women, then I doubt it would work on Ogryns.

You said in a few dozen words what I said in a few hundred. Good job, man.

Champsguy
18-11-2007, 15:32
Now that THAT'S been settled...

Ratling Marines and Ogryn Vindicares?

Actually, other than the complex chemicals involved, I see no reason why an Ogryn couldn't become an Eversor. No think, just kill.

Some of these would make fantastic modeling projects.

thearchiver
18-11-2007, 22:13
Ratlings love there food to much to pass any of the assassins physical training.

Have a habit of buggering off to find the nearest KFC making them ill suited for the 4day vindicator stakeouts.

A ratling in the assassin gear would look like some gimp or Mexican midget wrestler than one of the deadest long range killers in the game.

Direhamster
19-11-2007, 12:00
Genarally we can assume that there *are* exceptional, both psyhically and mentally ratlings - hell there is few of them, after all so there is a lot to choose from and I don't like generalization like they like to eat they can't be vindicare's. Hell, Polish people like to drink, and still some of them become surgeons... picture if you will... Of course ratlings aren't exactly human, but still they are not identical necrons, are they?

I can imagine one pissed off, sociopathic ratling qualifying as assasin- one doesn't have to be particularly tall or strong if one has reflexes and sufficiently poisoned blade handy, however I think, even though some of them would probably meet the criteria, noone would ever look for them in the first place. Mostly because they are victims to prejudice, and the entire training conditioning thingy would be to costly to be justifiable.

So in short, no ratling or ogryn vindicares, calliduses or eversors, however I just can't rule out "clueless" ogryn assasin... :D

Cheers

Direhamster

Spacewolves vs Thousandsons
20-11-2007, 16:32
[QUOTE=Cry of the Wind;2093465] (even the Navigators need to hide their true forms when they get older). QUOTE]

Just out of interest, apart from the third eye what else happens to navigators as they get older?

simple they mutate horribly, for good examples read the book wolfblade

and as to the ratling vindicare thing , not gonna happenaside from the training they go trough i dought that the ratling would even be able to lift the exitus rifle they use, that and even if it could the recoil would rip his arm off wouldnt it?
ogryn space marines, strange concept but still not gonna happen, though there are members of the inquisitiopn who use ogryns as body guards

Burnthem
20-11-2007, 16:59
Are you sure all navigators mutate horribly - there have been plenty of descriptions of incredibly old navigators that are simply extremely frail and borderline schizophrenic, but not mutated. Its possible of course, but i expect far from the norm. :)

dr.oetk3r
21-11-2007, 00:25
Why dont we have ratling assassins or ogryn space marines?

...Because it would look stupid

Alessander
21-11-2007, 02:52
Now that THAT'S been settled...

Ratling Marines and Ogryn Vindicares?

Actually, other than the complex chemicals involved, I see no reason why an Ogryn couldn't become an Eversor. No think, just kill.

Some of these would make fantastic modeling projects.

That'd be interesting. The ultimate deadly killer... who is afraid of the dark


Well excuse me for not being able to afford books that were probably around when I was still in primary school.

Now that makes me feel old. Since when is a supplement to the last edition of 40K now a "rare archive' item? If I remember correctly, it was originaly a free addon in White Dwarf, then got republished as it's own booklet.

Champsguy
21-11-2007, 06:32
Now that makes me feel old. Since when is a supplement to the last edition of 40K now a "rare archive' item? If I remember correctly, it was originaly a free addon in White Dwarf, then got republished as it's own booklet.

Oh... hell. Is he talking about THAT assassins codex??? I thought they were talking about the one from second edition. I guess the 3rd ed codex WAS the one that cost 5 bucks.

CRAP.

I was in college then.

Imperialis_Dominatus
21-11-2007, 09:51
free

What? Free? GW? You must be ancient!

Just kidding, we love you man. I had to say it.

Burnthem
21-11-2007, 13:43
Free isnt canon any more, it went the way of the Squats years ago, even mentioning this phenomenon known as 'free' gets you banned from most fluff forums ;)