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oCoYoRoAoKo
14-11-2007, 22:18
Hi all,

im looking to start an elf army based around the following premise, as last seen in the high elf book summary thread a while back. The problem is, not having had an elf army before, im a little stuck on how it would actually work in practice, and what should go in it. Will the army even work properly on the battlefield?

Im aware that the Dragon mage and Dragon Prince will cost up to 900 points for the two of them. Coupled with the 4 eagles in rare necessary for taking down warmachines, luring out fanatics and stuff, that only leaves me with 900 points left to buy the archers, reavers and the shadow warriors.

So, any help would be really appreciated. Here is the article for those who didnt see it first time round:

You canít touch me, Iím an elf:

Dragon mounted prince and dragon mage (or two foot mages). Two minimum sized archer units. Eagles, reavers and shadow warriors make up the remainder of the list. Points denial is the name of the game. Your prince should have gear designed to ensure he and his naked budgie donít go down, or even get half-wounded. Ever. Unless your enemy spends his entire strength all game trying to make it happen. Shadow warriors and reavers should evade enemy and shoot them, goading them and confusing them. Tackle enemy elite units by flank-or-rearing them with your dragon(s), pincushion weaker ones with shadow warriors (skirmishers get a lot more shots with a smaller footprint) and reavers. Near the end of the game, combo hit your enemies with shadow warriors and reavers, flank and rear to seal the deal (but only if you basically KNOW you can win it). Otherwise, just make him give up points without losing any yourself

Advantages: Fantastic for the cunning general, every model will pull its weight all game. Non-conventional playstyle and good for generals who canít bear to see their lovely models get killed by the bucketload.

Disadvantages: Can be annoying to play against, and against generals with a lot of tough support units like chariots and other such units, their smaller units can take a heavy toll and unless your own heavy hitters pull above their weight youíll have big problems

Thanks Again (and sorry for not being able to remember who wrote the article :P)

Cy.

therisnosaurus
14-11-2007, 22:42
that would be me :P

here is what I'd suggest for a starter 2000 pts:

Dragon mounted prince: AoC, vambraces of defence, amulet of flame (or some other antimagic kit) lance. If you're confident in your ability to keep him out of shooting threat, switch the vambraces for the gem of hoeth and take lore of life, try for the healing spell or howler wind -600ish

Dragon mage: level 2 ring of fury, silver wand -400ish


Core:
20 archers in two units: 220 pts

Special

4x 7 shadow warriors 448

Remaining: eagles and reavers as you see fit.




engage war machines with magic, shooting, eagles and so forth (priority). they shouldn't get more than one turn of shooting, which you can always hide your dragons for. Use the prince dragon to hit heavy cav (lots of str7/6 attacks) and regular missile troops (dragon and prince are almost impossible to hurt significantly, even with handguns)

keep all missile fire targeting soft, valuable units like missile troops and elites like swordmasers, eternal guard and so forth. keep your shadow warriors in trees or behind had cover. if the enemy has a super unit, keep it running in circles by threating it with your dragon prince (move to a flank and breathe, force them to turn or be reared, fly over next turn, repeat ad nauseum.) and using your other mobile troops (chariots/dragon mage) to prevent them countering this. NEVER take a risk unless doing so would prevent a far more significant risk (example- stop charging a unit of khorne chosen with your shadow warriors to stop them charging your dragon prince next turn and probably beating him, redirecting their movement as they must pursue when your shadow warriors flee.

summarised your priorities are thus:

1) do not lose (even half strength loss) any victory points which do not pay for themselves threefold at least
2) eliminate any threats which stand a significant chance of damaging your forces (cannons, wizards etc) as quickly as possible while not risking 1)
3) demoralise your enemy by taking out any centrepiece or keystone units/characters as quickly as possible to make him feel as if he is losing the battle and make more errors, unless doing so would risk 1)
4) attack enemy targets of opportunity, aiming for highest VP-for-effort ratio (attacking a cannon is worth just as much as a unit of 20 spearmen, for example)

oCoYoRoAoKo
14-11-2007, 23:24
thanks alot, that'll help loads

Cy.

Kerill
15-11-2007, 02:28
Why not go for two units of 20 sea guard in that list? Would help with getting all they are worth otherwise knightly armies will be on you by their second/third turn and you have no chance of winning.

BTW nice thread, and surprisingly free of anti-high elf sentiment (I was expecting this thread to be hijacked pretty quickly). Good job.

therisnosaurus
15-11-2007, 05:56
no ranked units, the idea with this list is to deny your opponent viable charges for their regiments. having even a single ranked unit with significant points in it gives THEIR primary regiment (which will usually be able to smack it down), not to mention all their shooting, a great big 'hit me I'm worth a lot of points' arrow. One of the lessons I've learned from years of competitive play in warhammer is this- either have lots of viable targets or none. If you want to have a single target, then make it so hard that they're wasting their points if they even bother trying to take it down.

by taking a couple of small, cheap units, deploying them literally in a line along your board edge, you have a cheap little set of troops that can pinprick away at the enemy enough to be annoying and because they are the only 'viable' targets for cavarly and foot regiments, most enemies I've found get suckered into sending one or two units on the game long slog all the way across the table to try and kill them, often not even getting there. Even if they do, well, yay, they kill an archer unit, maybe panic the other. you lose 220 pts tops, which has occupied probably 400 points of theirs, AND spent four odd turns putting 20 arrows into anything stupid enough to come into range and so have probably made a hundred or two points back that way

you just can't do that with seaguard, this is one of the few situations where I'd take the extra 6" range of the bows to the spears and save of the seaguard. since you want to be deploying along your board edge you can't rely on hills, so you want to be in one line, meaning spears are useless, you'll be out of range of 90% of missile troops (and these will have been dealt with by your shadow warriors and dragons by the time they get into range) so armor is unimportant and, of course, you'll be 12" inches further away from the enemy than usual, so the extra 6" range is a godsend.

Lucky24/7
15-11-2007, 09:25
But this army seems to be very much in the style of a woodelf gorila army, a littel broing to play with dont ay think ?

Lex
15-11-2007, 11:43
I was gonna say the ideas look very much like my WE lists. Lots of skirmishers and all units are good deal less than 200 points not counting characters joining them. I'm not sure that HE can play that way though. WE can to an extent cuz if the Treeman Ancient and such don't do anything the units of dryads and wardancers can really hit hard. Also str 4 archers that are very mobile are excellent. I don't think the HE have the mobility and the punch on their skirmish or archer units. And while the Wild Riders may be fast cav they hit like heavy cav, whereas the Reavers are no where close. Eagles won't really do much to dwarf war machine crews and they would be wasted against VC, Chaos of all 3 varieties, Lizardmen, Brettonians, Skaven and Ogres. If that's the style of play you like I think WE would be a much better choice as they too have dragons and monsters, oh my!

Glabro
15-11-2007, 13:18
...gorilla army?

Oh yes, gorilla tactics. Like going ape on the enemy and so on :)

Briohmar
15-11-2007, 13:28
Actually its guerilla, like insurgents type fighting, avoiding direct contact etc.

As to the idea, well its kind of like a watered down two treeman list, only with two dragons instead.

The problem here is that you have two characters worth 1000 points that are pretty much on their own. a good player will isolate and eliminate one dragon at a time, and then pick off any remaining units they can get their hands on. I like the idea however, just think that it will take a lot to win with.

Kaleb79
15-11-2007, 18:19
but in a way - that's the basic idea. it's about 2 nasty dragons swooping on a army and causing chaos, just like dragons should! the rest of the army aren't really going to do a lot tbh are they? SWs and ERs are enough of a threat that they can't be totally ignored so they are only really there to disrupt the enemy and prevent them focussing 100% on the dragons

with the manueverability of the dragons they are going to make it tricky for the enemy to 'isolate and pick off' - as long as you can get rid of artillery and any significant magic users that is

difference from a WE army is that they have guerilla units that can do real damage. HE don't, but using a couple of dragons is hardly what I would call guerilla tactics! more like godzilla tactics!!!

this is the image I have in mind:
http://www.rpgshop.com/images/Posters/01_dragon_battle.jpg

oCoYoRoAoKo
15-11-2007, 20:35
lol, my thoughts exactly. The main reason though i want to do the army is simply to get the opportunity to model with the new dragon kits as much as possible :P

Cy.

smileyface
16-11-2007, 11:54
by taking a couple of small, cheap units, deploying them literally in a line along your board edge, you have a cheap little set of troops that can pinprick away at the enemy enough to be annoying and because they are the only 'viable' targets for cavarly and foot regiments, most enemies I've found get suckered into sending one or two units on the game long slog all the way across the table to try and kill them, often not even getting there.

I second (third? Fourth?) the "that sounds like WE" comment. My WE army has two units of archers in it who rarely kill anything, but do manage to bring the enemy forward.

The main difference though is that my WE army is more MSU - there is one treeman, but the main threat is a combination of rank-removing cavalry and dryads (and the shapeshifter with the big sword, but we don't talk about him).

What might be useful in the reaver/skirmisher mix is chariots. They are a bit slow (compared with reavers), but they are also extremely flexible, and they give you bonus punch and allow you to threaten more of the table than you can with just two dragons.

Tutore
16-11-2007, 11:58
I think it could be a loser list. Unless played by a pro (you could be one, however), this list lacks also ways to score points. Dragons are good, but can lose combats. I don't know, I would classify it as too risky.

FurryMiguell
16-11-2007, 12:48
The thing about dragons is their fly move, which gives them the ability to pick their battles. I would use Great Eagles as well, to kill any other flying units(or try), and kill warmachine crew...

Cheers:D

feintstar
16-11-2007, 13:21
You could consider going for the Archmage on a Moon Dragon instead of the Stardragon Prince.

That way you've got a really good chance of going for Lore of Light and healing yourself up, plus you've got the capability to be doing craploads more damage without getting into combat. No armour, I hear ye say? True, but if you take the 40K concept of pruning, and unleash firely dragon breath and magical death on a small area of enemy forces, healing yourself/Sheild of Asuryan yourself as you go, maybe you don't have so much to worry about. Also, that cuts down on treesingers, which means that you may even be able to win the Movement phase vs WE.

Downside is if you take that path, then you kinda need a Banner of Sorc somwhere, which means Dragon Princes, or white Lions, or somesuch expensivish unit to be skulking around trying not to be noticed.

GodHead
16-11-2007, 13:41
How about Archmage on Dragon, Dragon Mage, 2x10 Archers, 2 Giants and a unit of Rhinox Riders?

Ha! Ha! Magic and Monsters!

I think I will collect that to go beside my Chaos list with a Lord on Dragon, Exalted Daemon, 3 Chariots and Rhinox Riders.

oCoYoRoAoKo
16-11-2007, 14:56
You could consider going for the Archmage on a Moon Dragon instead of the Stardragon Prince.

That way you've got a really good chance of going for Lore of Light and healing yourself up, plus you've got the capability to be doing craploads more damage without getting into combat. No armour, I hear ye say? True, but if you take the 40K concept of pruning, and unleash firely dragon breath and magical death on a small area of enemy forces, healing yourself/Sheild of Asuryan yourself as you go, maybe you don't have so much to worry about. Also, that cuts down on treesingers, which means that you may even be able to win the Movement phase vs WE.

Downside is if you take that path, then you kinda need a Banner of Sorc somwhere, which means Dragon Princes, or white Lions, or somesuch expensivish unit to be skulking around trying not to be noticed.

hmm, odd that you should mention the mage on moon dragon as i had the same thought. At the moment, the list is quite vunerable to magic with only 3DD and no scrolls. with the mage, i get 5DD, +1 to dispel, and however many scrolls i decide to give him. also on the offence i get 2PD, +3/4 for the archmage (do you think i should bring lvl 3 or 4 btw?), +2 for the dragon mage, + all of his free dice when he casts spells added to a few bound items. As i dont have the book yet (should get it tomorrow) can anyone tell me how the mage compairs to the stardragon prince points wise? i think ill be ok without the banner of sorcery though, ill just have to use my dice wisely and hope not to get too carried away :P

Also, lore of life will help against warmachines and other shooting (rainlord and howler wind) whilst being able to heal my dragons and hopefully do a bit of damage with the rest of the lore.

Cy.

FurryMiguell
16-11-2007, 19:01
lore of metal is very powerful against heavily armoured units. If youre up against an army with a high amount of heavily armoured troops, use the Lore of Metal. i wrote a tactica for it on the magic 101(tactica) on the tactics forum. its not the best ever, but it might just help...

feintstar
17-11-2007, 02:02
The mage is around 100 points more, roughly. I'd take level 4, just for increased chance of getting the spells you want without having to take the seerstaff for Arcane item - instead you could take the Trickster's pendant or the staff of solidity, giving you a little more leeway to cast big spells.

I'd still feel oh-so-tempted to take even a 10 strong squad of White Lions with a Banner of Sorc to leave out of sight at the back of the board behind something. Enemy cavalry can't touch them, neither can warengine hunters, and if worst comes to worst, they can charge off into some woods. And maybe, should your Dragon get stuck in combat, they could help it out...

See how it goes anyway...

FurryMiguell
17-11-2007, 10:41
why not just march the white lions in to a wood as fast at possible?

Cheers:D

oCoYoRoAoKo
18-11-2007, 00:35
ok, got the book in my hands now, and ive come up with a prelimninary armylist, what do you think?

High Elf Archmage:635
Lvl4, Moon Dragon, Seer Staff, Guardian Phoenix, Dispel Scroll

Dragon Mage: 435
Lvl2, Silver Wand, Ring of Fury

10 Archers (x2): 110 x 2 = 220

6 Shadow Warriors (x4): 96 x 4 = 384

6 Ellrian Reavers (x2): 132 x 2 = 264
Spears and Bows

Eagle: 50

OK, idea is that the High mage picks lore of life with Mistress of the marsh and Gift of Life and another 2 spells (may be any of the other three depending on what i face). His role will be general disruption/healing/dragon breath for most of the battle, and will take place in flank and/or rear charges in the later turns. Dragon mage is there to be a offensive magic power-house with the sword for later on and dragonbreath (in much the same way as the high mage). Archers, warriors and reavers stay back and pepper the enemy with shots for most of the game (warriors and reavers have the option here of going warmachine/wizard hunting if i wish) and the eagle is there to tie up warmachines and go for mages as to lessen the damage on the dragons.

in general, priorities will be keeping the dragons out of the way whilst war machines are dealt with and mages neutralised, then dragonbreath/magic missles whilst healing dragons if need be and finally on the last turn, dual charge with dragons and reavers for (hopefully) the win.

well, what do you think?

Cy.

txamil
18-11-2007, 02:50
I'm just not convinced the dragon is going to beat any real infantry once it gets stuck in combat and they slam anything into it's sides.

Lizardmen, dwarfs, VC, TK, and prob chaos will all take the charge and stick you.

feintstar
18-11-2007, 10:47
I think the idea is that you don't charge.

You realize that what you have posted isn't a valid army, even for the highly unorthodox FOC of the HE.

If you take a Lord choice (i.e. the archmage) then you need 2000 points minimum, and 2 core.

So you'd be advised to take:

Another unit of Archers
1/2 RBTs
2 Eagles minimum
More Reavers and Shadow Warrios
Plausibly DPs with Banner of Ellyrion, just to hide/run away before delivering a knockout punch
Plausibly a small unit of WLs for the Banner of Sorc.

And that should get you to the points you're aiming at.

Consider Lore of Light instead of Lore of Life - Life is good for the movement spells, but its range allows you to cast from anywhere a long way away - now that's good, but its a waste considering you're riding a DRAGON. So Lore of Light also gets you a heal spell, but also gets you Solar Flare - all enemy units in 12" take D6 S5 hits whether in combat or not? YES PLEASE. And on the off chance that you're dismounted, maybe Pha's illumination will save your holy behind...

If you really want to be untouchable though, you could drop the dragon and Grab Folriath's robe with a Talisman of Saphery. Then the only thing that can hurt you is an enemy spell, and with luck you'll dispell that anyway.

oCoYoRoAoKo
18-11-2007, 14:31
You realize that what you have posted isn't a valid army, even for the highly unorthodox FOC of the HE.

If you take a Lord choice (i.e. the archmage) then you need 2000 points minimum, and 2 core.

So you'd be advised to take:

Another unit of Archers
1/2 RBTs
2 Eagles minimum
More Reavers and Shadow Warrios
Plausibly DPs with Banner of Ellyrion, just to hide/run away before delivering a knockout punch
Plausibly a small unit of WLs for the Banner of Sorc.

And that should get you to the points you're aiming at.

i dont quite get you there, the army i posted is 2000 points. Also, at 2000 points High elves are only required to bring 2+ core, which i have. i already have 4 units of shadow warriors and 2 of reavers, filling out my 6 special choices (unless you mean more in the way of unit sizes). the problem is, that DPs and WLs are in the special choice aswell, which would give me 4 units of shadow warriors/Reavers max. Unfortunately, there are no more points for these units anyway in 2000 unless i drop some of the reavers and shadow warriors i already have.


Consider Lore of Light instead of Lore of Life - Life is good for the movement spells, but its range allows you to cast from anywhere a long way away - now that's good, but its a waste considering you're riding a DRAGON. So Lore of Light also gets you a heal spell, but also gets you Solar Flare - all enemy units in 12" take D6 S5 hits whether in combat or not? YES PLEASE. And on the off chance that you're dismounted, maybe Pha's illumination will save your holy behind...

If you really want to be untouchable though, you could drop the dragon and Grab Folriath's robe with a Talisman of Saphery. Then the only thing that can hurt you is an enemy spell, and with luck you'll dispell that anyway.

most lore of life spells are only range 12" (unless there is a relevent piece of scenery on the board, in which case its 12" from that), also i really dont think that healing hands can cut it as a "proper" healing spell (1wound healed vs all wounds healed). anyway, if fighting undead (maybe tomb kings, ill have to test it), most of my problems dissapear so lore of light will probably turn up :D

Cy.

feintstar
18-11-2007, 23:57
Oh crap, sorry, missed the (x2) column...

And reread the Lore, and you have a (very good) point.

So ignore my last post, and tell us how it all goes.

oCoYoRoAoKo
19-11-2007, 00:24
no problem :D ive got a battle tomorrow with tomb kings, ill post an update saying howe it went. on a side note, ive juggled about the items on the mages, archmage has silver and, guardian phoenix, ring of fury (5 spells, yay), and the dragon mage has seer staff and a dispel scroll (pick fireball and fiery blast or fiery blast and burning head :D )

Cy.

oCoYoRoAoKo
19-11-2007, 20:25
Alrighty, had the battle. it wasn't going too bad for the first couple of turns, the dragons were causing havoc nicely behind his lines. however, then it went badly in one magic phase.he turned his tomb guard round to face me in the movement phase and then rolled up a 7 for magic move (i had 3DD and a dispel scroll at this moment, and he only had 2 litch priests in range). i proceded to roll 2 1s and a 2 for dispell, he did no damage to me but my moon dragon fluffed all off his attacks, i failed my Ld test and fled off the board. oh well. So following this ive tweaked the army a bit with my opponent's help (he is a long time HE player) and came up with the following:

Archmage: 635
Moon Dragon, Lvl4, Silver Wand, Guardian Phoenix, Ring of Fury

Dragon Mage: 435
Sun Dragon, Lvl2, Seer Staff, Dispel Scroll

10 Archers: 110
10 Archers: 110
6 Shadow Warriors: 96
6 Shadow Warriors: 96

5 Ellrian Reavers: 105
Spear and Bow

5 Ellrian Reavers: 105
Spear and Bow

Great Eagle: 50
Great Eagle: 50
Bolt Thrower: 100
Bolt Thrower: 100

Total: 1992

A note on the Archmage: tempted not to take lore of life in the future ecause although the healing spell is good, i really need something a little more destructive if im going to get my points back- maybe heavens or high magic (both have ward save spells and some nasty destructive stuff).

Cy.

soots
19-11-2007, 22:01
No offense, but id give such an army in a GT 1/10 for composition and probably 1/10 for sportsmanship.

I just dont see this being fun to play against - Watch opponent avoid combat.

oCoYoRoAoKo
19-11-2007, 22:26
No offense, but id give such an army in a GT 1/10 for composition and probably 1/10 for sportsmanship.

I just dont see this being fun to play against - Watch opponent avoid combat.

er, why exactly? the majority of people ive spoken to say that the army is fun but is hard to play with and probably won't have an easy time winning. i took the army because i love the dragon models and decided i wanted to do something revolved around them. also, sportsmanship is based on the opponent and not the army they are playing with. A friend of mine went to the 40k GT recently and played a chaos double lash army ( possibly one of the most broken things in the system), lost terribly, but he still had a blast due to the demenor of his opponent - hardly worth 1/10 for sportsmanship.

also in terms of my opponent avoiding combat, all the better for me - apart from the dragons themselves, the mages cant really fight and they're better off sitting back casting spells/dragonbreath. besides, for how long are you going to avoid combat when a dragon has Movement 20 ?

Cy.

Vsurma
19-11-2007, 22:38
UK GTs have no comp or sport points anymore... WEeeee

I wouldnt mind the game for a challenge.

Though seeing as how I play a slann army I could just magic missile them to death I suppose.

soots
19-11-2007, 23:36
er, why exactly? the majority of people ive spoken to say that the army is fun but is hard to play with and probably won't have an easy time winning. i took the army because i love the dragon models and decided i wanted to do something revolved around them. also, sportsmanship is based on the opponent and not the army they are playing with. A friend of mine went to the 40k GT recently and played a chaos double lash army ( possibly one of the most broken things in the system), lost terribly, but he still had a blast due to the demenor of his opponent - hardly worth 1/10 for sportsmanship.

also in terms of my opponent avoiding combat, all the better for me - apart from the dragons themselves, the mages cant really fight and they're better off sitting back casting spells/dragonbreath. besides, for how long are you going to avoid combat when a dragon has Movement 20 ?

Cy.

I was speaking in first person. ie. watch you avoid combat :)

Khorne Chaos and other melee armies cant charge anything and just watch you prance around for a minor victory.

To me sportsmanship also has to do with the army you select, if someone selects a skaven SAD army, i call that bad sportsmanship.

Salteris
20-11-2007, 03:39
Ok I won a tourney with this list. Say what you may, but it was fun, and fits a theme (Caledor/Ellyrion)

Prince + Star dragon: 634
Armor of Caledor,
Vanbraces,
Extra hand weapon and Amulet of light.
Longbow.


Dragon mage:435
Lvl2,
Ring of Fury,
and Silver Wand.

Core :315
10x Archers, no armor.
20x Spearmen, FC.

Special:512
5x Dragon Princes, FC, Banner of Ellyrion, Helm of Fortune

2 Tiranoc Chariots

5x Reavers, Bows no spears, Mus.

Rare: 350

3x Bolts
1 Eagle.




8 man Tourney, I faced 2 Dwarven anvil armies, (one rank file/regular anvil, and one Gunline/Thoric Anvil) and an Empire Knight list, Warrior Priest bound spells and 1+ saves across his deployment zones and Bronzo's galliper guns along his flanks. Dragons like trees, and cannons suck! :)

feintstar
20-11-2007, 06:49
Hey you guys, I've having a hard time making my Dragon mage last more than 1 turn. Occasionally 2 turns, but usually he's dead at the end of one. Am I using him too aggressively?

oCoYoRoAoKo
20-11-2007, 10:15
well, it depends on what you are using him for and how he dies. if its warmachines, then just hide the guy untill they are dealt with. if its combat, then just try to avoid it as much as possible. I played my dragon mage as a unit nuker - fly to the flank or rear, use dragonbreath, fireball and fiery blast. only when the unit is sufficiently damaged would i fly into combat (note no flaming sword here - i prefer to use the seerstaff to get the spells i want). So in short, i am a bit tentative when using the dragonmage, but i think it pays off in the long run.

Cy.

soots
20-11-2007, 22:04
Ok I won a tourney with this list. Say what you may, but it was fun, and fits a theme (Caledor/Ellyrion)


A Skaven SAD army is themed Skyre and theyre fun shooting up the enemy before they get into melee too. Theyll also win tournies :p

oCoYoRoAoKo
22-11-2007, 16:43
ok, ive had another game, this time against high elves with foot prince, 2 mages, 10 archers, 20 spearelves, 20 swordmasters, 20 phoenix guard, 2 units silverhelms, eagle and 2 bolt throwers. game went well for me in the early turns with good magic and shooting rolls. i would have won if i didnt forget that lone characters on foot have 360 line of sight (lord charges my dragon mage, kiled him, and the dragon ran, not rallying for 2 turns and then off the board). without that i got a draw.

The set up worked well, as well as using high magic on the archmage. I wasnt too impressed with the performance of the eagles though, and for the next game im going to drop them to buy another bolt-thrower, and use the spare points have left over to buy musicians for the shadow warriors (makes them 100 points- just enough to capture table quarters :D )

Cy.

maswalaki
23-11-2007, 13:06
i think that the mages cost so many points, and are so vulnerable, that its really a gamble. If the enemy has anything with move&shoot, your main characters can be gone in 2 turns. (i mean any fastcav with shooty, or similar mobile and missile units) Ofcourse the dragons can last for more rounds, and as mine did, they can eat lots of points, but thats just luck dependant, and you have to work down a serious problem.

I suggest that Prince on star dragon in the earlier variations, and a single scroll caddie (140 pts...) avoiding any contact as far as you can. And the dragon will ceartinly cew throught anything with the prince on its back.

BTW for me the SW is one of the best units. Always in cc about the 3-4th turn, winning it from the flank against thinned out blocks. Or playing with enemy fastcav/flyers.

And the Eagle. If you charge a block of smthg in the opposite side, your opponent have to take a LDtest to not to pursue it (2D6 in the opposite direction, facing elswhere), ofcourse if the temptation to pursue automatically is resisted by the player itself... ("opposite side" means: the farthest from the dragons is the best) And after all, the eagle is expendable, can drew out fanatics, if not playing with the machinecrew.

So for me the army is more like:
Prince+Stardragon
Mage2xscroll
2x10archer
4-5x7-8 SW
1-2x5 Reaver
4xEagle

in the last 3 turn the prince can make 6-700 VP with 2 carefully prepared charges, before that you've earned lots with the guerilla thing from weak targets, the opponent probably balanced it taking out your archers, so its a Solide victory at least... :D Theoretically ofcourse.

Finnigan2004
23-11-2007, 13:54
I have to say that I would not ding you for comp because I think comp is mostly nonsense on principle. On the other hand though, I do not think that it would be a very enjoyable game for most opponents because most opponents would either not be able to counter your supreme mobility, or they will be forced to deal with you through: a gunline, a tzeench lord on dragon, etc.. Either way, the game might not be very fun. That said, you have some great models, and if you and your friends are o.k. with the list you should do it and have great fun with it.

oCoYoRoAoKo
26-11-2007, 00:21
hi all, as i have mentioned before, im dropping the 2 eagles for another bolt thrower. I have a game against dwarves coming up soon and advice would be greatly appreciated. to recap, my army is shaping up to be the following:

Archmage on dragon
Ring of fury, silver wand, guardian phoenix

Dragon mage
Seer Staff, Dispel scroll (will swap out for something more useful for this game - then again, may keep as im trying to go for a "generic list" is there ever is one)

2 x 10 Archers
2 x 6 Shadow Warriors
2 x 5 Ellrian Reavers (musicians)
3 x Bolt Throwers

the army im to face is along the lines of :

Thane (with all the kit that makes him hard to kill, great weapon)
Rune Priest (Dispel scroll rune)
Hammerers
Ironbreakers
Warriors
Cannon
Bolt Thrower
Organ Gun
Quarrelers (the crossbow guys)
Gyrocopter

As for a lore for my high mage, im thinking lore of metal or fire (fire being the most likely). Im planning on trying to take down the warmachines/copter first with magic/shooting, and then move on to the blocks with massed magic missiles/dragonfire. The real question though is if i had to take out one of the warmachines as a #1 target which will it be?

Cy.

Crazy Harborc
26-11-2007, 03:33
I do like the 7th edition version of HEs. Since I have a fair number of HE minies, I'll be using a variety of HE units in place of dragons.

I am now battling against HEs. I lost the first battle against the HEs using Orcs (no cav just foot). Too many failed animosity tests did make a difference in who got to charge.:(

Makarion
26-11-2007, 05:09
Alrighty, had the battle. it wasn't going too bad for the first couple of turns, the dragons were causing havoc nicely behind his lines. however, then it went badly in one magic phase.he turned his tomb guard round to face me in the movement phase and then rolled up a 7 for magic move (i had 3DD and a dispel scroll at this moment, and he only had 2 litch priests in range). i proceded to roll 2 1s and a 2 for dispell, he did no damage to me but my moon dragon fluffed all off his attacks, i failed my Ld test and fled off the board. oh well. So following this ive tweaked the army a bit with my opponent's help (he is a long time HE player) and came up with the following:

Archmage: 635
Moon Dragon, Lvl4, Silver Wand, Guardian Phoenix, Ring of Fury

Dragon Mage: 435
Sun Dragon, Lvl2, Seer Staff, Dispel Scroll

10 Archers: 110
10 Archers: 110
6 Shadow Warriors: 96
6 Shadow Warriors: 96

5 Ellrian Reavers: 105
Spear and Bow

5 Ellrian Reavers: 105
Spear and Bow

Great Eagle: 50
Great Eagle: 50
Bolt Thrower: 100
Bolt Thrower: 100

Total: 1992

A note on the Archmage: tempted not to take lore of life in the future ecause although the healing spell is good, i really need something a little more destructive if im going to get my points back- maybe heavens or high magic (both have ward save spells and some nasty destructive stuff).

Cy.

How about Lore of Light? It's got healing, a spell to assist in psychology issues, and decent-to-good offensive spells, too!

Ronny
26-11-2007, 12:15
So this is what i want to make my HE Dragon army

Prince
-The White Sword, Vambraces of Defence
-Star Dragon

Dragon Mage
-Guardian Phoenix
-Dispel Scroll

20 Archers - 2x10

Dragon Princes x7
-FC, Banner of Ellyrion & Amulet of Life

Silver Helms x7
-FC & Shield

Repeater Bolt Thrower x2

And i have 32p left.

This is my dragon army, it my not be the "you can't touch me" but will it
work?

The Prince & the Silver helms go to gether and the fire mage go whit the
Dragon Princes and whit the fire sword spell. The archers and the bolt throwers will shot what is needed.

oCoYoRoAoKo
26-11-2007, 13:22
Prince
-The White Sword, Vambraces of Defence
-Star Dragon



interesting that you chose the white sword here and not the star lance (or even just a normal lance for that matter) as combats with the dragon lord are unlikely to drag out for more then a turn or so. I think one of the most effective setups for the prince is simply armor of caledor, vambraces of defence and a normal lance. it gives a 2+ rerollable save, a 4+ ward, 4 S6 attacks from the prince and 6 S7 attacks from the dragon on the charge - also, it gives alot of protection to the prince, which is always good as you dont really want him dieing and the dragon running off (lots of points to your opp :( ). That should be enough to crump a unit on its own (on the flank mind). then again, i have seen someone take the blade of leaping gold, AOC and a 6+ ward on his dragon lord before for 7 ST4 and 6 S7 on the charge. it makes a mess out of heavier and lighter units alike just through cvolume of attacks.

Ronny
26-11-2007, 14:40
I see, thank you:angel: so i will do that.

Prince
-armor of caledor, vambraces of defence & lance
-Star Dragon

Dragon Mage
-Guardian Phoenix
-Dispel Scroll

20 Archers - 2x10

Dragon Princes x7
-FC, Banner of Ellyrion & Amulet of Life

Silver Helms x7
-FC & Shield

Repeater Bolt Thrower x2

Great Eagles 50p

And i get to one Eagle. :D

oCoYoRoAoKo
28-11-2007, 21:52
Right, had my dwarf game and i thought i'd share my experiences.

the game started off on a low with my 3 bolt throwers and a whole mess of magic missiles failing to kill the crew on a organ gun, which proceeded to shoot at the dragonmage and kill him (dragon passed his mount test though which was good). following that, i actually managed to kill the war machines (canon and organ) with charges from dragons and shooting from shadow warriors. after that, the game went largely as planned with me concentrating firepower and my remaining magic on individual units to try and kill them. low point for the battle though was when BOTH dragons charged into the rear of a unit of iron breakers and lost the combat and subsequently lost and fled. however, they rallied in the next turn and managed to survive. also, my archmage managed to miscast 3 times throughout the battle which didnt help much.

so in total, it was a minor victory to me (due to my opponent not being ablle to deal with my manouverability once the warmachines died.

What have i learned then:

- killing warmachines is priority #1
- Lore of death works well for the archmage as it couples good destructive capability with nice support powers
- don't charge with the dragons if you really dont have to. you can't afford to loose a dragon due to one unlucky combat.
- its better to sit back with dragon mages and archmages and use the dragon to keep them out of harm then fly in close for dragonbreath
- dragonbreath isnt that awesome, only use if you are sure that you can do significant damage (its short range is its main downfall as you dont really want to be that close with mages.

Cy.

therisnosaurus
29-11-2007, 01:14
dragon breath IS awesome, unfortunately you faced an army where even soft targets will potentially be unhurt by a full blast, and even if they lose a few, they won't panic. Wait till you come up against elves, lizards, skaven, empire, bretonnians and just about everything else till you pass judgement there.

Dasqueek-Master Assassin
29-11-2007, 05:23
Advice: they are slow as Hell! Use it to your advantage.
I do and I play eshin from SoC. You ant to talk about people calling you cheesy, then use a 350 pt model on foot to kill a khorne lord on dragon first turn causing 4d6 wounds :skull:

oCoYoRoAoKo
03-12-2007, 23:48
Right, i've got a battle coming up against VC with 8 levels of casting (3 lvl2s and a Von-Carlstien Lord), zombies, skellies, spirit hosts, banshee, grave guard, fellbats, cavalry and lots of ghouls.

Any ideas on how i should go about beating this?

Cy.