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Archmagus
15-11-2007, 13:54
So, with Gav Thorpe recently considering making Dark magic "a lot more powerful", what kind of spells would you like to see? I think Dark magic could be made a lot more characterful. In its current state, it looks like it's just a bunch of *ZAPPY-ZAPPY BOOM-BOOM SIZZLE* spells with fancy daemon names attached. What could be done to give it more versatility and personality to match the Lore of Athel Loren and (the new) High Magic?

Personally, I think there should be a free spell or cheap default spell to match Drain Magic and Tree-Singing from the other Elf lores. What do we think the Dark Elf equivalent should be?

I also think that they should bring back the older version of Arnizipal's Black Horror - the summoned evil cloud of nastiness which moved across the board each turn and devastated anyone it crossed over. I realise this whole "opened vortex into the Realm of Chaos" thing is an important link to the Sorcerors' actions during the Sundering, but the mechanics of the original ABH were far more interesting. Maybe they could just make the vortex ABH remain in play? Possibly growing wider in the same way that Casandora's Comet gets bigger?

Ideas and opinions would be appreciated.

Esco Thomson
15-11-2007, 16:05
I think that they should make a variant of word of pain.

Debilitating Whispers
6 + casting value
Target enemy unit within 24'', which may be engaged in combat has -3 WS and -3 BS(to a minimum of 1) until the end of the turn. Multiple instances of this spell have cumulative effects.

MalusCalibur
15-11-2007, 16:06
As it stands, the Dark lore is already pretty good, so as to how it will improve I'm not entirely sure. My guess would be Word of Pain might get upgraded/replaced, and the strength of Chillwind might be increased to 4. Beyond that, I don't know.


MalusCalibur

WargamesEmpire
15-11-2007, 16:42
To be honest I like the current magic list as is. Sure, there probably needs to be a few tweaks and touch-ups and they need to expand the range on a couple of them, but other than that I find Dark Magic a very interesting lore to play with.

When I used to play DE I remember the sheer horror on my opponent's faces everytime I managed to get off an Arnizipal's Black Horror (that is the name of the highest level spell, isn't it?)

Count Zero
15-11-2007, 17:13
they will probably get a new auto spell though wont they. i wonder what that could be?

i am sure in the past there was a spell that allowed extra magic cards but could go pear shaped, maybe some thing along those lines could work.

Entreri Bloodletter
15-11-2007, 19:35
I think Dark Magic is ok right now. The only things I would like to see is the casting values lowered by 1 on Soul Stealer, Dominion, and possibly Black Horror. Right now they aren't balanced compared to other lores. Since we are the masters of the Dark Art we should be able to cast these spells easier, not harder than say Death or Shadow.

Another improvement would be to increase the ranges, right now some of them are ridiculously short. Soul Stealer should increase to 12" and Dominion should be increased to 18". The others aren't too bad and seem balanced.

My last gripe is that Dominion is the same casting value as Enrapturing Spasms from the Slaanesh lore and yet does barely a third of what the slaneeshi version can do, and at 6" shorter as well. I would like to see it brought up to par or decreased in casting value by at least 2.

Bernardinatti
16-11-2007, 00:55
Not a dark elf player myself, i can only comment on what it's like FACING the current dark lore.

It is a pain! Every single one of those spells is scary beyond belief (which is understandable) so while i understand you might desire a tweak or two...every magic lore needs that every now and then. I believe black horror should remain exactly the same OR get toned down. That spell can realisitically win the game for you with a lucky casting of it...only other lore i'm aware of that can do that is shadows. That pit spell does pretty much the same now. So i would be very much against seeing black horror become EASIER to cast! But then i'm not exactly dark elf friendly, what with being a loyal high elf player ;)

theunwantedbeing
16-11-2007, 01:01
2d6 st3 for chillwind.
2d6 st5 for doombolt.
Black horror needs to slay outright rather than simply wound.

sulla
16-11-2007, 03:40
The spells (other than chillwind) are probably powerful enough as is. ourThe problems are the slightly high casting values and the mismatch of ranges whereby you really need to build your sorceress' to get up close and personal just in case you get dominion or soul stealer.

But having said that, I still would prefer access to the lore of metal over the current dark lore as it compliments the DE army better than dark magic does. Armour crackers and war machine disabling? Yes please...

sabre4190
16-11-2007, 03:46
As of right now, Dark Magic doesnt have the all out offensive nature that I always envisioned. That being said, it is a good lore.

I think the the only remains in play spell should be something like dark horror: I think the Dark lore should be sudden and quick. If it doesnt do something immediately, it doesnt fit. Thats just my idea of dark magic, and its nothing i feel too strongly about. Any debilitating effects should really last for one turn. I think that the Dark elves need to coordinate their attacks and use that short space of time to inflict maximum casualties.

chivalrous
16-11-2007, 05:33
Personally, I think there should be a free spell or cheap default spell to match Drain Magic and Tree-Singing from the other Elf lores. What do we think the Dark Elf equivalent should be?

i am sure in the past there was a spell that allowed extra magic cards but could go pear shaped, maybe some thing along those lines could work.


Power of Chaos (no, we don't have to keep the name, but that is what it was originally called)
I should probably explain this one. Waaaay back in 4th and 5th edition, when Magic was still card based, Dark Elves had a spell called Power of Chaos, which was basically a level one spell that if successfully cast let you roll a D6. 1 = Instant death, 2-4 = take 3 extra winds of magic cards, 5-6 take 6 extra winds of magic cards.
It basically gave Dark Elves a more powerful magic phase.

I've been thinking about this for some time and I'm having trouble coming up with something that's not over powered, but at the same time is actually a useful spell to cast and I've had a few thoughts:-

Idea #1
Power level 5.
If successfully cast roll D6. 1-5 = add that many dice to the army's Pool of Power dice (preferably with different coloured dice for reasons that will become apparent), 6 = Instant death.
Because of the volatility of the pacts made in this spell, any 1's rolled with dice generated using PoC will immediately force a miscast rather than the usual double 1.
May only be successfully cast once per turn! (i.e. if it is dispelled, you may try again if you want to) after that the daemons get tired and won't help you any more so there :p

Pro's: It's simple and there's risk involved
Con's: 5 extra powerdice!?! even with the threat of miscasts it seems a bit powerful. Secondly is anyone in their right mind going to let this spell past without dispelling it?

Idea #2
inspired by what I've heard about the new Drain Magic spell in the new HE book:
Power Level 5
If successfully cast, roll D3: 1 = add +1 /2-5 = add +2 / 6 = +3, to the casting value of all subsequent spells cast in the Dark Elf magic phase (this replaces the normal +1 Dark Elves receive to cast).
May only be successfully cast once per turn! (i.e. if it is dispelled, you may try again if you want to) even the Daemons think more than +D3 to cast all subsequent spells is silly

Pro's: less risk than the first idea and maybe not quite so harsh
Con's:As with idea 1, an opponent is never going to let this cast.

Idea #3
Power level 8
If successfully cast, all subsequent spells cast by any Dark Elf Sorceress will be cast with irresistable force on the roll of any double, rather than just double 6. As an exception to this, double 1's will always cause the spell to fail and the sorceress to suffer a miscast.
May only be successfully cast once per turn! (i.e. if it is dispelled, you may try again if you want to)
Pro's: You won't have a problem with so many of your spells being dispelled.
Con's: The same dispelling issue as with #1 and #2. Also with a higher casting cost, it's less useful for lower level Sorceresses.

I would dearly love to see Dark Elves get a 0th level spell just as High Elves and Wood Elves get.
I do think power of Chaos does have a reasonable application, so if anyone's got a better idea or some tweaks that could be made to any of my ideas then please, reply below.


But having said that, I still would prefer access to the lore of metal over the current dark lore as it compliments the DE army better than dark magic does. Armour crackers and war machine disabling? Yes please...
I don't see dark Elves as having a natural or noticable affinity to Metal though.

silashand
16-11-2007, 07:28
I want Black Horror to use the new 10" apocalypse template... ;)

Seriously though, I do think Dark Magic needs upgrading. IMO either most of the spells need increasing in range or power, but probably not both. My preference would be:

Chill wind: 2d6 S3 hits
Word of Pain: good as is I think
Doombolt: 2d6 S5 hits
Dominion: needs to be 18" range I think so it could actually stop cav units from charging from out of it's range
Soul Stealer: increase to 18" range
Black Horror: Return it to a moving template ala 5th edition, i.e. it hits all models/units within range before dissipating.

Alternatively, if they kept the damage potential the same as it is now for all spells, but still up the range on a couple, I would like to see all DE spells have two casting levels. The basic level we have now, but on the higher level D2+1 targets could be affected. This would make DE magic quite nasty, but still within the realm of possibility I think.

As for a default spell for the DE, I'd like something along the lines of:

Dark Ritual: 5+ to cast. If successful, the sorceress becomes a living focus point for the winds of Dark Magic. All Dark Elf spells are at -3 casting level for this turn. Multiples of this spell reduce casting costs by an additional -1 per successful casting, though no spell may have its casting value reduced to less than 3. The sorceress who cast Dark Ritual also benefits from a 5+ ward save due to the massive amounts of Dark Magic churning around her.

Or something like that anyway. I think it would be a nice counterpoint to the HE Drain Magic spell anyway. Not that any of these ideas would ever be adopted by the design team, of course...

Cheers, Gary

sulla
16-11-2007, 20:03
I don't see dark Elves as having a natural or noticable affinity to Metal though.

I wasn't saying they did. Just saying that it compliments the Elven weaknesses better than dark magic does. I always use it with a HE seer too and if DE had it as one of their lores, I would always use it for them...

zak
16-11-2007, 20:44
I would like to see a more attacking spell set. I would like to see the first level spell get upgraded to strength 4. And doombolt become 2d6 strength 4. I would like to see the 0th level spell as something like 5+ to cast and will cause all subsequent spells to be cast at an additional +1 to the dice roll, 7+ to give +2 and 10+ to give +3. However if you use the 10+ and miscast you cause a massive vortex and get sucked in to the warp. This would lead to a reckless approach for power that suits the DE mentality.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
17-11-2007, 00:52
There are going to be a lot of pissed off Druchii players when our new book finally arrives.

Have a squizz at the various boards, the ludicrous demands being made. Certain members of the community are working themselves into a tizzy, and thus, cannot help but be disappointed.

I'd like to see Dark Magic mixed up a bit myself. Not just buffing of current spells, that would be dull and boring, but a general reimagining.

Perhaps revolving around remains in play spells, representing curses. Or perhaps spells that eventually cease of their own accord, as the Damon playing havoc with the enemy gets bored and goes home. Would add an extra dimension, and suits Dark Elves in my opinion. If the enemy lets one spell through, it snowballs from there, to the point where his Power Dice are being used trying to dispel what you case three turns ago...


I would like to see a more attacking spell set. I would like to see the first level spell get upgraded to strength 4. And doombolt become 2d6 strength 4. I would like to see the 0th level spell as something like 5+ to cast and will cause all subsequent spells to be cast at an additional +1 to the dice roll, 7+ to give +2 and 10+ to give +3. However if you use the 10+ and miscast you cause a massive vortex and get sucked in to the warp. This would lead to a reckless approach for power that suits the DE mentality.

But they aren't reckless.... The reason Dark Elves can treat with Daemons, and not lose their soul, is that they take time to set the conditions of any bargain struck, rather than accept the Daemons offer....

Bloodknight
17-11-2007, 01:14
I think so, too. What are the casting values people expect for the more powerful spells they want?

Chill wind: 2d6 S3 hits

=> yeah, but not as spell 1. Possibly 7+ like in lore of life (although it's a good spell against missile troops as is).

Word of Pain: good as is I think

=> yep



Doombolt: 2d6 S5 hits

=> no, really, no. The game surely does not need another Warp Lightning.

Dominion: needs to be 18" range I think so it could actually stop cav units from charging from out of it's range

=> it's good as is. Not as annoying as the Slaanesh spell, but that is ok because the Slaanesh lore is one of if not the best lore in the game and borders on the overpowered (not because of its destructiveness but because of the tactical advantages it gives you. Dominion is in the same category)

Soul Stealer: increase to 18" range

=> why not. It should however not be able to pick the model he steals the wound from.

Black Horror: Return it to a moving template ala 5th edition, i.e. it hits all models/units within range before dissipating.

=> No. A moving ordnance template in WFB is silly the way the game works now. I would not use the utterly overpowered 5th edition magic as examples.

feintstar
17-11-2007, 01:26
I really like the idea that the default/free druchii spell should be one that increases their capability to cast, as perfect counterpoint to drain magic. It befits their station, as elvish masters of the dark arts.

I like the reduced values required to cast, because that doesn't reduce your enemy's capacity to dispel, it isn't overpowered, while it also clicks in with the basic +1 to cast such that the Druchii are busting out loads of magical death, esp vs minimal magic defense. As for having a negative side effect - I do think that anyone mucking around with too much magical power should start to have negative side effects, no matter how pro the Druchii casters are... Not sure how I'd work it in though.

Maybe you could have an item that would let you sacrifice a wound for D3 Powerdice? If it reduces you to 0 wounds, you finish the magic phase first and then die? (I reckon that'd be a pretty awesome way to go...)

silashand
17-11-2007, 01:36
I think so, too. What are the casting values people expect for the more powerful spells they want?

Whatever ends up being fairly balanced.


Chill wind: 2d6 S3 hits

=> yeah, but not as spell 1. Possibly 7+ like in lore of life (although it's a good spell against missile troops as is).

Actually, I *don't* think it's all that great against missile troops now. S3 is pathetic at actually causing wounds. I can't tell you the number of times I've rolled the average 3-4 hits, done one wound and then had the enemy save it. Good concept, but pretty poor overall I find.


Doombolt: 2d6 S5 hits

=> no, really, no. The game surely does not need another Warp Lightning.

Warp lightning is a problem because it's the default/only spell for the warlocks. As a spell somewhere in the middle of the list this is more than appropriate for the DE. After all, there are plenty of spells out there that do 2d6 hits of whatever strength. I don't think this is anywhere near broken compared to the changes in the other lores.


Dominion: needs to be 18" range I think so it could actually stop cav units from charging from out of it's range

=> it's good as is. Not as annoying as the Slaanesh spell, but that is ok because the Slaanesh lore is one of if not the best lore in the game and borders on the overpowered (not because of its destructiveness but because of the tactical advantages it gives you. Dominion is in the same category)

At a 10+ to cast, no it's not good enough as it is. As I said, it needs to be able to stop a cav charge if necessary. As it only applies to one unit, I hardly think that is asking too much. Yes, Slaaneshi magic is probably the best in the game, but this is only one spell and as such should be better than it is.


Soul Stealer: increase to 18" range

=> why not. It should however not be able to pick the model he steals the wound from.

Why not? I see no reason this should not work. After all, if a hochland long rifle can reach out halfway across the board and wound models out of units, I see no reason a spell could not do the same at half the range, a chance of miscasting, and the option for the opponent to dispel it. I stand by my suggestion wholeheartedly. In general the biggest problem with all the DE spells right now is they are too short ranged. If we are to keep the short ranges, then they need to be upped in power level. If they don't go up in power, then they need their ranges increased. The two are not compatible with an attacking army philosophy IMO.


Black Horror: Return it to a moving template ala 5th edition, i.e. it hits all models/units within range before dissipating.

=> No. A moving ordnance template in WFB is silly the way the game works now. I would not use the utterly overpowered 5th edition magic as examples.

So a comet that can come down and wreck half the units on the table is somehow better? Yeah, right. No, black horror needs to have the "horror" part of its description come back. Personally, after thinking about it I wouldn't mind keeping it as is *if* it became a remains in play spell and the template caused terror. Now that would be a fearsome spell which as it should be IMO. Right now I find it really doesn't do much considering the equivalent spells in other lists usually revolve around ideas like Flames of the Phoenix (the old Fiery Convocation).

Cheers, Gary

Bloodknight
17-11-2007, 01:53
You are right about the ranges in general. The Dark Lore suffers from short range, but the spells themselves are quite good at what they do.

I do think however that chillwind makes a good first spell as is, though I'd make it a standard D6 S4 spell with the antimissile gimmick added. It's quite scary for most shooters because they are often unarmoured or only lightly armoured.

I would probably shuffle the spells around, ie soul stealer could only be cast on a unit, but as the second spell. After all its pupose in my eye is to make the mage harder (especially with the hits you get when miscasting today), not snipe characters. Would be good at 6+, imho.

I cannot comment a lot on dominion, I hate that spell with a passion, as well as its Slaaneshi counterpart. I would agree on a slightly lower casting level, but not the longer range.

Doombolt: you're right, I forgot you have to roll it first ;). I'd stay at teh 18" range, however.

Black Horror: I like this idea a lot:
Personally, after thinking about it I wouldn't mind keeping it as is *if* it became a remains in play spell and the template caused terror.

That's possible to handle.

Moving the big template around with random movement or short range would be very hard to balance IMO because the casting value would have to be very high. This would bring one problem: it would be either worthless to cast it most of the time or destroy too much stuff in one go depending on the position of the mage.

silashand
17-11-2007, 02:12
I cannot comment a lot on dominion, I hate that spell with a passion, as well as its Slaaneshi counterpart. I would agree on a slightly lower casting level, but not the longer range.

The reason people hate Slaaneshi magic isn't generally because it's powerful (though it is), but because unlike damage spells they force the caster's opponent to do something he doesn't want to do. Personally I think that's entirely in character with the Slaaneshi mentality and in many ways the DE one as well. I love Dominion and think it's probably the best spell in the list. Just because folks may not like it doesn't mean it's not appropriate. IMO people just hate having their opponent be able to dictate what their army does, no matter if it's only one unit or not. I find people hate that more than they hate the possibility of losing half their unit in one casting to spells like flames of the phoenix. IMO such spells have a place in the game as well as damage ones. Removing them eliminates a lot of the flavor of the different aspects of magic after all. JMO...



Moving the big template around with random movement or short range would be very hard to balance IMO because the casting value would have to be very high. This would bring one problem: it would be either worthless to cast it most of the time or destroy too much stuff in one go depending on the position of the mage.

Actually, I wasn't saying have it remains in play. It would simply act like the armageddon gun on the planet killer in gothic. Basically it moved along the line of fire, affected all units/models it touched, then dissipated. I don't think that would be unbalanced at all, but it would have the capability to be one of the most destructive spells in the game, which as the top spell in arguably the most destructive lore in the game is not outside the edge of expectation I think.

However, after thinking about it I do prefer my alternate suggestion of it being RiP and cause terror. My aim was to bring back the "horror" of the spell and I think perhaps that would do it without being too OTT.

Cheers, Gary

sulla
18-11-2007, 02:53
But they aren't reckless.... The reason Dark Elves can treat with Daemons, and not lose their soul, is that they take time to set the conditions of any bargain struck, rather than accept the Daemons offer....

Agreed, but daemons are tricksy creatures. Sometimes the best sounding deal in the world can turn out to be somewhat less than you imagined. Or, in the rush of neccessity, you may need to make a somewhat... sub-optimal bargain? All of these could add up to something which on the tabletop, works out to be more risky than what humans or beasts might suffer. The reason being that we know those 'lesser' mortal are damned; they will happily pay the consequeces later. The DE hope to escape the consequences.

Plus there's the whole warhammer elf thing of them being risk takers and emotional sponges. They are your ultimate thrill seekers and hedonists.

Just Tony
18-11-2007, 03:15
I'd say that more control spells would be the way to go. Sure, some would kill models, but overall the idea is to manipulate the other army. Sort of like Slannesh, but without the hermaphroditity.

WOW, one word I never though I would use in a "conversation"

Archmagus
19-11-2007, 12:55
Power of Chaos (no, we don't have to keep the name, but that is what it was originally called)
I should probably explain this one. Waaaay back in 4th and 5th edition, when Magic was still card based, Dark Elves had a spell called Power of Chaos, which was basically a level one spell that if successfully cast let you roll a D6. 1 = Instant death, 2-4 = take 3 extra winds of magic cards, 5-6 take 6 extra winds of magic cards.
It basically gave Dark Elves a more powerful magic phase. YES! Bring back Power of Chaos as a Default Spell! Genius! Very appropriate indeed. They could just tweak the name to Harness Chaos or something, and make it somewhat less powerful. I think an element of risk isn't too much to worry about. They could just make Soulstones a little cheaper, and more of an "Escape Instant Death" magic item instead of simply a Miscast save.



However, after thinking about it I do prefer my alternate suggestion of it being RiP and cause terror. My aim was to bring back the "horror" of the spell and I think perhaps that would do it without being too OTT. Personally, I think it could go a little more OTT. I think it should widen gradually over time, starting off reasonably sized and getting bigger in the same way that Casandora's Comet grows in size. Do dispels get rid of the Comet completely? Or do they reduce the Comet by one size? I could see dispels reducing the Horror by one size, but not closing it completely. It could be a great distraction for enemy wizards, trying to keep it small and preventing it from swallowing their troops.

The idea of it having the highest Casting Value in the game isn't that daunting if combined with a default spell like Power of Chaos!

T10
19-11-2007, 13:01
I'd like to see an opposite of Drain Magic, a spell that lowers the casting value of spells but makes them more dangerous to cast. E.g. casting values are reduced by three, but all spells miscast on any casting roll that includes a 1...

-T10