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Starbane
12-09-2005, 14:56
If you put a skink priest in a swamp or some form of cover, and you only cast spells that are 'anywhere on the battlefield', is there any way the opponent knows the skink is there?
Cause someone I know says that I don't know he's there, which i find is rather itchy, since you know someone's casting at you.

Is there anything in the rules about this? can you indeed not see this mage?
The fact is that i find it rather dumb to say that my gyrocpter moved accidentally too close and thus found out the skink was there...this just sounds pretty lame to me.

Kotobuki
12-09-2005, 15:01
Umm... yeah... the model has to be on the table.

Flame
12-09-2005, 15:24
In WHFB there is no rule which means you don't know something is there (like 40k) There is however LOS- if he is behind cover that you have said blocks LOS before the game starts (such as woods), then know, he cannot be targeted by normal methods. This does not however, prevent you from casting your own anywhere on the table spells at the model.

Avian
12-09-2005, 15:25
If you put a skink priest in a swamp or some form of cover, and you only cast spells that are 'anywhere on the battlefield', is there any way the opponent knows the skink is there?
Cause someone I know says that I don't know he's there, which i find is rather itchy, since you know someone's casting at you.
You know where all units on the table are, regardless of what they do or don't do and how much cover they are in.

Starbane
12-09-2005, 15:30
You know where all units on the table are, regardless of what they do or don't do and how much cover they are in.

Do you know where this is located in the rulebook? So i have sth to show him?

thx btw

Griefbringer
12-09-2005, 15:30
I am not sure if I got the question right, but I will try to answer.

As long as the rules stand, there are only a few units that can be hidden (skaven and dark elf assassins, goblin fanatics), and they have to hidden within friendly units (exception being Shadowblade, who can hide in an enemy unit).

Otherwise as far as rules stand, there is no way for models to go hiding - if a model is on the table, it can be affected by opponent as he wishes (normal LoS restrictions withstanding).

Disclaimer: the above is for rules as they stand in the rulebook. It can be interesting to write your own scenarios where some units start hidden on the tabletop, and are only revealed when enemy comes close enough - but for that you need to write your own rules.

T10
12-09-2005, 15:41
Is there anything in the rules about this? can you indeed not see this mage?

The fact is that i find it rather dumb to say that my gyrocpter moved accidentally too close and thus found out the skink was there...this just sounds pretty lame to me.

There are no provisions for "hidden" models in the traditional sense. Your opponent has no cause to assume that just because one of his models cannot be seen you cannot direct units to its position to seek him out.

Scouts, magic and just plain luck are good enough explanations.

-T10

Griefbringer
12-09-2005, 15:43
Do you know where this is located in the rulebook? So i have sth to show him?


As far as I remember, it is not explicitly mentioned anywhere, so it might require a little exercise in logic.

Under what conditions does this opponent of your true to claim cover from "hiding" - is it against spells that do not require LoS, against shooting or against charges?

cardboard_armour
12-09-2005, 22:32
Basically the guy is making up rules based on real-world logic.

Okay maybe an amphibious fella could hide him self away at the bottom of a lake but this doesn't mean he has that rule in Warhammer.

The only thing that the Amphibious rules give them is the ability to move freely through watery features and to get the benefit of soft cover while in water features. That is it.

T10
12-09-2005, 22:56
Do you know where this is located in the rulebook? So i have sth to show him?

thx btw

No page reference is necessary. You are free to move your units as you see fit.

Unlike role-playing games, table-top games require a lot of meta-gaming.

-T10

gortexgunnerson
12-09-2005, 23:27
I think you should try some interesting tactics of your own like say you units are all carrying tree branches i.e. Burnham wood Macbeth style and therefore you don't have to declare what your units are or how many are in each. If he complains then ask him to show you in the rule book where it says you cannot do this. Or suggest that he stops playing silly buggers and puts his skink on the battlefield, I think the best way to look at this is to ask where in the rules it allows him to not deploy his characters, as every other hidden model has it specifically described in its discription show him underground advance if you are dwarfs assain rules if you have a DE or skavne book handy. If none of this work stop playing him/use the burnham wood rule! I think it might competsate for hidden skinks lol

Only joking but their is no rules to allow you friend to not deploy a character, (am very suprised looking in Big red book that their are no clear rules for deplyment)

TeddyC
13-09-2005, 21:53
as far as i remember without hunting my book out....

Water features dont block LOS to models in them. Aquatic creatures just get soft cover -1 to hit for being partially submerged.

If you were playing it like he is, it should onlu be fair to play it the same as woods (2" in 2" out)

DeathMasterSnikch
13-09-2005, 22:27
Instead of pointing out where it says you can target him, ask where it saysyou cant.

Or do the deploy behind box routine and when you remove the boxes make sure you didnt deploy anything. Say they are all hidden behind something or other :p

OO or you spent 50pts on the spell of invisible battlehorde :p and he will most likely ask either

A: where is that in the book?!
just ask where the unplaced skink rule is in his.

B: Your not allowed to do that!
Tell him hes not allowed to use a skink with predetor cloaking _

cardboard_armour
13-09-2005, 22:33
It doesn't work like that though. You can play it like that if you feel generous but I would say no. It's hard enough to get at Skinks in impassable rivers without being able to shoot them either.

Izram
13-09-2005, 23:39
I think Mageith is the one who always says that "we can only do what the rules tell us".

Just ask him where it says that spells that require no LoS need LoS :P.

Starbane
14-09-2005, 00:19
Only joking but their is no rules to allow you friend to not deploy a character, (am very suprised looking in Big red book that their are no clear rules for deplyment)

I ain't that he doesn't deploy a character, he just puts it for example in a swamp and it basically goes like, 'why would you shoot at that direction or move your gyrocopter to it? You don't know that the skink is there'.
Or that he would put it in a tower and state that I have no reason to attack the tower, as I don't know that there's anything in it.

We've sorted it out for the most part though. So thx again for the reactions

T10
14-09-2005, 08:24
Ah. Rhetorics.

"Why would you?"
"Why wouldn't I?"

-T10

gortexgunnerson
14-09-2005, 17:32
lol I can and have seen people start the game with units facing backwards for no particular reason and in response to why would I attack a tower.... Because their is a skink preist in it lol. I know you can't see it but thats like saying if I deploy a unit that cannot see during deployment e.g. in a wood it would never move as cannot see any enemy units. I think you mate is just bullying you, their is nothing in the rules to stop you from moving your troops towards a wood or tower whether or no there is a unit in it. What army do u play anyway have you access to some nice life magic to slap the little skink about 3D6 str4's if he's in a tower and you get master of stone :) :) actually thinking about you play Dwarfs right (gyro reference earlier) so have to do it with a stone thrower or cannon. But I don't think swamps block line of sight even for aquatic creatures, for the fact that logic cannot be applied in this situation use the example that a unit of salamanders can be rain lorded to prevent them from firing lol (this happened to my salamanders in a tournment)

I played lots of 4th Edition and I used to shoot at empty buildings quite regularly if their wasn't anything useful to shoot at. And in fact actually won me a game after my oppenet ladied a manicore riding Necromancer Lord in a barn which I then finished off bringing it down on his head, (It was 6000 point game at the battle field was 10 feet wide so I had a few free rounds of shooting with my Dwarf cannons)

But I would just tell your mate No he can't do it or stop playing him he sounds like he is trying to pull some very beardy tricks and that never makes for good warhammer

Izram
14-09-2005, 20:15
But I don't think swamps block line of sight even for aquatic creatures

I am pretty sure that aquatic creatures cannot be seen if within 2 inches of a water feature.

der_lex
14-09-2005, 20:40
Being one of the other players in Starba,e's play group I can attest to how annoying the 'skink in the pond' and 'skink in the bushes' are...especially since they get put there every damn game. (although occasionally the 'skink in the hous' makes an appearance).

Fortunately I play Chaos, and we have the perfect unit for dealing with them...a squadron of Screamers with in-flight slashing attacks...I can kill the buggers without having to charge. Can even back it up fluff-wise...Screamers are drawn to magic, so of course they know the skink is there... :skull:

Ironically enough the best thing against this tactic so far was....playing in the lizzies' back yard, ie Lustria. a LOT of encounters can munch a skink in a single round :D

Almost makes it worthwhile taking heavily armored troops near quicksand...

McMullet
15-09-2005, 10:53
I am pretty sure that aquatic creatures cannot be seen if within 2 inches of a water feature.
Aquatic scouts may "count as" out of sight if they are deployed at least 2 inches INTO a water feature. This is for scout deployment only, being a modification of the scouting rules. At all other times, aquatic creatures get soft cover when in water features, and that is all (well, except for being able to move through them).

Trunks
16-09-2005, 04:30
I ain't that he doesn't deploy a character, he just puts it for example in a swamp and it basically goes like, 'why would you shoot at that direction or move your gyrocopter to it? You don't know that the skink is there'.
Or that he would put it in a tower and state that I have no reason to attack the tower, as I don't know that there's anything in it.

We've sorted it out for the most part though. So thx again for the reactions

"Why would your skink priest hit my regiment across the board with his spell if he can't see them?"

:D

T10
16-09-2005, 08:10
Because it has the Magic Touch (http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/mike_oldfield/magic_touch.html).

-T10

Griefbringer
16-09-2005, 10:31
How many points is the Magic Touch upgrade?

Izram
16-09-2005, 13:27
It comes standard on all wizards.
Except butchers.