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View Full Version : Where is the actual reference to SM's having Baneblades pre-heresy?



Vaktathi
16-11-2007, 04:04
Allrighty, so since the Baneblade has come out, what was once a singular symbol the the might of the Imperial Guard has now been seen in just about every army, some with a solid justification, others not so much.

However, what I want to know is where it says that loyalist Space Marines had Baneblades Pre-heresy (as I assumed the Chaos versions were looted from Imperial Army and later Imperial Guard units, and hell I don't think current SM's can even transport a BB as it wont fit on a Thunderhawk Transporter like a Land Raider will and I don't know of them fielding anything larger now, certainly not Stormbirds)

I can't find any reference in any Imperial Armour book (1-5, and old 1&2), any Horus Heresy book, any Index Astartes article, or anything else I have access to. Pretty much the only thing I haven't read through yet is the rules and background in Epic 40,000, and the Horus Heresy collected visions book, which are the only places I imagine it could be at this point. It keeps coming up, and though I'm not categorically denying it, I can't find any reference to loyalist SM's ever having them either in anything I own or have on PDF.

Can someone point out where it's actually said that they had such units? I'd very much like to know so I can read over it myself.

-thanks!

Jonke
16-11-2007, 05:18
In collected visions there are a few examples of legion bane blades.

Vaktathi
16-11-2007, 05:23
Are these Traitor tanks or do they portray Loyalist ones?

Jonke
16-11-2007, 05:26
The only one I can remember right now belonged to the death guard.

Brother Siccarius
16-11-2007, 06:18
The Imperium didn't discriminate with armaments much back then. Everyone had Land Raiders, Baneblades, Titans, Aircraft, and Imperial Naval vessels at their disposal. The Crusades were led by the Marines not as a separate entity but as the top of the chain of command (Much like how Army is at the top of the command chain in any theater of war, above Navy, Airforce, or Specialists).

The Marines were the ones who had final say as to how forces were deployed and what tactics were used. They were the ones who told the Titans legions and Baneblade companies how and where to deploy. They were the ones in command of every theater of war and everything within it, and the command continued even after the particular war was over.

So yes, they commanded baneblades and had them as part of their armories before all the armies of the Imperium were split up into their own separate fighting forces. Though you still see the Space Marines as the top of command in many of the more recent major conflicts such as Armageddon and Eye of Terror where the Marines were the ones in charge of the assembled Imperial forces.

No, there isn't a direct reference to them commanding the Baneblades, but as they were the ones who commanded everything from Titan Legions to Imperial Guard it's safe to agree that they commanded the Baneblades as well.

Vaktathi
16-11-2007, 06:23
They commanded the squadrons yes, just like they commanded any other troops under their command but did they actually FIELD them as Legion vehicles, with Space Marine crews with Legion heraldry? (even units under Legion command had their own symbols and heraldry)

So far I can't find anything to support this from what I'm looking at.

Also, Titan's were always Admech weapons, they were never IG or SM units.

Brother Siccarius
16-11-2007, 07:58
They commanded the squadrons yes, just like they commanded any other troops under their command but did they actually FIELD them as Legion vehicles, with Space Marine crews with Legion heraldry? (even units under Legion command had their own symbols and heraldry)

So far I can't find anything to support this from what I'm looking at.

Also, Titan's were always Admech weapons, they were never IG or SM units.

As each of the Legions commanded a particular expedition force and every soldier carried the heraldry of their expedition, they probably would have carried the heraldry of the legion. It's also possible that the marines could have piloted and been part of the crews of the Baneblades under their command.

As to Titans, each expedition carried Titans with them on the Admech ships that were part of the fleet and legion, which were given commands by the Space Marine Legion, which puts them under the command of the Legion. Which was what I meant by saying that the Titans were commanded by the Marines as they literally received their commands from the Marines. It's also possible that a Legion that was closer to the Admech than others, such as the Iron Hands, could have had a Marine leading a Titan or as part of the crew.

Vaktathi
16-11-2007, 08:07
But is there any actual reference to such ever happening?

I'm trying to find an actual written source of Legions actually having Baneblades in their actual armories and being regularly fielded with Space Marine crews rather than just looted from the Imperial Army after the Heresy breaks out. It's come up on here as an excuse for current SM armies to field Baneblades, but its just something I can't actually find any concrete evidence of. As I said, nowhere in any IA or Horus Heresy book does it mention Loyalist Space Marines making use of Superheavy tanks. (nor can I find any way for SM's to actually field a BB with their current Thunderhawk transport fleet)

While the SM's command the expeditions, Titans and the like are crewed and commanded by Admech personell, Imperial Army units have their own commanders and vehicles. They took orders from the Space Marines, but still operated as their own units.

Inquisitor S.
16-11-2007, 09:24
There's some quite old artwork with super-heavy tanks bearing the Ultramarines symbol (Titan Legion Game or Space Marine).

Chaos and Evil
16-11-2007, 09:39
However, what I want to know is where it says that loyalist Space Marines had Baneblades Pre-heresy (as I assumed the Chaos versions were looted from Imperial Army and later Imperial Guard units, and hell I don't think current SM's can even transport a BB as it wont fit on a Thunderhawk Transporter like a Land Raider will and I don't know of them fielding anything larger now, certainly not Stormbirds)


Space Marines still field an updated Stormbird:
The imaginatively titled 'Landing Craft' (http://uk.games-workshop.com/storefront/store.uk?do=Individual&code=99110301025&orignav=300808)

It carries four Land Raiders or six Rhinos, and sixty power armoured infantry as well.

I can imagine it is quite capable of transporting a single Baneblade class vehicle.


EDIT:

It also mounts three twin heavy bolters and two twin-lascannon predator turrets, just in case you were wondering. :D




EDIT2:


Epic 40,000,

Epic 40,000 hasn't existed for 4 years.

The current edition of Epic is called Epic: Armageddon.

Vaktathi
16-11-2007, 09:41
mmm...I wish there was a picture of that. That certainly would be able to carry a Baneblade however.

Chaos and Evil
16-11-2007, 09:57
And that's why Epic's awesome. :D

Drakemaster
16-11-2007, 10:43
There are a couple of examples in the Sabertooth artwork of superheavy tanks belonging to the legions here (http://www.pa-sy.com/hhccg/images/theimperialreaper.jpg) and here (http://www.pa-sy.com/hhccg/images/khatek.jpg) if that helps at all. Doesn't show whether they were actually crewed by the marines themselves of course, but they do seem to be in legion colours...

downundercadet07
16-11-2007, 21:01
What is the crew of a baneblade? Twelve or so? That is taking an entire Rhino based space marine squad out of action to do something that can be done by the Imperial Guard. Even during the great crusade, I doubt that kind of math would have flown.

But that is doctrinally speaking. I'm equally sure that there wouldn't be anything super strong stopping an Iron Hand master of the forge or master of the arsenal from having a baneblade at his command, if he should require it.

That said, that might happen once or twice per legion, and would come no where close to explaining the current prevalence of baneblades per space marine players in Apocalypse. I know my blood ravens will never use them (or 'ally' with them, when they are the only Imperial Guard unit in the allied army) as they are a second founding or later chapter, and no amount of squinting makes it work. I think the real problem is that marines were not given confirmation that a big release (Thunderhawk) was coming for them at any time in plastic.



(Much like how Army is at the top of the command chain in any theater of war, above Navy, Airforce, or Specialists).

I guess that is why the supreme commander of all forces in the Middle East is an admiral.... Google 'US Military unified commands'. Or ADM Fallon. To be fair, this misconception was correct. But that was about one hundred and seventy years ago.

sabreu
16-11-2007, 22:10
I honestly believe someone just pulled it out of thin air because until I saw the apocalypse book, I never came across anything that would imply SM had baneblades at all. :p

Vaktathi
16-11-2007, 22:16
I honestly believe someone just pulled it out of thin air because until I saw the apocalypse book, I never came across anything that would imply SM had baneblades at all. :p

which is exactly what I was thinking. I still can't find a written reference anywhere to loyalist SM baneblades.

Ozendorph
16-11-2007, 23:20
mmm...I wish there was a picture of that. That certainly would be able to carry a Baneblade however.

http://store.us.games-workshop.com/storefront/newimage.asp?Size=A&Img=253213

IG_hopeful
17-11-2007, 01:02
Hmm.

I, myself though I do have a Hellhammer will never consider it to "belong" to the DA or related armies. But will be fielded as an ally to them, and crewed by IG troops.

As for a kind of fluff, the reasoning behind the DA's semi having a baneblade is out of the respect that the Tank Comander has for the DW

TheMartyr451
17-11-2007, 01:29
In the collected visions books, I recall a picture of a Sons of Horus Fellblade (variant baneblade? precursor?), there was also a Mammoth tank, which looked about the same, maybe it was bigger.

Death Guard and World Eaters also had baneblade depictions.

khorne666
17-11-2007, 10:11
I would like to point out that at the time of the crusade/heresy only marines could command landraiders by direct order of the emporer himself as it was new technology so on the topic of space marine baneblades pre-heresy I would say baneblade would not exist. And there is also the fact that if they did I think the siege of terra would have gone a very different way.

Leftenant Gashrog
17-11-2007, 10:45
I would like to point out that at the time of the crusade/heresy only marines could command landraiders by direct order of the emporer himself as it was new technology..

Not really correct, Land Raiders were used by all branches of the armed forces throughout the Great Crusade, the Emperor only restricted their use to the Astartes after the primary Land Raider production center fell to traitor forces during the Horus Heresy.

vampires are cool!
17-11-2007, 10:48
I swear that they would have existed pre-heresy. Theres a picture of one in the Slaves to Darkness book saying that its a PH Death Guard one.

RelictorLord
17-11-2007, 14:16
In some artwork in the 2003 chapter approved book there is an ultramarines force fightng orks, they are pictured as having what look like banblades and they have ultramarine iconography on them.

Killgore
17-11-2007, 16:55
Spacemarines didnt have to rely on thunderhawks to drop their vehicles during the Heresy

they had fleets of SpaceCraft, Battleships, Heavy Crusers, huge Bulk Transports, all to transport their gear

Vaktathi
17-11-2007, 18:43
In some artwork in the 2003 chapter approved book there is an ultramarines force fightng orks, they are pictured as having what look like banblades and they have ultramarine iconography on them.

Where is this? I just looked through the whole thing and the closest thing I saw was a reprint of a 2nd Ed Ultramarines picture with a bunch of random large gunbarrels, but it didn't really look like a Baneblade.



Spacemarines didnt have to rely on thunderhawks to drop their vehicles during the Heresy

they had fleets of SpaceCraft, Battleships, Heavy Crusers, huge Bulk Transports, all to transport their gear
I wasn't saying that they didn't then, I was mentioning the current timeline.


In the collected visions books, I recall a picture of a Sons of Horus Fellblade (variant baneblade? precursor?), there was also a Mammoth tank, which looked about the same, maybe it was bigger.

Death Guard and World Eaters also had baneblade depictions.
Are these *before* they turn traitor or after? (I don't have the book yet unfortunatley)

setekhite
17-11-2007, 20:10
There's some quite old artwork with super-heavy tanks bearing the Ultramarines symbol (Titan Legion Game or Space Marine).

Older than that IIRC - I seem to recall references to 'Hercules' class super-heavy tanks being used by Marines in Adeptus Titanicus stuff in WD. From what I remember, they looked like much more streamlined versions of Baneblades - the HH Fellblades seem very similar, so I guess they just resurrected the design along with Baneblades etc.

EDIT: Found it! WD 120 article on Superheavies, apparently.

http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heavytanksfullscene60dy7.jpg

Calden
17-11-2007, 20:21
EDIT: Found it! WD 120 article on Superheavies, apparently.

http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heavytanksfullscene60dy7.jpg

Nice, there's one that looks like some kind of super-heavy Hellhound equivalent too :) The one at the very bottom of the shots seems to have alot in common with a Baneblade, and the Thousand Son's tank looks like a su[per-heavy chasis too.

As for the Marines having the tanks? Had to say, the impression I've always got is that the Imperial Guard as an army basicly used to exist under the command of a space marine chapter (I've not yet got around to reading any of the new Horus Heresy books, so that may wel be a false assumption). So pre-heresy the Imperial Guard may well have wandered around in space marine chapter colours, as part of the chapters actual army. It stands to reason that the vehicles too will have followed that route. What I've no idea about though is whether the Baneblade was ever crewed by Space Marines. I'd imagine that the inside of such a tank would be stupidly cramped, so personally I'd say no, but that doesn't mean I'm right.

I'd personally say that the Baneblades the chaos legions may still have are from when the chapters went renegade during the heresy, and the imperial guard under their command came with them. Loyalists would have probably had to give up control of Baneblades as part of the reformation of the Space Marines post-heresy.

Flame Boy
17-11-2007, 23:26
Older than that IIRC - I seem to recall references to 'Hercules' class super-heavy tanks being used by Marines in Adeptus Titanicus stuff in WD. From what I remember, they looked like much more streamlined versions of Baneblades - the HH Fellblades seem very similar, so I guess they just resurrected the design along with Baneblades etc.

EDIT: Found it! WD 120 article on Superheavies, apparently.

http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heavytanksfullscene60dy7.jpg

I can't resist it.... the Hercules tank.... so this is the missing link between the Predator and the Land Raider that has been endlessly speculated about? :p

TheMartyr451
18-11-2007, 01:10
Are these *before* they turn traitor or after? (I don't have the book yet unfortunatley)

It's hard to tell, as the pictures tend to mix and match all over the place, but I'd say most of them are pre-heresy, as they aren't all spiky and stuff. I'm pretty sure the mammoth tank is traitor though. I'll have to take a look at them.

*fixed the quotation

bigred
18-11-2007, 04:05
Yup, vaktathi,

The Legions had them. There are 3 pics in the Horus Heresy artbooks, showing Legion superheavies described as either Fellblades/Mammoths, and the ancient Adeptus Titanicus had those early Ultramarine precursors to the Baneblade in the pic above.

Now based on a couple of facts:
1) Several traitor legions are described in their Index Astartes articles as falling back to the Eye of Terror post heresy in good order, with minimal losses.
2) The Plaguereaper in the Apocalypse book is manned by a marine and has a BS:4.

I take that as further evidence, that bane/fellblades can be manned by marines, and that quite probably, all the 18 original first founding legions had access to them.

In the case of the traitor legions, the existence of the plaguereaper seems to imply that some number of Fellblades are still out there and operational.

In the case of the loyalist first founding legions, there are 2 alternatives:
1) Each chapter still retains a small number of them in their armories
2) At some point they gave them up voluntarily (the most likely time would have been the 2nd founding, when the legions were broken up into smaller chapters and formally adopted the Index Astartes for their combat operations)


ps, here is the BoLS datasheet for a Fellblade (http://belloflostsouls.blogspot.com/2007/10/play-aid-legion-fellblade-rules-from.html). You know you want one :)

-bigred

LexxBomb
18-11-2007, 08:19
what about the DA IronWing. if there was a contender for a SM legion that would have fieldsed baneblades that would have to be the formation used

Vaktathi
18-11-2007, 08:52
Is there anything more concrete than pictures in a background book that from what people have said are all still legions that turned Traitor (if someone could post those maybe?) and an old picture of a look-alike from RT (when IG still had LR's)? I mean before Apoc came out, I don't remember anyone suggesting that BB's were anything but a Guard/Traitor Guard tank, and certainly no reference or suggestion that any Post Heresy loyalists field them.


what about the DA IronWing. if there was a contender for a SM legion that would have fieldsed baneblades that would have to be the formation used
What exactly is this referencing...? I've never heard of "Ironwing". If anything I would have imagined that of the Legions it would be the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors that would field such units in mass numbers.

Leftenant Gashrog
18-11-2007, 13:39
What exactly is this referencing...? I've never heard of "Ironwing". If anything I would have imagined that of the Legions it would be the Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors that would field such units in mass numbers.

According to Space Marine 1st edition (or at least the full army list for said game from WD126) at the time of the Horus Heresy Space Marine Chapters each consisted of up to 20 Regiments.
Each Regiment consisted of 3 Battalions + Support.
Each Battalion consisted of 3 Companies + Support.
Each Company consisted of 3 platoons/squadrons/batteries.

There was a variant army list for the Dark Angels which gave them access to Deathwing and Ravenwing, however rather than having them as entire regiments GW decided that each regiment would have a 'wing' battalion comprised of a Deathwing, a Ravenwing and.. another wing, they sat down with a list of all available* units, crossed off all the ones already taken by Deathwing and Ravenwing, and then named the leftovers "Ironwing" ~ since it served no purpose outside of EPIC it never made the crossover into 40k proper, and despite the fact that it could just as easily be fielded as a footslogging infantry company without a vehicle in sight the Ironwing has somehow acquired an urban myth about being a fully mechanised unit..

* which didnt include any super-heavies other than Capitol Imperiali

I disagree about Ironwing having any particular claim to Baneblades, if you go by the original then theres no reason for it to have any specific claim to them, and if you go with the urban myth about it being a mechanised company then I'd say they definately shouldnt be in there, since the whole point of mechanisation is to be fast moving, something which is slightly defeated by the presence of a Baneblade.

Noserenda
18-11-2007, 20:01
You arent going to find a concrete written source that shows Marines using Baneblades, because most (If not all) HH and GC era stuff is written as stories or artwork/cards rather than equipment manuals/catalogues. However, given the general state of GC armed forces, the Artwork and no denial of their use, it seems obvious they did use them.

Arkley
18-11-2007, 20:24
But its not implied that Legions had Baneblades? Its implied that they had Fellblades which are the the precursor to Baneblades?

In my opinion do Marines have Baneblades? No
Do or might they still have a Fellblade or Mammoth? Yes...


I could be completely wrong :)

Vaktathi
18-11-2007, 20:42
You arent going to find a concrete written source that shows Marines using Baneblades, because most (If not all) HH and GC era stuff is written as stories or artwork/cards rather than equipment manuals/catalogues. However, given the general state of GC armed forces, the Artwork and no denial of their use, it seems obvious they did use them.

well, the way I've been looking at it is that it's always been an Imperial Guard vehicle, and it's never been mentioned as anything *but* and Imperial Guard vehicle.

Even the Land Raider is mentioned as having once been found in Imperial Army units until the end of the Horus Heresy, but nothing concrete of the Baneblade except Imperial Guard use, not in any Imperial Armour book nor in the Horus Heresy books so far. The only evidence so far is what appears to be a look alike (but named differently) from a 1989 RT era White Dwarf (when Marines still had Shuriken Catapults) and pictures from a background book of BB's in the hands of Traitor Legions (pics would still be nice maybe?)

Darkoth
18-11-2007, 21:59
Baneblades definetly would be in the hands of the traitor legions, having been mentioned somewhere that the iron warriors field entire companies of them. Also i'm sure somewhere it has been mentioned that the ultramar defence militia field the baneblade, is that in the apocalypse book maybe? But i find the fact that loyalist marines would crew a baneblade in the present 40k setting hard to beleive. Just think if said chapter went traitor with a few baneblade thats a major threat to the imperium. No i think loyalist marines could command baneblades in the battlefield but not crew them. Traitor legions however... Thats the beauty of being chaos :D

Noserenda
19-11-2007, 00:28
well, the way I've been looking at it is that it's always been an Imperial Guard vehicle, and it's never been mentioned as anything *but* and Imperial Guard vehicle.

Even the Land Raider is mentioned as having once been found in Imperial Army units until the end of the Horus Heresy, but nothing concrete of the Baneblade except Imperial Guard use, not in any Imperial Armour book nor in the Horus Heresy books so far. The only evidence so far is what appears to be a look alike (but named differently) from a 1989 RT era White Dwarf (when Marines still had Shuriken Catapults) and pictures from a background book of BB's in the hands of Traitor Legions (pics would still be nice maybe?)

Thats true of a few things, but relatively speaking the Baneblade actucally has very little written about it, most other Tanks at least got a (good) article in WD about them, or a full blown IA article but the baneblade has been deprived of this (afaik) by our current lacklustre WD. Which means the majority of Background on the tank comes from brief fluff paragraphs, which often repeat the obvious details from entry to entry, and Forge World, who are all about the IG in this case.

In any case what exactly are you trying to prove? Without a source that specifically states Baneblades were Never used you really are running off circumstantial evidence, which to my mind seems to favour the point that in the GC all Imperial forces "cross-pollinated" equipment and vehicles. Something which is basically solid fact*.

To clarify, outside of the Space Wolves (damn pikeys!) Post Heresy Marines really shouldnt be using them (But being cool leads to allowances) but Pre Heresy, i see no reason to belive they didnt, even if they used a VERY slightly different variant and called it a Fellblade.

*Relatively :angel:

Brother Siccarius
19-11-2007, 00:42
What is the crew of a baneblade? Twelve or so? That is taking an entire Rhino based space marine squad out of action to do something that can be done by the Imperial Guard. Even during the great crusade, I doubt that kind of math would have flown.

But that is doctrinally speaking. I'm equally sure that there wouldn't be anything super strong stopping an Iron Hand master of the forge or master of the arsenal from having a baneblade at his command, if he should require it.

That said, that might happen once or twice per legion, and would come no where close to explaining the current prevalence of baneblades per space marine players in Apocalypse. I know my blood ravens will never use them (or 'ally' with them, when they are the only Imperial Guard unit in the allied army) as they are a second founding or later chapter, and no amount of squinting makes it work. I think the real problem is that marines were not given confirmation that a big release (Thunderhawk) was coming for them at any time in plastic.


The Legions really have no problem removing a hand-full (or rhino-full as it were) from the infantry if it means a greater effectiveness on the battlefield. After all, they aren't removing them entirely from the battlefield or combat and they're still providing an effective role in the conflict. After all, they take them out of the infantry to provide crews for Land Raiders, Land Speeders, Rhinos, Landers, Thunderhawks, the top echelons of their Ships, ect. taking twelve out of several thousand wouldn't be an impossible feat for a chapter.

The whole crew doesn't have to be Space Marines, or even any of the crew, for it to be part of a chapter. The Marines are known to have a few actual Marines as the commanders of a vehicle or vessel and having the rest of it crewed by chapter serfs. Alternatively the entire Baneblade could be crewed by chapter serfs making them distinctly part of the chapter but not crewed by Marines.



I guess that is why the supreme commander of all forces in the Middle East is an admiral.... Google 'US Military unified commands'. Or ADM Fallon. To be fair, this misconception was correct. But that was about one hundred and seventy years ago.

Actually that quote was something they taught us in ROTC just four years ago.

To Space Marines having Baneblades pre-heresy, yes, they did and we know they did. To Space Marines having them post-heresy we have less evidence of it.
I could imagine several chapters having certain takes on the Baneblade that would give them one in Apocalypse.

The Iron Hands gain one through their close connection with the Technocracy of Mars.
A Space Wolf armor commander takes one as a trophy from a rebellion on a forge world. (They're well known for taking even some possibly tainted trophies)
A Black Templar commander obtains one for use in his crusade.

Phunting
19-11-2007, 00:52
What is the crew of a baneblade? Twelve or so? That is taking an entire Rhino based space marine squad out of action to do something that can be done by the Imperial Guard. Even during the great crusade, I doubt that kind of math would have flown. But most of these rolls could probably be filled with serfs and/or servitors, very few actual marines would be needed.

Take a SM battlebarge for example, it must need thousands to run, but obviously is still a SM ship despite the vast majority not being SMs.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
19-11-2007, 01:35
As to chaos legions having baneblades, I'm considering getting one for xmas to bump up my Khornate-y warband, Fluffwise, what would be the most likely variant to have? Will the GW model (a Mars pattern?) be the correct variant to have been around during the Heresy? I was considering writing the fluff for the thing that it had taken part in the heresy as I want it to look really old, mutated and battle damaged.

So basically what I'm trying to say is, a GW baneblade + battle scars + daemons crawling all over it = fluffly acceptable?

What's the difference between the patterns Baneblade/fellblade/mammoth and/or Mars/Ryza in terms of gameplay and/or fluff?

LexxBomb
19-11-2007, 07:56
I disagree about Ironwing having any particular claim to Baneblades, if you go by the original then theres no reason for it to have any specific claim to them, and if you go with the urban myth about it being a mechanised company then I'd say they definately shouldnt be in there, since the whole point of mechanisation is to be fast moving, something which is slightly defeated by the presence of a Baneblade.

are you talking aboutr mechanised infantry or an armoured Regiment. both are completely different. and the IronWing being mechanised refers to if being the vehicle of the legion not a mechanised infantry detachment.

mechanised infantry can be fast moving as in a blizkrieg but their in is their weakness if used in such a manner. any force that gains ground too fast loses support. the importance of this comes in when you take into account fuel, ammo, and food. with out the logistical support of general troop movement forward then the mech infanty arte screwed in a protracted fight. this is why they are generaly deployed in suppport of other troops.

on the other hand you have armoured regiments/corps basicly tank devisions and their job is to move in and annhilate any armoured support basic infanty would have in a theatre of war. they then return to base. they dont capture ground.

the Idea of the IronWing was to destroy the armour and let the rest o0f the legion capture ground. there fore under this strategic deploymwent it is feasable for the IronWing to have baneblades and even shadowswords. they donty have to move fast. THATS THE JOB OF THE RAVENWING.

the Ironwing was a hammer
the Ravenwing did recon and flankingh attacks
the Deathwing captured key targets

tau_caste
19-11-2007, 08:29
ive never heard of them having baneblades, they had fellblades. which apparently is just a marines driven baneblade..


"The Fellblade super-heavy tank is one of the largest vehicles used
by the Astartes Legions. Manufactured by the Mechanicum, and
provided to the Legions, Fellblades are among the most dreaded
sights to the enemies of the Imperium. These are formidable
machines, armed with a variety of weapons ranging from the
large caliber Fellblade cannon to the many small defensive
heavy bolters festooning its hull.

Fellblades are fitted with the most advanced compact Machine Spirits
available and are above all, crewed by the mighty Astartes themselves.
This combination makes the Fellblade an even greater threat than the
ubiquitous Baneblade used by the Imperial army.
Each Legion uses the Fellblade based upon their own tactical doctrines.
Thus, while dozens are in the inventory of the Iron Warriors, the masterraiders of the White Scars and Night Lords eschew thier use altogether."

thats from belloflostsouls.

Vaktathi
19-11-2007, 08:49
are you talking aboutr mechanised infantry or an armoured Regiment. both are completely different. and the IronWing being mechanised refers to if being the vehicle of the legion not a mechanised infantry detachment.

mechanised infantry can be fast moving as in a blizkrieg but their in is their weakness if used in such a manner. any force that gains ground too fast loses support. the importance of this comes in when you take into account fuel, ammo, and food. with out the logistical support of general troop movement forward then the mech infanty arte screwed in a protracted fight. this is why they are generaly deployed in suppport of other troops.

on the other hand you have armoured regiments/corps basicly tank devisions and their job is to move in and annhilate any armoured support basic infanty would have in a theatre of war. they then return to base. they dont capture ground.

the Idea of the IronWing was to destroy the armour and let the rest o0f the legion capture ground. there fore under this strategic deploymwent it is feasable for the IronWing to have baneblades and even shadowswords. they donty have to move fast. THATS THE JOB OF THE RAVENWING.

the Ironwing was a hammer
the Ravenwing did recon and flankingh attacks
the Deathwing captured key targets

Contrary to much popular depiction, Armored divisions are generally fast moving spearhead units, their job is typically to breach an enemy line and allow follow up forces to exploit that breach and flank and roll up the enemy line. They are not a "Hammer" in the sense that they are a bunch of big guns that blow anything they face out of existence, rather they are the hammer that breaks the plank of the enemy line, they make a hole in something and allow everything else to breach it. Think of it more as a jackhammer making a hole in something and then sticking a flamethrower in the hole. Alternatively they are also employed in obstructing enemy armored breaches and to then counterattack.

I still don't see why an SM legion like the Dark Angels not known for heavy sieges or extended armored warfare would have such a collection of superheavy battle tanks. Something like the Deathwing would serve much the same purpose as an Armored unit (breaching a key point of the enemy line with mobile, heavily armed and armored units) without needing the extensive support infrastructure of an armored force, especially with nothing stating explicitly what the Ironwing is (aside from saying they have what is now explicitly an AdMech unit), and the fact that it hasn't come up since the RT era (WD 126 was what, 1989?)



The Legions really have no problem removing a hand-full (or rhino-full as it were) from the infantry if it means a greater effectiveness on the battlefield. After all, they aren't removing them entirely from the battlefield or combat and they're still providing an effective role in the conflict. After all, they take them out of the infantry to provide crews for Land Raiders, Land Speeders, Rhinos, Landers, Thunderhawks, the top echelons of their Ships, ect. taking twelve out of several thousand wouldn't be an impossible feat for a chapter.

The whole crew doesn't have to be Space Marines, or even any of the crew, for it to be part of a chapter. The Marines are known to have a few actual Marines as the commanders of a vehicle or vessel and having the rest of it crewed by chapter serfs. Alternatively the entire Baneblade could be crewed by chapter serfs making them distinctly part of the chapter but not crewed by Marines.
Why would Marines allow Chapter serfs to crew such a powerful unit without direct Marine oversight or crew? From what I understand is that Serfs don't actually engage in combat, rather support and maintenance functions.


To Space Marines having Baneblades pre-heresy, yes, they did and we know they did. Again, *where* exactly does this come from? Is there anything directly written anywhere?


The Iron Hands gain one through their close connection with the Technocracy of Mars. I can't really see this one, given the incredible demand by the IG taking their production, it would be like IG troops that defend Mechanicus worlds obtaining Thunderhawks or Predators.


A Space Wolf armor commander takes one as a trophy from a rebellion on a forge world. (They're well known for taking even some possibly tainted trophies) Why would they take a tainted vehicle rather than just destroy it in the field, or alternativley, wouldn't the Mechanicus reclaim it? It's akin to the Imperial Guard looting a Chaos Thunderhawk. (although given much of the writing for Space Wolf background I wouldn't doubt IG Thunderhawks, the Ragnar Space Wolf books talk about Predators a common Imperial tank even though they are fielded only by SM's and Rhino's being used by IG regiments when the IG don't use them)


A Black Templar commander obtains one for use in his crusade. How would one just "obtain" a Baneblade? Having an Imperial Guard regiment that has a Baneblade on the Crusade sure, but just taking a Baneblade?


or a full blown IA article but the baneblade has been deprived of this (afaik) by our current lacklustre WD. The Imperial Armour books have large amounts of Baneblade and variant background. Imperial Armour Volume 2 (Space Marines and Inquisition) says nothing of them having Baneblades.

Brother Siccarius
19-11-2007, 18:02
Why would Marines allow Chapter serfs to crew such a powerful unit without direct Marine oversight or crew? From what I understand is that Serfs don't actually engage in combat, rather support and maintenance functions.
Again I find you using the word combat, how are you using it? Because combat isn't just fighting hand to hand or in an infantry formation combat could also be miles from the site deploying artillery, crewing a ship that's providing substantial covering fire from even further away, or crewing a tank or aircraft.

For example the thunderhawk carriers don't use an entirely marine crew, usually. They're large carriers (even though their size seems to vary in the fluff from point to point) that can carry in armored support and still provide a good amount of covering fire from the air. Not all the crew are going to be Space Marines. They often use chapter serfs as gunners or skilled co-pilots.
A Chapter serf isn't the same as a servitor, it's usually someone who's been indentured to the Chapter and who's rather skilled at what they do. They may even be able to trace their lineage back to someone working at the same station or position during the Great Crusade.



Again, *where* exactly does this come from? Is there anything directly written anywhere?
They commanded them as parts of their legions and expedition fleets, so therefore they had them. If they took part at all in the Great Crusade, which we know they did, they would have been part of one of the expedition fleets (they didn't exactly stop and go back every so often just to drop people off). If they were part of an expedition fleet they would have followed under the commands of the Space Marine Legion which commanded and headed the Fleet just as the titans did. Whether they piloted them or not is inconsequential as they were still followed under the command of the Space Marine Legions.


I can't really see this one, given the incredible demand by the IG taking their production, it would be like IG troops that defend Mechanicus worlds obtaining Thunderhawks or Predators.
Actually a more accurate description would be like the Skiitari (Who are the fighting force of any Mechanicus world) of a forge world obtaining Thunderhawks and Predators, which they do.



Why would they take a tainted vehicle rather than just destroy it in the field, or alternativley, wouldn't the Mechanicus reclaim it? It's akin to the Imperial Guard looting a Chaos Thunderhawk.

Again, battle trophies. They do it quite often and don't really mind what anyone else thinks of it. The 13th company really brings this to the fore, and aren't looked down upon by the Space Wolves but celebrated.

It's not akin to any army, because it's not just any army, it's what Space Wolves are well documented for doing.


How would one just "obtain" a Baneblade? Having an Imperial Guard regiment that has a Baneblade on the Crusade sure, but just taking a Baneblade?

You request the assistance of a baneblade or extra armored support for the crusade, and you get it, quite often actually. Again it doesn't have to be crewed by Marines to be part of their forces. And because the Black Templars is entirely divided by crusades instead of companies, it's essentially part of their arsenal until it's destroyed or sent back to the Munitorium. It's similar to requesting the assistance of a Titan, which, again, happens quite often in the large Imperium of Man, and a Space Marine chapter has a large line of credit with the Mechanicum.


The Imperial Armour books have large amounts of Baneblade and variant background. Imperial Armour Volume 2 (Space Marines and Inquisition) says nothing of them having Baneblades.

Just because forgeworld hasn't covered it doesn't mean it hasn't happened multiple times in the long long history of the Imperium. I really don't see why you're so riled up about a Marine player bringing a Baneblade to an Apocalypse game, isn't Apocalypse supposed to be entirely about fun (Not just for you but for them as well)?

Vaktathi
19-11-2007, 20:21
First off I'd like to say that everything I post is off my knowledge of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Ed Marine, CSM and IG codex's and their variants, as well as BL books like the Space Wolf Trilogy, the Iron Hands book, the Horus Heresy series, the Uriel Ventris novels, The Inquisition War trilogy, Storm of Iron, Tactica Imperialis, The Imperial Armour books, The 2nd, 3rd and 4th Ed rulebooks, and the Index Astartes articles. That's what I'm basing my arguments off of in case anyone is interested.


Again I find you using the word combat, how are you using it? Because combat isn't just fighting hand to hand or in an infantry formation combat could also be miles from the site deploying artillery, crewing a ship that's providing substantial covering fire from even further away, or crewing a tank or aircraft. Combat as in crewing weapons, operating vehicles, and conducting combat operations. From what I understand from the various SM codex's and Black Library books, the only time Serfs do this is on board Battle Barges and Strike Cruisers. Serfs really do not accompany marines onto the ground, and if they do it isn't to do any more than provide maintenance and other forms of support from my understanding.


For example the thunderhawk carriers don't use an entirely marine crew, usually. They're large carriers (even though their size seems to vary in the fluff from point to point) that can carry in armored support and still provide a good amount of covering fire from the air. Not all the crew are going to be Space Marines. They often use chapter serfs as gunners or skilled co-pilots. From what I understand they are either piloted by Marines or Servitors, and the weapons systems are controlled by these guys, I've never seen anything to contradict that. Do you have a reference?



A Chapter serf isn't the same as a servitor, it's usually someone who's been indentured to the Chapter and who's rather skilled at what they do. They may even be able to trace their lineage back to someone working at the same station or position during the Great Crusade. Serfs vary from essentially traditional household servants to failed Marine aspiriants, they generally perform maintenance duties on the weapons and armor of the marines and serve essentially as Bulters to the Marines.



They commanded them as parts of their legions and expedition fleets, so therefore they had them... Whether they piloted them or not is inconsequential as they were still followed under the command of the Space Marine Legions. I don't follow this line of reasoning. An Imperial Lord Commander may command AdMech forces, but that doesn't mean that such forces are Imperial Guard forces. Just because a Lord Commander has authority over a few AdMech units doesn't make Titans suddenly Imperial Guard inits. It doesn't mean the Vehicles belonged to, or were used by the Legions, it means that they were used by the forces under the *command* of the Legions.




Actually a more accurate description would be like the Skiitari (Who are the fighting force of any Mechanicus world) of a forge world obtaining Thunderhawks and Predators, which they do. In my previous post I was more thinking of something like the Steel Legion where the world is essentially a large AdMech industrial base, and they certainly didn't have access to anything that wasn't purely IG. Also, I've never heard of Skitarii using SM equipment, especially not Thunderhawks. I could possibly see Rhino's and variants like Predators, but nothing like Dreadnaughts, Land Raiders, Land Speeders, Drop Pods or Thunderhawks. Could you provide some sort of reference?




Again, battle trophies. They do it quite often and don't really mind what anyone else thinks of it. The 13th company really brings this to the fore, and aren't looked down upon by the Space Wolves but celebrated.

Baneblades don't really fit their style of warfare either however, and considering its not something they field, it would be very difficult to repair and keep one fielded, seeing as how its not typically something they would have and thus almost no experience with one. Using variants of your own weapons that were taken from the enemy is one thing, looting a Superheavy battletank that your chapter has little experience with is another. (also given many of the fluff hiccups in Space Wolf background I'd be suspect anyway, as I said earlier the Space Wolf trilogy makes Reference Predators being a common Imperial Guard/PDF tank and Rhino's being used by the IG when they field neither)


You request the assistance of a baneblade or extra armored support for the crusade, and you get it, quite often actually. I've never heard of Space Marines just requisitioning large Imperial Guard vehicles for their personal use. Imperial Guard units yes, so they may get a Baneblade as part of an Imperial Guard contingent to support a Crusade, but just the tank?

Furthermore, Imperial Guard units are not allowed to be directly commanded by Space Marine forces since the Heresy from what I understand of what is said by the Codex Astartes.

I'm not trying to debate that a Baneblade wouldn't show up on the board in support of the Space Marines, more what I'm trying to debate is SM's just taking a Baneblade, painting on Chapter colors and using it as a Chapter vehicle


It's similar to requesting the assistance of a Titan, which, again, happens quite often in the large Imperium of Man, and a Space Marine chapter has a large line of credit with the Mechanicum. Yes, but it will still be a Mechanicus unit in its Legio colors and crewed by the AdMech, it wouldn't become a Space Marine unit.



Just because forgeworld hasn't covered it doesn't mean it hasn't happened multiple times in the long long history of the Imperium. I really don't see why you're so riled up about a Marine player bringing a Baneblade to an Apocalypse game, isn't Apocalypse supposed to be entirely about fun (Not just for you but for them as well)? It's not so much that as the raw prostitution of the fluff in this case. "Oh look, we have no restrictions, lets take a huge Imperial Guard tank that we really wouldn't have!". I mean if someone has a couple IG infantry or a couple other IG tanks in there, its totally fine. It's just when the present a Baneblade by itself with no IG to accompany it and paint it up as a Chapter vehicle, I really can't find anything fluff-wise to justify that. To me, Apocalypse isn't about throwing it in just because you *can*, its about big fluffy battles with everything in your army that you couldn't normally field due to FoC restrictions, not just buying a model for another army and taking it just because nobody says you can't. Sure, certain things like Chaos taking Land Raider crusaders can be overlooked as its a simple enough conversion for them to do themselves, or Space Marines with Reaper Autocannons if one wished. Taking a Baneblade in IG colors with a few other IG units would make perfect sense, taking it by itself as a Chapter vehicle does not. Also, if SM's were meant to have Baneblades and the like as Chapter Vehicles, I'm sure they would have included that in Imperial Armour volume 2, I mean they made a new Land Speeder that pretty much only one chapter uses for it, and the incredibly rare Land Raider command variants, why not include an arguably just as rare Baneblade if they were intended to have them? I also never said I wouldn't play against something like that, but it would be ringing in my head as more than a bit odd the whole game.

If someone tried to take a Marine Baneblade in full chapter colors 6 months ago, it would have been unthinkable. Just like IG taking a Thunderhawk (which is perfectly legal under Apocalypse rules). But because Baneblades are now $95 instead of $300, the fluff situation has suddenly changed? Once plastic drop pods are released and some IG player decides to use them for Apoc because they are $30 instead of $70 from FW it still won't be fluffy, but you can do it, that doesn't mean it makes any sense though.

Brother Siccarius
19-11-2007, 21:11
I don't follow this line of reasoning. An Imperial Lord Commander may command AdMech forces, but that doesn't mean that such forces are Imperial Guard forces. Just because a Lord Commander has authority over a few AdMech units doesn't make Titans suddenly Imperial Guard inits. It doesn't mean the Vehicles belonged to, or were used by the Legions, it means that they were used by the forces under the *command* of the Legions.



I've never heard of Space Marines just requisitioning large Imperial Guard vehicles for their personal use. Imperial Guard units yes, so they may get a Baneblade as part of an Imperial Guard contingent to support a Crusade, but just the tank?

Furthermore, Imperial Guard units are not allowed to be directly commanded by Space Marine forces since the Heresy from what I understand of what is said by the Codex Astartes.


I'm not trying to debate that a Baneblade wouldn't show up on the board in support of the Space Marines, more what I'm trying to debate is SM's just taking a Baneblade, painting on Chapter colors and using it as a Chapter vehicle


It's not so much that as the raw prostitution of the fluff in this case. "Oh look, we have no restrictions, lets take a huge Imperial Guard tank that we really wouldn't have!". I mean if someone has a couple IG infantry or a couple other IG tanks in there, its totally fine. It's just when the present a Baneblade by itself with no IG to accompany it and paint it up as a Chapter vehicle, I really can't find anything fluff-wise to justify that. To me, Apocalypse isn't about throwing it in just because you *can*, its about big fluffy battles with everything in your army that you couldn't normally field due to FoC restrictions, not just buying a model for another army and taking it just because nobody says you can't. Sure, certain things like Chaos taking Land Raider crusaders can be overlooked as its a simple enough conversion for them to do themselves, or Space Marines with Reaper Autocannons if one wished. Taking a Baneblade in IG colors with a few other IG units would make perfect sense, taking it by itself as a Chapter vehicle does not. Also, if SM's were meant to have Baneblades and the like as Chapter Vehicles, I'm sure they would have included that in Imperial Armour volume 2, I mean they made a new Land Speeder that pretty much only one chapter uses for it, and the incredibly rare Land Raider command variants, why not include an arguably just as rare Baneblade if they were intended to have them? I also never said I wouldn't play against something like that, but it would be ringing in my head as more than a bit odd the whole game.

If someone tried to take a Marine Baneblade in full chapter colors 6 months ago, it would have been unthinkable. Just like IG taking a Thunderhawk (which is perfectly legal under Apocalypse rules). But because Baneblades are now $95 instead of $300, the fluff situation has suddenly changed? Once plastic drop pods are released and some IG player decides to use them for Apoc because they are $30 instead of $70 from FW it still won't be fluffy, but you can do it, that doesn't mean it makes any sense though.

So, in your mind is the Baneblade strictly a AdMech unit or an Imperial Guard unit? Are Baneblades created with crew attatched?

What I suggested, as to a marine owned and operated Baneblade, really had nothing to do with pulling it from an Imperial Guard unit. It had to do with bypassing the Munitorium and obtaining one straight from a forgeworld or Admech (much as how Titans are still made on Admech worlds, Baneblades are still made as well) in the same way that the Space Marines get all of their equipment.

As to maintaining it, the TechMarines are directly trained by the AdMech (in some cases it's mentioned that they're sent directly to Mars, in other cases it's mentioned as a tutoring with an Adept), and so would likely have training in a vast amount of technology that they might never actually come across again, but would need to know what to do with it if they did. It's also not entirely alien to them either, as the marines are already mentioned as having Fellblades, which could easily be represented by a BaneBlade for those not willing to pay exorbitant prices just for the rules of one tank should it have been mentioned in Imperial Armor.

Vaktathi
19-11-2007, 22:38
So, in your mind is the Baneblade strictly a AdMech unit or an Imperial Guard unit? Are Baneblades created with crew attatched? Yes, to me there is nothing to suggest that Baneblades are anything other than strictly an Imperial Guard unit within the Imperium. Same with Land Raiders and Thunderhawks being Space Marine only. No, of course the Crew are not attached but you could make the same case for the Thunderhawk, Predator, Land Raider, Land Speeder, Drop pods, etc... that only Marines get. Why can't a high ranking Imperial Guard commander be interred in a Dreadnought? It's because they are limited resources and are restricted to certain armies.


What I suggested, as to a marine owned and operated Baneblade, really had nothing to do with pulling it from an Imperial Guard unit. It had to do with bypassing the Munitorium and obtaining one straight from a forgeworld or Admech (much as how Titans are still made on Admech worlds, Baneblades are still made as well) in the same way that the Space Marines get all of their equipment. I don't see how or why a Marine chapter would actually do this however. Large tank formations and big vehicles are not exactly the hallmark of Space Marine tactics. Where the Imperial Guard would use a Baneblade to grind through a defensive line the Space Marines would use Drop-pod Terminators and overflying Thunderhawks and maybe Dreadnoughts and Land Speeders. Baneblades are units that steadily advance while giving and taking enourmous amounts of firepower, it's a strategic assault unit Marines typically don't operate in that manner. Not to mention the huge problem with blatantly bypassing the Codex Astartes regarding the seperation of Astartes from the Munitorum (or even that the AdMech would accede to that request even for a chapter like the Iron Hands.) Even Chapters that flaunt most of the Codex Astartes such as the Space Wolves and White Scars don't attempt to breach that past the Space Wolves being able to use the Leman Russ Exterminator (for obvious reasons)

Pretty much wherever a Baneblade would be required the Marines can use a Thunderhawk that had just as much firepower plus transport capability and FAR more mobility.

If Marines were able to just requisition IG equipment, why wouldn't every chapter just field Leman Russ tanks, Basilisks or Hellhounds alongside their current arsenals? Why couldn't IG turn around and requisition Predators and Rhinos? Why don't they just requisition Ordinatus engines and Titans?


As to maintaining it, the TechMarines are directly trained by the AdMech (in some cases it's mentioned that they're sent directly to Mars, in other cases it's mentioned as a tutoring with an Adept), and so would likely have training in a vast amount of technology that they might never actually come across again, but would need to know what to do with it if they did. It's also not entirely alien to them either, as the marines are already mentioned as having Fellblades, which could easily be represented by a BaneBlade for those not willing to pay exorbitant prices just for the rules of one tank should it have been mentioned in Imperial Armor. That's assuming they were given training on equipment other than on that equipment they would operate on a daily basis with like Thunderhawks and Rhinos or would likely encounter, and had parts available. I don't think Baneblades are vehicles they would likely be restoring and maintaining. Even if marines had Baneblades pre-heresy (still haven't seen anything to conclusively say they did other than pictures of Traitor legions in Collected Visions), how many Chapters would currently have available resources and parts for those vehicles, especially after 10,000 years? If they ever had them, only the first and second founding chapters (those created from the breaking up of the Legions) would really have parts and resources for them. After 10,000 years I don't think those would really be around anymore if not in at least some use.

Again, its like seeing Guard with Thunderhawks or Titans just because they have access to Techpriest Enginseers, just because they theoretically *could* doesn't mean its going to happen. These units may fight alongside them, but they are still seperate forces fighting under the same command.

Brother Siccarius
20-11-2007, 02:15
Yes, to me there is nothing to suggest that Baneblades are anything other than strictly an Imperial Guard unit within the Imperium. Same with Land Raiders and Thunderhawks being Space Marine only. No, of course the Crew are not attached but you could make the same case for the Thunderhawk, Predator, Land Raider, Land Speeder, Drop pods, etc... that only Marines get. Why can't a high ranking Imperial Guard commander be interred in a Dreadnought? It's because they are limited resources and are restricted to certain armies.


Except, those particular items you mention are not limited to Space Marines. Thunderhawks and Land Raiders are used by the Inquisiton as are drop pods. Land Speeders variants are used often in fluff and background especially when dealing with Hive Worlds or more Civilized worlds, usually simply called Air Cars.

Rhinos are used widely by a multitude of forces. Rhinos are a basic armored form of a widely used vehicle that has multiple uses, cranes and construction equipment for example. Predators are simply a variant of them.


I don't see how or why a Marine chapter would actually do this however. Large tank formations and big vehicles are not exactly the hallmark of Space Marine tactics.

A) Space Marines definitely rely on big tanks, especially certain specific chapters. What did you think Land Raiders were?

B) Baneblades are far from large tank formations, even the current formations for them are quite small as opposed to how they were used before the Heresy.


Where the Imperial Guard would use a Baneblade to grind through a defensive line the Space Marines would use Drop-pod Terminators and overflying Thunderhawks and maybe Dreadnoughts and Land Speeders.

Where as they could save the lives, time, and be more efficient by deploying a Baneblade supported by their Predators, Land Raiders, or Vindicators. They are nothing if not efficient.


Baneblades are units that steadily advance while giving and taking enourmous amounts of firepower, it's a strategic assault unit Marines typically don't operate in that manner.
Actually that pretty much describes Marine tactics to a T. It's only on the table top that you see most Marine armies stuck in a single place for the entire game. in the Background they're all about the steady advance while pouring out tons of firepower (as can be seen in books like the Ragnar Novels, the HH Books, ect.)

Not to mention the huge problem with blatantly bypassing the Codex Astartes regarding the seperation of Astartes from the Munitorum (or even that the AdMech would accede to that request even for a chapter like the Iron Hands.) Even Chapters that flaunt most of the Codex Astartes such as the Space Wolves and White Scars don't attempt to breach that past the Space Wolves being able to use the Leman Russ Exterminator (for obvious reasons)

And yet my suggestion was still a separation of Munitorium and Astartes by simply bypassing the Munitorium and going straight to the Mechanicus and petitioning for either a FellBlade or a BaneBlade. The Mechanicus is far from infallible and several chapters are known to offer services to the Mechanicum or specific Forge Worlds in return for better equipment (Iron Hands, Space Wolves, ect.). They even respond well to bribery and should a functioning STC be found while cleansing some far away hive world it's easy to ransom it for some better equipment or trading rights. Then again, while the mechanius may control the Forge Worlds, Marine chapters are capable of holding regions of space (sometimes vast regions in the case of the Ultramarines) and auctioning off the rights to a vast mineral reserve can be a popular way to curry favor of the Mechanicus.



Pretty much wherever a Baneblade would be required the Marines can use a Thunderhawk that had just as much firepower plus transport capability and FAR more mobility.

Yet to use a Thunderhawk's transport capacity you'd have to either have a large number of jump troops or some kind of landing facility directly on the battlefield (not likely but possible).


If Marines were able to just requisition IG equipment, why wouldn't every chapter just field Leman Russ tanks, Basilisks or Hellhounds alongside their current arsenals? Why couldn't IG turn around and requisition Predators and Rhinos? Why don't they just requisition Ordinatus engines and Titans?


Most marine chapters have something better than those, they're called Predators, Land Raiders, and Vindicators. Marines are a more surgical force than the hammer of the Guard preferring weaponry that can pinpoint a single heavy enemy rather than simply bombard it constantly. The Baneblade on the other hand is a Siege Tank, and doesn't particularly designate itself to one side or the other. Being more of a mobile fortress for use against heavy concentrations of the enemy than simply pounding an enemy down until it's gone or being a pinpoint accurate strike.

No one really requisitions Ordinatus enigines as they're extreemly rare, only a handful even exist.

As to Titans, anyone can request the help of one, Inquisitors, IG, Marines... Just petition the Adeptus Mechanicus.



That's assuming they were given training on equipment other than on that equipment they would operate on a daily basis with like Thunderhawks and Rhinos or would likely encounter, and had parts available. I don't think Baneblades are vehicles they would likely be restoring and maintaining. Even if marines had Baneblades pre-heresy (still haven't seen anything to conclusively say they did other than pictures of Traitor legions in Collected Visions), how many Chapters would currently have available resources and parts for those vehicles, especially after 10,000 years? If they ever had them, only the first and second founding chapters (those created from the breaking up of the Legions) would really have parts and resources for them. After 10,000 years I don't think those would really be around anymore if not in at least some use.

The Question is not truely if it was written that they did or if they do, but if they could. GW leaves a lot to the Imagination because it doesn't want people to go Fluff Fascist on anyone with a different idea of what might be cool to use. And the answer is, it's possible that they could (and that's what Apocalyple is all about, what's possible), and it's known that they did use variant Baneblades, the FellBlade (which aren't in any remarkable way different from a normal Baneblade).



Again, its like seeing Guard with Thunderhawks or Titans just because they have access to Techpriest Enginseers, just because they theoretically *could* doesn't mean its going to happen. These units may fight alongside them, but they are still seperate forces fighting under the same command.
Guard can have titans on the Battlefield, they could always have titans on the Battlefield. Like the Space marine first founding chapters the list of Titan Legions is not complete, and how they operate is up to you to decide. As to Thunderhawks, well, anything is possible in Apocalypse, it's just up to you to find a reason for it.

I myself am fielding a Gargant/mobile zoo with Carnifex and Chaos Dreadnaught within it's cells.

Vaktathi
20-11-2007, 03:28
Except, those particular items you mention are not limited to Space Marines. Thunderhawks and Land Raiders are used by the Inquisiton as are drop pods. Land Speeders variants are used often in fluff and background especially when dealing with Hive Worlds or more Civilized worlds, usually simply called Air Cars. Where is the reference to Inquisitors using anything besides Land Raiders and Rhino's and variant Land Speeders being used in other places? I've never seen that before. The actual Land Speeder is from what I understand of the various Land vehicles a very specialized assault vehicle.


Rhinos are used widely by a multitude of forces. Rhinos are a basic armored form of a widely used vehicle that has multiple uses, cranes and construction equipment for example. Predators are simply a variant of them. Rhino's are used by SM's, the Inquisition, and the Witch Hunters as far as I know. Never read much (except the bunk fluff from the Space Wolves trilogy) where they were used outside of that. They just happen to be common on the table because the aggregated armies that use them are a huge percentage of the armies, it doesn't mean they are widespread outside of those small (relatively) organizations.



A) Space Marines definitely rely on big tanks, especially certain specific chapters. What did you think Land Raiders were? Heavy assault transports?


B) Baneblades are far from large tank formations, even the current formations for them are quite small as opposed to how they were used before the Heresy. Baneblades generally aren't fielded by themselves, they usually form an armored core, 1-3 baneblades with multiple smaller tanks and attendant infantry profividing support. They are usually part of a larger strategic offensive.




Where as they could save the lives, time, and be more efficient by deploying a Baneblade supported by their Predators, Land Raiders, or Vindicators. They are nothing if not efficient. A Baneblade is much slower than everything else in the Space Marine armies. They would also have to be deployed by very large and very vulnerable orbital landers well away from any AA defenses near the front line and then make the slow trek to the forward positions. Why not just use Thunderhawks and get the same firepower with greater mobility and survivability as well as transport capability?



Actually that pretty much describes Marine tactics to a T. It's only on the table top that you see most Marine armies stuck in a single place for the entire game. in the Background they're all about the steady advance while pouring out tons of firepower (as can be seen in books like the Ragnar Novels, the HH Books, ect.) I always thought of space marines as assault troops and heavily armed commando's with orbital fire support and limited armor assets engaging in swift and brutal strikes to destroy a foe, not something thats going to sit out in the open an plod forward inch by inch laying down a hail of fire. That's what the Guard does (and why they couldn't get Marines to take on the the Citadel on Vraks, no chapter would commit to that sort of warfare, they Dark Angles destroyed the spaceport far away from the citadel using mechanized infantry and liberal use of Thunderhawk gunships)



And yet my suggestion was still a separation of Munitorium and Astartes by simply bypassing the Munitorium and going straight to the Mechanicus and petitioning for either a FellBlade or a BaneBlade. The Mechanicus is far from infallible and several chapters are known to offer services to the Mechanicum or specific Forge Worlds in return for better equipment (Iron Hands, Space Wolves, ect.). They even respond well to bribery and should a functioning STC be found while cleansing some far away hive world it's easy to ransom it for some better equipment or trading rights. Then again, while the mechanius may control the Forge Worlds, Marine chapters are capable of holding regions of space (sometimes vast regions in the case of the Ultramarines) and auctioning off the rights to a vast mineral reserve can be a popular way to curry favor of the Mechanicus. again, is there *anything* to back this up? Is there anything to say that the AdMech would violate such a basic Imperial tenant? They may not be above bribes, but they probably aren't stupid enough to do something that would warrant Inquisitorial intervention. Again, if SM chapters could do this, why don't we see more IG stuff in their hands like Basilisks and Battlecannon Leman Russ tanks and Hellhounds? Why would they even need Baneblades when they have Thunderhawks?




Yet to use a Thunderhawk's transport capacity you'd have to either have a large number of jump troops or some kind of landing facility directly on the battlefield (not likely but possible). It's got landing gear, it doesn't need anything more than an open clearing to land. Regardless it still packs the same firepower of a Baneblade with greater mobility and striking capabiltiy, but also transport capacity. Why would Marines need a Baneblade when they have Thunderhawks? It serves the same purpose for the SM army.



Most marine chapters have something better than those, they're called Predators, Land Raiders, and Vindicators. I'd think a Leman Russ Demolisher or Thunderer (up-armored Vindi) would be better in every way than a Vindicator, a Basilisk capable of longer range fire and heavier shells than a Whirlwind, a Leman Russ or Hellhound capable of providing greater anti-infantry firepower than a Predator, or at least comparable firepower on either a heavier frame or a lighter frame depending on the needs.


Marines are a more surgical force than the hammer of the Guard preferring weaponry that can pinpoint a single heavy enemy rather than simply bombard it constantly. I dunno, that describes some Guard armies, certainly not others like Elysians or the Harakoni.


The Baneblade on the other hand is a Siege Tank, and doesn't particularly designate itself to one side or the other. Being more of a mobile fortress for use against heavy concentrations of the enemy than simply pounding an enemy down until it's gone or being a pinpoint accurate strike. it's incapable of keeping up with the normal pace of a Space Marine army, its maximum speed is less than half that of a Land Raider, almost a third that of a Predator or Rhino (According to Imperial Armour Volume 1&2.) a BB is slower, easier to hit, doesn't have any transport capacity, and is much harder to obtain than a Thunderhawk, and a BB would slow down an SM force operating in the field. Not seeing where it would be a favorite.


No one really requisitions Ordinatus enigines as they're extreemly rare, only a handful even exist. True, but there are other smaller versions as well. They remain firmly in AdMech hands.


As to Titans, anyone can request the help of one, Inquisitors, IG, Marines... Just petition the Adeptus Mechanicus. They can petition for their support yes, it doesn't mean they can just "obtain" one and it doesn't mean the AdMech is going to accede to their request.




The Question is not truely if it was written that they did or if they do, but if they could. GW leaves a lot to the Imagination because it doesn't want people to go Fluff Fascist on anyone with a different idea of what might be cool to use. And the answer is, it's possible that they could (and that's what Apocalyple is all about, what's possible), and it's known that they did use variant Baneblades, the FellBlade (which aren't in any remarkable way different from a normal Baneblade). Where is the Fellblade from? Is it just in Collected Visions? (it seems odd that the only evidence is in a $40 background book) Even then, you'd assume they would have variants like the Shadowsword and the like, but I haven't seen too many Marine players that are too keen on buying one, just the cheap Baneblade now that its out and Apoc removes all army restrictions.


Guard can have titans on the Battlefield, they could always have titans on the Battlefield. Yes, but they weren't *Guard* units, they were taken as a seperate FoC to represent an attached AdMech contingent in game terms, and in Fluff terms the Titans may accompany the IG, but they pretty much do what they want most of the time and have to be harangued into cooperating fully with the IG commanders.


As to Thunderhawks, well, anything is possible in Apocalypse, it's just up to you to find a reason for it. Yes, anything is possible, and I can see many things being done for a special megabattle or something, but to field a Thunderhawk for IG in every Apoc game that you play once a month or so would start to get very silly after a while, especially if its just because you can (which is what I'm seeing alot of that I guess I'm kinda getting twirked at) If it makes sense within the fluff and there is something to back it up fine. If you want to take something similar from another codex (e.g. LRC in a Chaos army or using the rules for a Chaos dread or Chaos dreadclaw drop-pod in an SM army) thats fine, nobody will care. But when its being taken just because it can and then fluff made up afterwards with nothing to support it gets odd unless you have some sort of rolling narrative campaign. It's like the 13 year old snot that shows up with a poorly painted Smurf army and a Baneblade or the guy that hasn't read anything of the new blood angels codex except Mephiston and the Death Company and now sees the shiny new BB and just starts going for gold on it just because there isnt anythign saying he can't and he just wants to be a beardy git. Someone taking a Thunderhawk with a Guard army and a couple squads of SM? Fine. Taking a thunderhawk and stuffing it with 30 Ogryn and painting it in Regimental colors? ehh....
Same thing with a Baneblade. Baneblade in SM army painted in IG colors with a couple IG squads to go with it, thats fine. Baneblade in SM colors with no IG? same result as above.

To me, if the Baneblade was meant to be fielded at any time by any Imperial army, it would have been in the generic "Impeium" apocalypse section with Thunderbolts and Titans rather than under the very specific "Imperial Guard" section. That, to me, says it was meant to be fielded as an allied contingent.


I myself am fielding a Gargant/mobile zoo with Carnifex and Chaos Dreadnaught within it's cells. If the object is silliness for its own sake, thats another matter and is also totally fine. ( I would like to see that if you ever get pics up) Silliness for the sake of silliness is different than taking something just because you want the big scary tank of doom and the rules have gone out the window.


(also to reiterate for anyone reading this, everything I post is off my knowledge of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Ed Marine, CSM and IG codex's and their variants, as well as BL books like the Space Wolf Trilogy, the Iron Hands book, the Horus Heresy series, the Uriel Ventris novels, The Inquisition War trilogy, Storm of Iron, Tactica Imperialis, The Imperial Armour books, The 2nd, 3rd and 4th Ed rulebooks, and the Index Astartes articles.)

bigred
20-11-2007, 03:48
Based on my research, the major differentiating line was the Heresy.

Before, you see a very "loose" way of thinking, with thousands of expeditionary fleets each under control of a single Legion, and folded up under their command are myriad and sundry Guard and Mechanicus armies and formations.

The Mechanicus was just pounding out equipment as fast as possible and getting it out to these fleets to keep them well armed, and there was a good amount of flexibility in the fleets. Thus you see Guard units using Land Raiders, Mechanicus Robots being attached freely to forces as needed, and even Legion Fellblades and Mammoth superheavies.

Post Heresy, you see the Imperium really beginning to compartmentalize its military forces (mainly to ensure the events of the Heresy could never happen again). So you see the exotic high-tech equipment like Land Raiders/speeders being given over to the now smaller Marine Chapters, while the Guard got the Baneblade, and lost control of their fleets. The Mechanicus removed many of their specialized forces such as robots altogether from 3rd party control.

So in short: Baneblades for Marine Chapters inthe 40th millenia...no way no how. First Founding Chapters with a handful of 10,000 year old Fellblades/Mammoths protected under stasis fields (remember that some of their Venerable Dreadnoughts are this old and still function)...perhaps.

But as a matter general usefulness, these massive war-machines just don't mesh with existing Marine offensive shock doctrines well at all. Outside of homeworld defense, or a long-planned assault against a fixed position with no guard support (a very rare instance I would think), These ancient relics may sit for another 10,000 years with little to no use.

On the Traitor side of things, its a different ballgame especially when you are talking about the Iron Warriors. I would expect them to field their surviving super-heavies any chance they get, and probably go out of their way to salvage and convert any Baneblades they disable in the field.

-bigred

Rabid Bunny 666
20-11-2007, 17:24
EDIT: Found it! WD 120 article on Superheavies, apparently.

http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heavytanksfullscene60dy7.jpg

Man thats awesome, i'm sorely tempted to convert a Baneblade into the one with 4 turrets...

As to the original post, i din't think there is any written text on the Marine legions using Baneblades, but in Collected Visions, the Fellblades are practically the same thing, so common sense would say that a handful may still remain in Marine hands.

As to Baneblades, i think chapters that have a strong link to the AM may be given "off the lorry" baneblades.

edit: just for completeness' sale, Collected Vision page references to Baneblasde (or variant) lookalikes.

Page 79, 382, Khatek*Sons of Horus Fellblade - Appears to have a reversed sponson config (HBs on top, Lascannon underneath, unprotected tracks.
Page 94, 381, The Imperial Reaper*Death Guard - Unprotected tracks again, sponsons not in picture due to angle.
Page 287, 385, Mordant Mammoth Heavy Tank*Dath Guard - Looks like a Shadowsword with a more rounded top section, Lascannos replace HBs on sponsons.

There you go... 3 Marine super heavies resembling Baneblades :D