View Full Version : You think this is too much cheese for a friendly game?

16-11-2007, 18:16
It doesn't really matter what the rest of the army is, except I'd include maybe 2 Mages with Dispells, and a small unit of shadows for screen, but the poll is:

Would you cry 'Cheese' if you were against a HE player that put down this Unit (first placement,) right in the middle of the board? Remember, (I don't know if it matters too much) this is supposed to be a friendly game.

Korhil + Caradryan in one unit of 16 Sword Masters.

Now I know the initial replys are going to be:

"Point sink" and "Artillery/Warmachine/Pincushions."

But really in real life, if you knew that your opponents main 'hitty' unit was, Strike First, 16 5+str attacks (4 Killing Blow, 3 d3 wounds +flaming), cause fear, stubborn on a 9, and MR3, you would grin and bear it? Could you keep quiet?

16-11-2007, 20:01
I wouldnt mind it for a few games but I might get bored if you fielded this unit every game we played.

Reason being the game will revolve around that unit. As a dwarf player my strategy would revolve around shooting the crap out of it, a Wood Elf player would build there strategy around just avoiding the thing and stopping it making back its points.

So as an occasional thing fine but as a regular thing a unit that dominates the style of play so much could lead to the exact same battle happening over and over again

16-11-2007, 20:13
Normal. Why not to use your armybook's possibilities? However, I never play special characters.

16-11-2007, 21:02
I'd just nail the SMs to the ground with my 45 DE crossbow men:)
Naah, I guess its OK, but I'd ask my oponent (if its a regular oponent, like friend or something) if he dont mind use of special characters...


16-11-2007, 22:37
I hate plaing special character games for pretty much this reason.

And why special characters in 7th Ed? Why didn't they start a shift to special, famous units? Would be more fun, knowable, and make them more cash anyway.

Dead Man Walking
16-11-2007, 23:12
Strikes first is not going to save your butt with this unit. Now that people have seen what elves have to throw out you can be sure that players will build into thier armies ways of dealing with strikes first elves.

1. Shooting. Most elves will be played defensively (to take advantage of fighting in 3 ranks.) Defensive goes no where when your opponent stands back and magic/shoots you down.
2. Chariots. Chariots impart impact hits -before- you strike first. 2 chariots (Or a snotling pump wagon.) will spell doom for you.
2. Monsterous creatures with impact hits.
3. You will see that everyone will start adding first strike weapons to thier characters that have higher initiative as a defence against elves, espeacially so in tournament lists where you dont know who you will end up against and more so since you will expect to see elves in tourneys.
4. Other first strike elves.
5. Fanatics.
6. Unbreakable units. Slayers, ect.

So before you go running head long into your own disapointment you may want to check your cheese and try to cover your bases first.

17-11-2007, 00:01
The only army I can think of that that'd be a problem for is chaos, and even then only if they don't like chariots. Stubborn is useless for Swordmasters in 90% of cases anyway.

Go nuts.

17-11-2007, 00:08
my beastmen wouldnt worry to much about them, 3 chariots testing on 9s with a reroll should pretty much sort that unit out:D

17-11-2007, 00:33
I would complain for one fundamental reason: I hate special characters.

Why I hate them is they determine the game most of the time due to the amount of points sunk into them. Either you kill 'em and you win, or you don't and you lose.

It takes a lot of the fun out of the game.

17-11-2007, 01:21
I'd have a lot of fun against that unit, so many redundancies it isn't funny. Against chaos it could be nasty, but just about everything else, well, that unit will set you back, what over 600 points, with a lot of that in the swordmasters. easy points...

17-11-2007, 01:56
Sure, if you want to deploy Swordmasters in three ranks like that AND put two characters in there, knock yourself out.

17-11-2007, 01:58
thats kinda unnecessary, with the special characters and the extra SM's. And by kinda unnecessary i mean completely unnecessary. if ur going to take a block of elite infantry, take PG. PG hav a 4+ ward so they's actually liv through the stuff shot at them, unless really concentrated fire, but then anything will die. Anyway, SM's get combat res through kills, WL's are stubborn so dont care about res, and PG are tough and durable (for elves). so if u are making a block, use PG. And dont use Korhil in that unit, mayb Caradryan tho cus he would help with enemy magic at the PG, and the thing when he dies is just funny. Anyway, i wouldnt really call it cheese, cus i dont think its all that amazing. If u could giv me 10 dragon princes in lance formation led by a lord on stardragon (hes in the lance formation too), that has magic resistance(more than spell) and -10 to hit with missile weapons, and immunity to S10 shooting, then id call cheese. A lot of cheese.

A stardragon-load of cheese.

17-11-2007, 02:21
Just to go tangential here for a second:

Since you deploy characters last, you'd really be deploying a unit of 16 swordmasters. Nobody would call that cheese, although you might wait 'til later to deploy your elite infantry to see what your opponent's up to.

Now, when you drop the 2 special characters into the unit later I'll be laughing to myself.

I, like others really have a distaste for special characters but this primarily goes with playing the game for 20 years and if you like them it's fine with me.

Since my main army at present is an all-elf wood elf army, you might imagine the horror of shooting that would be coming your way. My last 2250 tournament list put out 86 shots a turn...

My empire and dwarf armies really won't be terribly worried either but for much different reasons. Taking a unit of empire knights in each flank at the same time is a highly unpleasant experience for any unit and happens more often than you'd like. Dwarf bolt-throwers can make mince-meat of ranked elves. But then again, so can ironbreakers.

So, as others have said: knock yourself out. I hardly think it's a wise choice but it's not really 'cheesy' either. You'll probably find yourself running in another direction quickly enough once you've tried this build.

Dead Man Walking
17-11-2007, 03:37
However if I was playing you in a tourney I would knock out your sportsmanship points like crazy. I don't care about winning but I will make a competetive list with the intentions of winning. What really gets my goat is when I see a white lions character in a unit of swordmasters and no other white lions in the army just to get stubborn. I'd also tell you about it and make it pointedly candid so you knew exactly what I was refering to.

There is winning, which you might as well load your dice if thats all you care about which makes the entire game pointless, and then theres winning in style, and that my friends takes dedication and observance of the fluff.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
17-11-2007, 04:27
I dont think that either of the characters are overpowered. Taking both in 2000pts simply leaves him lordless... A generic lord would anahilate either although you migh want to think twice about how you kill caradryan! I think it makes the game more exciting and dynamic when you have named characters. (not lords they are POWERFUL) Reminds me of my lotr days... It is more fun to play with a theme. If your opponent hasa named character it seems like autopilot directs all your missiles and eveything to kill him! Go with the flow! :)

17-11-2007, 10:20
I think i would have to burn you at the stake if you used that list against me, i generally hate special characters at any rate, it could however be funny to use a chariot and giant arm vs you :)

17-11-2007, 10:35
I fought the new HE yesterday, and the strike first rule wasnt as big an advantage as I first though(though it ruined all my fast attack plans:(). So whetever you do, dont expect thet strike first will win you the fight, cause it wont. Good Tactics will:)

The game ended a draw, since all my fast attack died before they could do what they were supposed to do, but the swordmasters and archie fell easily to my crossbow fire, so if you use a superexpensive unit of them, make sure the cant be shot(!!!).


Defender of Ulthuan
17-11-2007, 19:55
Why would either Korhil or Caradryan ever join a unit of Swordmasters? They have their own bodyguards, and are always with a few. I wouldn't refuse to play you or cry cheese, but I might have to punch you for the sheer unfluffiness of it all. Next thing you'll say is that they have the banner of Ellyrian.....

18-11-2007, 15:18
Hmm, at the end of the day its a valid combination...even if it rubs the fluff the wrong way as Defender of Ulthuan pointed out. But what the hell, I'd give it a shot at taking down.

Your Mum Rang
19-11-2007, 13:36
Add in a BSB for more cheese....

19-11-2007, 23:06
Swordmasters eh? well, my main army is night gobbos (note NOT O&G) and it is quite well equipped to take out wlite infantry (read fanatics). also, the list im working on at the mo is HE with 2 dragons. So dragon fire twice in your flank/rear each turn should soften you up :P


20-11-2007, 00:46
Well. Thanks guys for the feedback. In me defense I have not run this unit, but I use it in examples of what the HE can do to scare off the kids at my local store. Every time I 'threaten' to run that unit in my next match with them the stop annoying me for a couple hours.

As far as most of these answers go its either, 'un-fluffy,' or 'I hate special characters.'

In response to this I say, like Tutore says "Why not to use your armybook's possibilities?" If you can use Special Characters in any game, including GT games, why not?
If you can put Special Characters in any unit, why not? Fluff aside.

In the previous edition, I saw stubborn lion guard characters in swords all the time... with a BSB. They took that out, except when running special characters. I don't know what to say, its a viable tactic.

I run special characters in friendly games. Why? Because I don't like what options you have without them, and I think that was GW's intention. I like the new teclis, I have lost every game I played with him, but I like his abilities. As soon as I can find a way to keep him from dying... I'll play him more. But in tourneys, no specials, because I know the complaints, the cry of cheese, the whining.

All of you who said 'I hate special characters,' should take a real quick look at what you voted. You should've voted that you'd complain. Whining at the fact that I took special characters in no different than crying cheese at the new HE book because of what it can do, or what Swordmasters can do, or the ASF rule, its still whining.

On a side note btw, the two dragon list is really fun to play and can win. It won me the tourney I was in this weekend.