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View Full Version : Question about Fulgrim's fall *Poss spoilers*



vargojones
16-11-2007, 19:40
I've just recently finished Fulgrim, and at the end where he lets himself go to the daemon, i get the distinct feeling he really regretted what he did (being possessed and killing Ferrus). Horus certainly seemed surprised. But my question is, if Fulgrim the daemon could be exorcised and his body returned would primarch Fulgrim be loyal to the Emperor. ( i appreciate he would be destroyed by the Malleus, but this is a question of hypotheticals).

I honestly felt sorry for him at the end though, and i felt it was a truly sad story , and a gut wrenching betrayl :cries:

Andy

heretics bane
16-11-2007, 19:44
Yes he probebly would be loyal but more than likely utterly insane, 10k years trapped in your own head would drive you mad. Horus was aginst Fulgrim being posseed and inteneded to free him as soon as the siege of terra was over, well it didnt work outvery well

vargojones
16-11-2007, 19:55
yeah i got the distinct feeling Horus was very tempted to bump off Fulgrim there and then, but thought he may be useful. If only he hadn't found that damned sword, i really feel sorry for Fulgrim, he was a pawn in a sequence of events he didn't comprehend due to his ego getting in the way.

Dark_Element
17-11-2007, 00:53
I don't know. You free him, then what - doesn't he have a serpents body and a bunch af arms now?

Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.

-DE

zendral
17-11-2007, 01:56
I don't know. You free him, then what - doesn't he have a serpents body and a bunch af arms now?

Maybe I'm thinking of someone else.

-DE

You got it. After the war was in full swing, the daemon kept his promise that he would re-shape fulgrims body to fit his needs. In the end, I imagine fulgrim dying and his spirit floating away...instead of having his old body back and rejoining the emperor. Truly a unique thing, how fulgrim became a daemon primarch. Possessed, not elevated.

Yup, it is sad. I used to think magnus had the saddest story of all the chaos primarchs, untill I read about poor fulgrim. :cries:;)

Wazzahamma
17-11-2007, 02:58
I imagine that an excorcised Fulgrim (if he wasn't already mad) would end up committing suicide. If he was distraught enough to attempt it at the onset of the heresy when he realised how far he'd fallen, imagine how horrified, disgusted and shattered he'd be by the last 10,000 years worth of perverted evil carried out in his name...

chris.seraphim
17-11-2007, 13:10
At this point the daemon IS fulgrim and fulgrim IS the daemon. If the daemon was banished or whatever, then fulgrim would die physically, but is probabaly trapped in thrall to whatever (i'd assume) Keeper of Secrets was trapped in the Laer sword and his soul will be used as a plaything for ALL time.

Theresd a moral in there kids.....don't be so frakking arrogant, or a big dammon will posess you, kill your best friend and turn you into a great be-titted worm forever.....

Lastie
17-11-2007, 14:21
I honestly felt sorry for him at the end though, and i felt it was a truly sad story , and a gut wrenching betrayl :cries:



Betrayal indeed. What was a fantastic description of pride consuming all becomes a cheap cop-out 'he was possessed!' instead. What a great example of one of the many wall bangers (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.WallBanger) present in the new Horus Heresy collection. Blaming Fulgrims fall on a Daemon doesn't make it tragic in any way, it just cheapens things and spits in his eye. Fulgrim wanted to become perfect, and Daemonhood was his path to perfection (And when you worship the god of the fanatical desire of perfection, it's a handy bonus).

And the moral of the story? Don't try and insert morals into a universe that doesn't have any. It just makes things messy. :rolleyes:

Ending on a good note, as I do believe I complain about the HH series too much these days, finally got around to reading Horus Rising and am enjoying it thoroughly. I look forward to Legion to see what else Abnett does to renew my faith in BL literature.

The pestilent 1
17-11-2007, 14:28
yeah i got the distinct feeling Horus was very tempted to bump off Fulgrim there and then, but thought he may be useful. If only he hadn't found that damned sword, i really feel sorry for Fulgrim, he was a pawn in a sequence of events he didn't comprehend due to his ego getting in the way.

Because Horus, Magnus and basically everyone barring That Word bearers pratt Lorgar weren't?

Commander Dante
17-11-2007, 15:29
As i understood it Horus's intentions were to free Fulgrim (kill him in order to end his suffering). If it were not for the deamon Fulgrim would have been a loyalist primarch.

vargojones
17-11-2007, 15:52
Because Horus, Magnus and basically everyone barring That Word bearers pratt Lorgar weren't?

That's not what i was saying, ultimately Lorgar is the true reason for the Heresy. But in the specific context of my post i was referring to Fulgrim.

If the EC hadn't gone to Laer, then maybe Fulgrim would have been able to pull back from the brink. I think he would have followed Horus to an extent, but not to betray his brother Ferrus, and would have returned to the fold of the Emperor. Though maybe certain dissidents like Fabius, and Lucius would have split from the EC.

As a side question is Ancient Rylanor still alive?

mick005usa
17-11-2007, 16:08
Weren't the Illuminati the folks that got possessed by daemons and "lived" or what have you?

What if a primarch could weather 10,000+ years of possesion. He would certainly be an insightful fella' when it came to fighting Chaos. Would certainly alter the equation, for all concerned.

Wazzahamma
17-11-2007, 22:28
let's imagine that, rather than simply enduring torture for 10,000 years in despair, fulgrim's soul rededicated itself to perfection and the emperor and attempted to fight back against the daemon-prince.

so that in a reverse of fulgrim being possessed by the daemon- the daemon is now possessed by fulgrim.

imagine that, one hundred years after the heresy on a planet named thessala, the daemon prince fulgrim is about to deliver the killing stroke that will decapitate roboute guilliman of the ultramarines. the voice of fulgrim cries out from within in outrage and horror in an attempt to stay his own hand from murdering another brother. while he doesn't fully succeed, he does manage to keep the sword stroke from cutting off the ultramarine primarch's head, instead only cutting him across the throat with it's poison laced edge, lending guilliman a chance (however slim) of survival.

heretics bane
18-11-2007, 11:49
As a side question is Ancient Rylanor still alive?

I started a thread a few months back asking the same question, if you search it we discussed that he went away to protect "something" which we though was an under ground hanger possiblie full of old goodies(maybe some STC stuff) and possiblie contained some ships to if they could survive long enough and the warmaster would leave, so they could escape. but the Inqusition have delarced Istavann III pertius(sp?) where no one can set foot on the planet

nagash66
18-11-2007, 13:20
I started a thread a few months back asking the same question, if you search it we discussed that he went away to protect "something" which we though was an under ground hanger possiblie full of old goodies(maybe some STC stuff) and possiblie contained some ships to if they could survive long enough and the warmaster would leave, so they could escape. but the Inqusition have delarced Istavann III pertius(sp?) where no one can set foot on the planet


So there is a chance that a loyal 10000+ year old dread is still out there...i smell a very very good story

heretics bane
19-11-2007, 18:29
If he went into shut down mode adn managed to suvive the last virul bombing, which he probebly did as hes covered with thousands of tonnes of radioactive slag etc. could even still be some marines in suspended animation, but highly unlikely as the longest recoreded time in SA is some thing around 572 years.

Commander Dante
20-11-2007, 00:07
Roboute Guilliman and The lion were put in SA that is more than 500.

brettz123
20-11-2007, 03:50
If he went into shut down mode adn managed to suvive the last virul bombing, which he probebly did as hes covered with thousands of tonnes of radioactive slag etc. could even still be some marines in suspended animation, but highly unlikely as the longest recoreded time in SA is some thing around 572 years.

That is incorrect. One of the BL books has a Dark Angel in suspended animation from before the heresy. So somewhere around 10000 years.

Brother Siccarius
20-11-2007, 04:32
A couple of things I keep thinking back on;

Actually I got the feeling from the last bit that fulgrim is no longer attached to his body at all. Similar to how the Demon was continually jumping from the Sword to Fulgrim to the Painting, Fulgrim was presumably trapped in the Painting at the last part of the Book.

Also, at one point, when Fulgrim kills Ferrus, it seems to allude to his soul being sent to the warp, then carried back by the demon, if it was simply a Demon. I keep getting the sinking feeling that the Prince of Pain and Pleasure took a more....active role in corrupting Fulgrim than any of the other gods took in corrupting their legions.

I keep coming back to really how young Slaanesh was at the time and how Old Eldrad must be. Slaanesh's Birth, and hence the Fall of the Eldar, was signaled by both the creation of the Eye of Terror and the massive Warp storms (which had cut off Warp travel through all but the Webway) around the Galaxy being blown out like a candle. Meaning that that would have been around the time the Emperor began to expand the Crusade, meaning that the Slaanesh couldn't have been more than a handful of centuries old at the time Fulgrim was corrupted. Apparently the time of the Heresy was a Great Ending and Starting point for a lot of things, and they all seem to have happened quickly.

BaronDG
20-11-2007, 08:59
I just can't get over page 488:

"What have I done?" he howled. "Throne save me, what have I done?"

Throne? As in the golden throne, yet to be created? This ruined the book for me. I guess it was always on the edge of ruin since the "oh, an evil sword, how original" moment.

Too bad, since it has a few good pages as well...

Fox_13
20-11-2007, 09:42
I just can't get over page 488:

"What have I done?" he howled. "Throne save me, what have I done?"

Throne? As in the golden throne, yet to be created? This ruined the book for me. I guess it was always on the edge of ruin since the "oh, an evil sword, how original" moment.

Too bad, since it has a few good pages as well...

All throughout the books people use the throne as an exclamation. They aren't talking about the Golden Throne that the Emp has/will create but the embodiment of Imperial power that is the Emp and his throne.

Back on topic Fulgrim would of still followed Horus into his Heresy even if he left the Lear alone. It will of taken more persuading than it did but Horus could of swayed the massive ego that is the Primarch. So would the Emperors Children still fallen to Slaneesh during the heresy without the help of the demon? Yes but it would of been far more subtle and more difficult for Slaneesh to pull of and would of weekend the power of Slaneesh during the Heresy.

The real question isn't about Fulgrim but about Magnus. What would of happened if one of the other primarchs had been sent to bring in Magnus rather than the the raving idiot in charge of the Space Wolves?
Tzeench's curruption was far more subtle and long term than the plan Slaneesh had and could of matured after the Heresy.

Wazzahamma
20-11-2007, 10:29
Back on topic Fulgrim would of still followed Horus into his Heresy even if he left the Lear alone. It will of taken more persuading than it did but Horus could of swayed the massive ego that is the Primarch. So would the Emperors Children still fallen to Slaneesh during the heresy without the help of the demon? Yes but it would of been far more subtle and more difficult for Slaneesh to pull of and would of weekend the power of Slaneesh during the Heresy.

The Slaanesh daemon appears to disagree with you:


'Did you really think you were that good an orator?' chuckled the daemon. 'You have me to thank for clouding his perceptions and adding his strength to yours. But for me, he would have run to his Emperor screaming of your imminent betrayal.'

The daemon Fulgrim talking to Horus: False Gods page 503-4.

Even with the daemon's influence it still took both Horus and Erebus three days to convince Fulgrim to even contemplate betraying the Emperor. Three days.

THE CHIEF
20-11-2007, 11:02
The daemon Fulgrim talking to Horus: Fulgrim page 503-4.[/I].
^fixed.

I can't make up my mind if Fulgrim was just an idiot and deserved his fate, or if it is actually tragic...One thing is for sure, and that is that being trapped in a small corner of your own mind while a creature of malice and evil controlls your actions for over 10,000 years, all the while tormenting and torturing your sanity for it's own pleasure is not going to be fun. He was a broken man by the time he gave himself over to the Daemon in the end of Fulgrim, so he certainly won't be any better after all he's gone through since then...

Grindgodgrind
20-11-2007, 11:49
That's not what i was saying, ultimately Lorgar is the true reason for the Heresy.

That's not strictly true, dude.

Kor Phaeron first told Lorgar of the gods of the warp...it's all in Index Astartes.

Brother Siccarius
20-11-2007, 18:34
Actually, the Golden Throne had already existed well before then as the Emperor was already on it by the time of Istvaan. heck, every time I hear about the Siege of Terra it's always talking about the commanders and Primarchs holding council in the Emperor's Throneroom.

In the Horus Heresy art books it's told of why the Emperor left the great crusade. While experimenting with the Webway (of which there was a portal to directly in his throne room), presumably to find a way to allow humanity to bypass the warp, a problem happened. Magnus came a calling to warn about Horus, which broke the protective psykic seals on the Emperor's Palace* sending a cascading horde of demons down at him from the gate. While the Emperor's protective guard, the Custodes, held on against the demons he put himself on the Golden Throne to hold the webway gate shut. Hence, why he didn't go to quell the rebellion immediately, hence why he didn't immediately go to the other legions with the information, and hence why he didn't take any part in the siege of Terra, except for a small moment fighting Horus. Of course, during that time it fell to someone else to sit on the throne, who died from it.

*This has always led me to believe that rather than being a punishment of sending the Wolves to bring Magnus to the Emperor, that he might have actually wanted Magnus's help in fixing the seals on the Palace and in his attempts to enter the webway.

BaronDG
20-11-2007, 22:10
Brother Siccarius, that is a good and illuminating reflection, but it still doesn't explain why Fulgrim would swear upon it. And especially not in what way he thought it would save him...

Burnthem
20-11-2007, 23:15
Roboute Guilliman and The lion were put in SA that is more than 500.


That is incorrect. One of the BL books has a Dark Angel in suspended animation from before the heresy. So somewhere around 10000 years.

Dont forget that there is a huge difference between a marines self-induced state of hibernation, which is pretty much just an emergency-only thing, and the heavy duty suspended animation technology that is used to keep marines etc alive for centuries.

Wazzahamma
21-11-2007, 01:12
Zso Sahaal survived in self-induced hibernation from the heresy till 40,000.

Vesica
21-11-2007, 01:31
I think if they did manage to save Fulgrims soul and cleanse his body, he wouldnt be suicidel i think he would insane with anger and go on a Emperors children purging spree.

untill i read fulgrim, i hated him and everything he was because i believed he willing turned on the emperor without a thought, be reading how he was slowly changed a purverted made me feel sorry for him and increased my undying hatred for all thing Slaanesh.

Nazguire
21-11-2007, 04:09
I think that if they did manage to save Fulgrims soul and cleanse his body, he wouldn't be suicidal; I think he would be insane with anger and go on an Emperor's Children purging spree.


Fixed. I hate bad grammar/spelling.

He was suicidal before he was possessed. As soon as he killed his brother, Ferrus Mannus, and realised just what it was that he had helped create (destruction of his beloved father's dream) he wanted to kill himself. The daemon wouldn't let him, and offered him 'sweet oblivion that (he) craved'

Certainly be suicidal then.

Brother Siccarius
21-11-2007, 06:07
I still have to wonder about Ferrus Manus. Those arms of his are clearly Living Metal (and they never really shy away from calling it that in the book), so I wonder just what kind of effect that had on him as a whole. Having the taint of the necrons on you isn't something you just live with after all. Also it seems that it at least spread to his head as well just by reading about his appearance and his eyes his eyes (which were metallic like his arms). Could living metal be able to regenerate a missing head the same way it regenerates any other form it's put into or on?

Grindgodgrind
21-11-2007, 11:16
That's an interesting theory, Siccarius.

tau_caste
21-11-2007, 12:37
but it still doesn't explain why Fulgrim would swear upon it. And especially not in what way he thought it would save him...

It doesn't explain it because its not necessery. throughout the series people have used the word throne. i think it first popped upi in False gods and if memory serves good, then it was Torgaddon who first used the word (in the books). and since then its been in all the books (cant recall it being said in Horus Rising and i havnt read decent of the angels yet so i dont know)
but its pretty much just the word they used, for example "god save me what have i done" seeing as they dont believe in a god as such, why not curse on the throne.

Nazguire
21-11-2007, 21:42
I still have to wonder about Ferrus Manus. Those arms of his are clearly Living Metal (and they never really shy away from calling it that in the book), so I wonder just what kind of effect that had on him as a whole. Having the taint of the necrons on you isn't something you just live with after all. Also it seems that it at least spread to his head as well just by reading about his appearance and his eyes his eyes (which were metallic like his arms). Could living metal be able to regenerate a missing head the same way it regenerates any other form it's put into or on?

I hope not. Necron Primarch? Fun.

Though the idea of it spreading like a disease is quite interesting. I don't see it spreading and turning his whole body into a gauss flayer wielding Necron Warrior but I do it see it doing a sort of 'Wolverine' effect, just making him even harder to kill then usual.

(he did have half his skull caved in by Fulgrim and was still fighting seemingly not worried)

FlashGordon
23-11-2007, 23:32
Not necron primarch. Living metal primarch, Very interesting! and may i remind folks that fulgrim most likelywould kill himself because of what he have done and become(a mutant with snake body and 4 arms, turning his entire legion to treachery etc).

Apocalypse
24-11-2007, 03:07
Fulrim HAS to be completely insane after being trapped in his altered body(which looks like the laeran, who worshipped the demon in the sword that invaded F's mind) for what? 10 000 years? That guy is faaar gone... not to mention tainted with chaos.
I really like how the novels are mirroring the Horus Hersey: Collected Visions. I guess this is the new accepted "cannon" storyline.

heretics bane
24-11-2007, 14:15
That is incorrect. One of the BL books has a Dark Angel in suspended animation from before the heresy. So somewhere around 10000 years.

On the GW site it said some brother-marine was the longest marine to be found in suspended animation, some where in the 500yr mark, but many marine chapters have lost/shortened this greatly, like the imperial fists who cant do it all along with spit acid. What books is it? its sounds intresting


Fulrim HAS to be completely insane after being trapped in his altered body(which looks like the laeran, who worshipped the demon in the sword that invaded F's mind) for what? 10 000 years? That guy is faaar gone... not to mention tainted with chaos.
I really like how the novels are mirroring the Horus Hersey: Collected Visions. I guess this is the new accepted "cannon" storyline.

But dont forget all the primachs are super-rock hard guys, he could possiblie be slightly crazy/very ditsurbed/tainted but then again 10k years stuck in your own head would kinda be a little distressing

Commander Dante
24-11-2007, 14:39
But dont forget all the primachs are super-rock hard guys, he could possiblie be slightly crazy/very ditsurbed/tainted but then again 10k years stuck in your own head would kinda be a little distressing

Fulgrim was beginging to show signs of craziness before he was possesed. He was running around in a loincloth talking to a painting made out of human excriment and thought it was the most beautiful thing he ever saw.

The_Patriot
24-11-2007, 21:48
I'm disappointed in the book as it made Fulgrim and the Emperor's Children look like a bunch of emo nancy boys. :cries: