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Puffin Magician
14-04-2005, 14:42
Flipping through Imperial Armour vol II, I read the bit of fluff for the Immolator saying that its STC was discovered by some Ordo army. Not wanting to just hand over the designs to the Adeptus Mechanicus [where it belongs], the Ministorum kept it for themselves, later bargaining with the AM into producing it exclusively for the Ordo Hereticus.

Now, since that's in IA2 it could be considered canon, but something inside me says [despite the Ministorum's devious bastard tendancies] they wouldn't get away with that.

Exactly how much power do the Adeptus Mechanicus have? Could there be a way for this to be fought over, with a win for the Ad Mech meaning Immolators and Exorcists being integrated into Astartes and Imperial Guard armies [fluffwise, of course]? Or is the Ministorum, along with the Ordo Hereticus, simply too powerful to take on?

I'm thinking of writing a bit of fluff for my Adeptus Mechanicus characters, and given the not-too-friendly relationship that the AM has with Inquisitors, I was wondering if it was possible for a high-ranking Magos to basically flip off the Ordo and start constructing the vehicle for Imperial armies and end the Ordo's monopoly on vehicles that could greatly help all the armies of mankind. Of course there would be some kind of reprisal on behalf of the Inquisition...

Comment and discuss!

Khaine's Messenger
14-04-2005, 14:55
Now, since that's in IA2 it could be considered canon, but something inside me says [despite the Ministorum's devious bastard tendancies] they wouldn't get away with that.

I dunno. On the one hand you'd think the AdMech would possess the wherewithal to just take it, like they've done with so many other artefacts. Perhaps some political hullabaloo at higher levels, a few favors called, etc., eventually made them just give up....


Exactly how much power do the Adeptus Mechanicus have?

The AdMech is its own mini-empire to an extent, so it is logical to assume that they could probably get away with thumbing their olfactory receptors at the Inquisition and Ministorum and building Exorcists for whoever they please (most likely themselves, because they keep all the good stuff for themselves anyways).


Could there be a way for this to be fought over, with a win for the Ad Mech meaning Immolators and Exorcists being integrated into Astartes and Imperial Guard armies [fluffwise, of course]?

A "win" for the AdMech would just mean they could build it for whoever they want (whoever will pay them, etc.). Providing it for IG and Astartes is another kettle of fish, as the former require Munitorum/Administratum begging the AdMech for those vehicles (which are Rhino-chassis if I recall right, so game logic poo-poo's the idea), and the latter produce/tweak most of their armor in-house anyways.


Or is the Ministorum, along with the Ordo Hereticus, simply too powerful to take on?

This might depend on who has the plans for the vehicle, who controls the production facilities, and so on. Because if the OH/Ministorum were fool enough to just hand over the STC, then the AM could just laugh a hearty laugh and move on with life, making it for whoever they please. Ultimately the AM can laugh a hearty laugh, because ultimately the Ministorum and the Inquisition can't really pull down the military might that the AM can. Political leverage, though, probably lies on the Inquisition's side (if not also on the Ministorum's).

The exclusive construction contract might even have gotten concessions from the Ministorum, too, like, say, a few executive orders to allow the AM a little deeper penetration into the Ministorum's bureaucracy, or the reshuffling of some Imperial scripture or other, or perhaps some property transactions (or even a few Inquisitorial files on AdMech officials scrubbed, perhaps).


I was wondering if it was possible for a high-ranking Magos to basically flip off the Ordo and start constructing the vehicle for Imperial armies and end the Ordo's monopoly on vehicles that could greatly help all the armies of mankind.

You just have to ask yourself: How much of a rip does the Adeptus Mechanicus give about Mankind in general? I mean, really?

Strikerkc
14-04-2005, 15:24
Last I knew, the hell hound was essentialy what came of the imolator STC with a few tweaks and a new chassie.

Puffin Magician
14-04-2005, 16:39
By the sounds of the fluff in IAvII, the Ministorum basically gave the Adeptus Mechanicus an ultimatum: we'll tell you about this new gadget if you promise to only let us have it.

I know full well that the Adeptus Mechanicus is more of an ally than a member of the Imperium as they worship the machine god, and don't pay tithes. Their army is likely second in number only to the Imperial Guard and second in quality only to the Adeptus Astartes. It's the fact that the Ministorum still has substantial power, and the Inquisition likes to push around anyone who disagrees with them. What I meant was does the AM have the political power to change the agreement [made way back in M35] to better serve humanity by giving other branches of the military access to these vehicles, without drowning in red tape or angering the Inquisition to the point of political or military retaliation.

Khaine's Messenger
14-04-2005, 16:42
What I meant was does the AM have the political power to change the agreement [made way back in M35] to better serve humanity by giving other branches of the military access to these vehicles.

Then I reiterate my final statement: Do you think the Adeptus Mechanicus really cares about "serving" humanity? As an organization, I mean.

Barbarossa
14-04-2005, 17:00
Hmm, the AM surely isn't as numerous as you would think, Puffin. The question isn't if the AM wants to serve humanity - it needs to help the Imperium to protect itself.
And by the way, even if the AM were to produce the Immolator for other people - who would take it? The inquisiton could just tell the IG not to use it, and could (nicely) ask most Marine Chapters to do the same. And then there is all the questioning and torturing which is always involved in disobeying the Inquisition along with the searing pain and the burning. Nah, it's just not worth it.

Khaine's Messenger
14-04-2005, 17:33
The question isn't if the AM wants to serve humanity - it needs to help the Imperium to protect itself.

To clarify, it's not a question of if they have to serve humanity, it's a question of the extent to which they choose to serve humanity. They (the organization, that is) will do what is necessary to preserve and potentially expand their "power" base, whether that be handing out hot off the presses tech, giving everyone short shrift, or something in between.

Puffin Magician
14-04-2005, 18:11
Do you think the Adeptus Mechanicus really cares about "serving" humanity? As an organization, I mean.
Well I suppose as they're allies I would say they despise enemies of the Imperium just as much as Guardsmen, Inquisitors, and Space Marines. Though since they themselves write the rules of how machines should be maintained, blessed, etc, the Imperium which they arm complies, and "heretics" [races/people who don't use Machines as the AM think they should] are usually the enemies of the Imperium itself as well. I honestly think it's more of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" than them wanting to abide by Imperial law [since in many cases they are exempt].


he AM surely isn't as numerous as you would think, Puffin. The question isn't if the AM wants to serve humanity - it needs to help the Imperium to protect itself.
While I agree that the Adeptus Mechanicus needs the Imperium for protection, it's certainly got the numbers to go to war on its own. Remember they have Titan Legions, Knight Worlds, Skitarii Regiments, and billions upon billions of Servitors. And don't forget, every Forge World. If there were any faction large enough to tear humanity in two [again], it would be the Adeptus Mechanicus.


And by the way, even if the AM were to produce the Immolator for other people - who would take it? The inquisiton could just tell the IG not to use it, and could (nicely) ask most Marine Chapters to do the same.
The way I see it, it's close to the way Blood Angels went and used the Baal Predator STC, and the Space Wolves modified a Predator to create the Annihilator variant, without consulting the Adeptus Mechanicus. It ticked them off, but in the end both vehicles became a part of Astartes armies. I don't think Inquisition is within their boundaries to tell people what not to use [they're usually busy killing psychers and Xenos], my initial thoughts were that the Ministorum [in all its hugeness] would start quabbling to the High Lords and try and drown the AM in red tape before they could start doing what they want with technology that is rightfully theirs [the Imperium seems to agree that the AM fiddle with tech first, then deliver it to the armies].

When I ask about how much power the Adeptus Mechanicus possess, I'm talking about political power more than military power. I'm fairly certain the forces of Mars could get away with reproducing previously-Ordo-only vehicles and distributing to other Imperial forces by doing something nasty like refusing to produce vehicles for the Ordo on demand or simply stating that without the AM they wouldn't have any vehicles at all [you need our help so just shut up and give us what's ours]. ;)

worldshatterer
14-04-2005, 20:03
on the political power front the fabricator general of the admech is one of the high lords of terra .

from my memories of second fluff the whole point of an inquisitor is they were the only imperial officials who were not limited in the scope of their power, and one of their important roles was keeping the admech in check, since as puffin magician states they are the imperial faction with the most potential to destroy the imperium .

Khaine's Messenger
14-04-2005, 20:45
When I ask about how much power the Adeptus Mechanicus possess, I'm talking about political power more than military power.

In general...they could get away with it on the short term. A few "it must have fallen off the back of the barge" excuses here, a few red-tape entangled projects (put it in some magos' research allocation or something) there...and by the time anyone in power starts to notice (because you can be sure that some of the peons down at lower levels don't know what they're supposed to be assigned until it's given to them, much less what their allies are meant to be equipped with) it becomes too inefficient to take them all back, if it's planned correctly (but then the Inquisition has built up a reputation for thoroughness, I suppose). Ultimately any long-term project would require the complicity of the Astartes and the Administratum/Munitorum--the latter is a big problem, although if they liked I'm sure they could throw up a storm of red tape, too.

Ultimately the AdMech could spit in the face of the Munitorum and the Inquisition, but they (again, the organization) would be using up a lot of political capital by doing so. I would personally say, as I mentioned before, that the Ministorum and Inquisition had to give something up in order to get the AdMech's pledge (and again, that the AdMech didn't just try to take the STC suggests this). If Bleeding Chalice is anything to go by, then the Inquisition does actually engage in political gab and "quid pro quo" exchanges with the AdMech due to the AdMech's status, especially in warzone regions where the AdMech might hold the upper hand on any local manufacturers or information brokers (although make no mistake; an Inquisitor is still capable of upsetting that balance and making very big waves).

If the Ministorum and the Ordo Hereticus were able to bully an exclusive contract out of the AdMech without themselves handing over anything but the STC (as asked previously, where is this data now kept?), then they themselves probably used up a lot of political capital as well, or were in an exceptionally good bargaining position to begin with (if this was circa M35-M36, then it's likely the Ministorum's bargaining position would be very weak, however, with the Age of Apostasy fresh on their mind...unless this was pre-or-para-AoA, and the AdMech promised out of general frantic supplication, ceding ground left and right to just make them stop demanding stuff; or perhaps it was a pact with Thor and thus was made in incredibly good faith by the AdMech's leadership?).

But...political power...yeah, they could do it and generally get away with it. It's not like you have the same problem as you have with the Land Raider (commandment by the Emperor that they may only be used by SM), here. Could they do it without a quid pro quo situation? I would say most definately...but it's more likely they'd use threats to break the agreement as a (relatively minor, as I'm sure the AdMech has a whole laundry list of "Inquisition only" toys that they produce) political tool than actually follow through with it, I think. It's less likely they would do it for the general good of the Imperium and mankind....

Minister
14-04-2005, 20:48
The Ecclesiarchy, or more accuratley the Sisters of Battle, uncovered and conquered a pre-Age of Stryfe Forge World during their formative years. As, unlike the Marines or the Guard commanders, the Sororitas had no treaty with the Mechanicus, they were not compelled to turn it over. In return for exclusive use of any new technology uncovered (like the Immolator, although the Mechanicus used elements of its design in the Hellhound without telling anyone) and a supply of weapons and armour for the Orders, the Mechanicus were granted control over the forgeworld.

Puffin Magician
15-04-2005, 18:21
Thanks for the very constructive replies everyone, I'm pleased with the overall opinions that the AM could continue their harsh relationship with the Inquisition and still access vehicles that should be [IMO] available to other military branches.


As the Sororitas had no treaty with the Mechanicus, they were not compelled to turn it over.
I'm rather curious as to why this is. Surely it's the responsibility of every Imperial force to report to the Adeptus Mechanicus of any newly discovered technologies, despite several Ordos and the Ecclesiarchy's disliking of the AM in general.


...but it's more likely they'd use threats to break the agreement as a political tool than actually follow through with it, I think. It's less likely they would do it for the general good of the Imperium and mankind....
Good point, and although the AM might say it would benefit mankind [and even if it would], you're probably right... they'd just do it to tick the Inquisition off. Nonetheless, that's alright in my book [I dislike the shadowy conceited nature of the Inquisition just as much as the AM do]. ;)

Time to wrap up my Forge World fluff.

Minister
15-04-2005, 19:06
The Munitorium and the Marines all have treaties with the Mechanicus which essentially work on a system of "you build us stuff, we give you cool things we find". Having been created during the Reign of Blood, the Sororitas had no such treaty, and would at that time still be using equipment built by the worlds under Vandire's control without the support of the Mechanicus.

Puffin Magician
15-04-2005, 22:45
That's true; I'd known the history of the Sisters and the bloody regime but forgot to figure out why that would make them differ when it comes to technicalities like that.

But still, once they were taken back into the Imperial fold, so to speak, would the Imperium not have implaced guidlines similar to those enforced on other military organizations?

Minister
16-04-2005, 02:59
Not necicarily. The treaties reguarding the Marines date back to the Great Crusade, and the Guard and Navy protocols were drawn up by Super Smurf, however the Sororitas exist in something of a grey area. Not having the chapter-specific oaths they have to swear in order to get Techmarines, or the orders from the Administratum, they fall through the cracks. Asside from anything else, the Ecclesiarchy does not like the Mechanicus all that much, and will make a point of being seen to be as dificult as possible with them by the rest of the Imperium. Besides that, Thor seems to have had a degree in Law from what he pulled off with the Sisters being allowed to continue in the first place...

inquisitorautry
16-04-2005, 03:12
That's true; I'd known the history of the Sisters and the bloody regime but forgot to figure out why that would make them differ when it comes to technicalities like that.

But still, once they were taken back into the Imperial fold, so to speak, would the Imperium not have implaced guidlines similar to those enforced on other military organizations?

Probably because they weren't seen as a part of the Imperium's armed forces. SOB are probably looked at more like the defenders of the cathedrals, shrine worlds, etc. They probably weren't considered to be a military force in their own right, as such they wouldn't have the same restrictions imposed on them as the other branches of the Imperial armed forces.

Flame Boy
17-04-2005, 21:16
I would imagine the Adeptus Mechanicus would built those restricted vehicles and keep some for themselves... they don't have a tendency for honesty. I doubt they have and Land Raiders, and they wouldn't keep equipment for the Grey Knights, and I bet they still moan about the Predator Annihilator, but I would imagine the Adeptus Mechanicus keeps just about everything else for themselves. It's whether they openly flaunt these technologies that is the issue here.

Delicious Soy
19-04-2005, 08:47
I think that he Ad-Mech wouldn't dare hit the ecclesiarchy simply because that would destroy them. The Ad-Mech are only barely tolerated faith wise by the ecclesiarchy, who would be favoured over the Ad-Mech in a power struggle because

a) The vast majority of humanity directly worship the Emperor through them.
b) They can be controlled through other agencies (ie the Inquisition and Navy) far better then the Ad-Mech

To add a little assumption and interpretation, the Eccleisarch positions on the High Lords (Ecclesiarch, Canonness of the Sisters, and the Cardinal(s) of Terra) are far more open to the nobility than the Fabricator General, meaning that the Imperial aristocracy would get involved anf further isolate the Ad-mech.

Minister
19-04-2005, 08:55
But then the Mechanicus switches off the Warp Drives, and the Imperium breaks down...

Anyway, all-out war between a unified Cult Mechanicus and Imperial Cult would destroy the Imperium, and none of the High Lords would risk such a thing.

Delicious Soy
19-04-2005, 10:21
But then the Mechanicus switches off the Warp Drives, and the Imperium breaks down...I guess in that case it would be a matter on the Imperium side of 'persuading' the Tech Priest on Navy ships to play ball. Which is the main problem for the Mechanicus, a massive portion of their cult is spread thin and isolated across the Imperium. Which weakens their power base. The question would be, if the machine cult was outlawed, would all those sub-contractors producing arms (like on armageddon) gradually abandon it and start tinkering? If they did it would probably be a matter of a few years before they could fire them up (some pirates already know how to fire warp drives without the Ad-Mech). Then the Imperium would have the drop on the AD-Mech, because they would have the suppply of navigators, and the Ad-Mech would be reliant on what they started with.


Anyway, all-out war between a unified Cult Mechanicus and Imperial Cult would destroy the Imperium, and none of the High Lords would risk such a thing.No but that doesn't sop each of them eyeing the other off, nor would it prevent them trying to outmanuvre the other politcally to gain a more prominent influence, especially against the Fabricator General, who has far more history than any of the other representatives, the position at one stage was only equalled by the Primarchs and the Emperor himself.

Minister
19-04-2005, 11:37
I would also point out that the Navigis Nobilitae is not the most solidly tied to the Imperium, and that at least some of the houses would side with the Mechanicus (to spite the other houses if nothing else).

Honestly, in the event of full-scale war I woulth think that the Mechanicus would simply order the defence platforms around Terra and Mars to remove the Imperial command and assume custody of Holy Terra and the person of the Emperor. The Imperial Cult would not then stand for long. However, again, the Imperium ends up being splintered and set upon by the Xenos.

Laspistol
19-04-2005, 15:39
So the question becomes build immolators for organisation X or risk brining the Imperium down ?

Wow, I don't think there is a real choice there at all. After all, who would buy Mechanicus equipment after humanity was removed ?

Well, maybe Chaos ...

Flame Boy
21-04-2005, 00:01
I thought the Adeptus Mechanicus had their own navigator houses? I'm sure I read that somewhere...

Minister
21-04-2005, 01:13
Nope. The Navigis Nobilitae has a total monopoly on the Navigators, and hire them out to others.

Khaine's Messenger
21-04-2005, 03:54
Although it should be clarified that certain Navigator Houses have "charters" or whatnot with the AdMech that extend back to the conquest of the Solar System. Supposedly signed over by the Emperor himself. Whether or not these Navigator Houses are exclusively contracted to the AdMech is probably another story altogether. But you are quite right that the AdMech doesn't have its own in-house Navigators.

Rich
21-04-2005, 10:53
They may well have houses that are so closely bound to them as to make the difference indistinguishable however.

The AdMech and the Imperium are mutually supportive; they need each other. In the same way the Ministorum needs the Imperium and vica versa. The reason why the AdMech are so jealous about technology is that hey know full well that the only way to remain needed is to ensure a monopoly on the design of weaponry and vehicles, hence why they were so keen to get their mitts on the immolator STC (which was half complete, and used later to build the hellhound, an improved design). War between the AdMech and other Imperial organisations isn't going to happen, except on a very regional scale, mostly because it makes no sence. The AdMech is too busy searching after STCs and so forth in any case to really care much about the rest of the Imperium - they just maintain contracts to sustain themselves whilst they contnue their real quests.

Sai-Lauren
21-04-2005, 11:18
Asside from anything else, the Ecclesiarchy does not like the Mechanicus all that much, and will make a point of being seen to be as dificult as possible with them by the rest of the Imperium. Besides that, Thor seems to have had a degree in Law from what he pulled off with the Sisters being allowed to continue in the first place...
Yes, the ecclesiarchy worships the emperor as the one true diety, whilst the AM worship the machine god, which they say is another facet of the emperor - without wishing to get too deep into religion - similar to the way the church of england and the catholic church are related. They're none to pleased with the astartes belief system's either, but they're basically protected by the emperor.

Plus the AM is only technically part of the imperium, the emperor never fully brought them in when he went to Mars, presumably because they were too independant to recruit and strong to force.


Anyway, all-out war between a unified Cult Mechanicus and Imperial Cult would destroy the Imperium, and none of the High Lords would risk such a thing.
Yep, one molotov cocktail, with a match - to go. ;)

Minister
06-05-2005, 03:36
To be more honest, it's more like the relationship between the Muslim and Christian faiths. the being at the top is the same, albeit with a different name, but most of the other stuff is different.

Khaine's Messenger
06-05-2005, 21:59
And the only (real) problem is that there are some factions of the AdMech that disagree with the popular sentiment that the Machine God is a facet of the Emperor. The AdMech purged them a long time ago (in the opening days of the Great Crusade, and then later during the Horus Heresy), but that sort of doctrine crops up again once in a while, and I imagine a cunning agent of the Ministorum, if he's aware of it, probably wouldn't let the Adeptus Mechanicus forget such "transgressions."