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Fate
17-11-2007, 03:03
Ok i think it's about time for me to put one of my rosters here, i have a few variations but all have the same basis.

Arch Lector (general) - 326 pts
Heavy armour
Van horstmann's speculum
Sword of power
Shield of the gorgon

Battle Wizard lv2 - 150 pts
Rod of power
Ring of volans

Battle Wizard lv2 - 130 pts
Doomfire ring

Battle Wizard lv2 - 150 pts
Dispel scroll
Dispel scroll

10 Handgunners - 80 pts
5 Archer detachment - 40 pts
5 Archer detachment - 40 pts

10 Handgunners - 80 pts
5 Archer detachment - 40 pts
5 Archer detachment - 40 pts

10 Huntsman - 100 pts

Great Cannon - 100 pts

Great Cannon - 100 pts

Great Cannon - 100 pts

Great Cannon - 100 pts

Steam Tank - 300 pts

Hellblaster - 110 pts

Total 1986 pts

The way of working is simple enough. 2 bound spells on the priest,1 on the chariot, another on the mage and a one off bound spell plus at least 3 damaging spells on the wizards so it's a 7 spell per turn cast and a turn with 8 (usually first as to make the scrolls come out fast).

The general challenges other characters, so to trade stats and only leaves them with 1 attack.

The steam tank provides a big hit in combat plus it's a moving cannon.

A lot of artillery to destroy either enemy artillery or to kill big things.

Detachements for mage protection.

Some handgunners might be of use against either fast or heavy cavalary.

Scouts to either draw frenzied units to the woods or to simply slow down the enemy (and with luck win a table quarter).

Hellblaster for a finishing touch.

I got powerfull shoothing, some decent magic power and some combat power as well.

From here i can forget magic and trade a wizard for a captain which will lead a cavalary of inner circle knights with full command and warbanner by trading a cannon and forgeting the detachements.

So, what do you think?

RavenBloodwind
17-11-2007, 03:23
I think it's called a gunline. Also the pope has 2 attacks you're giving your opponent, although I guess you remove one with the gorgon shield...

The primary variation from the typical gunline is the substitution of the pope for a wizard lord although perhaps this has become 7th edition vogue.

Your very tiny army may get away with points denial as many armies will struggle to deal with the pope and the steamtank while not getting blown to bits by your magic and cannons.

Scout/skirmish heavy armies should give you some fits. Clearly a hoarde will struggle. This list would be a nightmare to an all goblin army (less so to a skaven hoarde).

It's fundamentally just a list that isn't much fun to play with or against for most people. My usual all-elf wood elves would have a bit of trouble if you got first turn but after that it would just be about leaving the stank alone.

Fate
17-11-2007, 03:40
Actually that depends on what you call fun, for me and most people i play with, fun is to bring our armies to the brink of perfection and play as competitivelly as possible.

I never played against a horde army, hell that wouldn't even be a game. I have some trouble with some armies, not wood elves though. The only real downside of the army is the lack of a couple flying units but magic, no matter what will have to deal with it.

What really gives me trouble are 3 armies. Orcs which field 8 bolt throwers, dwarves that do pretty much the same and chaos with has a lord on a dragon with a chaos runeshield and say. Hey, no weapon dude! while the dragon picks the character or the chariot off.

Apart from this i don't expect much trouble (still haven't seen the new HE though).

RavenBloodwind
17-11-2007, 04:00
Not to debate the 'merits' of your playstyle or list, but another though struck me.

A skaven greyseer on a screaming bell could really play havoc for you. The most common result for the bell (on 3d6) is 'all T7 models take d3 wounds'.

A skaven clan eshin list would be hysterical against this list, especially with the 'cover of night' rule.

Similarly ambushing beastherds should give you a nightmare as would strigoi summoned ghouls or tomb kings scorpions or tomb swarms. Or casket of souls anyone?

A table without terrain would the only thing that would really scare me in facing the list. And THAT "wouldn't even be a game".

scarletsquig
17-11-2007, 04:21
Pretty much a luck based list. Either you kill everything before it reaches you, or a single combat unit hits you and ends up destroying the entire army.

Bretonnians, wood elves, beastmen, any army with a tunnelling/ scouting unit, any army with multiple small units of cavalry, etc. is going to give this army a hard time.

If you insist on doing gunline, the orb of thunder is essential. And you're going to need some march blockers too, and stuff to deal with fast cavalry. Grapeshot won't cover everything. couple of units of knights instead of handgunners will go a long way.

Infantry hordes will also be able to win through sheer attrition eventually, consider a mortar, no army needs 5 cannons.

And no-one will be fooled by the speculum more than once. ;)

Fate
17-11-2007, 11:46
I don't fear screaming bells, in fact, as soon as i see it i fire all the cannons there. It must be destroyed no matter what.

Clan eshin never played against it but i think they are not valid in 7th edition (might be wrong though).

ambushing bestheards won't bother, since it means there are not many big things to worry about.

Tomb kings would more of a bother though.

Also the only luck run on this list is for the steam tank not roll a 6 if i need 5 SP.

Mortars don't do anything, tried a few times, then laid them aside. STR 3??????? No thanks. And yes, all armies need cannons, the more the merrier.

Also the VHS on the lord is not to fool anyone. is kinda, come close and i'll kill you.

brambleten
17-11-2007, 12:26
what can you do with the extra 14pts?
i would guess at adding annother gunner or 2 (dont know how cheap they are)

heinrichvoncarstein
17-11-2007, 18:12
Your life would end in turn 2 if you were facing a Vampire Counts army especially a fast oving army like a blood dragon lord on dragon and then only knights, fell bats and dire wolves

heinrichvoncarstein
17-11-2007, 18:14
Also i would invest in a couple of greatswords, great for holding the line and they provide the much needed cc support try getting a general with runefang, barded horse, full plate and shield in there and watch the enemy running away.

heinrichvoncarstein
17-11-2007, 18:15
Knights won't work in a gunine army as their the only ones that move away from the deployment zone you could count on them getting slaughtered in turn 1 or 2

DarkTerror
17-11-2007, 18:20
Thanks for the list.

You're the opposite of every fun list or person I've ever played against. Go try something with skill in it. Otherwise just roll a die, 3+ you win. Awesome.


Scrub.

the blind knight
17-11-2007, 18:47
Fate you are everything that is wrong in warhammer.period.

Akuma
17-11-2007, 22:10
He reminds me of a guy called gunline---tassstic or something like that ...

Fate
18-11-2007, 09:28
I never had any problems against vampire counts, all i need is to kill the lord and be over with, besides the lord and the knights, there isn't anthing that can be of potential harm for the steam tank.

Also greatswordsman are the worst empire unit. Very expensive and won't kill anything... AS4? when anything hithing that will most likelly be STR4 or 5? why do they need those FPA anyway? Give them STR 4 and a shield and then they might be worth the points.

Also, knights and the steam tank are not used to charge mindless the enemy, they stay back usually, they are what protects my units. what better protection then a unit with AS1 and STR 6 on charge and with a character inside).

BTW you guys that say that it isn't fun playing against this army, i would like to know what you call fun playing, an army full of infantry that you run down and wont even strike back... Yeah, that lots of fun.

Also bear in mind that this is empire, the ONLY good thing they have is great cannon and taking anything less than a couple is suicide, if you count with missfires and times you fail the guess or just roll a too low or too high result on the dice then you'll need at least 3 and even then it might not be enough.

Empire is not too bright on the fighting side you know? ws3, s3, t3, i3, 1a and ld7. It's asking to die really. So if they are so weak how do they make up for that? Warmachines and shooting, course without some backup like cavalary or a steam tank, they're dead unless they have dumb luck.

Really it would be fun to see you playing with a "fun" roster of empire, i'll bring chaos, then after a couple of games you might start to understand how empire is meant to be played.

Fate
18-11-2007, 11:36
BTW, not really much to do with 14 points, could add an Handgunner for 8 points, but really 1 model won't make a difference and i'd rater not have it than give my opponent 8 additional points if he ever gets to the unit.

heinrichvoncarstein
18-11-2007, 12:32
there are two things you would have problems with. number 1: a blood dragon on dragon with wristbands of black gold-first you need to hit, then you need a 5 or 6 to get the vamp and then you have to wound him with T5 you'll only get about 5 shots at him from a unit of 20 handgunners all firing. and then the vamp has to fail his 1+ armour save and 3+ ward save and he has 4 wounds and he can heal himself next turn. Also you would have problems against a von carstein vamp inside a unit of 20 knights with a 5+ ward save and the vamp has a 5+ armour save 4+ invulnerable save and 4+ regeneration save

Fate
18-11-2007, 13:07
Not really a problem. First i don't think the vampire as the worst of things but the dragon, and i can kill it easly enough with the cannons (assuming i can get 2 hits). The character is of no consequence. I have the pope and the steam tank, they both run it down smothly enough in the first option.

As for the second option it would be even more simple as i wouldn't even need the cannons, the pope is unbreakable so he'd challenge the vampire and even if they couldn't do jackshit to each other, eventually the steam tank would charge the cavalary in the side making huge casualties and killing a making you take a lot of extra wounds. And i'm not even counting the spells which the pope employs in combat.

Bretonia though would be hard though, specially if they pack a couple of pegasus units.

RavenBloodwind
18-11-2007, 15:09
Just a few things:

In defense of Fate, his demeanor is certainly less unpleasant than dear old 'tastic.

It seems that the interpretation of units effectiveness and value is based solely on statlines. Many units in the empire army have fairly average stats (they're 'only' human afterall) but they make up for their normalcy through static CR, detachments and other traits.

Greatswords primary trait of value is that they are stubborn with Ld 8. The AS4 is not enough to keep them in a long fight, but if they have a detachment negating the enemy static CR they're likely to win and if they don't, having a BSB nearby means they're less likely to run than other troops (rerolling a stubborn 8 isn't too shabby, although my treeman runs all the time on a rerolled stubborn 8...).

A specific thought regarding mortars though: S3 against typical ranked troops (what you should be targetting with a mortar) will wound 50% of the time. Worst case against dwarfs 33%. And a well placed shot can hit an entire 25 man unit of 20mm base troops. It's certainly less likely to score a wound on any single model than a cannon, but it's hitting a heck of a lot more troops per shot as well. Each (cannon and mortar) has its utility but to think a mortar has no value because of its 'low' (actually average) strength is missing the point.

Rather than go off into other army builds and tactics which may plague this list I'd like to ask two questions of Fate.

What kinds of lists do your regular gaming partners use?

How do they fare against this Empire list?

Akuma
19-11-2007, 08:44
Ok Few things

1. If you win with this set up this can mean 2 things. Either your friends are far worse players then you OR you play diffrent game.

- You have about 20 Hand gunners , 30 Archers and nothing more in the low S shooting department - given that you cant shoot throught your own troops this gives you quite a wide battle line.

- You have 4 cannons - each cannon rolls 2 artilery dices per shoot ( one for distance one for bounce ) - this means 8 rolls a turn - 1 certain missfire and 33.3% chance for another. + Cannons are realy random with hitting big things like dragons , dragon ogres - to much on the first artilery dice and it all goes to hell.

- You have Archlector and 3 mages - tell me what will you use from his prayers ? - 4LVL mage would be far more superior as any enemy character will have easy time in avoidng clumsy war altar.

- You have S. Tank and Hell - good this is the only thing good in this army ...


Now for my points

- You'r Battle line - much much to wide not every unit will have range to use general LD - with small units with low LD it means that thay will fail theyirs panic test and flee quite often.

- You dont have ANYTHING that can deal with threats like miners , gorgers , skaven tunnelers , TombKings tunnelers AND so on - one or more such units and you are massacreated ...

- If opponents starts you will have just one turn of shooting and that is never enought for empire to kill ALL incomeing troops ...

- Magic is great thing - but all good generals use it as a beck up - something that can help empire not win the game for us. You fail to understand why I put line troops like Spearman , Pistoliers , Flagalents in my army - well they are there exactly for such occasions. Sure you are right any enemy will destroy empire troops - but only if hes untuched by our bleesed lead - so sigmar gave us cannons mortars and hellblasters to SOFTEN up enemy before we can recive his charge and send him home ...

to sum things up - I can build a valid roster for each and every army that would wipe floor with this empire - if your friends can't well that's their problem ... I can sense you are quite competative player but your gaming group doesnt give you a opportunity to evolve and learn what Wfb is all about - not dice rolling but tactics :)

cheers and lots of luck with games !

SevenSins
19-11-2007, 13:29
I must say this is an extremely hit-or-miss army (pun intended), luck will pay a much stronger part than tactics, and the amount of terrain will dictate much. A few missfires and misscasts can cause yoy the game...
Considering empires cheap and useful troops I'd say switch a few cannons for some large blocks. Static CR is your friend, even if you're just going to sit back and shoot.

DarkTerror/The blind knight: might as well not comment, let the man play the way he wants

Like RavenBloodwind I'd like to know what your regular opponents are fielding

gerrymander61
19-11-2007, 17:03
I play a horde army and while I think this would be a hard game for me, I do think I could beat it because yes, you have a pile of guns, but you have nothing at all protecting them, meaning that my Gutter Runners would win the game for me. Personally, this army would be fun for me to play against once, but if your friends enjoy it, and you do, then by all means do it. I am not going to tell you how to have fun. With such a one dimensional list, your army will absolutely dominate some lists, but be submissive to other armies. A typical skink heavy PowerSlann Lizardmen list would clean yours up whereas Khornate mortals would have a tough time beating yours. Your games would consist of either extreme wins, or extreme losses.

But enough of the style and onto the list itself: I don't see the point in the arch lector. You would be much better off with a lv4 wizard lord or whatever they're called. I also think it would be wise investing in a mortar or two. That you dismiss them based on their strength is the only thing I think you are downright silly about. You're missing their greatest virtue, and only seeing the weaknesses.

Fate
20-11-2007, 00:58
Well, about the cannons randomness i'd like to state 2 things, first, they are the only real powerhit empire has, so the more the better since, like it was said, they are random, having more improves the odds of killing the target.
Then i'd link to say that chances are not 33% or something, it's a 1/6, there is only a missfire side, each time you roll it you don't just improve the chances of missfire, but also the other roll, in 2 rolls you just have 2/12 chances, that's how it works.

For my list, an archlector is a character that can have a ward save of 4 without paying magic points for it. I see all your lists and rarelly see ward saves, there isn't anyone here in portugal that will not bring the best ward they can, it saves lives in more than one occasion. also he makes 2 prayers, even if plain magic is better, this are 2 certain spells that enter without rooling, plus the chariot give another spell and still my character is combat designed.

the handgunners are there to shoot rapid moving cavalary, no more and the archers are protection for the mages, otherwise they could be targeted.

my battle line is wide yeah, but having a concentrated battle line only proves inefective... Or so it has always proven so.

I can deal with miners and stuff, i have a steam tank and magic for them. (maybe a hellblaster too)

Although magic can be dispeled always keep this in mind, it's much more powerfull than normal shooting so thinking of it as a back IMO is a mistake. Cannons are not for softening up anything, they cost 100 pts and can blow up just like that, they are for the killing of characters, large targets and possibly some cavalary.
Also mortars are weak, the STR3 is nowhere near enough, cause here you don't even see anyone fielding infantry, it's proven and more than proven that they won't las or do anything.

Also you want to know what people play here?
I'll give you an insight of a chaos army, tsentch.

Lord on dragon with mark of tsentch and sword of might, caos runeshield and gaze of gods.

2 wargors, tsentch mark, great waepon and 3 dispel scrolls and one of them has an extra spell.

5 chosen caos knights with banner of wrath of tsentch.

2 units of maurader horseman without anything just to fill the core.

2 beast heards to go through woods cleaning and protecting the mages.

10 furies

5 screamers



i think there are still a few points missing but it's what i pull from head, and this is too deadly to mess with.
very fast attack, all units are very strong and when not in combat killing everthing, there is magic flying overhead.

Like i said, we all play very competitively, otherwise we won't enjoy the game, you think the game has no tactics but it has, you have to make a very precise choice of targets, know when to charge and when not, what to expect from a charge, we to run and when to stand your ground.

Also i used to have a unit of pistoliers before for enemy harassment and for lateral charges with a captain on it... More than once saved my life but now with the fusiade rule gone and the knights using a special slot... it's really not worth fielding it.

Also numbers are no virtue unless they can actually kill something or at very least, not die.

Fate
22-11-2007, 01:47
Strange, you ask me what i usually play against and then won't bother commenting anymore.
Suddenly i know wheter you think i might be right after all or if you think your army would still beat this kind of foe.

gerrymander61
23-11-2007, 08:45
First of all, your numbers are wrong. In order to get a shot off properly, you need to NOT misfire on both dice. There are 5 out of 6 options to not misfire, so on each die, you have a 5/6 chance to not misfire. Multiply them by each other, because it's an AND operation, and you get (5/6)*(5/6) = 0.694444..... In other words, you have a 69.4% chance of a single cannon not misfiring on one shot. Hell, and they say Skaven weaponry is dangerous. The odds that there will be NO misfires at all per turn is the percentage per cannon to the power of four because again, it's one big AND operation. (0.6944444)*(0.6944444)*(0.6944444)*(0.6944444), or (0.6944444)^4 = 0.232568..... a 23% chance that everything will go right, for your cannons alone, per turn.


Strange, you ask me what i usually play against and then won't bother commenting anymore.
Suddenly i know wheter you think i might be right after all or if you think your army would still beat this kind of foe.

No, the reason why we're not responding is that you ask us for advice, then you promptly take it personally when we happily give you said advice. You come to us with a list that is entirely onedimensional and that many people would hate to play. We tell you this, and offer suggestions to make it less one dimensional but still retain the shooting and magic focus of the list. Again, you take it personally. The only thing you say to defend yourself is that "that's how they do things in Portugal." A valid-ish point, but it raises the question, why not ask advice from your friends in Portugal who clearly have an almost zen-like understanding of the game of Warhammer.

If you want advice from us, if you want comments, you can have it, but you need to change your attitude and be open to ideas that, while they might not be your own, may still be valid ideas none the less.

Fate
24-11-2007, 02:47
Well let me ask you the following then. Imagine that you're the general of your army and that for a change you have a country do defend from enemies. Then the enemies show up at your door, non too friendly either in their intentions and you, as the general of your army and ruler of your country, what would you do?
Would you bring as much infantry for a field where you knew they'd most likelly be slaughtered or would you take your finest troops and the things that would blow away your enemies, leaving your country untouched and as much soldiers as possible still alive after the battle?

This is how i think when i play a game, i'm a strategist, i must bring and do whatever possible to destroy the enemy while minimising my casualties and if i think like that, will there actually be room im my roster for infantry?

Also i don't take things personally like you said unless of course someone comes saying that i'm this or that, then of course it's another buisness. The reason i put this army here was not to really ask an advice on the army, i already know how it works, the weak and strong points, i made the post cause of 2 things. First is that i see so many rosters here and not even one that would be somewhat similar and second, to have a debate on what you think that is wrong with the roster and why, i even said the roster had a few shortcoming but so has every roster, there is no army that can face everything.

Also there is a reason on why i say that here in Portugal is how we play, that's because i can't see any of the empire rosters people post here ever wining a game against the tipe of rosters we play, sure you make rosters that may be fun to play, i have no doubts about that, however i can't see them winning any game cause i can't even concive what the opponent will bring except what i usually see here. If you look at the roster i put above of a caos army, it's pretty much cheese, not much shortcoming for that too and few armis can defeat that from what i've seen. I have defeated it a few times with empire, but it's one of the examples where i hardly win by massacre... Usually i get a minor victory, perhaps a major if things go good. Very rarelly a massacre though and if i count on the average winning rate against that it should be about 45%.

bassmasterliam
25-01-2008, 17:02
yes but you must remember in warhammer quantity does best quality most of the time thats why in my empire army i now have a fat unit of 40 swordsment who can best basically anything because while there not the best there are loads of 'em and if you stick a warrior preist in it and make them unbreakable then well lets just say i've bested alot of units this way.

Little Aaad
25-01-2008, 17:37
You are not using this Forum right. We are ment to discuss this list not give advice.

Gunlines are not fluffy though and I do understand this.

fubukii
25-01-2008, 17:53
the only real threats of this list are the altar, and the steam tank, if you play against a army capable of outshooting you, gettin a moderate amount of magic off, Tunneling etc you army will be in trouble I actually think the list would be better with 2 steam tanks, which would be twice the hitting power.

As u said i see you having alot of trouble vs dwarves because they shoot better then empire, Skaven because they dont care how any high str shots or moderate magic missles you have, they have excellent shooting which is great at killing steam tanks, and altars alike, tunnel teams which are amazing at killing warmachine crews etc, And orcs because thye have alot of guys, soemtimes speed, Moderate magic, and bolt throwers

One thing i have learned even with 7 dd and 3 scrolls, people are gonna get magic off)be it by you running out of scrolls and dispel rolls not cutting it, or just out right killing your mages) on you you just have to accept it. and one good missle spell to a unit with your mage in it, will cause some trouble.

Mawchild
26-01-2008, 15:05
Ok but what happens if you come up against a VC army full of etheral troops. A Lizzie army with 2nd Gen Slann with say lore of life ( Howler Wind, Rain Lord and Master of Stone would all cause you trouble) or Lord Kroak and some skink priests plus loads of underpriced skink skirmish screens would prove problematic in the extreme.

You could always ditch one of the rare choices for a large unit of 5 Leadbelchers swap a Wiz for a mounted warrior priest and all of a sudden you've got a unit that can dish it out at distance or close combat. Actually if you do that let me know how they get on because I was toying with the idea myself, I just can't find room for the pointswise at the moment.

fubukii
26-01-2008, 15:34
also commenting on your friends list, it could be alot better,

Lord on dragon with mark of tsentch and sword of might, caos runeshield and gaze of gods. (id probably switch this up to golden eye of tzeetch for the 3+ ward save for the dragon and the rider, give the rider a flail for str7, then id also go with the staff of change probably if you want to go for purely competitive build)

2 wargors, tsentch mark, great waepon and 3 dispel scrolls and one of them has an extra spell. (these are good the extra spell is probably the wild call :))

5 chosen caos knights with banner of wrath of tsentch. (good pricey unit 5 man unit wit habnner can be a huge liability)

2 units of maurader horseman without anything just to fill the core. ( probably would find room for chariots as they are better core fillers and contribute to the list nicely)

2 beast heards to go through woods cleaning and protecting the mages. ( decent idea, but beast heards are hardly overpowered, being only a level 2 mage they will have trouble casting some of the spells in the list)

10 furies ( a little large but ok)

5 screamers ( same as above)

TO be 100% honest, his list really isnt "that" competitive it could be alot worse then how he built it.

Little Aaad
26-01-2008, 17:59
also commenting on your friends list, it could be alot better,

Lord on dragon with mark of tsentch and sword of might, caos runeshield and gaze of gods. (id probably switch this up to golden eye of tzeetch for the 3+ ward save for the dragon and the rider, give the rider a flail for str7, then id also go with the staff of change probably if you want to go for purely competitive build)

2 wargors, tsentch mark, great waepon and 3 dispel scrolls and one of them has an extra spell. (these are good the extra spell is probably the wild call :))

5 chosen caos knights with banner of wrath of tsentch. (good pricey unit 5 man unit wit habnner can be a huge liability)

2 units of maurader horseman without anything just to fill the core. ( probably would find room for chariots as they are better core fillers and contribute to the list nicely)

2 beast heards to go through woods cleaning and protecting the mages. ( decent idea, but beast heards are hardly overpowered, being only a level 2 mage they will have trouble casting some of the spells in the list)

10 furies ( a little large but ok)

5 screamers ( same as above)

TO be 100% honest, his list really isnt "that" competitive it could be alot worse then how he built it.

It's actually the worst chaos list around...

worgore
26-01-2008, 18:15
Trying to step away from ethics;)

Your list is strong 'Fate'. The only other army i see that has not been mentioned that you may fear is your own 'Empire'.

Have you tried to squeeze in two tanks at any stage? Or used gelt instead of the priest on chariot?

These were used to great effect in the three gt heats this season.