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Takaratie
14-04-2005, 14:00
Hi all....

I dit an little discovery about the Black templars.
Black templars use the Iron cross sign, and you know what that means? its an Nazi sign from ww2.
I dint knew this until 10 min ago.

I dont know what you guys think about this ... but iam most sertanly gone choose another chapter.

I would like to hear what you think about this.

Plz dont kick or banne me for this threat .. Im not here to juge for those ho keep on playing BT( I still like the fluff).
Is this al just an misunderstanding, or is it true that you can put nazi signs on your models.

Plz let me know what you all think.

Takaratie

Barbarossa
14-04-2005, 14:23
The Iron Cross is not a Nazi-specific sign. It was used well before Hitler's reign and it is still used now.
Nothing untowards happening here, citizen. Move on! ;-)

Bernard
14-04-2005, 14:25
I think you have misunderstood what you have discovered. The black cross is a symbol of the knights templar from the middle ages, it was used by the german armed forces in the 1stand 2nd world wars it is also used by the current german armed forces.

The nazi symbol was a black swastika which is not used by any of games workshops products.

Ultimately the swastika was stolen from other older religions, i think the hindu religion used or uses a reversed version of it.

just my 2 cents

Inquisitor Engel
14-04-2005, 14:25
The Iron Cross was used by the Nazi's yes. It was also used by the Knights Templars, Teutonic Knights, and was the symbol, along with the inverted star, of a couple of Crusades.

Bernard
14-04-2005, 14:26
Beaten to the punch, but at least we both agree on the main point

Takaratie
14-04-2005, 14:38
oke thanks all for the info....

anyway... ill probable change the chapter, I live in holland, even near a place where they had an concentration camp, so my family have tolled me alot of not so nice stories...( no they where not in the camps, but they heard alot of stories from the survivors after the war )

I dont wanna hear my granny say: mmmh... nazi marines :( ...
This threat is not here to insult german people in anyway let that be clear ;)

Thanks

Takaratie

khorgor
14-04-2005, 14:43
I dont know what you guys think about this ... but iam most sertanly gone choose another chapter.
Takaratie


#slaps#

Foolish. Would you refuse to play a army if it had the sun of japan on it? Or maybe the signal of the USSR?

BTW...I'm pretty sure the signal in question was made into a a medal called the Iron Cross. Given to pilots - I think - don't quote me.

Essia
14-04-2005, 14:45
Ultimately the swastika was stolen from other older religions, i think the hindu religion used or uses a reversed version of it.


yep, the hindu/buddist sign was reversed to form the Nazi swastika.

khorgor
14-04-2005, 14:45
oke thanks all for the info....

anyway... ill probable change the chapter, I live in holland, even near a place where they had an concentration camp, so my family have tolled me alot of not so nice stories...( no they where not in the camps, but they heard alot of stories from the survivors after the war )

I dont wanna hear my granny say: mmmh... nazi marines :( ...
This threat is not here to insult german people in anyway let that be clear ;)

Thanks

Takaratie
That explains alot - ignore flame in last post - but think about it any way.
heh - u posted this just after mine.....

khorgor
14-04-2005, 14:46
hmmm...Isn't the chinese peace symbol the reverse of the swastika?

Essia
14-04-2005, 14:50
nope, the chinese symbol existed much more earlier than the swastika.

khorgor
14-04-2005, 14:51
yeh -I know - asking if it was the reverse or a totally different sign

Barbarossa
14-04-2005, 15:05
Being a german myself, I heard a nice little story some weeks ago. Some german politicians thought about proposing to the EU that the swastica should be forbidden europe-wide. Several Hindu religious groups protested since it is their tradition to paint swasticas on the foreheads of newborn children for good fortune.

the spook
14-04-2005, 15:08
First of all, the iron cross is also known as the maltese cross, and the swastika is indeed the reversal of a good luck symbol found in many cultures including Europe, india & japan. Hitler thought that it would look backwards when you looked at it from the other side of aryan paradise or whatever the heck drugs that guy was on...

By the way Takaratie, I think its totally cool that you're thinking the way you are. In the end, this is a game, so its really not worth pissing off your family for for no apparent reason. Also, just remember you can always use your own paint scheme and use the same rules.

Note to Khorgor, this may be the internet pal, but try and remember that there's real people with real lives & consequences on the other end.

Bernard
14-04-2005, 15:11
oke thanks all for the info....

anyway... ill probable change the chapter, I live in holland, even near a place where they had an concentration camp, so my family have tolled me alot of not so nice stories...( no they where not in the camps, but they heard alot of stories from the survivors after the war )

I dont wanna hear my granny say: mmmh... nazi marines :( ...
This threat is not here to insult german people in anyway let that be clear ;)

Thanks

Takaratie

That does explain a lot, living in the UK we were obviously not occupied so our views on nazi and german symbology are probably very different from your own

charlie_c67
14-04-2005, 15:19
I thought the German swastika was the same it's just rotated round 45 degrees.

worldshatterer
14-04-2005, 15:42
Using the swastika is generally a bad idea, historical wargamers get all kinds of hastle for it even when their using on minis in ww2 games . in european culture afaik it had no significance before the nazi's embraced it, and then anyone wishing to identify with the nazi's used it . as an icon its just got so many bad implications its not worth using to play a non ww2 game with .

the maltese cross on the other hand has been in use since at least the middle ages, sure it got utilised by the german army as a medal but it has a context in western culture outside of nazi's and 'evil' . you should not give up on black templars for fear of people being sensitive about the cross, you should give up on them cos they're cheesy as hell!

Inquisitor Engel
14-04-2005, 17:29
anyway... ill probable change the chapter, I live in holland, even near a place where they had an concentration camp, so my family have tolled me alot of not so nice stories...( no they where not in the camps, but they heard alot of stories from the survivors after the war ) There's a distinct difference. Observe:

http://ccc.per.sg/collect/badges/d02a_ironX_CL2-ww1.jpg

Iron Cross.

http://www.serpentsofwisdom.com/images/Templar_Cross.jpg

Templar Cross, used by the Knights Templar, Teutonic Knights and the Black Templars.

They are not the same.

salty
14-04-2005, 17:40
I dont wanna hear my granny say: mmmh... nazi marines :( ...


The last time my granny was near my 40k she said "Why are you still playing with all this little green soldiers?" then stepped on three of them :mad:

That symbol was also used by the Knights of Saint Jon the Hospitaller.

Salty :)

Inquisitor Engel
14-04-2005, 17:52
That symbol was also used by the Knights of Saint Jon the Hospitaller.
Indeed it is. My Grandad was in the Order of Saint Jo(h)n.

salty
14-04-2005, 17:56
Sorry, typo :D

Kewl, very kewl. I kinda like the history of the Order of St John, thats how I knew.

Salty :)

Cacodemon
14-04-2005, 18:39
Ofcourse it's a nazi symbol. What did you think that "Suffer not the unclean to live" and "Be Pure in Mind, Body and Soult" meant? And what about toting with all them purity seals?

worldshatterer
14-04-2005, 18:46
in the case of the black templars i'd say that it has nothing to do with the nazi's . the whole point of the chapter is fielding a battlefield force of religous zealots on a holy crusade . the black templars bring an important part of the fluff to the battlefield, and in this case the fluff has little to with fascism[unlike the rest of the imperium.].

salty
14-04-2005, 19:59
The Black Templars are based on the different orders of Knights who went on Holy Crusades to the Middle East (or in one case, as far as Constantinople, a Christian bastion which they proceeded to raid, rape and sack... perhaps the BT's will turn traitor?), hence the iconography of the Knightly Orders present in Black Templar fluff.

There is nothing to do with the Nazis there as far as I can tell. The Knights wanted to be rid of the 'unclean' Muslims, the BT's want to be rid of the 'unclean' mutants.

Salty :)

5upr3m3 h4xx0rz
14-04-2005, 20:22
yep, the hindu/buddist sign was reversed to form the Nazi swastika.



That is not true....the swastika was used in ancient greece (mycenae) as the sign of death, and the reverse as the sign of life. The romans adopted this and used it on their tombs as well. If you go to italy and look at some of the ancient tombs, they have the swastika on them. Why? Because its the sign of death.

Now, if the hindus use it to, then thats ok, but its not originally from the hindus.

Also the cross was and is not a nazi sign, iirc its a sign of bravery.

HalberdBlue
14-04-2005, 20:31
Heh, actually the swastika was used by the Proto-Indo-Europeans before the Greeks, if you want to get really ancient.

salty
14-04-2005, 20:43
Suffice to say that it has been used by many many cultures over the centuries, and only recently has it been tainted with the evils that came with the Nazis.

Salty :)

5upr3m3 h4xx0rz
14-04-2005, 21:10
Heh, actually the swastika was used by the Proto-Indo-Europeans before the Greeks, if you want to get really ancient.


Thats pretty much what the mycenaens were, so it makes sense that they would use it. The mycenaens werent greeks they were from eastern europe/western asia. Maybe this is all connected somehow...

Maybe its all a conspiracy by the illuminati to control the world! Oh wait, they already do!

EmperorsChamp01
14-04-2005, 22:22
Salty the BT will never turn trator because they are the most faithful chapter. The german iron cross was given to german soilders because of their bravery like the us's MOH and they where using it way b4 hitler came about.. The german swastika was based off the Hindu sigh for peace.

salty
15-04-2005, 16:25
Yes, but the Knights were supposedly the good and honest Christians going to rescue the Holy Land. Instead, they got sidetracked and decided to sack a great Christian city instead.

I know, its spurious and and a weak link, but you never know...

Could be an interesting plot hook?

Salty :)

Inquisitor Engel
15-04-2005, 16:43
Yes, but the Knights were supposedly the good and honest Christians going to rescue the Holy Land. Instead, they got sidetracked and decided to sack a great Christian city instead.
IIRC, at the time it was Istanbul by that point, and not Constantinople.

That said, it was more successful than the 'Children's Crusade' :p. Most of the participants of which made it as far as Sicily before being captured and sold into child slavery.

Marsekay
15-04-2005, 17:00
I have never considered the BT's Nazi looking or even German.
The Raven Guard on the other hand....
Seem very Nazi to me for some reason....

salty
15-04-2005, 17:27
Hehe, yeah...

Still gotta admire their courage! For a bunch of kids they did pretty well for themselves.

As for the sacking of Constantinople, it happened in the 1200's, when Constantinople was still Christian (I'm studying history at the mo :D). The Crusaders decided that the Eastern Christians weren't really Christians at all, and attacked Constantinople.

The Pope was horrified but had little choice but accept this. The Turks sacked it, and subsequently renamed it, in the early 1500's (something like 1425 IIRC).

As for the BT's, one can imagine them getting swept up in some religious fervour and deciding that a religious group does not venerate the Emperor enough, and descending on them in their full fury. More misguided than heretical, but traitorous nonetheless.

Salty :)

devolutionary
15-04-2005, 22:34
I have never considered the BT's Nazi looking or even German.
The Raven Guard on the other hand....
Seem very Nazi to me for some reason....
I'm not surprised really. Straight black armour with raptor (in the "bird of prey" sense) symbols reminds me of watching SS troops marching past eagles perched upon Swastikas.

On the Swastika debate, I'm surprised nobody has pointed out that the most likely culture for adoption of this very simple geometric shape comes from Nordic mythology and runic systems. While it's origins are steeped in indo-european theory and history, it has featured in Europe for a long time, with various meanings including good luck, strength, and even the sun.

Now, as for Templars being Nazis, I think that's well off base on an individual level. At the same time, the entire Imperium reeks of nazism, complete with xenophobia, conquest, and hatred. However, this could relate to any fascist or militant culture in the past. The Crusaders are not renowned as the nicest folks, and genocide has historically been a righteous goal at the time.

I guess it all comes down to your comfort. If you don't feel happy with a black military force bearing an ancient military symbol, then that's fine. I'm not going to hold that against you in the slightest because ultimately this is a game. If you don't like something, nobody should give you a hard time about it.

However, if someone has a BT army and you refuse to play them simply "coz they're nazis", then that's a little off :)

EmperorsChamp01
16-04-2005, 02:06
The reason y the crusaders took out Constatinople was some one informed the inquisition that they where being sacraligious and they were turning away from Cristanity. The BT are based on the Cursaders of old because in a sence the BT are on a holy mission set apon them by their primarch. And yes the Raven guard or even the doom eagles remind me of Germanys Nazi party.

Cacodemon
16-04-2005, 05:20
Knights Templar were a bunch of satan worshipping loonies, practicing debauchery in the name of Baphomet. Hitler and Himmler were fascinated by the knights, incorporating their customs, traditions, organization and yes, even their symbols for the elite SS.

Hmm... all this makes me wanna play BLACK TEMPLARS!

anarchistica
16-04-2005, 23:02
anyway... ill probable change the chapter, I live in holland, even near a place where they had an concentration camp, so my family have tolled me alot of not so nice stories...( no they where not in the camps, but they heard alot of stories from the survivors after the war )

I dont wanna hear my granny say: mmmh... nazi marines :( ...
If she does that you slap her in the face and say: "Nee stomme trut, dat zijn geen swastikas maar ijzeren kruizen uit de middel-eeuwen". That should get the point across. ;)

And on this, have you ever noticed that Space Marines use the eagle as symbol, like the nazis? They totally dig Latin and the ancients too, like Hitler.

Besides, so what if your granny thinks that, do you think she appreciates everything else you do, wear or have? I don't think any grandparent would seek something behind this, let alone bring it up.

Wolflord Bloodangel
17-04-2005, 03:19
Its quite obvious though, that GW borrowed a lot of Nazi-era Germanic designs when it came to the creation of the Imperium. Theyve combined this 'hatred of the alien' with a kind of fundamentalist christian fanatacism and a number of other sources of mateial when it came to the inspiration behind the whole 40k world. Thats not a bad thing, it makes a very compelling story behind the little palstic men we play with.

That said, I know Im a little hesitant to ever get an Imperial Eagle tattoo, incase someone misunderstands and thinks Im some kind of neo-nazi. That said, one of the guys at club has an EXCELLENT imperial eagle across his shoulders/back...

salty
17-04-2005, 09:24
The knights Templar were not, for the most part, satan worshippers. It was made up by the Church, who was getting terrified of their power, and decided to limit it by wiping them out. They only admitted worshipping satan when the INquisition set to torturing them... I think anyone would admit to anything if placed under the right amount of pain.

To keep this a little more on topic, the Imperial politics are definitely very Naziist, but not in the normal sense; they don't for example hate all people from Valhalla do they (kinda Russian :D), or all the Tech Adepts who worship the Machine God? Rather, they hate a common enemy of mankind, aliens, and thus it generally goes unnoticed by players.

Salty :)

Kohhna
17-04-2005, 10:00
That is not true....the swastika was used in ancient greece (mycenae) as the sign of death, and the reverse as the sign of life. The romans adopted this and used it on their tombs as well. If you go to italy and look at some of the ancient tombs, they have the swastika on them. Why? Because its the sign of death.

Now, if the hindus use it to, then thats ok, but its not originally from the hindus.

Its probably not from the Greeks originally either (FYI Hinduism goes back far longer than ancient greece). In hindusim it represents the great noise at the beginning of the world from where all other noises come (sort of like the Big Bang theory).

The Navajo use the Swastica in their religious rites. It was featured as part of an episode of the X-files that featured the Navajo and there was a huge kick up about it.

It is a very basic geometric arrangement, no wonder it gets used a lot.

Lostanddamned
17-04-2005, 14:00
the BT will never turn trator because they are the most faithful chapter.

What about the infinately devoted word bearer leigion, they were the most faithful leigon, I'm sure they went traitor...

My own personal veiwpoint on the subject is based on the fact my great uncle Otto Bahr was chief engineer for the building of the bismark and as such I have been taught about both sides of the second world war as long as I have been able to speak, as well as what i have been taught in schools. I think that whilst it would be stupid to have the clearly nazi image of the swastika on models there is nothing wrong with having less obvious refernces in the background, or indeed the occasional obvious foreground reference (eg stormtroopers) as long as it is not in bad taste.

salty
17-04-2005, 15:35
I think therefore, it has been established that the Black Templars are not in any way Nazis. The most obvious reference is that they are based on the Crusader Knights (virtually all of whom used the BT's chapter symbol as their own symbol).

As to what effect this would have on the game, my theory is: little to none.

Salty :)

Lord_Sanguinius
17-04-2005, 18:02
its not a nazi symbol. if it was then why would gamesworkshop put up a symbol of something that tried to crush the UK in world warII?

anarchistica
17-04-2005, 18:58
its not a nazi symbol. if it was then why would gamesworkshop put up a symbol of something that tried to crush the UK in world warII?
Erm, Space Marines aren't the 'good guys', so it makes sense that they are based on Nazism and organised religion.

Grimtuff
17-04-2005, 19:20
That said, I know Im a little hesitant to ever get an Imperial Eagle tattoo, incase someone misunderstands and thinks Im some kind of neo-nazi. That said, one of the guys at club has an EXCELLENT imperial eagle across his shoulders/back...


I got that too, I was in a seminar at uni discussing something related to Nazis and the lecturer sees my bag (the GW one with the 2 headed eagle on it) and says to me

"i saw your bag when you walked in, and i immeidiatly thought 'nazis' " :eek:

EmperorsChamp01
11-05-2005, 12:16
Y arnet the SM good guys Anarchistica?? They Protect the People. I think that the Imperium is based on Communism. The IG have Commisars, The Vallhallens look like some one youd see on the eastern front. They believe that if you work you get salvation.

salty
11-05-2005, 15:19
The Imperium is a mix of Naziism, Communism and the capitlist Westerners.

The Space Marines, and indeed, no-one in the 40k galaxy could be construed as 'good guys'. Space Marines are happy to virus bomb whole worlds because of suspected heresy among a small group of people. They are relentless and uncaring in their pursuit of defence of the Imperium.

Salty :)

Black Mage
11-05-2005, 16:55
In the words of Stalin "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs."

zealousheretic
16-05-2005, 17:40
Y arnet the SM good guys Anarchistica?? They Protect the People. I think that the Imperium is based on Communism. The IG have Commisars, The Vallhallens look like some one youd see on the eastern front. They believe that if you work you get salvation.

I beg to differ.

The Tau have a collectivist or Communist society; each member of the society works primarily for the good of the whole.

This is the "dark element" people always look for in the Tau. Not Communism itself, but the logical result of a culture that indoctrinates its members into reflexively putting the whole ahead of their own well-being. Despite the Tau's insistance that none of their soldiers are expendable, they've conditioned them to be willing to die for nothing, if ordered to do so.

Looking Soviet does not a communist society make; the Imperium is more of a fascist society; constantly at war with enemies within and without, and using that to justify placing power in the hands of a few. The Imperium also places little to no value on the individual (unless they're part of the upper class, of course), but tends to adopt policies based on force and coercion, although the Imperial Cult is certainly a potent form of control over the masses.

Xenophobic, intolerance, doctrinal, and brutal, the Imperium is not, by any stretch, a "good" culture. Of course, the 40k galaxy is such a ghastly place, with no shortage of deadly enemies within and without, that the Imperium's policies, monstrous as they are, are hard to fault.

Finally, Space Marines are terror troops. Despite the tendency to depict them primarily in a defensive posture, the fluff describes them as aggressive combatants.

Much of their effectiveness involves brutal lightning strikes and assaults. Many times the fluff describes rebellions ended quickly by a series of surgical strikes by Astartes, usually involving the entire rebel leadership slaughtered without mercy in a series of flawlessly timed attacks.

That was long.