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Guirgi
18-11-2007, 02:42
I've been out of the hobby for a few years, but I'm planning a comeback now that the new HE book is out. Now, I'm not too concerned about if the list is broken or not (that debate will go on for months...), but I am concerned about the opinions of non-HE players.

I remember the days of Wood Elves during the Ravening Hordes days. The way most people played the list, opponents often dreaded playing against them (no hth combat just doesn't make for a good game). What have your experiences been? Are they fun to play agains, or does ASF make it more of a pain then a game? As always, I appreciate the input.

MalusCalibur
18-11-2007, 03:35
I remember the days of Wood Elves during the Ravening Hordes days. The way most people played the list, opponents often dreaded playing against them (no hth combat just doesn't make for a good game).

I find this is still the case with WE...they skulk around, avoiding you :S I still havn't figured out a solid way of beating them with my armies yet.

As for High Elves, I expect a lot of non High Elf players will come into this topic and complain about how unbalanced/unfair/unfun ASF has made them.
I guess it really depends on your army, and your army's composition. If you're DE, you'll be in for a rough time (so I've heard), but otherwise you should be alright so long as you don't let them use ASF to their advantage. Shoot/magic/chariot the elite infantry, for example. And remember, they're still only Elves: T3 and bad armour!


MalusCalibur

Lord Raneus
18-11-2007, 03:48
Seems to me that they are still a fun army to play against. The only thing about ASF is that it allows the HE player to have slightly more of a cushion in letting his units get charged, but it's not game-breaking against any races, with the *possible* exception of the current DE, who are getting redone in 6 months anyways, so it's all fine. :)

Grinloc
18-11-2007, 04:16
When it comes to WE...they will most likely have massive problems against ASF, similar to DE. Quite expensive units with T3, low AS and comparatively "few" models on the table doesn't sound like any advantage to me. Treekins and stuff might be tougher, but still will suffer in a frontal confrontation.
At least they'd have the option of playing "hide and seek" to fall back on.

Horde armies would at least have the option to do things like suffocating their HE opponent's units to compensate for their mostly low AS.

No matter which army one actually plays, the general tactics against HE will be extensively altered, unless being capable of using a gunline.

HE pretty much have always been an elite army, only difference now is that they are excessively more dangerous than before, with probably a lil less units on the table compared to 6th edition.

Chiungalla
18-11-2007, 05:13
More fun then before in my opinion.

In 6th edition high elves were all about cavalry, if the high elf player wants to win.
In 7th edition, you can field more types of units, that will perform good.

And alltrough the high elves will field more fragile troops as block infantry, they will not go up in number of units and models, so you can cheer about every single elf gone in the game.
And in general mixed forces will be far more fun to play, then cavalry only lists.

If they (nearly because of the core choices) only field cavalry like in the old days, you will face more Dragon Princes (which are a very tough unit), but also very very little numbers over all.

scarletsquig
18-11-2007, 05:46
Not if your opponent takes 4 units of swordmasters/ dragon princes and 2 dragons, supported by loads of magic for those wonderful 5+ ward saves and stubborn wherever you want it.

sulla
18-11-2007, 06:09
If you're DE, you'll be in for a rough time (so I've heard), ...

Even with DE, not so bad. Our infantry (which is crap vs just about every other army except perhaps undead infantry) is crap vs HE now, assassins are 1-shot weapons now and will get cut down even on the charge other times, harpies got worse and our overpriced hydra will get hit before it gets it's (frankly pretty ordinary return attacks).

In return, there will probably be more infantry in the HE list than in past years, giving better value targets for our low strength crossbows and RBT. Chariots are even better value vs HE than they are vs many of our tougher opponents. Dark magic can actually hurt the low toughness, low strenght HE. Dark riders get to play their flee, rally, rinse, repeat magic on 300pt units of combat elves pulling them out of battleline and wasting all those HE points fruitlessly chasing them (like all monster cc units, swordmasters who actually get to kill anything meaningful will be rare when fighting DE)

So the poor unit choices in the DE book are now poor vs HE too but the gems like chariots, dragons, dark riders etc remain worthwhile and the added bonus is that our opponent will actually be fielding something that our shooting can hurt.

All that's happened is that HE have been raised to the level of most other armies. DE can still reach that level if they forget about 75% of their list. No biggie, we have to do that vs most other armies too.

Chiungalla
18-11-2007, 06:18
Not if your opponent takes 4 units of swordmasters/ dragon princes and 2 dragons, supported by loads of magic for those wonderful 5+ ward saves and stubborn wherever you want it.

Yes, this will be to easy to beat at regular point values, to be fun at all.

At 2.000 points chose one:
- 2 sitting duck mages on there dragons
- 1 sitting duck mage on a dragon, only 2 level of magic overall and no good magic defense and no wonderfull 5+ ward save and stubborn spells

cortez555
18-11-2007, 17:01
I played agasinst my mates HE the other day with my dwarfs........he beat the stuffing out of me but it was nice to see him more attacking which i think the new books does.

Chris2358
18-11-2007, 17:16
'I remember the days of Wood Elves during the Ravening Hordes days. The way most people played the list, opponents often dreaded playing against them (no HtH combat just doesn't make for a good game).'

Well I think that HtH combat is far more encouraged in the new book. I think if you had to be worried, it would have been over the last editions high elves where they were so expensive and terrible in combat people would show up to a 2k game with 4 RBTs and 3 wizards, one being a lord. I hardly even fielded a lot of HtH with my old high elves because there was no point, they were expensive and rubbish. But now I find myself with much more HtH, I have SMs and have bought WLs now, both of which are fun hard units.

If you dont want to fight a run away shoot/magic army, then a new HE list will be a good bet.

zak
18-11-2007, 17:28
It is largely irrelevant if the army is fun to play against. It's the opponent and the list chosen that counts. Any list can be abused and become a complete bore to play against. The same can be said about individual players.

ASF is certsinly not the end of WHFB as some had predicted, but allows the HE to become what they were always supposed to be - An elite army.

redbaron998
18-11-2007, 18:04
I would still say they are fun, most HE players I have been fighting havent realized how great thier Lore is with their Ward save giving spell...everyone is mainly still in Dragon mode.

Still as it is right now they arent to hard to deal with shooting wise untill they start to harness thier spells more, Most HE dont particularly like thier Archers as they can be outdone by many, Still thier magic Bows and RBT still pack a punch.

So overall,yea I would say they are fun, a good match and ASF sames you really think about how to engage them.


This all being said I believe the HE worst enemies to fight will be Dwarves and Wood Elves.

Dwarves cause they can absorb the HE offensive capabilities and have the Firepower to take down thier powerhitters of Dragons, Swormaster and such

WE cause they are if anytihng more manevurable and pack some very capable firepower, and can stay away from scary things like Swordmasters

Bluepothos
18-11-2007, 18:36
I played them today, with my Wood Elves. Very good fun, but then I would say that because I won by round 5. :)

The thought of charging his solid blocks of elite infantry was fairly scary but nothing that arrows, flank attacks and my treeman couldn't sort out.

Shank
18-11-2007, 21:26
They went overboard with the new High Elf book for sure. I am not going to say it is broken or anything, but ASF was not nessassary. High Elf infantry has a major advantage over every army now. They never have to worry about charging or being charged. All the same and makes for very simple game play. HE players will push their Swordmaster, White Lions etc all the way up. If they charge and fail, no big deal. And they have tons of stuff to protect their flanks from getting charged that way. And why would HE spearmen ever charge. Just push them up and wait.
And I am sick of people saying they are fragile. T3 is average in Warhammer. All of their Elite troops come with heavy armor. On top of that Phoniex Guard have a 4+ ward save all the time (crazy) and Lion Guard have a +2 save vs shooting. So that is a 3+ save.
The high initiative of the High Elves is completely wasted in the new book. Not to mention their superior movement. Instead of ASF maybe it should of been something like Strikes in Initative order (unlessed charged) even with Great Weapons.

Treadhead_1st
18-11-2007, 22:21
@ Shank - still going on about ASF? Played many games with/against HE yet?

6 Grail Knights charge into my Spearmen block, 5x4. I killed 1 Grail Knight before he could swing. Still got my front line obliterated by return attacks.

Didn't make any difference in the long run, as when the HE finally broke from the Grails, my 2x RBT had moved to pepper them full of shots - theoretically killed 7 of them.


Got my block charged by 40 Night Goblins with Spears. Killed many gobbos, no losses on my part. But then in 6th, I would rarely lose anyone to Gobbos anyway.


Back OT:

HE are really fiun to play against. Had an HE vs HE match, my Infantry list versus a 2x Dragon list, and it was brutal. Fun and brutal (I won overall - too many points invested in 2 models).

Took control of a friend's Beast army, and ripped an HE list similar to mine (all infantry) apart with multiple chariots and lucky magic. managed to pull flank charges off with Centigors and a few beast herds. Also got lucky and managed to break a small unit of WL on the charge with a Shaggoth, that took me into the rear arc of a Spearman unit, engaged with a Beast herd, and it got messy from there. Trolls still rock HE too, as do Minotaurs, if you keep them away from the Swordmasters (my Centigors sacrificed themselves to save a few stone trolls in this way). Chariots were plain nasty against Spearmen, and Swordmasters to a great extent.

Great fun games. Fairly close, more due to generalship mistakes on both sides, and luck - my vote is new HE are awesome to play against, even in CC.

EvC
18-11-2007, 22:27
I think they'll be fun to play against- you just have to modify your playing style to fit in with it. I know the guys who I've played so far have had fun, but then I've had the worst luck of my life since fielding High Elves!

Shank
18-11-2007, 23:46
@TreadHead- what do you mean "still" complaining about ASF? The book just came out last week!
My point is ASF is over the top and minimizes some things about the High Elves. Their high initiative is relatively meaningless and their high movement (at least on their infantry) is just not that important.
And comparing High Elf spearmen in a Combat with maybe the best calvary in the Game, Bretonnian Grail Knights, is not a great comparison.

Finnigan2004
19-11-2007, 00:17
To give you the other perspective, ASF was probably necessary if there was to be any expectation that people would field high elf infantry armies. Most other solutions would not have worked, as swordmasters always did have strike in initiative order with great weapons, and they simply could not compete with cavalry choices. Expensive infantry in warhammer always need to be able to survive a charge, and high elves would not be able to without more toughness, more armour, or something like ASF. The only other option to balance them would be to reduce the cost, but to make them an efficient choice, they would have probably ended up with high elf armies with very high model counts. This would lose most of the "feel" of the army.

Infantry in WHFB are normally at a huge disadvantage, and ASF was put in to make expensive infantry viable. Initiative is a largely irrelevant stat because most of the time combat is decided on the first turn by charging (read-- movement), toughness, strength, and armour. High elf infantry are deficient in most respects for units that are in the 10+ point range.

Before the ASF rule, all cavalry high elf armies were the norm. As a person who has many (too many) bloodletters, it is obvious that high stats on infantry without good toughness and armour is usually a waste. Simply put, they become too expensive to field in large units and they die too easily to charging or shooting opponents (I now also have large quantities of flesh hounds, who have largely replaced the bloodletters). ASF appears to have somewhat balanced this because elite infantry are a reasonable addition in an army (I think that the power builds will still emphasize cavalry and faster moving troops). For 15 points, most high elf heavy infantry is most likely a reasonable, but not overpowering choice. Spearmen are likewise good, but no better than many things other armies can field. Most people who have actually played the new high elves tell you that they are not so bad, so I say that if you like them go for it.

vorac
19-11-2007, 01:07
High elf initiative isn't useless, it's quite usefull when your up against someone else who also has ASF but has a lower I like a dwark lord with the rune of swiftness, or and empire general with the sowrd of sigismund. i really hope GW keep the old Lahmian ASF bloodline power in the futur book, i'd love to biuld a Blooddragon like vampire with ASF :)

Shank
19-11-2007, 03:51
Infantry in WHFB are normally at a huge disadvantage, and ASF was put in to make expensive infantry viable. Initiative is a largely irrelevant stat because most of the time combat is decided on the first turn by charging (read-- movement), toughness, strength, and armour. High elf infantry are deficient in most respects for units that are in the 10+ point range.

For infantry, High Elves have average toughness 3, their elite infantry all comes with heavy armor, Phoneix Guard have a 4+ ward save, White lions have a 3+ save vs shooting and Swordmasters have just plain crazy stats. I don't see how these guys would be considered deficient if they didn't have ASF. Plus, lets not forget Stubborn, Cause Fear, Woodsman. More special rules for these fragile warriors. I am sorry. They went crazy with the special rules for this army. ASF, over the top.

vorac
19-11-2007, 04:23
they just continues the trend that WE started

Chiungalla
19-11-2007, 04:51
I don't see how these guys would be considered deficient if they didn't have ASF.

Let any unit of cavalry attack your swordmasters like they are now but without ASF (or a unit with 2 attacks like dryads or orcboys with 2 choppas), and you will see why they need ASF to be of any use.

Other armies and units, can withstand charges with great numbers, good toughness and/or good armor. High elves can't do anything of this.

No one would have fielded blocks of infantry without ASF, because cavalry is so common in these days in warhammer, and high elves would be played all cavalry too, without ASF.

Loki73
19-11-2007, 05:59
They went crazy with the special rules for this army. ASF, over the top..


Yeah and we still have T3 and crap armor saves on anything remotley cheap. Over the top I think not.

Moloch the fallen
19-11-2007, 10:15
Last week I played two games against the new HE with my zombie VC. It was quite a fun game because I outnumbered him 3-4 to 1. No matter how many zombies he killed, more just kept on coming. I won the game although HE spearmen is very bad for zombies.

We had a blast because of bad dice roll, and the fact that the only army in WH that doesn't care about HE's new rule is a zombie VC army.:rolleyes:

I actually think that HE's new rules is okay and not too überpowerfull. The only army, I think, has the most trouble against the new HE right now is DE, because of they relative expensive troops, T3 and low armour saves.

Finnigan2004
19-11-2007, 12:10
.

For infantry, High Elves have average toughness 3, their elite infantry all comes with heavy armor, Phoneix Guard have a 4+ ward save, White lions have a 3+ save vs shooting and Swordmasters have just plain crazy stats. I don't see how these guys would be considered deficient if they didn't have ASF. Plus, lets not forget Stubborn, Cause Fear, Woodsman. More special rules for these fragile warriors. I am sorry. They went crazy with the special rules for this army. ASF, over the top.

Yup, they do have many special rules, but what you forget in comparing them to other infantry is point cost. You can not compare them to skaven or empire infantry for toughness because those infantry can buy survivability through ranks, which give them CR.

As stated, infantry that can not hold a charge are not worthwhile in WHFB. Figure out what most cavalry would hit and wound with on T3 infantry with a 5+ armour save. Then factor in that there are probably only ten of them standing there because of cost. It is simple really-- infantry that can not hold a charge and that costs over fifteen points per model is insanity. This is the reason for ASF was brought in-- most warhammer players quickly figure out that infantry that costs 15 points per model, and can not stand up to a charge is not viable. Without ASF high elves would still have made a viable army, but you certainly would not see any infantry on the field. It would go back to all cav and all magic all the time.

zak
19-11-2007, 20:32
Crazy with the special rules? No. Your reaction, now that was crazy. The elves are still T3, with minimal armour and will die to shooting, of any kind, impact hits and anything with high armour saves/ward saves. The elves are certainly beatable.

gorenut
19-11-2007, 20:51
To be honest, I do like the new list a lot better. It does encourage more infantry over cav. In the past, HE got the charge most of the time anyways due to their speed. Now HE have just 1 more viable tactic which is set up grounds and prep for a charge. Admittedly, I would have liked it if they attacked in Initiative order, but that's beating a dead horse now.

If anything.. what concerns me a tad more is their new force organization. I don't like the fact that they are able to take so many Rares and Specials. More specifically.. how they can totally abuse Dogs of War now. I'm sure that'll be amended when DoW gets an update, but it'll still be a wait.

SkawtheFalconer
19-11-2007, 20:58
Having played against the New High Elves with my Beastmen, I enjoyed the game a LOT more than I used to against cavalry armies. I also enjoyed it on its own merit - knowing your enemy will always strike before you, particularly with lightly armoured troops like mine, made for a very tricky battle, challenging me to actually *gasp* think about what I was doing, and what I should do next. If anything they're more fun now than they were. They have the same weaknesses, in that they're all toughness 3 with little armour and very expensive. Now, they don't crumble in combat like they used to, making it a much more balanced game, and more fun for both players.

Voodoo Boyz
19-11-2007, 21:07
Speaking as someone who bought the high elves book because my wife wanted the new dragon model, and was looking at the rules? Am I absolutely insane in the idea that even after reading all the new rules and stuff, that I'd prefer to still make a Calvary army, taking only 2 small units of Archers for Core, and then throwing the rest into Lion Chariots, Dragon Princes, a Dragon lord, and then other stuff?

Lorcryst
19-11-2007, 21:27
I've played a couple of games against the 7th ed HEs, using my Beasts of Chaos and my Night Goblin horde ... and I think that they are more fun to play against now than before.

Yeah, ASF is powerfull, but it's still rolling dice, luck can play a part in there ... and chariots hurt HEs to no end.

Definitively more fun than the "Cavalry Army of Doom and White Frills" that I had to fight against before ...

Shank
20-11-2007, 12:17
Crazy with the special rules? No. Your reaction, now that was crazy. The elves are still T3, with minimal armour and will die to shooting, of any kind, impact hits and anything with high armour saves/ward saves. The elves are certainly beatable.

Let me again repeat myself. T3 is average in Warhammer. With the exception of Dwarfs, Orcs, some Chaos, and Lizards. How you can say "they have minimal armor" is just not thinking. They have a unit with a heavy armor and a 4+ ward and a unit that is has 3+ save from shooting. All of their knights have a 2+ save, equal to anything in Bretonnia. And by the way, Bretonnians are T3.

Right now with ASF, the High Elves have everything. They can charge (infantry has some of the highest movement in the game, their cavalary charges 16 inches) and they can hold a charge. And basically, all of their units play the same role. The army is quite easy to field now.

Take out ASF and replace it with "all army strikes with initative order with Great Weapons unless charged" and you have a tactically challenging army.
Your White Lions if they get charged are Stubborn at 9 leadership! They aren't going anywhere. So after you whether the first round you tear the opponent appart. Same with Phoniex Guard. 4+ ward save combined with heavy armor is off the charts. A 4+ ward save for a hero usually goes for 45 points! Now you have a whole unit with one! The only unit you would have to protect and make sure they do the charging are the Swordmasters. But hey, they are killing machines.

And, oh yeah. Without ASF you knock back their points cost to about 2 points. Should get you more models.

silashand
20-11-2007, 12:57
IMO the HE are less fun to play against now with the new rules (and yes, I have played against them as well as watched them play). You basically have a choice: close in with them and let them have their ASF way with you or sit back and magic/shoot them to death. If you choose the first option you should bring chariots and stuff that will slaughter them before they get to strike. Since they don't really have to worry about flanking attacks now they tend to be static and less manouverable I've noticed. IMO if you go the shooting route against them it seems to work relatively well as most of their elite units will be big point sinks and thus good targets. The downside is that by using this strategy your opponents elites will rarely see combat and thus not be much fun for them unless you intentionally engage them.

All in all playing against the new HE was exactly what I expected with ASF: dull. JMO though...

Cheers, Gary

emperorpenguin
20-11-2007, 13:35
Speaking as someone who bought the high elves book because my wife wanted the new dragon model, and was looking at the rules? Am I absolutely insane in the idea that even after reading all the new rules and stuff, that I'd prefer to still make a Calvary army, taking only 2 small units of Archers for Core, and then throwing the rest into Lion Chariots, Dragon Princes, a Dragon lord, and then other stuff?

I agree with you Voodoo. I bought the book to swot up (as a Druchii player) and if I built an Asur army I'd go for Dragon, Chariots, Dragon Princes, bolt throwers and archers.
But mainly because I think the core plastics and 5th ed infantry are ugly!


@Silashand: I fear that is how things are panning out. Most advice on the new High Elves suggests shoot them or use chariots. I worry this book may have swapped one problem for another

W0lf
20-11-2007, 13:52
Depends entirely on the list you play.

My empire vs Elves just isnt funny for the elf player.

ASF dosnt work when you dont reach my lines... ever.
Oh look a dragon, meet 2 cannons.
hahahaha he took spear elves.. what the hell.

So yer. I love that match up, gunning down poncy nancy boys is good. Plus watch the High elf player cry when his dragon is dead first turn.

My chaos vs High elves

Very fun match up. But only because i play Tzeentch and High elf players at my store still dont get the fact swordmasters are ridiculously powerful...

Any other chaos but Tzeentch and its just pure ugly for the chaos player.

Treadhead_1st
20-11-2007, 13:55
@ Shank - without ASF, even with go in initiative unless charged, the Elves will never get to fight -a Knightly charge will kill the front rank (Str5-6 depending on foe) with no saves, then the unit will probably break and flee. Wahoo, what a way to spend all my points. White Lions won't run, but then they've just been slaughtered anyway - sure, next round these will hit back hard...but then any cavalry sucks second round anyway!

Yes, some of our units are good in some situations - but remember, there is no one unit with ALL the bonuses you mentioned. Phoenix Guard are meant to be defensive, and they are. White Lions get protection against shooting, but still only have Heavy Armour in CC. Swormasters get a lot of attacks, but are weak to shooting.

Our knight's don't necessarily all have 2+ - you have to pay to boost Silverhelms to decent defence, Dragon Princes are meant to be heavy cavalry, so what's the issue, and then there are the Ellyrian Reaver Light Cav. Empire have a 2+ Sv Cavalry unit too - this unfair as well - I mean thy have large blocks of troops to hold a charge, they have Elite troops [Greatswords] to dish it out, powerful shooting and can have good wizardry - so there is little difference? Bretonnia have M@A to absorb charges, and multiple units of Heavy cavalry (KotR, KE, Grail Knights, to a lesser extent Questing Knights), some Magic [albeit limited], Archer units to shoot up the enemy (unlimited size Skirmishing Archers!) and can throw in a Trebuchet as well [I used to play Bretonnians & Empire, so don't think I'm trying to be sassy and pretend to know more than I do]

The unit's don't all play a same role. I cannot charge with my Archers as effectively as my Dragon Princes now, can I? Spearmen will provide a Rank Bonus, but I am not taking 20 Swordmasters, it's too expensive. They still get shot to bits, War Machines are their bane as well, as few people use Shadow Warriors and the Cavlary is a prime target.

And 4+ Wardsave for our heroes is 45/55pts, depending on which you take. Phoenix Guard were given a Wardsave to create a unit that can hold against nearly anything - but can't really dish out any damage though, and get very expensive if you want to capitalize on their Fear rule.

@ Silashand:

Sounds like you had an unlucky game. Elven Infantry is designed to be offensive in nature now - you get into a good position and then can either charge the enemy or make them charge you. It's the point of the Spearmen (you should have shot them to pieces/chariot-ed them, flanked with cavalry etc before they reach you).

I think you may find it tricky to find a way to beat the Elves and make your opponent have fun whilst doing it - the things that Elves are bad against cause trouble for many people (shooting, chariots etc) - and it may ave been more fun if the Spearmen blocks were used offensively to support the Elites, instead of defensively (static).

Elves can't really afford the shooting to force the enemy to come to them AND still have enough points left to have decent units to intercept the enemy when they arrive. If the Elves play this game (this goes for most armies), Cannon/Cavalry the Archer units off the board, then close in on the Spearmen etc with Thunderers/Handgunners/Archers of your own, whilst the combat units advance on in. Won't do much damage if there are only 10 Elves left in a unit, and you hit them with about 20 Warriors/State Troops/Whatever, believe me!

Did you have more fun playing against the Silverhelm/Dragon Prince list then - where it would hit your lines in the fist or second turn, and just reap it's way through units?

W0lf
20-11-2007, 14:00
the above poster quite clearly has no idea.

Treadhead_1st
20-11-2007, 14:05
And that is because?

I've played Empire for 5 years, Bretonnian 1&1/2 and taken both armies to RTTs and GTs. Played balanced armies, and always did reasonably well.

Been interested in High Elves for about a year now, did lots of playtesting under the old rules, and since the book is released have played about 12 games - just saying what seems to work well against the elves these days and why, both from games that went against me, games I've won, and games I've watched whilst at work.

Kellindel
20-11-2007, 14:17
I had a bunch of stuff written out to respond to these two that think ASF is broken but I've come to the conclusion that it really isn't worth talking about it to these two trolls.

Is you think it's that bad play another game and let everyone else whos' given it a shot and found nothing WRONG with it some peace and quite.

last akodo
20-11-2007, 14:50
@ w0lf I'm curious why treadhead apparently has no idea?

I dislike ASF on principle rather than balance issues (seems like a quick fix to me and is a bit buggy, why do DE and WE move slower than their HE kin? this is a retorical question btw). As finnigan has pointed out the rule makes HE exactly what they are meant to be: a compact elite force. Frankly having heard what others have said and doing the maths it doesn't seem too good (except on swordsmaster but shooting/chariots/magic/attrition will sort them out fine).

OT I haven't played them as yet but I am looking forward to having a few games against them. Atleast they are competative now. Heck if they are over the top let them have it, they sucked for 5 or so years so they'll get to shine for 5 or so years before meeting the nerf stick again.

Kellindel
20-11-2007, 15:01
Though I have no problems with ASF, it IS a quick fix to a deeper problem.

Kind of like the Cult of Sleneesh being a quick fix for Dark Elves.

knightwire
20-11-2007, 15:21
Let me again repeat myself. T3 is average in Warhammer. With the exception of Dwarfs, Orcs, some Chaos, and Lizards. How you can say "they have minimal armor" is just not thinking. They have a unit with a heavy armor and a 4+ ward and a unit that is has 3+ save from shooting. All of their knights have a 2+ save, equal to anything in Bretonnia. And by the way, Bretonnians are T3.

For what you pay for HE infantry T3 is not average. Not to mention you're only looking at half the information. Even if T3 was considered average it's not mutually exclusive with T3 being 'Fragile'. T3, AS5 Swordmasters at 15 pts a pop is killy but fragile. Even the Lion cloaks that give an extra +1 AS aren't that protective. (Oh and not present on 85% of our infantry.) Only the Phoenix Guard have serious wound resilence and they are far less killy than the SMs.



Right now with ASF, the High Elves have everything. They can charge (infantry has some of the highest movement in the game, their cavalary charges 16 inches) and they can hold a charge. And basically, all of their units play the same role. The army is quite easy to field now.

How many games have you played either with or against the new HE? (Obviously from your statement above Zero?)

How many armies have you built with the new rules?

Alti Elfi
20-11-2007, 16:06
ASF is definately not as broken as it may seem, if I were to pitch the arguably hardest infantry unit in the HE army; the White Lions, against the most generic infantry in the world; Empire swordsmen, they would come out on top but barely.
The scenario goes as follows, 15 White Lions 7 wide (240p) gets charged by a unit of 30 swordsmen 5 wide (235p) White Lions will win the combat with 1 point on average, this is not very good odds, preferably you should win by at least 2 point on average to be sure to break ld7 troops.
Note that I have not included detachements in the scenario as they would just support my opinion to a rediculus degree.:angel:

Treadhead_1st
20-11-2007, 18:33
Might as well make an on-topic post...

In this post, I refer to "fun" as being an enjoyable game for both players. To those who feel that "fun" is steamrollering the opponent in the quickest time possible, then no, the new Elves will not be fun unless you go pure gunline. And then it isn't fun for the HE player, nor anyone else the list goes up against.

The new high elves are, IMO, fun to play against. The use of the ASF rule means that players are encouraged to play Infantry, and play it offensively, with the Cavalry in more of a supporting nature (as you need to be forceful with the Elves to get them into the right location, even if you aren't the one charging).

This leads to a better game for both players - for the opponent, as they know they won't be killed by Cavalry by the 3rd turn, and for the High Elf player, as it means they can take an infantry-supplemented/based army and still have a good, fighting chance at winning the game (whereas before you couldn't, unless your opponent was laughing so hard he forgot it was his turn).

If the HE player plays too defensively - with nothing to encourage the opponent to play offensively (as shooting does cost the HE a fair bit in points, as even with the number of Rare choices available to Bolt Throwers, they are still expensive, as are Archers).

Plus the fragility of the Elves in general means that the HE player should keep moving to try to use the M5 to flank/charge the enemy - as nearly anyone can beat the Elf in combat (ASF aside for now).

This leads to a game where both players have to move - the opponent to stop themselves being flanked, and to try to flank the Elves in turn. This is of course unless you play a pure gunline, in which case needing to move is certainly not fun for you.

My summary: yeah, the new High Elves ARE fun to play against, as it creates a very dynamic game and makes the movement phase much more important than "charge cavalry unit into that..." - a wrong move can cost you the game as it may allow the HE units into your lines, and then everything falls apart. But likewise the same is true for the HE player - and it will usually be easier for the HE player to lose models/entire regiments as 1) there are less models on the table overall and 2) the models you do have are rather fragile (matter of opinion it would seem...) so they die easily to shooting and nearly anything in combat (but ASF makes up for this a little or a lot, depending on the foe).

Games where you have to think & manoeuvre with skill = fun all round, IMO.

Oguleth
20-11-2007, 20:48
Forgive an old slack guy to come by, but in general they have put in some new rules and not altered the points cost/survivability in any noticable way? The new book is mostly about avoiding/shooting up the points sink units (and remove the last strand of actually going hth with them) like the Swordmasters? Ie the good old shooting/cav/chariots are about the same pain, HE just became better at wiping the floor with units people will skip taking (ie like druchii infantry) and take the aforementioned standard "value for points" units?

After a long stay out of the game I was considering returning due to an elven revamp, but this sounds like.. A good way of annoying "sporty" opposition while not really solving much in the competitive enviroment, but then again, Im pretty negative I guess :p

W0lf
20-11-2007, 20:48
if I were to pitch the arguably hardest infantry unit in the HE army; the White Lions

you faield already.

Swordmasters are the hardest infantry.

ad ill do the maths assuming normal things (like the Swordmasters are 7 wide for maximum killyness and the swordsmen are 5 wide for maximum static CR.

14 Swordmasters, FC
235 pts? (FC = 25 pts?)

VS

35 Swordsmen
FC.

right.

15 attacks at swordsmen.
10 hits
1.6 (so 2) fail to wound.
1.3 saves made (so 2)

Thats 8 kills, rank, standard = +10

Empire are on 3 ranks standard, outnumber = 5.
Swordsmen are at ld 4 at best (if general is close)

Close eh? The swordsmen nearly had them!

Oh and if you were to add a typical empire detachment to the fray the swordmasters would probably just rack up more kills.


@ w0lf I'm curious why treadhead apparently has no idea?

ill list a few quick points.


without ASF, even with go in initiative unless charged, the Elves will never get to fight -a Knightly charge will kill the front rank (Str5-6 depending on foe) with no saves, then the unit will probably break and flee. Wahoo, what a way to spend all my points.

every army also has the same problem.


White Lions won't run, but then they've just been slaughtered anyway - sure, next round these will hit back hard...but then any cavalry sucks second round anyway!

so the white lions will anhilate the cavalry? oh yer now i see why the elves need ASF... wtf???


Yes, some of our units are good in some situations - but remember, there is no one unit with ALL the bonuses you mentioned.

why? should they then?


Phoenix Guard are meant to be defensive, and they are. White Lions get protection against shooting, but still only have Heavy Armour in CC. Swormasters get a lot of attacks, but are weak to shooting

yes they are a specilised army.. hwo does this stop them being really powerful?


Our knight's don't necessarily all have 2+ - you have to pay to boost Silverhelms to decent defence, Dragon Princes are meant to be heavy cavalry, so what's the issue

Silver helms are imo useless in a power gaming army. Dragon princes are really really cheap for what they are. NEVER under estimate the effect of +2 attacks.


Empire have a 2+ Sv Cavalry unit too - this unfair as well - I mean thy have large blocks of troops to hold a charge, they have Elite troops [Greatswords] to dish it out, powerful shooting and can have good wizardry - so there is little difference? Bretonnia have M@A to absorb charges, and multiple units of Heavy cavalry (KotR, KE, Grail Knights, to a lesser extent Questing Knights), some Magic [albeit limited], Archer units to shoot up the enemy (unlimited size Skirmishing Archers!) and can throw in a Trebuchet as well [I used to play Bretonnians & Empire, so don't think I'm trying to be sassy and pretend to know more than I do]

Yes so two armies that have a mix. Still dosnt defeat the point that high elves are very strong. Just ebcause other armies have SIMILAR options dosnt mean anything. Oh and of course othjer armies are better at somethings.. no one said high elves were best at everything.


The unit's don't all play a same role. I cannot charge with my Archers as effectively as my Dragon Princes now, can I? Spearmen will provide a Rank Bonus, but I am not taking 20 Swordmasters, it's too expensive. They still get shot to bits, War Machines are their bane as well, as few people use Shadow Warriors and the Cavlary is a prime target.

dont really get your point? Your really just stating the obvious. I dont field 50 chosen chaos knights in one block. Therefore they arnt that good? My chosen warriors dont outshoot empire handgunners, so they arnt strong at all...


and that'll do. Theres no real argument to what he posted.

Alti Elfi
20-11-2007, 22:07
My reasoning for calling the White Lions the hardest infantry in the High Elf army is not exclusively based on hitting power, but also on the ability to actually reach an enemy line somewhat intact, anyone who would allow a unit of swordmasters to reach their line in one piece, deserves to get their rear end handed to them in a sling ,with a nice bow on it.

I do sincerely believe the Swordmasters are far inferior to White Lions, due to the lack of staying power. A single handgunner has a 30% chance of downing a swordmaster twice his points on short range.

I`m not trying to argue the fact that swordmasters are incredible in CC, but the fact is that unless you go all out with 4+ units of them, they will never see combat against anybody with any shooting capability.

To be on topic, I have played 2 games so far with the new rules, my list was composed as a very combat heavy Chracian force, my first opponent was a Dark Elf player who was eager to test himself against his new and improved nemesis, I got a minor victory much due to the fact that the WL were almost impervious to his RxB. The second match was against a VC player who totally massacred me. In hindsight a few Swordmaster units would probably hve been a good idea here, but my opponent seemed quite satisfied with my new totally über rules.

Shank
20-11-2007, 22:57
For what you pay for HE infantry T3 is not average. Not to mention you're only looking at half the information. Even if T3 was considered average it's not mutually exclusive with T3 being 'Fragile'. T3, AS5 Swordmasters at 15 pts a pop is killy but fragile. Even the Lion cloaks that give an extra +1 AS aren't that protective. (Oh and not present on 85% of our infantry.) Only the Phoenix Guard have serious wound resilence and they are far less killy than the SMs.


How many games have you played either with or against the new HE? (Obviously from your statement above Zero?)

How many armies have you built with the new rules?

Well, they are 15 points a pop because they have awesome stats and ASF. Drop the ASF make swordmasters about 13 points. Everyone keeps saying "Oh, High Elf infantry is so expensive, they need ASF", but you guys keep forgeting "they are so expensive because they "Have" ASF".

You guessed it, zero. But it doesn't take a genius to look over the book and figure this all out. I have played many, many games in my life and I kinda know what I am talking about. Hey, you play High Elve I guess, and are happy with the book. That's great. Just admitt it, they went overboard. It's ok, you can admitt it.

Shank
20-11-2007, 23:02
[QUOTE=Treadhead_1st;2110841]@ Shank - without ASF, even with go in initiative unless charged, the Elves will never get to fight -a Knightly charge will kill the front rank (Str5-6 depending on foe) with no saves, then the unit will probably break and flee. Wahoo, what a way to spend all my points. White Lions won't run, but then they've just been slaughtered anyway - sure, next round these will hit back hard...but then any cavalry sucks second round anyway!

Part of the game is trying to charge, not getting charged. That is what the game is all about. High Elves have gotten simplisitic. ASF is a no brainer way to make the elves better in combat. But hurts other aspects of the game. Like movement, screening units, protecting flanks etc. I know when I play against them, I am going with a lot of shooting because I can't compete in close combat. Unless I want to lose a lot of guys.

enyoss
20-11-2007, 23:26
every army also has the same problem.

Well yes, every army does have the same problem. However it looks like, in an attempt to differentiate the races, the design team decided that at least some armies should have infantry which can stand up to a cavalry charge.

When I first heard the rumours I too was skeptical of the new rules. However, the current army book is definitely a step in the right direction in my opinion. The only other option is to basically make High Elves as survivable as Empire... and with the points cost to match that survivability. So what we're left with is a tonne of races with very little to differentiate each other spare their background and Magic Items.

It's probably worth saying that I have yet to play a game with or against the new High Elves. Still, it does genuinely seem that as more games are played the feedback seems to imply that the sky isn't falling after all :D. I'm definitely looking forward to my first game with them!

Cheers,

enyoss

@W0lf: I couldn't really see why you felt the need to put a one line put-down to Treadhead_1st either :(. I may not agree with your reasoning, but your point by point rebuttal was at least a bit better.

Finnigan2004
20-11-2007, 23:42
Sorry Shank, but there are a bunch of other people here who have played games and know what they are talking about too. There is a strong possibility that you are wrong on this one because toughness 3 infantry for 13 points will not work either. Simply put, assuming that an opponent has a reasonable amount of cavalry; they will get charged by said cavalry, they will lose, and then they will break. This is why finding 13 point combat infantry with a toughness of 3 and an armour save of 5+ is very rare on warhammer tables. It is just silly to do so (By the way, I play many warhammer armies and have no desire for a new army to break the system). As to your second post, I'm sorry to say, but everyone who plays warhammer knows that getting a cavalry charge on infantry with a cavalry unit is a no brainer, as is the carnage that results. ASF means that this will take more calculation. An effect that other infantry can achieve through armour, toughness, and static CR.

Elves would still have reasonable cavalry, so they would still be a viable army. That is not the way that GW wanted it to go, however. Heck, if they left out ASF and left silver helms as core the list would probably be stronger. In fact, when people figure out the "broken builds", I am guessing that they will be very cavalry heavy. The infantry is good now, but mobility is still king in warhammer. The thing is that GW felt that it would be better if people actually fielded the infantry regiments occasionall. Especially since high elves are supposed to be known for them. There are few indications so far that ASF is broken from people who have actually played with it, so you might want to play some games before you evaluate it.

@ WOlf: Insulting someone and then trying to take quotes out of context to try to illustrate that you did in fact have a point is bad form. He actually did make some valid points, as did you (although I'm not sure how often I have seen a unit of 35 swordsmen on the table... if any empire general fielded such a large and unwieldy unit he would surely have his backside handed to him).

Generally speaking though, on your points:

- yes, many armies have trouble repelling cavalry charges. That is why they are trying a different way of making infantry survivable while maintaining the fluff for the elves at the same time. If it were not survivable, no one would field it. This would not be a desireable outcome
- I do not think that he was saying high elf infantry should have all of the bonuses listed. Rather, as you can easily see when read in context, he is saying that making a laundry list of problems for all of the units in the army does not make for fair unit comparisons. You need to evaluate the list as a gestalt.
- Again, since you brought it up later, it is pretty obvious that he was not saying that high elves should be the best at everything either. Rather that they should have the means to absorb a charge as other armies do.

enyoss
20-11-2007, 23:43
But it doesn't take a genius to look over the book and figure this all out. I have played many, many games in my life and I kinda know what I am talking about.

I've been playing for donkey's years, but I struggle to tell how an army plays until I get my hands dirty with it. In fact, I started a Wood Elf army around this time last year and even though I had read the book thoroughly I still asked for advice on how the units performed (cheers Ender Shadowkin BTW :)). Also, I can tell you that even though my opponents had read all about the Moonstone of the Hidden Ways (the unit teleport Magic Item), they didn't get to grips with it until a fair few games in. I really do think it takes hands-on experience to get to grips with these things.

As a fellow zero gamer, I urge you to be a bit wary of jumping to conclusions. They may be overpowered; I know that I'm not looking forward to my first game against them anyway. As they say though, you can't knock it until you've tried it ;).

Cheers,

enyoss

knightwire
21-11-2007, 00:17
Well, they are 15 points a pop because they have awesome stats and ASF. Drop the ASF make swordmasters about 13 points. Everyone keeps saying "Oh, High Elf infantry is so expensive, they need ASF", but you guys keep forgeting "they are so expensive because they "Have" ASF".

Emphasis mine. That is what I'm saying ace. ASF is not overpowered because we pay to have it. Our units aren't invincible. If fact they are flat out dead meat in 2 of the 3 martial phases of the game. Also if you would even built a single 2,000 point army you would know that we can't get it all. Get over it.




You guessed it, zero. But it doesn't take a genius to look over the book and figure this all out. I have played many, many games in my life and I kinda know what I am talking about. Hey, you play High Elve I guess, and are happy with the book. That's great. Just admitt it, they went overboard. It's ok, you can admitt it.


Please. Apparrently it doesn't take a genius to go on and on about an army with little or no experience using it. In 6 months when people like you have have stopped losing their minds, over quite possibly the most irrational bitch I've ever seen, maybe you can actually pick up some models and thrown some dice and see why theory always takes a back seat to experience. You'll make a nice addition to my ignore list next to Shimmergloom.

Treadhead_1st
21-11-2007, 00:41
I thank the other members for their support - I did feel that W0lf's post was a little on the harsh side, with no need. I apologise to W0lf if he took any offense from my posts to justify his response - I don't see how, but the gesture is there anyway.

I wasn't saying there should be one unit that has ALL the special rules. You made a list of special rules that made our infantry "king", as the list in your post reads like only 1 unit had all those rules - I know it's not what you meant, but it appears to be implied. My point was that although each individual choice has a good strength, each choice has a different weakness - and hence should encourage balanced armies throughout the system, as there will be a need for an opponent to bring a list to deal with everything.

The key weaknesses in each unit are why they are not overpowered - tie down the Phoenix Guard, shoot the Swordmasters to oblivion and pelt the White Lions with something you know will stand the initial attacks, or with a Chariot or two. Cavalry still takes down the Spearelves as good as ever, since the attacks are only Str3, and the cavalry save should be 3+ or better at the least. Maybe you will suffer one extra casualty as you charge - here is an example for a few Empire players I know, not specifically you, W0lf, and it highlights a point I am trying to make: maybe drop a Cannon to a Mortar and buy an extra Knight to make up for the casualty, or some other similar, small change.

My mention of the Empire was that, without ASF, the HE would be able to do everything the Empire can when charged, but the Empire can do it cheaper. I wasn't saying Elves should do everything, I was saying that without this attempt at variation from GW (however poorly it may be justified), then the Elves are beaten in their roles by similar, cheaper troops. ASF can be argued to be needed as although Elves and Swordsmen die at the same rate, Swordsmen can afford to, as they have more numbers, and are cheaper to boot. And no-one expects Empire state troops to do anything in a battle anyway (it's all combat-res), but if you take HE troops they need to be able to contribute more than static res (as they are too frail [not going into that argument again] to win a war of attrition) so they have to be able to kill stuff before they bite it, hence GW's new rule. Expensive troops not doing anything = not taken in a list. Can't blame GW for jazzing up units to 1) encourage balance and 2) create more sales [as all those with Cavalry armies now need to buy something to fill core!].

Oh, and if you wanted a more accurate (from what I generally see fielded, and fielded myself) mathematical representation, take 25 Swordsmen and 10 Handgunners (detachment). Then see how powerful those Swordmasters appear to be. Should be same points cost, or near enough.

My final point was about you mentioning that the Elven units all do the same thing. Archers versus Dragon Princes is an extreme example, I admit - but I was making a point. Every unit DOES have a different role - and it's not just "killing people" either. Spears provide ranks - yet still have to hurt stuff otherwise no-one would take them, Lions some combat power that can survive shooting - very useful as peopel will be loading up on missile weapons to deal with Elves now, Swordmasters provide some very heavy CC hitting - but very fragile and will die to any missile fire sent their way, Phoenix Guard are unit that will stick around no matter what - but isn't going to hurt you directly, very much.

Just because you disagree about the reasoning I provided about why ASF isn't broken, IMO, doesn't mean you have to say that "I don't have a clue" and that "there's no argument to what he posted" when taking my quotes completely out of context, which were mostly a response to your points raised in the previous post. Chill man, it's just a game of toy soldiers - a healthy debate is fine, but no need to try to subtly put people down.



To those who are arranging games to try yourselves against the new HE, remember this: If you go into the battle thinking "Hmm, ASF may be broken" then 1) you will have less fun playing, as you will be watching out for the ASF 'pwnage', and you may not be paying enough attention to the game, and make mistakes [happened a few times against me, I believe] and 2) if ASF actually does something, you may feel it's broken - even if it's effects are bare minimal in the situation the event occurred in...if any of that makes any sense!

And, give it your best shot - you may have to try out new tactics, and some units you once thought were "useless" and abandoned from army lists may now be useful, and just generally have a good time - it should be fun, as the games take a new tactical response, and you can learn new ways to use your army - surely something any general, no matter how experienced, can gain from.

Shank
21-11-2007, 03:29
The reason KnightWire is so upset, is because he likes to play simple armies. Armies that don't challenge him in anyway. So now the new High Elves are right up his alley. Just sit back, shoot, use magic, wait till the enemy gets to you and you still go first all the time. All of the pressure is on the opponent to use tactics to overcome what has now become the High Elves.
And please, all of you sooo experienced people out their. Give me a break. The Book has been out for 2 weeks, how many games have you really played with or against the new book? 1 or 2. Oh stop the high and mighty junk. I have never said the book is "broken" or "unfair" or "unbeatable". Just, in my humble opinion, is over the top. Now if I can't express my opinion, then neither side can, for or against. They would have to close this site.
And this in no ways is an inditemant to any High Elf player. You should rejoice and make the beefy'est army you can. It is GW's whacky thought process that I sometimes just don't understand. But you High Elf guys better get used to lots of shooting, tanks and chariots. Those are going to be the main tactics against you. If you don't believe me, read other posts. I am not alone.
And don't get me started on force organization. 2core, 6 special, 4 Rare in 2000points. If ASF and all the cool special rules didn't put them over the top for you, here is another whammy!

PS Knightwire, don't ignore me.....whatever would I do......

Treadhead_1st
21-11-2007, 03:52
I have played 13 games now, as of today.

It's one of the advantages of having a HE army built ready for the new army book. And the fact that where I work, lots of people come on in wanting a crack at the new High Elves - and since I am the only one with a fully painted army, I end up facing everyone.

Shank, I agree with you on Force Organisiation. The extra Specials is characterful, but would be unnecessary if there was more choice in the Core section, and I feel 4 Rare is over the top, and seems to contradict the direction in which GW were trying to take the army with the ASF rule and stuff (ie, more offensive).

To be honest, most of my comments were directed towards W0lf, and other people on the boards who DO believe the Elf book is broken, or perhaps that the new HE units will dominate absolutely anything else in the game, because of all the new stuff that means they have to change their tactics.

As the enemy change tactics, so must we. What happens when the High Elves (or any other popular army) find a way to overcome the basic gunline force? Gunlines decrease in popularity, and the cycle of rock-paper-scissors continues.


And this goes to everyone whose guilty of it - just quit with the snide comments, there is no need for them. In all reality this is one of the silliest arguments had in Warhammer, as neither side has had enough game experience to justify any claims. It appears (whether its wrong or right is another matter entirely) that most people advocating that the book is not as bad as it's reputation, have played at least a couple of games, whereas those saying how broken it is seem to have played less, or none. Still ,much more time is needed to see which side is right.

Opinions and healthy debate, yes, it's good to see everyone's views on a topic, and say why you do or do not agree - getting personal about people's views on how well a lump of plastic imaginarily drubs another lump of plastic is, all in all, fairly pathetic (not a jibe at anyone, just a general, and fair, comment).

Kloud13
21-11-2007, 04:19
The New HE's are a blast to play with, and I believe my opponents also had a great time. Hell, they all want to play again when we get time.

All ASF does, is force your opponent to pick his fights a little better. With the one less core choice, extra specials, ect. It really allows the HE armies to vary alot. And this means each fight with the HE can be a very different gaming experience. In the previous army book, because of the high points cost, by the time I filled out my minimum core requirements, there was not alot of points left to do much with.

The Old Scholar
21-11-2007, 04:38
I just hope they're fun to play...haven't had a chance to get in any games yet...but I'm really excited about my glossy new book...there aren't any creases, greasy finger prints, ink smudges, dog-ears, chip crumbs, or tears on or in it!!!

My friends want to battle me. I hope I can entertain them and they find the new High Elves exciting to kill and get killed by.

elvinltl
21-11-2007, 13:53
I don't instend to play against HE any time soon. Thier ASF universal rule is unrealistic when my Cold Ones Knight charged my HE archers and he got to strike first. WTF?!!

Dead Man Walking
21-11-2007, 14:20
I think it would of been better to give high elves ASF only in the first round of combat, that way you have more options in how to deal with them. You could send heavy calv flying into thier front and if the combat lasted 2 rounds you could send those fragile infantry into thier flank and not get attacked first by a great weapon.

You could send in a snake swarm first to absorb that strikes first round before sending in your terradons or kroxigors.

Slayers job would just to hold the unit down for one turn before other dwarfs run in...

Kinda like how orcs are str+1 in the first round regardless of who charged.

last akodo
21-11-2007, 14:45
@elvinlti there are some situations that make very little sense with ASF (like the one you mentioned) but that is inevitible. But at the end of the day those archers getting a few shots in before they get torn to pieces by the cold ones will make almost no difference. At which point you might come to the conclusion (like I did) that all things considered ASF isn't that big a deal. The only unit that is IMO truly terrifying and very hard to counter effectively in cc without sustaing massive damage is the swordmasters. As has been pointed out by others they are very expensive and vunerable to shooting and magic. Sure you can protect them from shooting and magic but that makes them even more expensive (as you will be taking either more of them, using mages to keep them alive or magic banners).

We can only hope when the DE get their redo that these boards won't be choked with people crying cheese or that the high elves are better.

W0lf
21-11-2007, 16:19
Sorry treadhead. Personal personal attacks= not cool at all. Your obviously a bigegr person than me by not lowering yourself to the same standards. Im just fustrated with the high elves arguement and took it out on you.

I dont see how i took your points out of context thou.. i merely quoted pretty much everything in the first half of your post and explained the problem i had.

My posting did seem to imply that you think the elves should be stronger... What i meant by the comment on 'why? should they then?' was that argueing somethign isnt broken because it dosnt have a page long list of special abilits is not actually a arguement that its balanced at all.

I dont really feel that high elves are 'that' broken and yes i know they are beatable. My problems lie with hearing the same old arguements that just dont hold up and that not all armies can beat high elves.

I play in a tough gaming group that is very anti-list tailoring. Thus we use one list vs all. Yes every army can beat high elves, but not without changing their list to beat them. In a one list enviroment (say a tourny) this is highly powerful.


And i do very much see the argument for white lions over swordmasters. But truth be told i dont think white lions really are that much more surviavable.

In combat id argue they are less surviavable because they will generally get almost doule the attacks back at them, This is why swordmasters are powerful, you will rarely attack back, thus their armour makes no diffrence.

Oh and id like to point out that 'shooting swordmasters to death' is a brilliant and no-brainer on papaer. Ingame however High elves tend to have things called repeater bolt throwers, dragon princes and dragons. All take a higher priority when shooting, so unless your playing gunline....

Lets not forget also that soem armies dont have any/much ranged weapons.

Lions will get to combat easier, but they are also beaten in combat fairly easily (imo). And much easier then swordmasters.

Chiungalla
21-11-2007, 19:02
I play in a tough gaming group that is very anti-list tailoring. Thus we use one list vs all. Yes every army can beat high elves, but not without changing their list to beat them. In a one list enviroment (say a tourny) this is highly powerful.

But high elves have the same problem.
They can do very fine against every army, if tailored to beat this army.

But if they work in a one list enviroment, they have problems to field an army that can do over average against any opponent.

The same high elf list, that is an easy win against a typical tourney chaos list, will have more then serious problems against dwarfs, bretonnia and/or wood elves.


And i do very much see the argument for white lions over swordmasters. But truth be told i dont think white lions really are that much more surviavable.

They are, not because of there cloaks, but because they are stubborn.
Most units don't die to casulties, but to a missed breaking test in close combat. White Lions have a fair chance to stay till there last elf died.

W0lf
21-11-2007, 19:08
They are, not because of there cloaks, but because they are stubborn.
Most units don't die to casulties, but to a missed breaking test in close combat. White Lions have a fair chance to stay till there last elf died.

and swordmasters arnt likely to lose combat (and if they do it certainly wont be by much).. but meh w/e.

TheSanityAssassin
21-11-2007, 20:34
First off, Hats off to Wolf and Treadhead for actually solving a personal problem, and realizing that there's no point attacking another person over a game issue....

Secondly a major issue that I see here is that a lot of people take "game of maneuver" to mean "game of charge-or-be-charged". While it is the case in certain situations, there's a lot more to maneuver than that. It no longer comes down to "I can get to 8.5 inches, so you fail your charge and I can hit you" (I know I'm over simplifying, but I hope you take it as intended).

The game against the High Elves is much more a match of positioning, making sure that the combats happen where and when you want them to, with the right mix of units. I don't think anyone doubts that running hell bent for leather into the front of a HE unit will yield poor results unless you have really high toughness/armour save. But if you time your charges right, or set up counters to their charges, there's a TON of tactical thought involved in a game against them...you just have to break out of the mold of standard gameplay. Thinking about that comment....does ASF change the way you play against HE? Most definitely! But does it ruin the game, or make it un-tactical? Not a chance. While certain forces might have a bit of trouble and encourage the elves to play turtle (Mortal chaos in particular will be hard pressed IMO), playing defensively doesn't work for them against anything with speed, numbers or shooting, which covers most of the armies.

At the same time the Elf player will play a different game. I know that my movement with my High Elves is generally based on guarding my flanks, setting up counters and good positioning rather than heading for the charge. In fact, rarely will I bother to charge with Infantry against other fighty infantry...basically never with Spearelves. Does this make me a lazy or a bad player? On paper it might look like it, but I'd challenge people to watch a game I play and say that I'm being lazy and falling back on ASF....of course I use it to my advantage, but then, doesn't everyone use his/her units to best advantage? If a Dwarf player exposes the flanks of Iron Breakers to a charge, is he lazy for not guarding his flanks? No! Because he knows he can absorb that charge without much penalty, so it factors into his gameplay. But just like tactics change when fighting all-cavalry, or a gunline, they need to change against High Elves.

I will definately agree that ASF shouldn't have transfered over to certain units. Archers, Mages, RBT crews should definitely not get it, but at the same time it doesn't really make that much of a difference against almost anything. To take the above example...archers should definitely NOT strike first against charging Knights, but really with minimal attacks, S3, and 2+ armour on most knights, their chances of actually doing anything is really small, and even if they kill one, they'll probably be hosed anyway.

Anyways, I guess to summarize, to try and say that ASF does not change the way the game is played when HE are involved is silly. But to say that it ruins the spirit of the game, or takes away from the emphasis on tactics and maneuver is just foolish IMO. Can you base your game on getting the charge? Not a chance. Does that mean that any hope of tactics is buggered? No way....you just have to adapt in your thinking. Its the sign of a good general to know what he's fighting and act accordingly.

emperorpenguin
21-11-2007, 21:53
I will definately agree that ASF shouldn't have transfered over to certain units. Archers, Mages, RBT crews should definitely not get it, but at the same time it doesn't really make that much of a difference against almost anything. .


against knights they may not acheive much but Harpies and Shades (even Dark Riders) have real trouble charging a bolt thrower now

Shank
22-11-2007, 14:13
I think Sanityassassain detailed my concerns exactly. And don't take this a jab at High Elf players, but at the Book. The first part of what he said showed how much thought the opponent has to go through before he moves, picks targets to shoot, plan his charges. Really needs to think. On the other hand, HE infantry will almost never charge other infantry, (sit back and wait, very dwarfy). His only real concerns are protecting his flanks. And lets think about that a moment. Usually what charges and infantry units flanks are fast cav, or small quick moving units. What is going to happen if these types of units get a flank charge on say swordmasters? They will face 10 WS 6 STR 5 attacks most of the time. So the HE player knows that even if he does get hit in the flanks, he has a really good shot. Big trouble for other armies. So when I say "HE players will become lazy" it is because the book allows it.

Crazy Harborc
23-11-2007, 02:46
I am very tempted to march out an Empire heavy on shooting (think crossbows) army. Mortars, pistoliers, (maybe I'll get my rocket launcher ready to go).

Tomorrow (Friday), I'll be pushing 2000 points worth of Orcs and Goblins at my first 7th Edition HE army/opponent. I'll see if I can get into HtH with those heavy cav. DPs and SHs. Gotta get to charge them:eek:.......HEY, it can happen.