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Lupercal!
18-11-2007, 03:55
I'm somewhat new to 40k and I've been reading the Black Library books. It's seems like a good way to get started. Then I realized there were countless other races, so I'm slowly learning about those, too, through Wikipedia and these forums. Anyway, I have a question about the emperor and the chaos gods concerning the limit to their power.

I know the Emperor destroyed Horus when he was broken and wounded. This apparently caused the chaos gods to recoil in terror. But take this hypothetical... If the Emperor were to fight the chaos gods with everyone at their full potential, who would win? If 4 gods against 1 man is unfair, then make it the Emperor vs the strongest Chaos God.

Any information on the limits of their respective powers would help too, like if the Chaos Gods actually do fight. Thanks.

Ghilleman
18-11-2007, 05:04
Even though the emperor is widely considered as a man-God,not even he can take on teh physical manifestation of all 4 Chaos Gods at once. I'm not sure he could even take one.

Reflex
18-11-2007, 05:47
question is, would the chaos gods unite to kill him? HA!

Khorne alongside with Tzeentch... i dont think so... oh wait, what? GW changed it in the 4th ed codex so that they get along... what... how.. why.. i dont understand.. blood for the magic god? that dosnt make sense..

ramblings aside...

the Emperor is to awsome to fight the gods.. he has other things on his mind.. like dieing so he can be resurected and fight again..

sulla
18-11-2007, 06:11
Where is this hypothetical battle being fought? In the mortal universe of in the warp? It could change things, you know.

Khaine's Messenger
18-11-2007, 06:17
If the Emperor were to fight the chaos gods with everyone at their full potential, who would win?

That depends on your definition of "fight." Assuming you don't mean "fight via followers and manifestations," as is the normal case with a clash of extradimensional entities who represent somewhat abstract concepts....

He could seriously hurt one. Probably absorbing something of it into himself in the process, making you wonder if it was really worth the effort.


If 4 gods against 1 man is unfair, then make it the Emperor vs the strongest Chaos God.

Khorne can be defeated and have stuff stolen from him--the birth of Slaanesh is proof of this if you're of a mind. Although Slaanesh's birth was supported by Tzeentch and Nurgle somewhat, so I suppose that's not exactly a fair comparison.

great_wolf_1283
18-11-2007, 06:18
Right, the Emperor was (and still is) one of the most powerful Psychers in the galaxy. Can he take on one of the Chaos Gods individually. Hell yes, that's why they tend to be more than a little scared of him.

However, sometimes the Chaos Gods do unite, mostly under Tzeentch's guidance. This is invariably when Chaos is on the ascendant (such as during the 13th Black Crusade). This isn't new, it's been in the canon since I started 40k (and I'm pushing 13 years!).

Remember, during the crusade, the Astronomican was said to have dimmed, essentially showing the battle going on in the warp between the Emperor and the Chaos Gods, and they were winning. Of course, it tends to be only a matter of time before they start bickering, and the crusade falls apart.

ryng_sting
18-11-2007, 09:01
I'm somewhat new to 40k and I've been reading the Black Library books. It's seems like a good way to get started. Then I realized there were countless other races, so I'm slowly learning about those, too, through Wikipedia and these forums. Anyway, I have a question about the emperor and the chaos gods concerning the limit to their power.

I know the Emperor destroyed Horus when he was broken and wounded. This apparently caused the chaos gods to recoil in terror. But take this hypothetical... If the Emperor were to fight the chaos gods with everyone at their full potential, who would win? If 4 gods against 1 man is unfair, then make it the Emperor vs the strongest Chaos God.

Any information on the limits of their respective powers would help too, like if the Chaos Gods actually do fight. Thanks.


They withdrew from their pawn on the physical universe. The Emperor was a being of the physical universe, whereas the Chaos gods are beings of the warp.

Imperialis_Dominatus
18-11-2007, 09:26
I don't think the Emperor could take a Chaos God. Not even Slaanesh. But He could seriously hurt one. And when the Gods are at constant war with each other, if you're seriously hurt by a human weenie, another will come in and rip your throat out, absorb your essence, and become all the stronger. Perhaps strong enough to defeat the other Gods. So the Emperor threatening another God would be reason for them to unite... they hate each other, but don't want to stand the repurcussions if the metagame changes for them. Therefore, there's no way the Emperor would take out any God, or even touch them, unless Chaos worship in this realm was seriously hampered/discouraged with extreme prejudice. Which is what the Inquisition is for. :evilgrin:

The Gods, therefore, exist best how they are... constantly bickering, but each too strong to be destroyed by another, yet too weak to destroy each other. Were one God to be destroyed, the Big Gods would be three- a number known to be garbage for groups. One God would unite with another and wipe out the third, the same way groups of three tend to turn on each other. Then the war would be reduced to a battle between two- much easier to wage and predict. If one 'won,' if He wasn't already, the Emperor would be toast.

Therefore, if the Emperor weakened one God from the Chaotic pantheon, I think it's reasonable to assume that the whole thing would turn on Him in the end. He will need a lot of help in this realm to destroy the Chaos Gods, rooting out and destroying their worshippers. Which was what the Crusades were partially meant to do. But they failed, and until the Emperor is reborn and Humanity unites behind Him (no small feat in and of itself), the Chaos Gods will live and prosper. Unless we're all killed by 'Nids, Necrons, or the Orks who will respond to those threats and crush them. If that happens, Gork and Mork will obliterate the Chaos Gods and reign ascendant over a galaxy of Green.

So. Perhaps the Emperor can hurt a Chaos God, but frankly, from my view, it would be bad for Him in his current state to do so.

The_Outsider
18-11-2007, 18:38
I like ot look at it like this-

Are the chaos gods afraind of the emperor as a person? No.

Were they afraid of his vision and what it would mean for them? Yes.

If the primarch project had reached completion humanity would be much much different (i.e far superior of mind and body) and far less likely to be drawn to the temptations of the chaos gods. They themsleves would be devoid of followers, their power weould weaken.

Whether they could ever be destroyed is unknown, but they certainly could be weakened to the point where they no longer warp reality on a huge scale.

heretics bane
18-11-2007, 19:13
Well he was starving them of power when the great crusade was spreading there are no gods malarky about the place which was weakening them slightly.

It says in some fluff that i read a while ago that he is secretly protecting mankind by battling the chaos gods in the warp. and he is the MOSTpowerful human pysker to date, in the regions of alpha level++x2.

AS for a head one fight, depends if the emporer is being worshipped by untold trillions along with the chaos gods the maybe they mite just be on equal ground, he could possiblie hold them off for a very long while and maybe even severly damage them but not full on destory them.

BrotherAdso
18-11-2007, 20:09
The Emperor IS taking the Chaos gods --365 days a year, 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. He stops their baleful influence from spreading through the entire Warp, provides guidance to Human psykers who navigate it, and even protects the worthy from Daemonic attack.

Once someone leaves the physical realm, though, they can neither "take" nor be "taken" in a decisive way...there are Greater Daemons and Starchildren and Living Saints, but the Emperor is no longer a dude with a sword, nor has Khorne ever been a big red thing with an axe.

-Adso

DantesInferno
18-11-2007, 21:26
Once someone leaves the physical realm, though, they can neither "take" nor be "taken" in a decisive way...there are Greater Daemons and Starchildren and Living Saints, but the Emperor is no longer a dude with a sword, nor has Khorne ever been a big red thing with an axe.

The crux of the topic really.

The gods don't fight in the warp, except on an extremely metaphorical and abstract sense.

To take a post I made in a similar topic, the paradigm case for the various interpretations of how gods work in 40K is the Eldar Fall, where Slaanesh fought Khorne and shattered him into his Avatars.

On the first, literal interpretation, there was an actual fight between Khaine and Slaanesh in the warp. You can imagine it: an uppercut here, a bodyslam there, punch to the groin, etc.
On a more metaphoric level, there was a battle in the warp between two swirling gods, each making plans to defeat the other, throwing warp power at each other, and so on.
But on the most abstract level of all, what the GW material means when it says "Slaanesh fought Khaine" is that there was some kind of interplay between the warp vortices we refer to as Slaanesh and Khaine, which involved the former largely subsuming the latter, as a result of the various flows of emotion produced in the warp by what was actually happening in the physical universe. To the real-life inhabitants of the universe, this becomes figured as a battle in the warp between the two entities, and that's the image that gets sent on to us.

Needless to say, the latter one is what makes the most sense to me as an interpretation of what happened.

BrotherAdso
18-11-2007, 21:42
Hmmm, because the Eldar Gods may also be actual physical entities (the Old Ones), I'm not sure the Khaine v Slaanesh example is neccessarily the best one.

The 'swirling vortices' idea doesn't quite do it for me. The Chaos Gods are entities, but only in the same way that a database spread across multiple computers is an entity. To kill Khorne, you can't just find him and beat him up, you have to erase all the many places and ways he is instantiated. With each such killing, you lessen the God and its power. You can't have any hope of doing damage or even inconviencing a non-conscious vortex -- I prefer my Chaos Gods powerful, schemeing, complex, and as nigh-unstoppable as they are nigh-indecipherable...but they have to have some material link, in the way they exist, to the world that fuels them.

-Adso

DantesInferno
18-11-2007, 21:54
Hmmm, because the Eldar Gods may also be actual physical entities (the Old Ones), I'm not sure the Khaine v Slaanesh example is neccessarily the best one.

According to Eldar mythology, Khaine was sealed in the warp long before the Fall (cf. the Tears of Isha myth). So by the time of the Fall it's a bit of a moot point whether Khaine was originally a warp entity which could manifest in the physical plane, or a physical being which became a warp entity.


The 'swirling vortices' idea doesn't quite do it for me. The Chaos Gods are entities, but only in the same way that a database spread across multiple computers is an entity. To kill Khorne, you can't just find him and beat him up, you have to erase all the many places and ways he is instantiated. With each such killing, you lessen the God and its power. You can't have any hope of doing damage or even inconviencing a non-conscious vortex -- I prefer my Chaos Gods powerful, schemeing, complex, and as nigh-unstoppable as they are nigh-indecipherable...but they have to have some material link, in the way they exist, to the world that fuels them.

Well, of course they have a material link to the physical world: the stuff they're made of is warp-soul-emotion-energy, and that is a necessary by-product of sentient life in the physical universe.

As for killing Khorne, it depends what you mean by "Khorne". If you killed all the people who claimed to worship Khorne, would that be enough to kill Khorne? Perhaps it would, on one level. But on another, it wouldn't. The warp is a reflection of the emotions of realspace, so as long as people are still getting angry with each other, you're going to have an anger entity in the warp to reflect that. Is that anger entity still "Khorne"? Maybe, it depends what you mean by "Khorne".

Lupercal!
18-11-2007, 23:31
Hey guys thanks for all the great feedback. There are some observations that I've made concerning a fight between a Chaos God and the Emperor.

First, one is a physical entity and one is a spiritual entity. The fight would also depend on if the Emperor has the backing of trillions of followers worshiping him. And finally, the Chaos Gods seem to always bicker with each other so a unified fight against the Emperor seems unlikely.

However, the one piece of evidence I am aware of is the fact the Chaos Gods "recoiled in fear" once Horus was slain. Now, were the Chaos Gods afraid of the Emperor, what might happen to their plans now that their pawn was dead, or how humanity react? If in fact they were afraid of the Emperor, did they always fear him and if so, would this affect a fight against the Emperor?

Askari
19-11-2007, 11:23
I think the whole "The Chaos Gods recoiled in fear" thing is a bit... meh

They are pure emotion, so unless they were the Chaos God of fear, could they truly feel fear? I think what was more likely is that they were aware of what could happen were the Emperor's plans to succeed, they would be weakened by the "Gods don't exist" dogma of the Imperium then.

But no, the Emperor could not defeat the Chaos Gods, and though DantesInferno's explanation is probably right, I prefer the imagery of a good ol' warp daemon fistfight.

[Besides, it does state Khorne sits atop a brass throne upon skulls in a sea of blood =)]

Another note, though I am not sure as I have only heard it on forums, but wasn't there a piece saying that Tzeentch was slowly corrupting the Emperor?

The Emperor though, is as much a spiritual entity as a physical one, as he is the product of a mass-sacrifice in ancient times.

Imperialis_Dominatus
19-11-2007, 12:23
I think if you consider the Gods to be pure emotion, yes, it's kind of odd for them to fear anything... since they are not Gods of fear. However, I've always interpreted the Chaos Gods as vast torrents of emotion in the Warp which gained sentience, and thus the ability to feel something beyond their respective aspect emotions. I'll bet you could make Khorne sad... it's just really really hard to figure out what would turn his faucets on.

Like a Bloodthirster sees a starving kitten and breaks down crying. Right before he chops it in half.

Supremearchmarshal
19-11-2007, 12:25
However, the one piece of evidence I am aware of is the fact the Chaos Gods "recoiled in fear" once Horus was slain. Now, were the Chaos Gods afraid of the Emperor, what might happen to their plans now that their pawn was dead, or how humanity react? If in fact they were afraid of the Emperor, did they always fear him and if so, would this affect a fight against the Emperor?

My take on this is that the Emperor strives for pure order - the direct opposite of the Chaos Gods (order vs. chaos was a common theme in the old fluff). Also, their fear might have appeared because they were putting a lot of their power in Horus, and the Emperor might have actually destroyed that part of them, weakening them so much that they fall to a sub-sentient level (like what many minor chaos gods are) and are replaced by an new pantheon.

That said I agree with DantesInferno - as long as the thoughts and emotions that fuel the Chaos gods exist, so will they, though their strength is a different matter.

codicium_aeternum
19-11-2007, 20:32
[Besides, it does state Khorne sits atop a brass throne upon skulls in a sea of blood =)]

that must be a horrid looking throne...

can you imagine how much brasso it would take to keep it shiny in a sea of blood!

Imperialis_Dominatus
19-11-2007, 21:35
Why use brasso when you can use powdered bone? Don't ask me, it's in the fluff for some Legion or renegade Chapter or other... I'd imagine Khorne has plenty of slaves to do it for him.

KwisatchHaderach
22-11-2007, 00:00
The Emperor is in a sense fighting the Chaos Gods. His struggle on the Spiritual Plane against them is a metaphorical abstraction of the larger physical battle between the armies of the Emperor and the armies of Chaos.

chaotic
22-11-2007, 10:37
i heard that the main reason he's on the golden throne is so the gods can't get him, and would if they could. also the chaos gods are GODS Whereas the emperor is a semi-god so he is still half mortal and able to die easier, plus 4 on 1 he would get smashed (khorne would be the one who kills him though)

Taipan
22-11-2007, 10:56
Not really. Last time the Emperor faced the Chaos gods, he smashed all of them and send them packing. He's been busy ever since trying to foil Tzeentch's plans and stave off the other three. Given a new body, and his full powers (the fight with Horus really took a lot out of the Emperor), I have no doubt the Emperor would win.

Lord Malorne
22-11-2007, 11:12
everything upto to now has all been a part of the emperors master plan...even the heresy was a part of it as it allowed him to change the leadership and continue on with his own master plan...truly the emperor shall lead us to inevitable victory!

Askari
22-11-2007, 12:27
everything upto to now has all been a part of the emperors master plan...even the heresy was a part of it as it allowed him to change the leadership and continue on with his own master plan...truly the emperor shall lead us to inevitable victory!

Sounds very Tzeentchian doesn't it

;)

Bretonnian Lord
22-11-2007, 12:34
I'd say the Chaos gods would smash him... the Emperor's powerful and everything but he's still a man. Imperials just VIEW him as a God, even if he isn't.

KwisatchHaderach
22-11-2007, 12:55
The Emperor is not "just a man". He has become a being of cosmic stature whose consciousness and psychic power are spread throughout the Imperium.

Askari
22-11-2007, 13:30
No, he is but a man, he is human, the Astartes know this, so did the pre-Imperium "average" humans.

He is just the epitome of humanity.

Dominatrix
22-11-2007, 17:18
If Horus, a servant of the chaos gods almost killed the emperor, I am pretty sure any one of them could kill him without breaking a sweat. But as the chaos gods are immaterial beings residing in the warp and the emperor is a corpse on Terra I doubt they will ever meet anyway!

Agrip. Varenus Denter
22-11-2007, 17:43
For many of the reasons already stated, especially by The_Outsider - I agree that the Emperor wouldn't last very long against 4 gods.

Clockwork-Knight
22-11-2007, 17:44
They don't need to, anymore. He poses no danger to them anyway. It's the C'tan and the Tyranids who pose a far more bigger threat now to the Dark Gods of Chaos. When all life in the galaxy is either eradicated or disconnected from the Warp by the Starvampires and their deathless servants or consumed alive by the ever-hungry beasts of the Great Devourer, there won't be any emotions and worship upon which the Ruinous Powers draw their power, and then they will simply die off.

Gorbad Ironclaw
22-11-2007, 18:53
Khorne alongside with Tzeentch... i dont think so... oh wait, what? GW changed it in the 4th ed codex so that they get along... what... how.. why.. i dont understand.. blood for the magic god? that dosnt make sense..


Just a side note, but Khorne and Tzeentch have always gotten along pretty well. They don't do things the same way, but they don't hate each other either(not more than the gods normally do at least). In fact, they are frequent allies, if nothing more than because together they are more powerful than any combination of other chaos gods.

Dominatrix
22-11-2007, 21:57
True. Enmities exist between Khorne and Slaanesh (pair number one) and between Nurgle and Tzeentch (pair numbet two). It has to do with what each chaos god represents.

Maidel
22-11-2007, 22:04
NONE of the chaos gods get on particularly well.

sure Khorne HATES slaanesh - but Tzeenches use of magic isnt exactly up Khornes alley either.

and as for the putrification of nurgle compared to the beauty and alure of slaanesh - well they arent on great terms either.

Warmaster Phthisis
23-11-2007, 04:31
Woah woah woah... There are some important points that have been glazed over here.

First of all, the divinity of the Emperor is still in question in the 40k universe. The Emperor himself claimed that he wasn't a god and censured those who worshiped him as a god (anyone remember Lorgar?) The Lectio Divinatus was outlawed while the Emperor was still ambulatory at his command. There was no Ecclesiarchy in the Imperium for two milenia after the Emperor's interment in the Golden Throne until the Temple of the Savior Emperor managed to get enough support to infiltrate the Adeptus Terra and stage a coup to force the High Lords of Terra to appoint the Ecclesiarch as chairman and declair their faith to be the official religion of the Imperium of Man. After that Imperial citizens were forced to belive (and tithe) or be executed. This, of course, could all have been based more on politics than faith.

Second, although the Emperor is without a doubt the most powerful psyker that has ever existed in the human race, its not clear that he is or ever has in any way combated the dark gods of Chaos. Its not even clear that his abilities are beyond that of even the Slaan. The Emperor was definately mortal, as shown when he was almost choked to death by a giant Ork Warlord on Ullanor (before Horus intervened and saved his life).

Third, the Emperor was defeated by Horus. The Emperor was no match for Horus with the power of the Chaos Gods corsing through his veins. Horus defeated the Emperor by putting the Talon of Horus into the Emperor's gut. At the moment of his victory, the Chaos Gods no longer needed him and abandoned him. The Emperor had just enough strength to cleave the now weeping Horus in two and to destroy his soul psychically. The Emperor was definately tough enough to take a Primarch, but not one augmented by Chaos.

Fourth, the Emperor was going to 'defeat' the Chaos Gods, but not in a psychic battle. He left the Great Crusade in the hands of Horus to return to his lab in the bowels of the Imperial Palace to complete his Great Work. That Great Work was to create a sorcerous device that would have forever sealed Chaos Gods in the warp, either in the way the C'tan gods had planned or in the way the Slaan built the Webway. The Emperor was going to use science and sorcery to cut the Chaos Gods off from their food supply, and the Horus Heresy was their way of preventing that from happening.

Fifth, now that the Emperor has 'ascended' to the Golden Throne, he is little more than a gigantic navigation beacon for the Navis Nobilite to use. They feed his body souls and he focuses their psychic energy into the Astronomican. Half of the Inquisition believes that this is the most important role the Emperor has ever played, along with the whole of the Space Marine chapters and the Mechanicus. The only people who really think the Emperor to be a god are the rank and file members of the Ecclesiarchy and their under-educated over-worked flock.

Not to say that he isn't a god of course, but there is no way of knowing. There is evidence to the contrary.

Imperialis_Dominatus
23-11-2007, 05:09
Good post for a new guy. *applaud*

Though your third point must be in some earlier fluff. I have never seen that before, all the new renditions of the battle portray the Emperor holding back through love for his son, then realizing (epiphany/IF Termie death/Ollanius Pius) that Horus was long gone and obliterating him with a massive psychic attack that caused the Chaos Gods to flee lest they be damaged and the total destruction of Horus' soul. If you could direct me to a source, that'd be great.

KwisatchHaderach
23-11-2007, 05:38
First of all, the divinity of the Emperor is still in question in the 40k universe. The Emperor himself claimed that he wasn't a god and censured those who worshiped him as a god (anyone remember Lorgar?) The Lectio Divinatus was outlawed while the Emperor was still ambulatory at his command. There was no Ecclesiarchy in the Imperium for two milenia after the Emperor's interment in the Golden Throne until the Temple of the Savior Emperor managed to get enough support to infiltrate the Adeptus Terra and stage a coup to force the High Lords of Terra to appoint the Ecclesiarch as chairman and declair their faith to be the official religion of the Imperium of Man. After that Imperial citizens were forced to belive (and tithe) or be executed. This, of course, could all have been based more on politics than faith.

Divinity is a pointless distinction to make. What is clear is that the Emperor is a cosmic power who protects and guides the Imperium.

Taken from the Epic Rulebook:

"Though the Emperor is a shattered, withered creature, he still watches over and guides humankind from the restorative essences, elixirs, and billowing alchemical gases of the Golden Throne. Through his vast psychic powers, the Emperor directs the Imperium's warships through the Nightmare realm of Warp Space. He forsees the possible futures of of the Human race, and steers humanity so that it may overcome the many trials and challenges ahead."


Second, although the Emperor is without a doubt the most powerful psyker that has ever existed in the human race, its not clear that he is or ever has in any way combated the dark gods of Chaos.

It IS clear. The Emperor was created for that very purpose.


Third, the Emperor was defeated by Horus. The Emperor was no match for Horus with the power of the Chaos Gods corsing through his veins. Horus defeated the Emperor by putting the Talon of Horus into the Emperor's gut. At the moment of his victory, the Chaos Gods no longer needed him and abandoned him. The Emperor had just enough strength to cleave the now weeping Horus in two and to destroy his soul psychically. The Emperor was definately tough enough to take a Primarch, but not one augmented by Chaos.

Wrizzong. That is not actually what happened at all. The Chaos Gods abandoned Horus out of fear at the moment that the Emperor was about to destroy Horus with his psychic powers. The whole "Horus Crying" thing happened after Horus had been struck down by the Emperor and the Chaos Gods had abandoned him.


Fourth, the Emperor was going to 'defeat' the Chaos Gods, but not in a psychic battle. He left the Great Crusade in the hands of Horus to return to his lab in the bowels of the Imperial Palace to complete his Great Work. That Great Work was to create a sorcerous device that would have forever sealed Chaos Gods in the warp, either in the way the C'tan gods had planned or in the way the Slaan built the Webway. The Emperor was going to use science and sorcery to cut the Chaos Gods off from their food supply, and the Horus Heresy was their way of preventing that from happening.

What? The Emperor's "Great Project" was a webway - a device that would have allowed humans to travel without entering the warp.


Fifth, now that the Emperor has 'ascended' to the Golden Throne, he is little more than a gigantic navigation beacon for the Navis Nobilite to use. They feed his body souls and he focuses their psychic energy into the Astronomican. Half of the Inquisition believes that this is the most important role the Emperor has ever played, along with the whole of the Space Marine chapters and the Mechanicus. The only people who really think the Emperor to be a god are the rank and file members of the Ecclesiarchy and their under-educated over-worked flock.

The Emperor holds the Terran webway closed, guides humanity through the Imperial Tarot, grants miraculous powers to many of his purest followers, etc etc etc.

The Emperor isn't just some corpse on a throne - he is, for all intents and purposes, Godlike.

People need to get their crap straight.

chaotic
23-11-2007, 08:20
i doubt the emperor would be able to kill the gods anyway because it says in the chaos codex that tzeentch is the master of and controls all fate, so i doubt he would kill himself and the other gods (maybe?)
but his reason for not killing the emperor is probably some part in his great scheme

Lastie
23-11-2007, 08:24
... He forsees the possible futures of of the Human race, and steers humanity so that it may overcome the many trials and challenges ahead."

Always wondered how he does that. Does he send the occasional email to the High Lords suggesting that they send a few troops here and there? How common is the Tarot, I've only ever heard of Inquisitors carrying them?


The Emperor isn't just some corpse on a throne - he is, for all intents and purposes, Godlike.

People need to get their crap straight.

I'd be careful brandishing opinions as fact, as the background's very good at blurring it. What you see as Godlike, others like the Eldar would see a decrepid old psyker trapped in a pathetic excuse for a life support system. From their point of view, that's entirely correct. Who's opinion is inherently right? All and none, most likely.

KwisatchHaderach
23-11-2007, 08:29
I'd be careful brandishing opinions as fact, as the background's very good at blurring it. What you see as Godlike, others like the Eldar would see a decrepid old psyker trapped in a pathetic excuse for a life support system. From their point of view, that's entirely correct. Who's opinion is inherently right? All and none, most likely.

Right, because the person I was responding to wasn't brandishing opinion as fact.

elusiveintrovert
23-11-2007, 08:34
i doubt the emperor would be able to kill the gods anyway because it says in the chaos codex that tzeentch is the master of and controls all fate, so i doubt he would kill himself and the other gods (maybe?)
but his reason for not killing the emperor is probably some part in his great scheme

Tzeentch may be a master conspiritor, manipulator, and greatest all around conieving entity ever, however saying he controls all fate isn't really accurate. If he was, he would likely be the undisputed dominating force in the 40k universe. Tzeentch may have his fingers in everyones pie, and maybe able to swing things the way he wants them to go a great deal of the time, but he certainly does not get his way in every instance.

Clockwork-Knight
23-11-2007, 09:07
Tzeentch doesn't care that the plans suceed or fail, the only thing that matters is that there is a never-ending amount of schemes into schemes.

Yeah, it's been said so now in the latest Chaos Space Marines Codex.

Gorbad Ironclaw
23-11-2007, 10:37
Maybe Tzeentch could be the master of the 40k universe, but perhaps it doesn't suit his goals to be so? He thrives on scheming and trickery and hope and wishes for the further, and first and foremost, change. He isn't bothered by the success of each individual scheme, the act of scheming is what's important, not whatever you succeed or not. In fact, Tzeentch might be diminished if he was ever to actually control the whole galaxy, as it would eliminate a lot of the tension and politics and scheming etc. Tzeentch is about the process, not the goal.
Doesn't make the best patron as for his followers the goal is important, but there you have it.

eleveninches
23-11-2007, 11:27
I remember reading a while ago, I was reading some book that stated that the chaos gods could not hope to truely defeat the emperor. Also, they recognised that the emperor with 20 primarchs at his side would be a force that would be unstoppable, and not even the chaos gods would be able to stop them

Warmaster Phthisis
24-11-2007, 00:32
Kwis-

Read my post again. I wasn't saying that the Emperor wasn't a god, just that the fact is obscured by GW's fluff. I think you even agreed with me there on point #3 and didn't even notice.

Old-fluff, new fluff, all fluff is written from perspective. It is never written in an omniscient tense. Most fluff is written from the perspective of the Imperium, namely an Imperial servant of some sort (Inquisitor, Officer, Administrator). They are all required to believe the Emperor is a god so the fluff from their perspective all claims that he his a god. If you read fluff written from the perspective of a Space Marine, AdMech, Alien, or Chaos Cultist they don't say the Emperor is a god. People make up their own mind and then choose the fluff that supports their oppinion to believe retroactively. That's one of the cool things about the 40k fluff, there are so many perspectives!

Dominatus- My third point may be based in old fluff.. they have been changing and refining the story of the Hours Heresy all throughout the lifetime of 40k. That's how I remember the story, but the Horus Heresy art books seemed to change the story a bit and now so is the novel series. Actually, I have a couple copys of books from RT where Space Marines aren't superhuman (just psychotic brainwashed punks with guns), there were no Primarchs, and Rainbow Legion roamed across the galaxy protecting the environment... Kwis should pay attention. The story of the shamans committing mass suicide to create a super-human is a story that is at least as old as Zoats and has been alluded to by GW fluff far less often.

chaotic
24-11-2007, 03:11
eleveninches: don't forget that some of the primarch turned or have turned traitor or have died at some point or another

Askari
24-11-2007, 10:52
Right, because the person I was responding to wasn't brandishing opinion as fact.

That's an excuse for you to do the same?

Antikaratekid
24-11-2007, 13:49
the emperor could kill them all one by one easy but if they were to gang up... he might have some trouble but still win, possibly by dying in the process

Askari
24-11-2007, 14:36
the emperor could kill them all one by one easy but if they were to gang up... he might have some trouble but still win, possibly by dying in the process

Care to explain why you think that? I be curious, because the Chaos Gods rarely do gang up, but the Emperor hasn't beaten them yet has he? He didn't even beat Horus without losing pretty much everything.

captain rekez
24-11-2007, 17:37
Askari speaks many wise words ( :D ) as if the 4 gods did band together to destroy the emperor they would be able to easily,killl him, mabey even a deamon primarch would be able to kill him as horus wasnt a deamon primarch in full, even though horus died he nearly killed the emperor, leaving him in his golden throne thats basicaly a life support system, and is this what the gods wanted? for the emperor to be immobilised for a milenium?

Imperialis_Dominatus
24-11-2007, 20:12
Eh... the Emperor 'lost everything' because he was silly enough to think there was humanity yet in Horus. He was holding back and taking blow after blow. Yet another mistake chalked up for the Emperor. If he'd have just torn Horus apart and destroyed his Warp essence in the first place, the story would be a lot different. Somewhat boring, what with all the humans around with nothing to fight except each other... :evilgrin:

Askari
24-11-2007, 20:17
Eh... the Emperor 'lost everything' because he was silly enough to think there was humanity yet in Horus.

Still makes him weak doesn't it, his emotions :p

Imperialis_Dominatus
24-11-2007, 20:28
Depends on what one sees as strong and weak. In that situation, and far too many others, his emotions led to mistakes. But to err is human, and to forgive is divine... he forgave Horus in the end IIRC, so thus the question of his godhood is answered by conventional wisdom! Of course! Haha!

Er. Anyway.

I suppose it depends on if one is outcome-based or process-based. Do the ends justify the means? Not that I'm taking a side, it's just a question. The Emperor could have afforded to be a little less trusting, half-full thinker, negligent to his sons, etc. But if he strayed too far the other way, what's to stop him becoming like Horus, only worse due to his greater power?

Supremearchmarshal
24-11-2007, 20:45
Somewhat boring, what with all the humans around with nothing to fight except each other... :evilgrin:

Which would fuel the warp with strong emotions, and allow other entities to fully awaken/rise in power and become a new chaos pantheon (e.g. Chaos gods of Boredom and Loitering:D).

Oh, and if the Emperor killed Horus immediately he would have denied the Terminator/Custode/Guardsman his moment of glory, and that would be just anti-climatic, wouldn't it? ;)

Askari
24-11-2007, 21:23
Which would fuel the warp with strong emotions, and allow other entities to fully awaken/rise in power and become a new chaos pantheon (e.g. Chaos gods of Boredom and Loitering:D).

Would those Chaos Gods be called Chav and Yob? :p

Dakkagor
24-11-2007, 22:28
I remember reading a while ago, I was reading some book that stated that the chaos gods could not hope to truely defeat the emperor. Also, they recognised that the emperor with 20 primarchs at his side would be a force that would be unstoppable, and not even the chaos gods would be able to stop them


Agreed. Otherwise, why would the chaos gods seek to oppose or corrupt the primarchs at every step? Because with them the emperor could bring light, understand and final peace to the galaxy, and in doing so starve the chaos gods conventionally, rather than needing to build some kind of sealing system for the warp.