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Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-11-2007, 20:52
Right, question about Doctor Who, and help is very much needed....

In the new series, the Timelords are no more due to the Timewar. It is mentioned several times that the Doctor, in destroying Skaro, also, rather carelessly, managed to knack Galifrey as well.

So, was this, or was this not, the result of the use of the Hand of Omega, in the Sylvester McCoy story Remembrance of the Daleks?

I'm very confused about all this!

Shadowseer Crofty
18-11-2007, 21:10
I thought the time war was after the movie, before McGann regenerated into Ecclestone?

ArtificerArmour
18-11-2007, 21:12
Yes, it was after the death of the master, when he was reessurected as a super soldier for the forces of the Time lords. He then decided to run off like a pansy.

Kordos
18-11-2007, 21:21
The big bad time war that keeps on getting mentioned is something new to the Doctor Who universe, there have been several time wars but the one the new doc's keep mentioning is something Russle T Davis has come up with
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_War_(Doctor_Who)

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-11-2007, 21:31
So, how the hell did Skaro survive getting knacked off the Hand of Omega?

And where the hell is the Tinpot Dictator Davros?

I'm confused!

Kordos
18-11-2007, 21:41
So, how the hell did Skaro survive getting knacked off the Hand of Omega?

And where the hell is the Tinpot Dictator Davros?

I'm confused!

you'll have to ask Russel T Davis, probably along with a lot of dr who fans who want him to stop messing with the continuity

Shadowseer Crofty
18-11-2007, 21:54
you'll have to ask Russel T Davis, probably along with a lot of dr who fans who want him to stop messing with the continuity

you do realise he has an excuse for anything continuity related "The past got changed during the time war/by the daleks thus causing the time war"

Mad Doc Grotsnik
18-11-2007, 21:59
But, those flappy Demon things come along and chin everyone if theres a change in the past, isn't there?

Gah....time to go watch another video I guess!

Kordos
18-11-2007, 22:04
you do realise he has an excuse for anything continuity related "The past got changed during the time war/by the daleks thus causing the time war"

yup, doesn't stop people complaining about it though

Karhedron
18-11-2007, 22:05
In the new series, the Timelords are no more due to the Timewar. It is mentioned several times that the Doctor, in destroying Skaro, also, rather carelessly, managed to knack Galifrey as well.
I do not think that the 7th Doctor actually destroyed Gallifrey. Remember in the TVM, the 8th Doctor showed Grace Gallifrey and seemed to be talking about it in the present tense. I think that the destruction of Skaro was probably the opening salvo in the Time War and eventually led to the Daleks nuking Gallifrey in retaliation.

Although I suppose in a war between two temporal civilisations, you go further back and argue that the Time Lord intervention in "Genesis of the Daleks" was the opening of cold war at least.


So, how the hell did Skaro survive getting knacked off the Hand of Omega?

And where the hell is the Tinpot Dictator Davros?

I'm confused!
I think it is best to treat the TVM lightly when it comes to canon (and comments about Skaro).

If you want to find out about the fate of Davros, check out "Terror Firma" from Big Finish. Basically Davros loses whatever vestiges of humanity (Kaledity?) he had left and evolves into his own creation. He becomes a true Dalek and is annointed Emperor. It is strongly hinted that this is the same Emperor seen in "Parting of the Ways".

Check out Big Finish below.

http://www.bigfinish.com/72-doctor-who---terror-firma-109-p.asp

Grimtuff
19-11-2007, 20:37
I think that the destruction of Skaro was probably the opening salvo in the Time War and eventually led to the Daleks nuking Gallifrey in retaliation.


Correct. They retconned it a bit with the "Rememberance of the Daleks" episodes being the part that kicked off the Time War.

They mention it in one of the cannot-decide-if-it's-an-episode-guide-or-background-books (Monsters and Villains IIRC) that coincide with the newer series.

The pestilent 1
19-11-2007, 20:52
Isn't Davros back next season?

And do bear in mind that Doc who seems to follow the "sentient continuum" Time travel theory.
the reason the other doctors never noticed Torchwood is because it didn't exist until the tenth doctor showed up, and barring a few Cross universe coinkydinks (five Doctors for example) it pretty fairly holds up.

Icarus
20-11-2007, 02:10
So, how the hell did Skaro survive getting knacked off the Hand of Omega?

And where the hell is the Tinpot Dictator Davros?

I'm confused!

Two possibilities on Skaro:

1. Skaro WAS destroyed by the Seventh Doctor, and was a precipitating event in the Time War (although not the first causal factor, possibly the most significant). The part where the Doctor destroyed the Time Lords and the Daleks didn't involve Skaro at all IIRC, merely the complete elimination of the Daleks and their fleet (or so the Doctor thought) so its destruction doesn't cause a problem here.

2. Not canon - but there was a Dr Who novel where the Daleks changed time themselves in order to prevent Skaro from being destroyed. This would have left it able to be destroyed again by the Doctor.

I'm pretty sure its the first one though. There's nothing to suggest the destruction of Skaro was the same event as the destruction of Gallifrey.

As for Davros, wouldn't be surprised if we see him at some point. After all, Dalek Caan doesn't seem likely to be able to rebuild the race by himself.

ArtificerArmour
20-11-2007, 02:54
But wasn't the docotr charged with anhialating the Daleks, and right upto the point of doing it he wussed out?

This is the Dalek's, the most hated and feared race in the universe, and even the Doctor couldn't bring himself to do it. Yes, after the time war he could, but not to begin the Time War.

El Presedente
20-11-2007, 07:50
Lets not forget that both races could travel through time, its odvious that the time lords went back to before skaro was destroyed in Rememberance and destroy it again, thus weakening their power down the time line.

See easy.

Typheron
20-11-2007, 11:50
The way i always figured it was that the destruction of Skarro was when the cold war went "hot" and everything up to that point a lot of a lot of time traveling and screwing with history on both sides in an attempt to make a war more winable for either side.

Eventually for whatever reason the Daleks ammassed there forces and attacked Galifray directly at which point battle was joinned and a huge rumble occurred in the Galifray system.

With all the Daleks in one place alongside the Time Lords the Dr puts his plan to end it all into motion and (insert techobabble here) wipes out the Dalek fleet as mentioned in "Dalek" the entire fleet was ablaze.

However the uber bit of whatever he used was not contained to just the Dalek fleet and Promptly wiped both Civilisations out of time itself while at the same time giving the Dr a northern accent.

Best guess the Tardis and the Dr were at the centre of whatever he did thus leaving them protected by being in the eye of the storm.

Clearly the Uber weapon was the Fabled "plotholium ultimatum" a superweapon so deadly that its effects can be felt in other realities where logic and causality cease to function due to its use by the Dr.

Mad Doc Grotsnik
20-11-2007, 22:27
Okay. More or less with you now (though I think my nose bleed....Wibblywobbly, timeywimey, to coin a phrase)

So, other than The Master (who seemingly did buck the kicket) and the The Rani, has there been anything about Romana? I only mention it, because I watched a story the other day, and it was mentioned she remained behind in N Space.

Thus, should the Doctor figure out a way back, which is easy enough, nip back in time, onto the bridge of that ship, kidnap Adric (horrible, whiney little git that he is) and use his calculations. Best bit is, since nobody actually saw for sure that Adric died in the crash, it's entirely feasible he was saved by a future Doctor.....

Icarus
20-11-2007, 23:13
Pretty sure Romana is dead. They're all dead. Although feasibly there could be *another* Time Lord hidden away in a Chameleon Arch, it seems a bit far fetched. I think with the demise of the Master thats it. They could maybe bring the Rani back but it would be a bit lame. She was never a particularly interesting character.

But if Romana, or Susan, or any other Time Lord close to the Doctor could have been saved, I'm sure he would have done so by now. I odn't think being in N-Space would be enough to escape the Time War.

El Presedente
21-11-2007, 07:33
I odn't think being in N-Space would be enough to escape the Time War.

Actually she became president of Gallefrey, this was in the books (where she turned bad) and the audios, it may be non-cannon, but she was mentioned as being president in the first of the 2005 annual.

TheSonOfAbbadon
21-11-2007, 12:18
Best guess the Tardis and the Dr were at the centre of whatever he did thus leaving them protected by being in the eye of the storm.

That works with hurricanes and ONLY hurricanes. If you stand next to a grenade, you aren't protected because you're in 'the eye of the storm'.

It's more likely he ran off, he can travel through time, you know.

The pestilent 1
21-11-2007, 12:22
That works with hurricanes and ONLY hurricanes. If you stand next to a grenade, you aren't protected because you're in 'the eye of the storm'.

It's more likely he ran off, he can travel through time, you know.

It's impossible to time travel too, sorry to say. :rolleyes:

TheSonOfAbbadon
21-11-2007, 12:44
Says you.

Einstein disagrees. :p

Icarus
21-11-2007, 13:18
Yeah but who do you fear more, Pesty or a dead guy?

The pestilent 1
21-11-2007, 13:47
Says you.

Einstein disagrees. :p

I don't think he does, Relativity prevents it in fact :p
(We cannot achieve the speeds required to travel through time)

On that note.

There once was a man named Brite, who could travel much faster than light.
He left one day, in a relativistic way, and returned the previous night.

Typheron
21-11-2007, 14:12
what if the weapon was a temporal hurricane device, what then?

In short we dont know, as it could be any number of sci-fi cliches he used. I just like my temporal hurricane idea, ive named it Bob.

Technically were all traveling slowly forwards in time, and its a TV show, like it matters whats possable.

Wintermute
21-11-2007, 18:36
So, how the hell did Skaro survive getting knacked off the Hand of Omega?


Simple.

Skaro was not destroyed by the Hand Of Omega. (IIRC the Daleks had moved the planet elsewhere).

Its explained in one of the Doctor Who novels.

El Presedente
21-11-2007, 19:58
Its explained in one of the Doctor Who novels.

War of the Daleks, its geekocentric levels touched a 9.5 on the geekomiter.

BigRob
26-11-2007, 13:31
Wow, I just thought the Time war was started by the Dr's destruction of Skaro (you can see Davros leave his mothership in an escape pod before its destroyed in Rememberance). This escalates to involve teh whole universe (who hate the Daleks anyway). Notable exception being the Cybermen (Who McCoy wiped out in the next episode, Silver Nemesis).

On that note, the special metal used in the Nemesis Statue is one of the weapons used by the Time Lords. A statue sized piece destroyed the entire Cyber Fleet, so imagine what the Timelords stockepile might do if it went off....

UltimateNagash
26-11-2007, 14:08
I figure it goes something like this:
Skaro gets destroyed by Hand of Omega
Last straw for Daleks, they formalise the Time War, get all their Goldsmiths etc and go into the Vortex
The Time Lords fight back
Doctor blows them all up, and regenerates. (I figure he uses the Eye of Harmony, but is in the Eye of the Storm. And although you say doesn't work the same way, it's a Time Vortex thing. Massive temporal WINDS, thereby works similar principle)...
Also what destroyed the Master's TARDIS - he was protected because he was human at the time...

Oh, and the 8th movie Dalek bit is a peace-treaty negotiation thing in it that goes wrong in the end, considering the Master gets killed.

And the Master returning? New body, same mind.
I figure that Time Lords can't actually get new Regenerations: they can get a new body with their mind put in it, or the Time Lords can give another creature a Time Lord body, but the 12 Regenerations is a limit...

And the Romana bit? Well, not traumatic because she triggered it herself, and those were future visions she was using to see what she thought...



Oh, and completely unrelated, but I have a semi theory on non-teleportation, but moving like the TARDIS throughout space thing.
Is everywhere at once and then one place - not teleporting, but just existing there.
Somewhat weird, but I feel it works in that kind of universe...



Oh dear, I'm a nerd/geek... :D