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Dr Cuddles
18-11-2007, 22:29
Few questions.

1. What are the chances of a chaos god more powerful then Khorne, Nurgle, etc existing?

2. What are the chances of alternate universes?

3. Is there such thing as time travel, or at least, time manipulation in 40k?

satormortis
18-11-2007, 22:54
1. Very unlikely. Chaos has the big four, and there are plenty of lesser Chaos gods, but a Chaos god existing that is more powerful than the big four is pretty unlikely. Basically, we'd have heard about it by now if it would've existed.

2. Depends on how you define alternate universes.. The Warp provides plenty of alternate realities, so to speak, and very powerful psykers could probably create some sort of limited alternate galaxy.

3. Travelling forward in time and slowing time down/stopping it completely are very common with warp travel and psyker tricks. As is seeing the future, etc. Travelling backwards is mostly - if not completely - impossible, though. There are some obscure references about ships arriving at their destination before their departure, but I don't think anyone's ever travelled backwards on purpose. I very much prefer to think it's impossible. Once a sf setting introduces backwards time travel all believability goes out of the window.

Rabid Bunny 666
18-11-2007, 23:03
Few questions.

1. What are the chances of a chaos god more powerful then Khorne, Nurgle, etc existing?

2. What are the chances of alternate universes?

3. Is there such thing as time travel, or at least, time manipulation in 40k?

2) The Necrons have accessed alternate Universes to power their techno-rape technology.

3) As above, the Necrons can slow down time (anitem available to Necron Lords called the Chrononmetron describes the Lord's item slowing down time)

swordwind
18-11-2007, 23:06
It depends if you view Chaos Undivided as a god itself or a pantheon.

Khaine's Messenger
19-11-2007, 00:00
1. What are the chances of a chaos god more powerful then Khorne, Nurgle, etc existing?

Depends on your interpretation of the cosmology, but generally low.


2. What are the chances of alternate universes?

Again, depends on your interpretation of the cosmology. The Warp is seen by some as a host of limitless potential, a gateway to many continuities...that this isn't exploited by anyone in the 40k authorship is rather telling, though. Most stories of 40k tend to want to stay in-house because there's plenty enough variety and lies in the core setting to explore that alternate universes would come across as rather silly.


3. Is there such thing as time travel (...) in 40k?

Yes, there is such a thing. However, no one really has it down to a science, and since the main group with awareness of these methods are the Harlequins and some of the more powerful Farseers (hint: it involves the webway), it's quite likely that you're not going to be able to do it unless you were supposed to do it. Much head-hurting ensues.

Noserenda
19-11-2007, 00:22
1. What are the chances of a chaos god more powerful then Khorne, Nurgle, etc existing?


VII



2. What are the chances of alternate universes?


Plenty, the Warp, Necrontyr Handwavium, The Kage-verse (:angel:)



3. Is there such thing as time travel, or at least, time manipulation in 40k?

Yes, but its plotagenic, Jaq Draco may possibly have done it for example but yes, travelling backwards in time does tend to destroy all credibility in Sci fi, unless its the focus of the show.

Icarus
19-11-2007, 01:18
On backwards time travel, its very rare and maybe impossible however:

1. Some ships may have had warp jumps that caused them to arrive before they left.
2. There are rumoured to be lost sections of the Webway where time slows, stops completely or can even go backwards.
3. Eldrad's communication to the Emperor warning him about the heresy *MAY* have been a psychic projection into the past. This is mostly conjecture however.

Noserenda
19-11-2007, 01:20
3. Eldrad's communication to the Emperor warning him about the heresy *MAY* have been a psychic projection into the past. This is mostly conjecture however.

Nah hes was there, and hes infinity billion years old, saw it all coming and still failed to achive anything :p Kinda makes you think maybe he wanted it to happen... :eek:

DarkSoldier
19-11-2007, 01:50
Kinda makes you think maybe he wanted it to happen... :eek:
How did the Heresy affect the Eldar civilization? Eldrad did start the Second War of Armageddon in order to save a few thousand Eldar lives. I wouldn't put it past him if failing to do it endangered more Eldar than otherwise.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
19-11-2007, 02:26
travelling backwards in time does tend to destroy all credibility in Sci fi, unless its the focus of the show.

Not always, but there has to be a reason why everyone can't run around doing it, look at Star Trek, numerous plots have revolved around time travel, the movie one (the voyage home?), Deep Space 9 Episode (Trials and Tribbleations) and a quite a few Voyager episodes. Superman does it a couple of times. And with the exception of Superman they were credible (imo, that's subjective I know).

In order for it to be done in the 40k universe there would have to be a reason why you can't just run about doing it all the time, but if you could justify that then there are a few examples in the fluff of it occuring.

ps travelling back in time would in my mind be more acheivable than travelling forward in time (more than 1s/s) because the past is there but the future is not yet created.

PPS as to alternate universes, the multiverse is a concept used in many, many works of fiction yet in all it is handled differently, it would be interesting to do but again you'd have to say why it doesn't happen all the time (in fact you might say it does happen all the time and people cross dimensions but the imperium is so big that nobody notices). Personally I like to see the warp as a universe that is the direct opposite of the materium and there are varying dimensions inbetween.

satormortis
19-11-2007, 04:12
Bob Plisskin;2106452']Not always, but there has to be a reason why everyone can't run around doing it, look at Star Trek, numerous plots have revolved around time travel, the movie one (the voyage home?), Deep Space 9 Episode (Trials and Tribbleations) and a quite a few Voyager episodes. Superman does it a couple of times. And with the exception of Superman they were credible (imo, that's subjective I know).

Interesting. Never met anyone who thought the time travelling in Star Trek was credible before.



ps travelling back in time would in my mind be more acheivable than travelling forward in time (more than 1s/s) because the past is there but the future is not yet created.

Travelling forward in time is rather easy, relatively speaking. Just enter a place in the warp where time doesn't pass/passes very slowly, and get out of that place a hundred 'real' years later. No time will have passed for you, yet a hundred years have passed for everybody else. Welcome to the future.

Inquisitor Engel
19-11-2007, 04:58
Chaos gods are as real as the necron gods (the C'tan) there are even special modes for the gods i think

Chaos Gods are real, but only in the sense that they exist as entities within the warp, they're significantly different, but distinctly as real as the C'tan. That said, one could, arguably, define the C'tan as more real because they exist as corporeal beings, whereas the Chaos Gods exist purely because the corporeal universe does.

Were some gigantic plague to wipe out all sentient life in the galaxy, the Chaos Gods would wither and die, whereas the C'tan would probably abandon their Necrondermi and go feed on stars again.

Then again, the C'tan fall into the same 'god' category as the Emperor originally did, a being originally of the universe, but venerated by lesser beings for their power. The Eldar Gods, depending on your interpretation of their nature, can also fall into this category. (Personally I see them as ascended Old Ones, but that's just me)


alternate universes are located in the eye of terror...(like WFB is said to be)

No, they are not.

Strictly speaking, the Warp is not an 'alternate-reality' it's simply an alternate plane of existence, not another universe. It lays on top/within the material universe - there are descriptions of the warp from the inside of a ship, being able to see 'shadows' of planetary bodies and systems, though much closer together.


time travel is definatley possible as necrons achieved it and so did eldar i think!

The Eldar did not, otherwise we'd be playing in a very different universe. Why bother seeing the future to prevent it when you can just go back and fix it later? There's also significant evidence in the Eldar scrying methods that it's not possible to travel back in time because of the idea of 'multiple-futures,' by extension and M-Theory, each each one of any possible future restults in a true alternate reality, though none can access them with any technology we're aware of. (It's the 40k universe, not the multi-verse after all.)

The Warp has done some weird things, but not quite like that, mainly because the Dev Team is aware of what a cock-and-bull effort it would be to keep things even as remotely consistent to what what it is now (and that ain't much).

There ARE cases of people arriving much later than they left off - there's actually a spreadsheet in the Lenton offices, based on time and actual light-year measured from Terra on how long it takes in warp-time and real time to get there. It's obviously based on smooth sailing and people do get lost in storms.

Imagine getting lost in a storm at sea and showing up a week late to your port. Warp travel is exactly the same, though when you get lost for that week, the world turns a year. It's like the theory of relativity on crack.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
19-11-2007, 05:21
Interesting. Never met anyone who thought the time travelling in Star Trek was credible before.

HA! Well it's pretty difficult to say anything is incredible in sci-fi (well everything is incredible that's the point!). But yeah, Star Trek science is no less credible to me than anything written by say Dick, Asimov or Herbert.



Travelling forward in time is rather easy, relatively speaking. Just enter a place in the warp where time doesn't pass/passes very slowly, and get out of that place a hundred 'real' years later. No time will have passed for you, yet a hundred years have passed for everybody else. Welcome to the future.

Not really time travel though, just altering your perception of time. Time still flows around you but you just cant interact with it, sort of like being in stasis or something.



That said, one could, arguably, define the C'tan as more real because they exist as corporeal beings, whereas the Chaos Gods exist purely because the corporeal universe does.

When a daemon manifests in the materium it is the god itself in the material realm albeit a small part, it is an avatar of the God. So Chaos Gods can 'theoretically' exist in the materium.



Strictly speaking, the Warp is not an 'alternate-reality' it's simply an alternate plane of existence, not another universe. It lays on top/within the material universe - there are descriptions of the warp from the inside of a ship, being able to see 'shadows' of planetary bodies and systems, though much closer together.


There are many varying descriptions of the warp in GW literature, I like to believe, like the Chaos Gods themselves the warp is shaped by the person viewing it, if you expect to see some semblace of planets, then you do. If you expect to see a mass of swirling colours with bloodletters trying to rip out your throat, then you do. I don't think we could say with any certainty that the warp isn't another universe / alternate reality. Plane of existence is a concept I find difficult to comprehend.

Chilltouch
19-11-2007, 05:50
How did the Heresy affect the Eldar civilization? Eldrad did start the Second War of Armageddon in order to save a few thousand Eldar lives. I wouldn't put it past him if failing to do it endangered more Eldar than otherwise.

It gave Chaos the most powerful physical force they could possibly want, instead on having to rely on meager cultists here and there. Probably thousands - if not millions of Eldar died at the hands of the Chaos Space Marines or the results of their existence.

MrBigMr
19-11-2007, 08:59
1. Gork & Mork. They'll kick every Chaos god they want.
2. I'd say pretty high. The Umbra are said to exsist in multible universes at the same time and I think there's some stuff about the Hrud being from an alternative universe as well. Not to forget the Necron stuff phasing out of reality, but somehow I think it has something to do with the void between the Warp and real space.
3. Warp is a pretty tricky place where things can get lost and time moves differently. So in that way, time travel is possible, but I doubt some weird machine will take you from time to time.

TheBigBadWolf
19-11-2007, 12:24
I would say its not really time travel more of a distortion, like when a fleet appears 200 years after they are dispatched but to them no time has passed at all. I dont think ive seen anyone go back in time apart from horus in the HH books.

Supremearchmarshal
19-11-2007, 12:54
A Chaos God more powerful than the big four could happen (or have happened!), but there'd have to be a really huge cataclysm - bigger than the fall. Some old fluff mentioned that had Horus succeeded a fifth, immensely powerful Chaos god would have been born. Also, it is theoretically possible that other galaxies have their version of the Warp and its gods.

Time travel happens all the time - I remember it being specifically stated in a old WD that less time passes for the ships when they're traveling in the Warp than does in "real" space (usually...).

Iuris
19-11-2007, 13:21
1. What are the chances of a chaos god more powerful then Khorne, Nurgle, etc existing?

Given the egos of the four we already know about, I'd say if there were one in existence, we'd have heard of it by now.


2. What are the chances of alternate universes?

Only mentioned in context of teleportation and FTL travel as places where the object transported goes for the short travel time. The Warp is definitely an alternate universe, and some obscure reference claims the Necron FTL travel methos uses an alternative universe that is not the Warp. Beyond those, however, no mention of alternative universe has been noted.


3. Is there such thing as time travel, or at least, time manipulation in 40k?
Fast forward: all the time as stasis technology. Rewind: none observed in action. However, there is a mention of suh things: in Harlequin background, it mentions that they know the secrets of the Webway noone else does, including a "Crossroad where time flows backwards". In Ravenor rogue, an inquisitor is possibly sent into a future world where he's supposed to be eaten by tyranids as a trap, however, he manages to return. Beyond that, noe that I know of.

Askari
19-11-2007, 13:54
1. As others have said, if there was one, we'd know about it.

2. I don't know, and neither do I care, it'd mess everything up. I'm happy with my Physical Universe, Warp, Necron Phase place, and the Tyranids' little corner of Warp.

3. Time manipulation, kind of, happens in the Eye of Terror, that being when a Chaos Marine dies, there's a chance he'll come back out of the Eye a 1000 years later, 200 years younger than when he died. But it's completely random, like most things about the Warp.

Captain Stern
19-11-2007, 17:23
Originally Posted by Vlad Von Carstein
time travel is definatley possible as necrons achieved it and so did eldar i think!


Originally Posted by Inquisitor Engel: The Eldar did not, otherwise we'd be playing in a very different universe. Why bother seeing the future to prevent it when you can just go back and fix it later? There's also significant evidence in the Eldar scrying methods that it's not possible to travel back in time because of the idea of 'multiple-futures,' by extension and M-Theory, each each one of any possible future restults in a true alternate reality, though none can access them with any technology we're aware of. (It's the 40K universe, not the multi-verse after all.)


Vlad is partly right... to an extent:


The warpgates bound the Eldar together as a single civilization, stretching accross their spacee and, or so it was theorized, backwards and forwards in time. The Eldar, fearful of the consequences, never experimented with the temporal aspect of the warpgates.
- Slaves to Darkness

Inquisitor Engel
20-11-2007, 03:21
Again, just because one can doesn't mean one does. ;)

I also don't think there would have been any need, even for Pre-Fall Eldar to go back and forth in time - first, the Eldar see the future as possibilities and with reincarnation occuring to every Eldar soul, it's not like they can't find a dead relative they'd like to talk to.

I just don't think the Eldar would be unwise enough to mess with time retroactively. Also the current background points to the Warp Gate system being built by the Old Ones before their disappearance, rather than originally by the Eldar - the Eldar now (and even then) might well have been unaware of the potential of the system at their disposal...

Captain Stern
20-11-2007, 04:10
Again, just because one can doesn't mean one does. ;)

Which arguably makes humanity superior. Humanity is more curious and therefore in a position to eventually surpass the Eldar in all things - barring any more catastrophes of course (like fumbling around with time travel...).


Also the current background points to the Warp Gate system being built by the Old Ones before their disappearance, rather than originally by the Eldar - the Eldar now (and even then) might well have been unaware of the potential of the system at their disposal...

Actually it seems to be the reverse. Slaves to Darkness has the Eldar perfecting it...

Inquisitor Engel
20-11-2007, 05:37
Which arguably makes humanity superior. Humanity is more curious and therefore in a position to eventually surpass the Eldar in all things - barring any more catastrophes of course (like fumbling around with time travel...).

I'd say humanity has little innovation left in it, given the stagnation of technology within the Imperium, they rely on something created by a much smarter, much better, humanity from thousands of years prior to the Great Crusade. STC's are almost assuredly a step forward by taking two steps back.

I'd say the Tau are more likely to become the greatest technological race. The only barrier they have yet to break is warp travel and that's more of an annoyance. I wouldn't be surprised if the Tau are working out other long distance travel methods such as FTL or something akin to the interia-less drives the Necrons use. Either that or they could just start using the Niccasar (space polar bears!) as Navigators at last...

It's more of a plot device that keeps the Tau in there little area of space that they're pre-occupied with emulating everyone else. I think a crashed Necron ship might yield some interesting results...

But I digress - The Adeptus Mechanicus doesn't take risks, the Earth Caste clearly does, as long as its for the Greater Good. Going fruther surely must be.



Actually it seems to be the reverse. Slaves to Darkness has the Eldar perfecting it...

Ah, but perfection is such a loaded word - perhaps "removed the potential for abuse" could fall under that umbrella?

I don't doubt the Eldar improved it, but given the potential for abuse that temporal "inconsistencies" could create, removing it could well be spun as "perfection."

Oelitto
21-11-2007, 22:30
1. Khorne is the overall big-one, but on occiasion Others can be temporary more powerful Nugle with great plagues, Tzeentch when it's great plan comes into fruit. Chaos codex '96

2. already been answered.

3. It is Tzeentch that holds the Warp outside of normal space time, Chaos Codex '96

Askari
21-11-2007, 23:13
1. Khorne is the overall big-one, but on occiasion Others can be temporary more powerful Nugle with great plagues, Tzeentch when it's great plan comes into fruit. Chaos codex '96

Tzeentch is often regarded the most powerful Chaos God these days, though it does vary, but it is usually,

Khorne/Tzeentch
Nurgle
Slaanesh

Gorbad Ironclaw
22-11-2007, 07:18
He is?

As I remember it, there was a pretty clear ranking of them at least in previous books.

Khorne being the most powerful.
Tzeentch being second. But Tzeentch and Khorne would frequently ally, as together they were more powerful than any combination of the other gods.
Nurgle being third, although at times when great plagues were lose, his power would grow as an epidemic and would briefly outshine all the others.
Slaanesh, being the youngest is also the least powerful of the 4 brothers.

Captain Gawain
22-11-2007, 07:22
Tzeentch is often regarded the most powerful Chaos God these days, though it does vary, but it is usually,

Khorne/Tzeentch
Nurgle
Slaanesh

I really believe that saying any one of the big four is more powerful than the other is subjective.

On a planet riven by war, Khorne would laugh on his throne of skulls, however, on a world subjected to a plague, Nurgle is definately the top dog.

A god's power is given to him by his worshippers.