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Samurai33
19-11-2007, 08:42
Quick question. Would there be any restrictions, fluffwise or logical, to having my DYI chapter using the geneseed from the Imp fist if I fluff them to have been created in one of the last few foundings?

Thanks.

ctsteel
19-11-2007, 08:59
fluffwise the fists have a couple of defective marine organs - the acidic/poison spit gland (bechers?) and the sus-an ones I think. Neither of those will affect your army composition or modelling though so is not an issue.

Other than that I can't think of any reason they would be different, the Imp fists have had several successors (crimson fists, soul drinkers and others) so is perfectly fine in that respect.

Samurai33
19-11-2007, 09:18
Thanks for the quick answer. Now what I remain slightly unclear about on the whole founding issue...do all new chapters recieve their geneseed from one of the original loyalist chapters ie Imp fist or Ultras, or can they get their seed from later founded chapters like Crimson fists or can't-think-of-any-ultra-based-new-chapters-but-you-know-what-I-mean?

McMullet
19-11-2007, 09:52
All chapters pay a "tithe" of geneseed to the Adeptus Mechanicus - I believe that it it this that is used to found new chapters. So, the Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Black Templars and so on will all send a proportion of the geneseed back for use in forming new chapters.

The fact that the Ultramarines were the largest legion after the Horus Heresy (due to suffering lower losses) and that they have very stable geneseed both mean that the majority of the geneseed in stock is Ultramarine - and so, the majority of new chapters end up using their seed. However, there's no reason that a new chapter wouldn't be formed from IF geneseed; they have the second most stable geneseed, and all of their successors pay geneseed tithes as normal.

Shibboleth
19-11-2007, 13:40
Thanks for the quick answer. Now what I remain slightly unclear about on the whole founding issue...do all new chapters recieve their geneseed from one of the original loyalist chapters ie Imp fist or Ultras, or can they get their seed from later founded chapters like Crimson fists or can't-think-of-any-ultra-based-new-chapters-but-you-know-what-I-mean?McMullet answered well enough, as long you understand that Crimson Fist geneseed IS Imperial Fist geneseed...

Kymar
19-11-2007, 14:53
The others here have pretty well cover this issue, but I thought I'd give my two cents. I have a small Imperial Fist army and I generally run them as standard IF SM as they are listed in the codex, but sometimes I like to try out the "Purity above all else" trait (apocatharies in tactical squads). I know there is no real rule that stops me from trying out alternate SM traits but I too like to have a fluffy background to my armies.

Long story short, I run this IF + "Purity" as an IF medical recover force that specializes in battlefield cleanup and gene-seed recover, particularly in service for the Black Templar who share their gene seed with the original IF legion. So instead of making these SM a successor chapter, I just see them as a specialized company of the existing IF chapter.

Just offering a slightly different take on the background fluff regarding SM variations.

Commander Dante
19-11-2007, 18:25
The Blood Angel and Space Wolf geneseed is no longer used to make new chapters as it is corrupted. But essentialy all geneseed comes from the first founding Legions by process of going backward through time.

Revlid
19-11-2007, 18:32
Don't forget that new geneseed won't necesserally be "pure"; that is, it won't contain geneseed from just one Founding Legion, it might have a mix. IIRC, the Magi of the Adeptus Biologis are forever fiddling with batches of their supplies to create purer or better strains, often resulting in instabilities that are not recognised until usage.

Sephtar II
19-11-2007, 20:51
ummm they do still use Space wolf and Blood angels. the thing about the red thirst/black rage is that the rest of the imperium dont really know about it.

mistformsquirrel
19-11-2007, 21:25
The Blood Angel and Space Wolf geneseed is no longer used to make new chapters as it is corrupted. But essentialy all geneseed comes from the first founding Legions by process of going backward through time.

Err... that's not true at all...

These are just the easy to find ones:


Space Wolves: Wolf Brothers

Blood Angels: Flesh Tearers, Angels Vermilion, Angels Encarmine, Blood Drinkers, Angels Sanguine, Flesh Eaters, Lamenters

And there are several others that certainly contain the possibility (I'm noting under Space Wolves the possibility of the Grey Slayers and Grey Claws being Space Wolf descendants)

I'm sure there's a ton more as well.

Imperialis_Dominatus
19-11-2007, 22:21
ummm they do still use Space wolf and Blood angels. the thing about the red thirst/black rage is that the rest of the imperium dont really know about it.

Half true. They do not use Wolf geneseed because of the aforementioned Wolf Brothers... they were a horrible failure and thus Space Wolf geneseed cannot be used.

Commander Dante
20-11-2007, 00:03
The Flaw has been detected by the Imperium and the geneseed is no longer used. The second founding chapters exist because they were made before the flaw was discovered.

Melchiah
20-11-2007, 00:20
My DIY chapter uses Imperial Fists geneseed.

mistformsquirrel
20-11-2007, 00:49
The Flaw has been detected by the Imperium and the geneseed is no longer used. The second founding chapters exist because they were made before the flaw was discovered.

The Lamenters are 21st founding. Flesh Eaters are a later founding (though I can't seem to find which).

Just because the flaw is known doesn't mean they aren't used.

I know a lot less about Space Wolves so I can't say a thing about the veracity of the Wolf Brothers being a success or failure.

Imperialis_Dominatus
20-11-2007, 01:32
In fact, the Lamenters were an attempt to weed out the Flaw but retain the superior geneseed of Sanguinius. They have good geneseed- really good in fact- and the Imperium will use it. It's just a matter of trying (not necessarily succeeding) to eliminate the flaw.

Commander Dante
20-11-2007, 03:39
The Lamenters are 21st founding. Flesh Eaters are a later founding (though I can't seem to find which).

Just because the flaw is known doesn't mean they aren't used.

I know a lot less about Space Wolves so I can't say a thing about the veracity of the Wolf Brothers being a success or failure.

im not saying that they stopped at the second founding, all im saying is that in the more recent founding Blood Angel geneseed is not used. and the Lamenters are hypothosized to have been a test to see if they could cure the flaw in the Geneseed. and apparantly Sanguinus and the Emperor arnt pleased and now they are cursed.

Melchiah
20-11-2007, 05:22
IIRC the only down side to the lamenter geneseed was its "bad" luck.

BrainFireBob
20-11-2007, 07:02
The Lamenter gene-seed was modified in some way that results in ill-luck: Parallelism allows one to advance an argument regarding some form of cloning therefore being involved in their creation. Although the Cursed Founding used gene-seed mixing and re-engineering as well, so who knows.

The Flesh Tearers *are* Second Founding, and hence created before the Flaw was known. How long it was before the High Lords realized the Flaw was there, is unknown, but most probably extending somewhat into the Foundings.

The Wolf Brothers were an attempt to "split" the Wolves- they all turned into Wulfen. The Wolves can stabilize the Canus Helix, no-one else seems to know how. Hard not to think that it's deliberate on behalf of the Wolves- especially if the Wolf Brothers simply used their gene-seed, instead of the traditional "teacher" officers being imported from the Wolves themselves.

leo_neil316
20-11-2007, 10:23
Makes you wonder why they don't use dark angel gene seed more.

Since no one but the death/ravenwing are supposed to know about the fall and dark angels gene seed is the only completely flawless stuff left.

PondaNagura
20-11-2007, 13:50
they still do actually. each successor to the DA, has an inner circle, who heads that chpater, and relates all info about Fallen sightings to the parent and other chapters.
it's in the DA dex.

mistformsquirrel
20-11-2007, 13:53
The Flesh Tearers *are* Second Founding, and hence created before the Flaw was known. How long it was before the High Lords realized the Flaw was there, is unknown, but most probably extending somewhat into the Foundings.

You may notice >.> I meantioned Flesh Eaters, not Flesh Tearers - similar names; different foundings.

@CommanderDante - Err... you implied just that - that they only had 2nd founding chapters because after that the flaw was detected.

Commander Dante
20-11-2007, 15:57
Yes i said that but thats not what i meant!!! I mean that the reason why the Blood Angels have subsequent foundings (i said second because i didnt want to list a bunch of foundings) is becasue the curse was discovered before those chapters were established. In order to prevent further mutation of the geneseed they have stopped useing it. Because i think the Flesh somethings (eaters or tearers) had got a really bad batch of it.

Shibboleth
20-11-2007, 22:40
they still do actually. each successor to the DA, has an inner circle, who heads that chpater, and relates all info about Fallen sightings to the parent and other chapters.
it's in the DA dex.They don't 'still do' in that way.
There are the Second Founding Chapters who already knew the secret because they were directly involved, but any Chapter founded with DA geneseed after that doesn't report to the DA, isn't in on their secret, doesn't hunt the Fallen, etc.
They'd just be standard chapters.

Alessander
21-11-2007, 02:35
The bio division of the AdMech probably does mix and match geneseeds. They probably use seed from the traitor legions too - yanking seed cultured from Garro etc (ie loyalists from the Traitor legions).

I want to see a marine with seed mixed from Wolves, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Blood Angels. Basically, a hairy, psychic tough psycho :D

Commander Dante
21-11-2007, 05:13
The bio division of the AdMech probably does mix and match geneseeds. They probably use seed from the traitor legions too - yanking seed cultured from Garro etc (ie loyalists from the Traitor legions).

I want to see a marine with seed mixed from Wolves, Thousand Sons, Death Guard and Blood Angels. Basically, a hairy, psychic tough psycho :D

im pretty sure geneseeds can not be mixed because that could cause it to mutate uncontrolably. besides 3 out of 4 of those geneseeds have been nortotius for mutation (Thousand Sons, Space Wolves, and Blood Angels) you wouldnt end up with a space marine you would end up with something similar to what happened to Corax's abominations x10.