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View Full Version : New O&G player...either help, or im quitting fantasy, so pliz read!!



EvilEuropean
19-11-2007, 13:37
Hey there...

Ive just recently started fantasy...and admittedly, through my
impulsiveness, was thrust into it.. Ive always liked the look of O&G,
and when the new codex came out, i just had2 get it...
Was a little indecisive between Empire/Chaos, but O&G it was...

Before doing much research, i went out and got myself the Battle for Skull pass
with a friend, and some blister packs (Goblin Shamans/Spear Chucka etc).
Was my bday shortly after that and i recieved the new Batallion Box, a 2X boxes of boys and the Mega army (i think) box with the codex....
I suddenly had over 200 unassembled, unpainted and unorganised models.
Kind of daunting. I learnt the rules, more or less and had a few horrible games against wood elf's and a few of the 'seemingly' unstoppable armies.
Think you get the picture....

I like to have fun when i play...but, im fairly competitive and like to win now and then....im not a terrible tactitian either, but with some of the rules out ther involving other armies (ie: New HE's super uber everything casually killers) and my own (In first couple of large games, my army, due to animosity got in each others way or squabbled, bringing squabbling units and those behind them to a halt, only to get charged and wiped out every time)...I also simply couldnt outmanuvre anybody because of bla bla bla bla.....

I play 40k orks aswell...and do pretty well 37 wins, 4 losses 2 draws....
and consistently in top 15 in local tourneys...etc. But fantasy orcs seem exceedingly different 2 40k counterparts...
It seems all armies have a final and utterly efficient answer to an O&G players army, while my army lacks that...anyhow, here's a hopefully complete list of all my units...Id love some input on tactics and maybe something inexpensive i could add to my army in order to be at least semi-competitive in fantasy Warhammer..
This is a sort of army list/model composition i have...and i use very similar variants in most of my games...which vary from 2000-3000pt, sorry for the vagueness but bear with me...

Characters:
1XBlack Orc warboss on boar (akkrit axe,enchanted shield,Iron Gnashas,Hvy armour)
1XOrc Shaman (Power stone, lvl2)
1XGoblin Shaman (Lvl2, staf of sneaky stealin)
-----i have numerous other Shamans/NGoblin shamans i dont use)
1XBOrc bigboss on chariot, standard bearer w waagh banner & porkos pigsticker.


Core: (I have over 140 Ngoblin models, half unassembled, so list=incomplete)
1X28 Ngoblins, Standard/musuician/boss/Netters/3Xfanatica/spear+shield.
2X20 NGoblin archers (use them as cannon for fanatics lol)
2X25 Ngoblin Standard/Musician/Boss, spear+shield

1X25 Orc BigUns, Standard/Musician/Boss+banner of butchery/Extra choppa/shield
1X20 Orc Boyz, Spear/Shield, Standard/Musician/Boss
1X20 Orc Boyz, Shield, Standard/Musician/Boss
(Another 19X unassembled)

2x10 Spider riders w Stndrd/Music/Boss
1x10 Wolf riders w Music/Boss

Special/rare:
1x10 Black orcs
1x2 Spear Chuckas
1xTroll
1xBoar Chariot



Thats that...over 220models...its huge..and potential for more once assembly takes place....it was pretty tiring putting them all together, time consuming, very expensive (my wood elf friend started with me....and boy did he get it easy on all fronts) and now i find ill probably get my butt kicked most of the time lol. I only discovered warseer & startin new army thread a couple of weeks ago...when i already had all my models....
Could some wise men out there hear my plea and help me out tactics wise (yes, ive read and reread the orc tactica...but i want a few varying opinions) and getting new miniatures wise (god...no more) ie: Wheyvren? (think thats how its spelt)...

Thanks for any who help me and/or constructive criticism provided..
Go greenies! (They are just soooo cool looking and attitude wise still!)

EvC
19-11-2007, 13:59
Well basically if you want to do well with Orcs and Goblins, that means minimising thir "characterful" rules. So put your mounted Warboss in your Big Uns unit; put your Orc Shaman with the Black Orcs so he never squabbles. It might be better for you to switch your Gobbo shaman and the other Black Orc around- an opponent uses a Goblin Shaman on Chariot very well against me (Just send it into the flanks and hope for the best), and then the Black Orc BSB can help another Orc unit avoid animosity. Split your big fast cav units into smaller units (for redundancy), then load up on as many Spear Chukkas and Chariots as you can get, and then you may just stand a chance. Might want to get a Doom Diver as well, much better against pesky Wood Elves :D

warlord hack'a
19-11-2007, 15:20
go and read Avian's site (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/index.php), it's got more hints, tips and tactics than there are night goblins at a 'drink all you can fungus beer contest'

mav1971
19-11-2007, 17:17
Personally I'd get rid of the spears for your orcs and 1 unit of spider riders. Then use some points to add another rank to your black orcs. Maybe add another troll.

Glabro
19-11-2007, 18:01
Ouch. Wood Elves. But of course, Wood Elves.

Itīll be tough, I know, especially since your fast units have abysmal LD and Fear the Elves - you could try a mobile Warboss on a Wyvern and try to lead your Spider & Wolf Riders around, while numerous blocks of cheap Boyz advance.

Actually, instead of Boyz, you might want to consider investing into a LOT of Arrer boyz. Those fellows will be a true Morksend against those pansy elves. Fanatics are also pretty good as "no-movement zones" for the buggers.

Sunfang
19-11-2007, 22:41
1st Post!

New to the forum but not to Warhammer.

Anyhow,

Evil,
I would suggest scrapping the trolls altogether and picking up a giant instead. Trolls perpensity to go stupid makes them unreliable at best. Since most of your army can be unreliable at times limit that as best as possible.

Green Feevah!
19-11-2007, 23:10
Don't quit! Orcs end up being the most fun army to play in Fantasy!

I had a somewhat similar experience to you starting out, except substitute Wood Elves for Archaon's Legion (ask me how fair I think that was). Luckily though, another friend of mine was a long time fantasy player and gave me a lot of advice that help me not only get the most of Orcs and Goblins, but also to help me over the Chaos cheezefest that was going on around me at the time.

Anyways, the advice he gave me was pretty simple: Core win your games. I modified my existing list, which was magic item heavy, special unit heavy, and character heavy into a lean, mean fighting machine. Since then I have tweaked the list even further, but the basic idea is the same. More troops, less upgrades.

I never run big 'uns, for their price you can almost get another unit of basic boyz. All my characters are pretty bare (Warboss with Great Axe, 2 Bosses with Greataxes, and a lvl 2 Shaman with a scroll), I run mostly Orcs (4 X 25, 3 with choppa/shield, 1 with 2 choppas, full command), a couple of night goblins (2 X 25 with spears and nets, musician, 1 fanatic), 4 units of wolf riders (the spider perform better, but I like the look of the wolf riders; spear and musician) and 4 chariots. That basically my 2000 points list (I've been playing mostly 3000 points lately, so that's a rough guess, my 3000 point list is another shaman, 3 more units of night goblins as above, another double choppa unit, the amulet of protectyness for my warboss, and 3 more scrolls).

I've tried other units (the warmachines, the giant, trolls, Black Orcs, etc...) and I've found that point for point, nothing does better than a Orc Boy (Choppa and Shield does better than 2 Choppas or Spears). So I base my army around my boyz, instead of basing my boyz around my Lord, or other units. They do all the damage for me in the end. My character are there, in the units of boyz, just assisting with damage-dealing.

It is a lot more models, and a lot more assembling and painting, but it's totally worth it.

Dead Man Walking
20-11-2007, 00:48
I would like to point out that your going to have to be patient with WFB. No one steps right in and starts winning right off the bat. I like to call it 'Learning how to loose before learning how to win.".

A pro is going to walk all over a noob every time, until the new guy gets use to the game and becomes a pro but that can only be done through experience. In 40k you can read the rules, read the forums and roll the dice to a win but fantasy is much more complex since you can flee charges, challenge champions (Or refuse) and its more about making immiediate choices rather than in 40k where all the choices are made in your turn and you have no decisions to make during your opponents turn.
So my point is your army and game playing skills are only going to get better by;
A: playing, loosing and getting experienced at the nuances of the game.
B: Knowing your opponent and thier army.
C: Being patient and taking your lumps.

BGS
20-11-2007, 02:09
I play wood elves myself, use things that outmaneuver such as night goblin squig hoppers, expensive but immune to psychology with 2 attacks at strength 5 plus they are skirmished which cuts down on the wood elves ballistic skill and they move at a decent 3d6 rate in any direction desired. Goblin doom divers are also great against just about any army. Keep they shamans out of the chariots, they work best being sneaky and countering wood elves magic. Also mork's spirit totem is pretty good for added dispel. There are other tactics you may use but these are the first things that come to mind. Good luck and don't give up!

Tutore
20-11-2007, 08:34
go and read Avian's site (http://folk.ntnu.no/tarjeia/avian/index.php), it's got more hints, tips and tactics than there are night goblins at a 'drink all you can fungus beer contest'

I second that. On the other hand, you have very good troops by now. Use them well and you'll win. You could need a bit of warmachines (2 spear chuckas to start, for example).

forgottenlor
20-11-2007, 09:51
As someone who started into fantasy by playing with my friend's orc and goblin army, I'm sorry to tell you that you have taken a very difficult army to master. Orcs & Gobbos can be very fun, but the learning curve is not easy. In my opinion squig hoppers are the best O&G unit. Trade the troll and black orcs for two units and watch the blood begin to fly.

feintstar
20-11-2007, 10:39
Amen. I'm a HE player, and with the new rules, my only losses have been vs Skaven and Goblins iwht loads of artilery, Squighoppers, and fanatics. I know how good squighoppers and fanatics are from the ugly end of the stick - two dragons later, and I'll be giving them a much wider berth...

You're doubly handicapped because of your opponent. Fantasy is hard to learn relative to 40K, O & G are hard to use and WE are bloody hard to beat with even a really easy-to-use army.

Trick to beating Woodelveses... I reckon its the same trick to beating any elf: Make sure that you can Shoot/magic as well as them or better, and never give them a flank. Outnumber by units (have 2x + as many units as they do) and thereby get their flank - not necessarily by outmaneuvering, but because numerical superiority dictates that they can't guard all their flanks when they're outnumbered 2-1. Try to avoid the necessity of advancing - with animosity, it can end up staggering your line, so If you can hole up in a corner, do so. Last thing - be patient. Attrition vs elves is always the way to win. They will do horrendous casualties, but you can still win with what's left over - so If you can goad your opponent into charging when it could be wiser for him to keep shooting, sit back and take the casualties - he'll have to come out eventually, as your spells will do as much damage as his...

King Thurgun
20-11-2007, 13:17
Also, though you've got a ton of models, you should probably pick a theme for your list. Do you want to go horde or hard as nails? Do you want lots of infantry blocks or send all those fast cav you have scurrying around? I know from experience that goblin lists with a balance between war machines, fast cav, and those massive infantry blocks can be really nasty.

On the other side of the equation, lots of black orcs and big 'uns, with proper units to screen and redirect for them and whatnot, can be really good too. They're a little tougher to play with but you sounded like you wanted a list more like Orks in 40k, so that might appeal to you a bit more.

Don't get discouraged by your first couple games, and remember there are no "undefeatable" armies. Even the high elves, with the gobbo's special weakness against them, can be beaten. I've yet to see a night goblin fanatic or 3 smash through a swordmaster unit, but I imagine it is not fun for the high elf player.

All in all, you've got a ton of models, so just playtest the hell out of a 2k list until you find something you like. Fantasy and 40k are different games, they just take a little time to learn.

Finally, get rid of the night goblin archers, they're complete rubbish :D

Heretic Burner
20-11-2007, 21:33
It appears you have no desire to play a bottom tier army. You aren't having fun, in fact you are having so much aggrevation you are thinking of leaving the entire game! It's time to cut your losses and look for an army that is more suited towards your attitude/playstyle. I suggest Brets or WE, its very easy to win with both of them and fairly inexpensive as well.

Sell your army, I'm sure there is someone out there that will take it off your hands. Try ebay. Next time try testing your army first to make sure you enjoy playing it before spending so much.

Kahadras
20-11-2007, 23:37
I suggest Brets or WE, its very easy to win with both of them and fairly inexpensive as well.


I'd ignore this 'advice'


Sell your army, I'm sure there is someone out there that will take it off your hands. Try ebay. Next time try testing your army first to make sure you enjoy playing it before spending so much.

and this.

O&G are a challenging army to get to grips with IMHO but it certainly is possible and you shouldn't feel discouraged if you suffer set backs. One of my mates plays O&G and he's got a great win/lose record but it took him a while to find the winning formula. I'd echo the advice of looking at Avien's site for some good hints of where to go.

Kahadras

Finnigan2004
21-11-2007, 00:15
Yes, certainly ignore the advice about selling your army-- I am fairly sure that it is not meant constructively. Orcs and goblins look to me like they can be an effective army, although I do not personally play them. I have seen them used effectively on a battlefield and they can perform very well. As for modelling and painting, make sure that you make your list first and test it with the unpainted models. Then be sure to batch paint them-- there is a good forum on this site for painting, etc.. Good luck with it.

Glabro
21-11-2007, 01:31
I think itīs very possible for the orcs to win against Wood Elves, it just takes a different kind of army build. I recommend you try out the īarrer boyz strategy, even with proxy models. Get many units of them. Deploy them in a wide line, and shoot at any elf you can see. Put Night Goblins with Fanatics in between those units - it will protect you against dryads and such. Never forget that Arrer Boyz also fight with S4 and T4 on the first round. Also, you can try to control the forests with sizable mobs of Spider Riders.

sephiroth87
21-11-2007, 01:36
It appears you have no desire to play a bottom tier army. You aren't having fun, in fact you are having so much aggrevation you are thinking of leaving the entire game! It's time to cut your losses and look for an army that is more suited towards your attitude/playstyle. I suggest Brets or WE, its very easy to win with both of them and fairly inexpensive as well.

Sell your army, I'm sure there is someone out there that will take it off your hands. Try ebay. Next time try testing your army first to make sure you enjoy playing it before spending so much.

Why stop there? He should just kill himself. Just take some sleeping pills, put a bag over his head, and go sit in the tub for a while. That will teach him to try to play the greenskins.

Is it wrong of me to imagine Heretic Burner logging in as a different account, posting this, and then "helpfully" offering advice? Then he goes and eats another plastic goblin, sticking the roof of his mouth again with a spear for the 700th time and then blames Mat Ward for all the ruin in his life.

After that he goes and hugs his 6th edition O&G army book with candles around it, and brushes his hair while softly singing "Butterfly Kisses" or something by Kenny G...

Dead Man Walking
21-11-2007, 02:16
Frankly the original posting smacks of an undisciplined and impatient mind. The title itself demands attention and if they dont get it they will do something rash. You should in all truth quit playing because you won't win just because you want to always win.

I said before that fantasy is a different game than 40k and it takes a while to learn how to win. Simply putting a killer list on the table will not win games like it -can- in 40k. A weak list in the hands of an experienced player will beat a hard core cheese fest list in the hands of a new player.

In fantasy an army can win or loose just based on how you put your army on the table in deployment no matter how skilled you are. You can loose because you mistook the distance from one unit to another or because your opponent had a magic item surprise that you didnt count on.

If you cant be patient, mature and disciplined then you should quit. In a 'Give me now' mindset you have already lost WFB before you even placed your army on the table.

Dont feed the animals and don't enable the impatient.

Tutore
21-11-2007, 06:36
It appears you have no desire to play a bottom tier army. You aren't having fun, in fact you are having so much aggrevation you are thinking of leaving the entire game! It's time to cut your losses and look for an army that is more suited towards your attitude/playstyle. I suggest Brets or WE, its very easy to win with both of them and fairly inexpensive as well.

Sell your army, I'm sure there is someone out there that will take it off your hands. Try ebay. Next time try testing your army first to make sure you enjoy playing it before spending so much.


Ignore all this. O&G is the funniest army, and wins as any other army. Bretonnia and Wood Elves may have some nasty tricks, but you still have some.

Wintermute
21-11-2007, 07:03
Can we please give advice to the thread starter which he asked for.

Advising him to quit Warhammer does fall into this category and is not welcome or helpful.

Wintermute
The WarSeer Inquisition

warlord hack'a
21-11-2007, 11:31
he has been given quite some advise but we have not heard back from him..

Ward.
21-11-2007, 11:53
My advise is not to quit or get rid of your army.

Yeah the book is a bit weak and animosity doesn't really feel represented by the rules, but if you just start trying to get into the orcs and goblins character it can be really fun, unless your a "gamer" at heart or your opponent is a douche.

My advice as far as tactics is, get more spear chucka's (it'd help if you posted a rough of his list and how you like to play or how you imagine the game should go), lose the troll and read avians tactica. Also don't be afraid to do strange things like the goblin + 3 fanatics redeployment move, it's cunning like all orcs should be.

wingedserpant
21-11-2007, 16:16
I'd make your gobbo units bigger.

Keep using your army and you will soon become very hard to stop.

Stretch your army acrcoss the whole table and use squig hoppers to cover up holes in the line caused by terrian. Your opponent will soon be cornered. Hell even reading this thread wants me to pick up my horde.

Only one troll? You need four for them to be any good. Have 15 black orcs not ten.

Take some of the magic items off your characters and get even more troops.

kaulem
21-11-2007, 17:09
As noted before me...

Here are the unit composition suggestions:

more black orc bosses in orc units,
no Trolls,
beef up your gobbo units to at least 30,
beef up your black orc unit to at least 20,
fast cavalry should come in groups of 6 (it takes 2 kills to create a panic test)
fast cavalry should only get the musician upgrade.
MORE FATATICS... MORE, MORE, MORE!!! ;)
Skirmishing Bouncy Squigs are nice VS the tree huggers.
Spear chukkas come in groups of 4 (not 2 like the rulebook says)
Doom divers & Giants are the only rare we've got worth mentionning.

Here are the General Warhammer Suggestions:
MOVEMENT IS THE KEY TO WINNING AT WARHAMMER

EvilEuropean
22-11-2007, 10:38
wow-thanks guys, there are some pretty good feedbacks there...
Keep em coming if you can. Ive printed out some of your ideas, and made some slight changes (The 'stupid' troll gets to sit this one out especially)...

In about 1hour im having a 2800pt game vs my friends bastard, scum, bastard WE's.
Ill try make contributers proud. Tomorrow im playin HE's and Chaos. (im goin2 get my green ass caved it aren't i?). Ive reduced my characters wargear and added loads of new core troops...Id have added some boar boyz and hoppers but im running out of funds, so ill just do what i can. On average most of you agreed to pump up my core choices.
But my fast cavalry does feel a bit vunerable now that ive split most of them...
i mean, the WE's do have some utterly mean shooting.

But, lets see what happens...its a lot more tactical/strategy orientated than 40k in my opnion, and im playing vs very beginner friendly armies...
I say again, ill try make u guys proud....(with over 240 models in my army, which are a bitch to carry around, i think ill kill an elf or 2....its statistics!).

Thanks guys

Glabro
22-11-2007, 18:38
Great to hear. May you crush and shoot down many an elf.

EvilEuropean
26-11-2007, 10:40
Good god...
Its been a pretty long day..
You guys were right, core helps win the day..
The WE scum, ****, bastard, scum still won...but only by little this time...
And i managed to **** him off too..

My army did include a lot of models....and many squabbled every turn...boxing the rest of the boys in a lot of the time, which was frustrating. I did learn that fanatics kill stuff...and a lot...i managed to kill of an entire unit of those twin staff/spear wielding woodies by rolling well (i rolled 17 hits, of which 14 caused casualties)...but aside from that, dice killed my game and not your advice. Thank guys...
One thing, he had a 'treeman ancient', who was unkillable and just by farting or something would kill off half my army, lol. Do i just ignore him next time or?
Maybe i need something harder hitting as he took 2 chariots in the chest + impact hits and just kind of stood there and killed anything orc like.

As for the HE game, i was terrified of the sword masters-due to all the hype and their utter and apparent killiness, but my fanatics and a big unit of Big un's with banner of butchery just raped them...I acutually won the game...and with my core choices taking most of the glory too.

As for chaos, it was a slaughter...their units are cheap,easy to paint, easy to carry and utterly unstoppable. Those knights just cassually rode around killing anything they wanted and not giving a damn about any flank countercharges etc. Is this fair?
And there was a Greater deamon too...who must go to the same gym the WE ancient pumps iron in because there's pretty much nothing that ever seem could work.

I suppse i did better than usual, a close loss (WE), a solid win (HE) and a massacre..lol...a royal one (Chaos).
Thanks for your advice, but i guess its up to me to learn, just like i did with 40k-I used to just loose, and one day i hit that winning streak.

If anybody has any more ideas, please contribute, but for now its:
-Toned down characters
-No Trolls
-More Core
-Doom diver
-More Spear Chuckas
For the model selecton...
What about some tactics (i know about the fanatic 'cannons' n thats it) if thats not too much to ask? I like to have fun playing, and the games were fun...but being competitive, i like to win a little too. Any hard lists for O&G that can stand with the best of them or?

Thanks for your help so far..
Im pretty positive about sticking to this army, but a lot can happen...
(ive read O&G dont do too well on average_
Thanks again n keep em coming pliz!

Hikigaeru
26-11-2007, 20:04
I'd recommend you not abandon your Fanatics, too. More often than not, mine hurt me at least as much as my opponent or simply kill themselves before they can do any good. But they're still fun as hell!

Chicago Slim
27-11-2007, 02:36
Glad to see you're back and in good spirits, Evil.

You've got the right idea on those gargantuan single models (the Treeman Ancient and the Greater Daemon): they're enormous, absurdly powerful, and incredibly hard to kill by any means. Personally, my standard tactic when I see one is to commit a small fraction of my army to tying them up for the battle: if I can feed under 200 points of troops (who WILL be killed!) to keeping the attention of a 400-500 point monstrosity, then that should open up an advantage for me somewhere else.

Alternatively, there are a couple of character-based magic item combos that can make it possible to actually kill those big guys-- but the downside of it is that you're committing one of your four expensive characters to chasing the jerk down, and even then you're not guaranteed to win the fight. In a greenskin list, I think you're better off using your characters to command your troops, and using cheap troops to isolate the big fellas (be careful, though-- if the troops you bait with are TOO cheap, he's not likely to take the bait...)

Good show on not buying the Swordmasters hype-- they pack a wallop, but at Strength 5, you have answers to it (like the Black Orcs you used!) They'll get some kills in (not too many if you have shields), but you can take them with "static" combat resolution (rank bonuses and numbers), since your Black Orcs are a lot cheaper than those Swordmasters...

As for Chaos Knights, they're a hard nut to crack, as well. Black orcs and characters can use great weapons to help crack open their armor (1+ save, versus Strength 6, goes to a 4+), but it's tricky business keeping them from charging you (they have better Movement, after all) and slaughtering your boyz before you get your licks in. Bringing LARGE units of orcs will help, though: if you have 20 guys with a banner when he charges you, then he's already down at least 4 points of combat resolution (unless he gets to your flank). That's a lot of killing he has to do to make up for it. A fairly common plan is to take his charge with a big unit of Orcs, and hope to stand fast, and then counter-charge him on your next turn with something that packs high-strength. The thing about Chaos knights is, they're VERY expensive, so he can't bring many of them... every kill REALLY counts.

Grinloc
27-11-2007, 03:43
Good show on not buying the Swordmasters hype-- they pack a wallop, but at Strength 5, you have answers to it (like the Black Orcs you used!) They'll get some kills in (not too many if you have shields), but you can take them with "static" combat resolution (rank bonuses and numbers), since your Black Orcs are a lot cheaper than those Swordmasters...

Black Orcs being a lot cheaper than Swordmasters?
Take an actual look into the army book.
Black Orcs with shields cost 14 points per model, not something i'd call cheap by any stretch...

Example: 20 Black Orcs (5-wide for static CR) vs. 14 Swordmasters (7-wide):

SM: 15 attacks, 10 hits, 6 wounds.
BO: AS5+, 2 successful saves. 1 BO strikes back (the champion), 2 attacks, 1 hit, 1 wound.

That means 4 dead Black Orcs compared to 1 dead SM.
Result:
BO: 1 kill, 2 ranks, standard, outnumbering. 5.
SM: 4 kills, 1 rank, standard. 6.

So it's quite possibly either a draw or the Black Orcs lose (as in the example). But they gonna lose an additional rank and their outnumbering advantage in the next CC phase, not to mention their choppa bonus.
Doesn't look good...

Grinloc
27-11-2007, 05:36
Against SM the tools which an O&G's player got are:
Artillery (of any kind)
Arrer Boyz (debatable...)
Fanatics
Orc Chariots (Wolf chariots would need to pass fear checks)
Giants

The only infantry unit which POSSIBLY can get a draw against them are Black Orcs. Since Black Orcs would be a lil more expensive (due to the intended outnumbering bonus) that's somewhat reasonable.
But any other infantry/cavarly unit would be required to flank charge them. But just don't try it with Wolf Riders against SM with 1 rank lol.

Hrogoff the Destructor
27-11-2007, 06:07
Black Orcs being a lot cheaper than Swordmasters?
Take an actual look into the army book.
Black Orcs with shields cost 14 points per model, not something i'd call cheap by any stretch...

Example: 20 Black Orcs (5-wide for static CR) vs. 14 Swordmasters (7-wide):

SM: 15 attacks, 10 hits, 6 wounds.
BO: AS5+, 2 successful saves. 1 BO strikes back (the champion), 2 attacks, 1 hit, 1 wound.

That means 4 dead Black Orcs compared to 1 dead SM.
Result:
BO: 1 kill, 2 ranks, standard, outnumbering. 5.
SM: 4 kills, 1 rank, standard. 6.

So it's quite possibly either a draw or the Black Orcs lose (as in the example). But they gonna lose an additional rank and their outnumbering advantage in the next CC phase, not to mention their choppa bonus.
Doesn't look good...

I'm pretty sure ranks are counting from the start of combat, not the end. So the BO's would have 3 ranks, tying the combat.

sephiroth87
27-11-2007, 06:16
Against SM the tools which an O&G's player got are:
Artillery (of any kind)
Arrer Boyz (debatable...)
Fanatics
Orc Chariots (Wolf chariots would need to pass fear checks)
Giants

The only infantry unit which POSSIBLY can get a draw against them are Black Orcs. Since Black Orcs would be a lil more expensive (due to the intended outnumbering bonus) that's somewhat reasonable.
But any other infantry/cavarly unit would be required to flank charge them. But just don't try it with Wolf Riders against SM with 1 rank lol.

Sky still falling? :p

I hear you can also charge with multiple units these days...

Grinloc
27-11-2007, 07:37
Correct, ranks are indeed counting from the start of combat, mixed that up.

When it comes to charging with multiple units:
I hear you can also cut out the "wise guy"-responses these days...

Multiple charges are optional for all armies. When attemtping to overwhelm the opposing unit it still would have the option of fleeing, which would only be a partial success often enough. A flying unit being part of the combined charge would be nice, but O&G's don't have those other than a wyvern.

So to not even let it come to this point...just wipe them out with shooting (if you can). Would be the least effort while letting the O&G's player concentrate on the rest of the enemy instead of suffering (most likely) heavy casualties against just one unit.