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Red_Lep
20-11-2007, 01:33
After multiple tries at redoing my HE I'm at a loss so I was thinking I'd go back to Empire. I'm not sure about how to make a 1000pt list based around Wizards from the Golden Order. Any advice?

Fate
20-11-2007, 11:33
3 mages

at leat 3 units of archers to protect the wizards.

a steam tank to have hitting power.

a couple cannons.

Yeah it's a shooting list but with only 1000 pts it's kinda hard to go any other way since you need the cannons and the steam tank.

brettz123
20-11-2007, 13:25
3 mages

at leat 3 units of archers to protect the wizards.

a steam tank to have hitting power.

a couple cannons.

Yeah it's a shooting list but with only 1000 pts it's kinda hard to go any other way since you need the cannons and the steam tank.

The list above is actually really bad. Most other armies will blow it away. If you run into even one cannon your steam tank will most likely be finished in two turns. And frankly at 1000 points it isn't unreasonable to assume you will be facing two cannons.

You dont need the steam cannon at all. Take 3 mages maybe even just two. You might have to make one or two of them 1st level with only 1000 points. Take two blocks of 20-25 Swordsmen and give each a detachment of archers and another of either halberdiers or militia. Take at least one cannon.

Archers as units themselves pretty much suck and will get blown away by someone else. As a detachment they screen your infantry blocks while you move in and when they do get destroyed dont cause panic in anyone.

brambleten
20-11-2007, 15:59
a captain for the leadership, a couple of mages then swordsmen, speamen and cannons or maybe outriders

W0lf
20-11-2007, 16:46
Gold Wizard, lvl 2, Dispel scroll, Dispel Scroll
Gold Wizard, lvl 2, Rod of power, Power stone

300 pts

Warrior priest, armour of meteric iron, great weapon
119 pts

2 cannons

200 pts.

Thats 619 pts.

You fill in the blanks.

brettz123
20-11-2007, 16:53
Gold Wizard, lvl 2, Dispel scroll
Gold Wizard, lvl 2, Rod of power, Power stone

300 pts

Warrior priest, armour of meteric iron, great weapon
119 pts

2 cannons

200 pts.

Thats 619 pts.

You fill in the blanks.

Yeah that looks pretty good. Lots of anti-magic too.

W0lf
20-11-2007, 17:41
i mis-typed.

Wizard 1 has 2 scrolls.

And yes its pretty decent.

id suggest somethign like:

10 Handgunners
Detachment: 5 crossbowmen
Detachment: 5 crossbowmen
160 pts

28 Swordsmen, Full command (add priest and a wizard here)
193 pts

28 pts left... Probably drop one of the scrolls and get a detachment of 10 Halberdiers for the swordsmen block?

brambleten
20-11-2007, 17:51
or you could go over by 2 pts and add in a detachment of 6 militia as a screen for the swords.

brettz123
20-11-2007, 19:03
or you could go over by 2 pts and add in a detachment of 6 militia as a screen for the swords.

Go over by two points!!!!! Shame on you :D. Either one would be pretty good. 2 attacks for the militia is nice but my personal preference is for the strength 4 just in case you need to crack something tough.

brambleten
20-11-2007, 19:47
unless you want to be 3 points under.
if you check most lists around at most gaming clubs they are usually a couple points over. its not going to do any real harm, anyway. besides, it covers more of your swords if you take 6 over 5

Fate
20-11-2007, 23:58
At 100 there isn't much that can deal with a steam tank so it's much of a safe bet. Plus a couple of cannons will ensure no large targets get in your way. Also if going for magic either go all out or just get one mage cause otherwise it most like won't work till the 3rd or 4th turn which is very late in the game already.
Archers may not be the best units but they are skirmishers which is pretty decent against enemy missiles for mage protection.

A list like this means that you have the shooting you need (cannons cause the archers aren't there to actually kill anything).
Magic to kill most enemies (also bear in mind that with 7ed you don't need to chose your lore until you roll for the spells so you can always adapt the lore to the enemy).
Combat that is able to kill nearly anything without much troubles.

The only real downside to this is that rosters with a lot of bolt throwers and/or heavy cavalary might be a bit harder, but if well played you'll manage it.

Course this is just my opinion and you should play the way you wish, and of course, kill the enemies of the Empire for desacrating the holy soil of sigmar! :evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:

brettz123
21-11-2007, 03:36
At 100 there isn't much that can deal with a steam tank so it's much of a safe bet. Plus a couple of cannons will ensure no large targets get in your way. Also if going for magic either go all out or just get one mage cause otherwise it most like won't work till the 3rd or 4th turn which is very late in the game already.
Archers may not be the best units but they are skirmishers which is pretty decent against enemy missiles for mage protection.

A list like this means that you have the shooting you need (cannons cause the archers aren't there to actually kill anything).
Magic to kill most enemies (also bear in mind that with 7ed you don't need to chose your lore until you roll for the spells so you can always adapt the lore to the enemy).
Combat that is able to kill nearly anything without much troubles.

The only real downside to this is that rosters with a lot of bolt throwers and/or heavy cavalary might be a bit harder, but if well played you'll manage it.

Course this is just my opinion and you should play the way you wish, and of course, kill the enemies of the Empire for desacrating the holy soil of sigmar! :evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:

At 1000 points a lot of stuff can deal with steam tanks. Like two cannons. Like a decent decked out hero. Like skaven. Like a vampire. Do I need to go on?

Archers are great as skirmishers thats true but you get the same effect if you use them as a detachment. And you don't suffer any penalties once they break.

Your list has no HtH units at all so itsn't going to cut it against other opponents. If you are looking for mage protection just stick them into a unit of swordsmen or spearmen. Heck even a unit of greatswords is pretty good to hide a mage in.

Fate
21-11-2007, 11:42
Actually not many things cause hearoes are not that good against a steam tank, unless you can somehow make the charge the steam tank without exposing him to a volley of fire, though warmachines can cause some damage however at 1000 pts there won't be that many.

Using archers as detachements is good but if they break with a character inside they will cause panic so no much point in that, and of course you don't actually have the points to field more units in the rooster i said.

Again you are wrong saying that i have no HtH units, the steam tank is the only HtH unit i'm gonna need and sticking my mages in rank and file units? No thanks, it has 2 major disadvantages. The movement is much more constriced while in skirmishers i move freely and the line of sight is restriced as well where in skirmishers i have 360 degrees.

Also IMO empire infantry are cannon fodder, they don't kill anything and just die horribly. And no matter what you say i've seen it countless times die and not doing jackshit.

Also a good player will know how to negate the detachements support charge.

Red_Lep
21-11-2007, 22:13
i mis-typed.

Wizard 1 has 2 scrolls.

And yes its pretty decent.

id suggest somethign like:

10 Handgunners
Detachment: 5 crossbowmen
Detachment: 5 crossbowmen
160 pts

28 Swordsmen, Full command (add priest and a wizard here)
193 pts

28 pts left... Probably drop one of the scrolls and get a detachment of 10 Halberdiers for the swordsmen block?

Thanks for all the advice :D

Just wondering, why give the Handgunners 2 detachments but nothing for the Swordsmen? Also I take it the second Wizard goes with the Handgunners?

brettz123
21-11-2007, 23:31
Actually not many things cause hearoes are not that good against a steam tank, unless you can somehow make the charge the steam tank without exposing him to a volley of fire, though warmachines can cause some damage however at 1000 pts there won't be that many.

Using archers as detachements is good but if they break with a character inside they will cause panic so no much point in that, and of course you don't actually have the points to field more units in the rooster i said.

Again you are wrong saying that i have no HtH units, the steam tank is the only HtH unit i'm gonna need and sticking my mages in rank and file units? No thanks, it has 2 major disadvantages. The movement is much more constriced while in skirmishers i move freely and the line of sight is restriced as well where in skirmishers i have 360 degrees.

Also IMO empire infantry are cannon fodder, they don't kill anything and just die horribly. And no matter what you say i've seen it countless times die and not doing jackshit.

Also a good player will know how to negate the detachements support charge.

A steam tank is a hand to hand unit now? You dont seem to know what you are talking about. Frankly at 1000 points you will very likely face something that can kill your steam tank. And frankly if your opponent knows what he is doing your steam tank will have a hard time getting its points worth before he takes it down. The thing is hardly unkillable.

You dont put heroes in detachments and detachments dont cause panic when they break. Your units of archers however will cause panic when they break. And very possibly take a chunk of the army with them.

You should check out warhammer-empire.com. Empire units with 5+ ranks and a banner do very well against most things. The static CR certainly goes a long way towards winning most battles. If your empire units arent doing well in hth then you arent playing them anywhere near correctly. I have been playing empire for years and my swordsmen conistently wipe the floor with other units. And frankly if your detachments arent working well you proably arent using them well either. Anyway check out the above website and you will gain a much better understanding of how the army works.

Fate
22-11-2007, 01:03
Well i've been playing with empire for 8 years so i think i pretty much know what i'm talking about. And what i'm talking about is cavalary units charging the foot soldiers and making them run like hell only to be trampled in the persuit.
From my point of view (and 95% of players here) unit is only worth fielding if it can resist damage, cause a lot of damage and has a good movement so it can take shoots, charge, kill mostly anything or make sure it will run and then be on it's way to pick the next target.
Static CR never won anything if you bring an army with the best they can field, here in Portugal we look at the battle reports on white dwarves while shaking our head and saying, what the hell is wrong with this guys to bring armies like that.

I would like to play a game against you but i belive we live in diferrent coutries wich is a shame so you would see what i mean.

A steam tank is hand to hand unit yes, it charges in the movement phase, it causes impacts in the combat phase and models killed wont strike back, i don't know about you but i do count that as hand to hand.

Also i don't mind my units to run from time to time, i know that it's bound to happen unless all goes perfectly and in reallity nothing ever goes perfect but it's a necessary risk.

I understand your point of view, but you simply have never faced armies like i usually do, otherwise you'd probably change your mind, i only say what i say because i've tested many times infantry and the results have always been negative.

brettz123
22-11-2007, 02:06
Well i've been playing with empire for 8 years so i think i pretty much know what i'm talking about. And what i'm talking about is cavalary units charging the foot soldiers and making them run like hell only to be trampled in the persuit.
From my point of view (and 95% of players here) unit is only worth fielding if it can resist damage, cause a lot of damage and has a good movement so it can take shoots, charge, kill mostly anything or make sure it will run and then be on it's way to pick the next target.
Static CR never won anything if you bring an army with the best they can field, here in Portugal we look at the battle reports on white dwarves while shaking our head and saying, what the hell is wrong with this guys to bring armies like that.

I would like to play a game against you but i belive we live in diferrent coutries wich is a shame so you would see what i mean.

A steam tank is hand to hand unit yes, it charges in the movement phase, it causes impacts in the combat phase and models killed wont strike back, i don't know about you but i do count that as hand to hand.

Also i don't mind my units to run from time to time, i know that it's bound to happen unless all goes perfectly and in reallity nothing ever goes perfect but it's a necessary risk.

I understand your point of view, but you simply have never faced armies like i usually do, otherwise you'd probably change your mind, i only say what i say because i've tested many times infantry and the results have always been negative.

I saw your 2k list. You run a gunline. With this kind of build you arent going to do well in tournaments.

I am not saying it is a horrible list just not even close to the best list you can make. My empire blocks almost never get broken by cavalry. I play have played in lots of tournaments and not just against friends. The infantry based blocks are without a doubt the best army the empire can field.

Just look at the grand tournament placements and you will see most of the best empire lists use large blocks with detachments. Again go to the site I told you and you will certainly have a better understanding of this. Funny how you are the only one that thinks your list is really good.

First of all your army is going to either do spectacularly well or get its butt handed to it. You have no way to stop units once they arrive and unless you are lucky or your opponent is horrible that is going to happen.

Any army that has something that can tunnel will destroy you. So dwarves, skaven, and tomb kings will erase you. Elves and Wood elves with their longer range will have no problem taking you out in a turn or two. Beastmen with their ambush ability will tear you to shreds most of the time. I could see this list doing ok against Bretonnians and maybe even lizardmen. Probably tear a goblin horde to shreds. vampire counts will eat this army for breakfast. You wont be able to break him and as soon as his vampire gets at you you will be finished. Probably tear up chaos too (of course I'm not sure that is saying much).

I wont make any comments like some other people have about what kind of player you are because that is rude when you dont know someone and as long as you and your friends are having fun it isnt anyone elses business. But you seem a little inexperienced with fighting other competitive armies and you shoudl broaden your warhammer intellectual horizons. It is a little funny that you are the only person here talking about how good your list is and everyone else is telling you that you need to work on it. Do you really think you know better then everyone else? Like I said go to the site I gave you and try to keep an open mind. You come off as a little stuck up and frankly just a tad bit ignorant of your own list when you make demonstrably untrue statements about static CR never winning.

PS - White Dwarf battle reports are usually laughable with some of the worst lists I have ever seen. Oh and who says we cant play a game???? I have never played warhammer by mail but it might work?

Fate
22-11-2007, 02:33
A pitty it doesn't really work like, unless someone would consider to make a completly interactive table with all armies and stuff and a possibility to play online, now that would be awesome. The thing of playing by mail meant not all measures would be exact on both tables and i don't have enough models for an army of infantry blocks.

I understand what you mean, there are some lists that give me troubles, not so much for beastment which is true they can ambush and destroy my warmachines and stuff but at the end of the day i still keep my faith in the magic, lord and steam tank.
It's not a list that will need so much luck as you actually think too, from the times i when to tournaments i always have abouve 40 points in battles.
Also if only the points for battles counted i'd have won more than half tournaments i have played, i lose most cause my army isn't painted... It's sad but true, i'm lazy and empire is really one army that needs a lot of time to paint.

If i say infantry block do not win the combat is only because i used them and i've seen many people using them, the result is always a quick merciless death. When i say a unit of knights charging them i meant, chosen caos knights, bretonian cavalary, Stuff that has a good bonus or just so many attacks that they can crush nearly anything on the charge. I understand you can deal with cavalary charges if it's an empire or elven cavalary, they are low on attacks and the CR usually will hold and you can pick them one by one if needed. but it would be sutipid fir such units to charge those block, better leave it for those who can do it properly.

I might view the site latter but perhaps someday we could talk on MSN? much easier to share opinions in real time.