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Ravenous
20-11-2007, 10:57
So with all the rumblings that we are getting another $70 book shoved down our throats at some point next year, it brings up many questions as to what exactly are they going to change? This thread is going to be focusing on vehicles.

The current perception on vehicles is that they are either frail point sinks or unstoppable iron gods in the form of skimmers, both are true to a degree, and complete bull to another. As most of us know it is the ones that shout loudest that are often the least informed, and it is a shame they are the ones shaping the game.

Since the start of 4th edition it’s been fairly easy to guess what is going to happen in each book, although sometimes we get a wicked curve ball from time to time.

I for one believe that 5th edition will make tanks very nasty indeed. 4th edition is all about shooting. CC armies have to struggle heavily against most forces as it is almost impossible to get a guaranteed delivery method now, short of the few obvious ones. In other words you will be forced to lose 50% or more of your army just trying to get there.

Making tanks harder to kill will be the start of bringing the game back to a level of balance between CC and shooting. Although I imagine GW will cock it up one way or the other because it’s what they do.

Anyway, on to business!

I believe they will simplify the damage charts into 1 chart, just like the apocalypse one. With one chart it will be easier for people to remember and it will save space in the rulebook.

The damage chart:

1 Shaken
2 Stunned
3 Weapon Destroyed
4 Immobilized
5 Destroyed
6 Explodes!

Modifiers:
Glancing hits: -2

Ap1 weapons: pen

Ordnance: on an “Explodes!” result, the occupants inside count as destroyed

Now for something that will probably come to pass, ‘skimmers moving fast’ will be eliminated. Since the chart has made it harder to destroy ALL vehicles, skimmers will probably get the bum card in the next edition. Now this should mean that they get a heavy points drop but I doubt that will happen.

I’m sure you also noticed that you cannot kill vehicles with a glancing hit, well think about it, a glance isn’t going to scrap a tank in one go, but it probably could mess up engines/tracks as well as weapons systems.

Stacking ‘weapon destroyed’ and ‘immobilized’ will still exist making glancing hits still viable but unlikely means to wreck tanks.

Falcons (or rather holo-fields) and what not will still be fairly powerful even with these rules and it will put them more at par with the heaviest tanks in 40k

I’m still going through the Transport and other vehicle sections, so when I come up with those I will post it.

Ravenous
20-11-2007, 11:14
A second possibility is that glancing hits will just be -1, and skimmers will retain their SMF abilities.

It would make them just as difficult to kill as they are now, but every other vehicle would be more difficult to kill with penetrating hits (glances would remain the same).

Bornhald
20-11-2007, 12:08
Not exactely how it looks in the apocalypse book, but it seems plausable that GW will try and keep it in line with the rules stated there.

thus a list with ( 6 or 12 cant seem to remember) results, you roll on that table and add the modifier and that is it.

that is what seems plausable to me

Jark Irons
20-11-2007, 12:17
this looks kind of good in my eyes...but i think that ordnance will get a +1 mod to represent the heavy shell. one thing is sure, GW is going to keep the modifiers to a minimum according to their streamlining thinking.

stompzilla
20-11-2007, 12:52
This looks like my table! Excellent! I've tried it over the weekend during some BIG games and am going to be putting it to use this week for some 1 vs 1 competitive games. So far though the results are very good.

I have used and prefer the -1 for glancing (Or Necrons are french connection UKed) and the retaining of the SMF rule. Also included are a +1 for open topped (So these cancel each other out for DE skimmers and keep them at the same usefulness as now)

Using the above chart ground vehicles become harder to kill than skimmers but aren't as maneuverable, which is the way it should be. Falcons are the same difficulty to kill (But that's a codex specific thing that can't be fixed by a blanket rules change.) However your ground vehicles stick around for longer to pour fire into them and no-longer seem quite as lacking in comparison.

Anyone else tried this yet?

Bunnahabhain
20-11-2007, 14:53
The problem isn't so much how easy it is to destroy vehicles, but how easy it is to render them useless. Most transports have ways to ignore stunned results, and some ways to reduce immobilised results, but shooting tanks are far too easy to stun.

We have to see some more results on the damage table(s) that allow tanks to fire back- currently only immobilised and weapon destroyed do. Eithe that, or some way to ignore both shaken and stunned results. Maybe take a Ld test on the crews basic Ld (Guard 7, marines 8, Eldar Guardians 7....) to see if they're disclipined enough to carry on fighting despite the impact?

It would be one of the things to reduce the huge gap between monsterous creatures and vehicles.

Smoke launchers should also become multi use. Even the Guard can figure out a few extra smoke grenades cost less than another new chimera....

Flatline
20-11-2007, 16:07
The problem isn't so much how easy it is to destroy vehicles, but how easy it is to render them useless. Most transports have ways to ignore stunned results, and some ways to reduce immobilised results, but shooting tanks are far too easy to stun.


Quite right. Once I get a shaken result on an enemy tank I usually ignore it for the rest of the turn. One simple solution might be to make shaken only affect one weapon, like a mini weapon destroyed.

Being able to shoot ordinance weapons along with other weapons would be nice. Just point up the big gun appropriately. They aren't that much better than other weapons.

Ravenous
21-11-2007, 05:44
Smoke launchers should also become multi use. Even the Guard can figure out a few extra smoke grenades cost less than another new chimera....


I agree with this, the only problem is that while it does not allow you to shoot, some people will use it for assault vehicles (land raiders) and just march marine squads all over the enemy with little resistance.

Although that is how it is in the fluff, it doesnt make for a good game.


Quite right. Once I get a shaken result on an enemy tank I usually ignore it for the rest of the turn. One simple solution might be to make shaken only affect one weapon, like a mini weapon destroyed.

Being able to shoot ordinance weapons along with other weapons would be nice. Just point up the big gun appropriately. They aren't that much better than other weapons.

Its a common tactic called "soft killing" if you render a unit useless for a turn there is no need to continue firing at it.

Again I agree with this, that shaken should only effect 1 weapon, most tanks have a gunner for each weapon, I dont imagine they're all buggered from what shot.

azimaith
21-11-2007, 05:51
A second possibility is that glancing hits will just be -1, and skimmers will retain their SMF abilities.

It would make them just as difficult to kill as they are now, but every other vehicle would be more difficult to kill with penetrating hits (glances would remain the same).
No it wouldn't. It would make them harder to kill.
16% chance to destroy is less than a 33% as they are now.

The damage charts are fine as is, whats wrong is that tracked vehicles *and only tracked vehicles, well okay, maybe them and skimmers who can't SMF* need the boost.

Warped Bob
21-11-2007, 06:24
Splitting up obscured and glancing as two separate modifiers might help as well. I mean if it was set up so that glancing was -2 and obscured -1 it would reduce the randomness of cover and reduce the effectiveness of weapons that can only glance the vehicle in the first place.

Also I would say that skimmers moving fast should count as obscured.

Because I think it is ridiculous that a Dark Eldar Raider has a 50% chance of being blown up when glanced by bolter fire.

Bloodknight
21-11-2007, 06:31
I don't think there is a skimmer which cannot SMF apart from the Monolith and that thing really does not need a survival boost with it ignoring most of the damage results anyway (shaken, stunned, basically weapon destroyed, and immobilized by not crashing) and the shrinking number of heavy weapons in the game.

But tracked vehicles need a boost, correct.

Comrade JC
21-11-2007, 06:39
The only thing I can say that if glancing become a -2 mod and the rending gets changed (see other threads) as rumoured, nids are going to have some trouble with armour. Now, while it makes sense that an organic horde should have touble with tanks (unless the big ones get close) the venom cannon might need a bump to compensate for both changes.

I also think Hull Down really needs to change. The random chance of allwoing glancing only really doens't help much and when playing against nids (which I do all the time) becomes a non-factor as it is glancing hits only anyway. What I would like to see, though it might require a points adjustment, is that hull down (still must cover 1/2 of vehicle) will cause the shot to "miss" (hit the thing in the way) on a 4+. Seems to make logical sense and hull down would then be worthiwhile against nids. However, since it sees to make logical sense I doubt GW will do it:rolleyes:. Failing that an obscured modifer for the table would be good.

And yeah I agree on the Raider thing. Although how much sense does a marine carving through a Leman Russ with bare hands make (from the back, and yes I have done it.)?

logosloki
21-11-2007, 06:50
The problem isn't so much how easy it is to destroy vehicles, but how easy it is to render them useless. Most transports have ways to ignore stunned results, and some ways to reduce immobilised results, but shooting tanks are far too easy to stun.

We have to see some more results on the damage table(s) that allow tanks to fire back- currently only immobilised and weapon destroyed do. Eithe that, or some way to ignore both shaken and stunned results. Maybe take a Ld test on the crews basic Ld (Guard 7, marines 8, Eldar Guardians 7....) to see if they're disclipined enough to carry on fighting despite the impact?

It would be one of the things to reduce the huge gap between monsterous creatures and vehicles.

Smoke launchers should also become multi use. Even the Guard can figure out a few extra smoke grenades cost less than another new chimera....

I too would like to see some sort of leadership in play for shaken results, probabley test at -2 standard leadership for your infantry though to represent that they are under duress.

If they bring in smoke grenades they should bring back throwing grenades.

But the best thing would be to bring back the datafax cards and BS modifiers :angel: (/joking)

Warped Bob
21-11-2007, 06:55
I would like it if vehicles took a bit to "disassemble" from glancing hits.

It makes perfect sense that a Space Marine can't just charge back armor of a tank and hit the magical self-destruct button.

Immobilized and weapon destroyed results should be much more common than destroyed results on vehicles and I fully believe that changing glancing hits so that there is no destroyed results (without other modifiers) is the way to go.

azimaith
21-11-2007, 07:10
I don't think there is a skimmer which cannot SMF apart from the Monolith and that thing really does not need a survival boost with it ignoring most of the damage results anyway (shaken, stunned, basically weapon destroyed, and immobilized by not crashing) and the shrinking number of heavy weapons in the game.

The monolith doesn't ignore any damage results.
It can be shaken or stunned as normal. It can suffer weapon destroyed (which easily makes gauss fluxes crap) and it can be immobilized. Since it can't move over 6" it would never crash anyhow, monolith or not. The power matrix can't be prevented from firing and the gauss flux's should be an example for how vehicle rules should be done.

Despite claims, a monolith isn't actually tons harder to destroy than a land raider. Its biggest benefits of course ignoring melta extra dice. But even then you still penetrate on a 6. I don't see it being so survivable as to be cut out of tracked vehicle bonuses.

Mojaco
21-11-2007, 07:50
How about your chart with the said -1 for glancing, equipment holofields providing another -1 and SMF giving a second-1. This destroys most skimmers on a 5+ (as normal), but eldar ones only one a 6 (easier then now). Granted, since some eldar simply land when immobilised that might cause a problem, but tactics can solve that (keeping your distance from an about to be downed skimmer and such).

And crashed skimmers should auto-entangle, whether they land or move less then 6" or not.

Ravenous
21-11-2007, 08:31
No it wouldn't. It would make them harder to kill.
16% chance to destroy is less than a 33% as they are now.


It would be the same though.

Current Glancing chart:

1. Shaken
2. Shaken
3. Stunned
4. Weapon destroyed
5. Immobilized
6. Destroyed.

Suggested Glancing chart with -1 modifier included:

1.Shaken
2.Shaken
3.Stunned
4. Weapon Destroyed
5. Immobilized
6. Destroyed

It would just make skimmers harder to kill with a pen result.

IG_hopeful
21-11-2007, 09:09
Okay, I do have one smakk question. Will those changes make vehicles harder to kill vs say that one Eldar weapon that makes AV 14 an AV of 12?

Cause thats what bugs me..And is the one thing I wish GW would ditch change.

droidman
21-11-2007, 09:16
Just borrow another rule from apocalypse, use the primary weapon rule to allow it to still shoot it's main weapon.

IG_hopeful
21-11-2007, 09:21
What about giving vehicles structre points?

E.g.: I know LR's aren't Super-Heavies, but maybe give them one structure point? and chage they're (taken) deamage chart to that used for S-H's?

WLBjork
21-11-2007, 10:05
All standard vehicles effectively have 1 SP anyway.



Azimaith, that's rather abbreviated.

Not only does the Monolith lower the effectiveness of weapons with the Melta rule, it also affects the following:

Rending
Lance
Tankhunter Skill
Furious Charge Skill
Vanquisher AT round
Ork Tankbuster Bommz
Burnaz in HTH

There's also a few other things that I can't remember exactly whether they are affected or not (Zzap Guns for example).

Crimson Reaver
21-11-2007, 10:24
Would this also mean that if the roll after modifiers comes out at 0 or a negative number then there is no damage to the vehicle? The main issue I have with the Falcon is that it is really dull to use as it just gets glanced a lot and it then can't shoot. I use my Falcons as my frontline battle tank rather than a delivery system for the "Rending Space Clowns" so no being able to shoot for most of the time does suck. If this was also the case for ground based vehicles when suffering glancing hits for example it would also mean a tank could soak a shot or two that gets through and still be able to fire back at full effectiveness, rather than having to endure a "Soft Kill".

Ravenous
21-11-2007, 10:52
Would this also mean that if the roll after modifiers comes out at 0 or a negative number then there is no damage to the vehicle? The main issue I have with the Falcon is that it is really dull to use as it just gets glanced a lot and it then can't shoot. I use my Falcons as my frontline battle tank rather than a delivery system for the "Rending Space Clowns" so no being able to shoot for most of the time does suck. If this was also the case for ground based vehicles when suffering glancing hits for example it would also mean a tank could soak a shot or two that gets through and still be able to fire back at full effectiveness, rather than having to endure a "Soft Kill".

No it would be the same as the apocalypse rule for their chart:

"You can't go lower then 1"

stompzilla
21-11-2007, 11:26
Ravenous is right and a lot of people are not thinking this through.

The glancing table is exactly the same as now and the penetrating chart is better.

Think about it:

On a glance a skimmer dies 1/3 of the time,
On a glance a tracked vehicle dies 1/6 of the time

On a pen a skimmer dies 1/3 of the time (Due to glancing only and SMF)
On a pen tracked vehicles die 1/3 of the time.

So nothing needs to be nerfed and tracked vehicles become more survivable than skimmers due to shooting but slightly more vulnerable to CC. If this isn't fair and reasonably realistic, i don't know what is.

I tried the chart again last night against an armoured guard list and it worked very well, again.

WarpWhisperer
21-11-2007, 11:46
Despite claims, a monolith isn't actually tons harder to destroy than a land raider. Its biggest benefits of course ignoring melta extra dice. But even then you still penetrate on a 6. I don't see it being so survivable as to be cut out of tracked vehicle bonuses.


Azimaith, that's rather abbreviated.

Not only does the Monolith lower the effectiveness of weapons with the Melta rule, it also affects the following:
Lance


Quite true. Without the AP1 of melta weapons the lance would be severly hampered against the monolith if you couldn't get a destroyed result with a glancing hit, meaning none of the eldar 'main weapons' able to destroy it.

Not the end of the world, I know, but still a little disconcerting.

Ironhand
21-11-2007, 12:34
I very much doubt that GW is going to give ordinary vehicles any of the advantages of superheavies, like stunning by weapon, a save roll for the primary weapon, etc. What they WILL probably do is consolidate the current glancing, penetrating and ordnance damage into a single damage chart, with possibly a "catastrophic damage' chart to roll on if the target is destroyed/

Ravenous
15-01-2008, 00:39
I very much doubt that GW is going to give ordinary vehicles any of the advantages of superheavies, like stunning by weapon, a save roll for the primary weapon, etc. What they WILL probably do is consolidate the current glancing, penetrating and ordnance damage into a single damage chart, with possibly a "catastrophic damage' chart to roll on if the target is destroyed/

I wasn't suggesting that they make it exactly like Apoc, just take the chart and the system for modifiers.

On a side note looking at the current 5th ed rumours it looks like a called it :D

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
15-01-2008, 01:03
my bet:
0 - Nothing Important
1 Shaken
2 Stunned
3 Weapon Destroyed & Shaken
4 Immobilized & Shaken
5 Destroyed
6 Explodes
7+ Big Explosion


Glancing hit: -2 to roll

AP -: -1 to roll

AP 1: +1 to roll

Ordnance: +1 to roll

Oppen-topped: +1 to roll

few notes:
-every shake render one weapon of choice useless for a turn
-SMF as rummored is 5+ cover save
-hull down&SMF is 3+cover save
-only hull down is 5+ cover save

just some thoughts. this way glancing hits cant destroy a tank, unless it is AP1 hit or ordnance