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Dragon Prince of Caledor
20-11-2007, 23:26
I thought about the strengths and weaknesses of my high elves vs. my friends tomb kings. With much thought I came up with this list and used this strategy to immense success. I figured I would list it here for other to either use/fight/improve upon. For 1000pts I took silver helms 14 swordmasters and 20 spearmen. I also took a mage with 2 dispel scrolls and a mounted bsb with star lance. I also took 2 eagles.

The eagles went hierophant hunting and killed him by the end of turn one. ( He had first turn and moved towards me.) Then I waited for him to come into charge range and resisted all his essential incantations. After I had lined up my bsb with one of his chariot units I charged my knights into a chariot unit. The chariots got massacred and i pursued into his other chariots. The eagles distracted the tomb scorpion after running and rallying. My swordmasters and spearmen formed a shield wall around my mage and left no flanks exposed. He charged his horsemen into my silver helms flank. My one silver helm on the flank directed attacks at his other hierophant. I killed him! then his units blew up. After that the swordmasters crunched the spearmen and scorpion.

To sum it up the effectiveness came from my eagles harassing his hierophant. Protecting flanks and resisting his magic. By the beginning of turn 3 he had nothing left. It took me a while to come up with this list but it is great! (atleast for fighting him)
What does everyone else think?
To say the least I was happy that I had a real plan and executed it to perfect standards. Anything I can use to make it better?
:)

Flypaper
21-11-2007, 00:12
Well, it's kinda hard to visualise how this worked with almost no information about your opponent's army. It's also a bit unfair to Tomb Kings to base strategies around a 1K game, as they scale horribly in low points matches. :)

Now, from what you've posted, it seems you're relying on your opponent advancing into counter-charge range, then taking advantage of the fact that he can't flee and you have higher movement. However, you have zero ranged attacks (assuming one mage isn't a real threat). How do you convince him to advance in the first place?

It seems to me that your opponent could've 'won' the first half of the game by doing nothing but shooting with his chariot archers and better protecting his Hierophant. One way or another, you'd be forced to advance before he would. :p

(And, of course, Tomb Kings at higher points values can bring a pretty serious shooting phase. Screaming Skull Catapults are not something you want in LoS to your Swordmasters)

Now, a cavalry blitz should perform OK overall against TK (elite infantry, not so much). However, there's always a risk in running Silver Helms into undead units, particularly if your opponent likes his skeletons numerous or his Tomb Guard well-equipped. SH's simply don't have a huge amount of punch, and it only takes one case of Rubber Lance Syndrome before you get auto-broken.

To say the least I was happy that I had a real plan and executed it to perfect standards.
Hey, don't let my nit-picking get you down! It's a great sensation when a plan works exactly as you visualised it.

My one silver helm on the flank directed attacks at his other hierophant
A quick correction - TK 'wizards' are called Liche Priests. The TK player has to designate one of them as his 'Hierophant', who is the official summoner of the army and whose death leads to crumbling tests. You can't have more than one hierophant. :)

Xzazzarai
21-11-2007, 00:15
If the game went that easy for you, I can't think you and your friends is even near equally skilled.
Or, the dices rolled your way, wich can allways happen as we all know...

Though I think you need to explain alot more if you want others to really be able to take an adventage of your experince...

Get your major point though. =)
Thx for the tip!

Makaber
21-11-2007, 02:09
I actually think Tomb Kings will be one of the armies who stands the best chance about the new High Elves. Strike first will be less of a problem for a low-initiative army that cannot break, and can replenish its own troops. Also, a regiment of 4 Light Chariots will easily reduce the front rank of a small regiment of elite troops with impact hits to such a degree it poses little or no threat in return, and then auto-break the remaining troops due to its US of 12 and Fear.

Neknoh
21-11-2007, 08:48
I'd have to agree with makaber, and not only the Chariots, Tomb Guard and Skeletons will pose a threat, Tomb Swarms will still be very mean to elven warmachines, especially due to a low save and low toughness. We need also remember the fact that the Tombkings have access to Ushabti, which, when charging Spearelves or elven cavalry, can be very, very nasty with their high toughness and high strength attacks.

And that's not the end of it, a Tomb Giant will have a field-day agains the small infantry units of the High Elves, and Screaming Skulls and Archers coupled with incantations will hurt you, a lot.

The one thing I can see working against the Tomb Kings here is the high leadership of the elves, and as such, a certain resistance to being disrupted by fear, and also a very good chance of not being crippled by the cascet of souls.

eleveninches
22-11-2007, 12:09
I actually think Tomb Kings will be one of the armies who stands the best chance about the new High Elves.Unless you take 4 RBT and multi-shot the heirophant's unit, killing him in the first turn. Then loads of dragon princes can charge their line

Dragon Prince of Caledor
22-11-2007, 19:37
I hate to be so harsh but he is undoubtedly the worst tactician alive. With his brettonians (in many peoples opinion) the easiest army to play (for a noob which we all were) He never won once. That was with old high elf rules. His tomb kings have not fared much better (against me) He didnt take any archers in this list. HIs chariot bowmen killed some swordmasters but I was able to cast shield of saphery and that came in handy... The biggest advantage I had was that I am able to guess distances far better than he can when it comes to charges and I have the privelage of being able to flee as a charge response... (which I didnt need to this battle).

To sort of side track I was wondering how I would advance with a high elf army. By advance I mean march up to meet the opponent head on. normally in my other lists I can bolt thrower and magic them so that they have no choice but to fight me. Any game that I have tried to advance things went ill for me. Any tips? Besides protecting my flanks! :)

grhino
24-11-2007, 14:43
Unfortunately, though, you won using an illegal list, as a BSB cannot carry a lance... not even a magic one, especially not if he had a magic banner as well...

Dragon Prince of Caledor
25-11-2007, 01:17
yes he can... In the new high elf book the bsb can take a lance or any non weapon he wants. The book and the people at gw say so.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
25-11-2007, 01:26
A guy from (that also works at) my local gw converted his mounted bsb with a shield and lance. (the banner was on his back)

Von Wibble
25-11-2007, 10:49
Have to disagree with the posters thinking Tomb Kings are tough for HE - nothing could be further from the truth.

Lets analyse the supposed strong points.

Magic - against an army with +2 to dispel rolls not much will get through (who wouldn't take that staff to stop 1 dice spells). Also Tomb kings magic defense is the worst going - no items adding to dispel dice - just the brooch of the great desert. 2D6 S4 hits twice a turn on his chariots will stop them being a threat very quickly.

Chariots - Yes, impact hits are nasty. But magic will whittle them down as mentinoed above. If that fails then all it takes is to place Dragon Princes and chariots in position to charge them first - since you are defending you will charge not them. Yes, they can use shielders set at an angle - but this stops their LOs so they can't charge either (allowing your hill based shooting/ magic to further cripple him).

Fear- High Ld, Lion Banner, Standard of Balance, PG, terror causers. Basically the important parts of the army are immune.

Bone Giant - Nowhere near as good as his rules miht suggest. Say he charges spearmen. Spears cause 1 wound on him. He has 5 attacks (if he charges - not guaranteed), of which lets say 3 hit, then 1, then maybe another. 5 hits if you are slightly lucky. That's 4 wounds and alost combat - the spearmen will whittle him down. And they cost less. Try against elites instead - now the bone giant is taking 2-3 wounds before killing the same amount - he will last 2 rounds. Vs Phoenix Guard he kills only about 2 on charge, and 1 if he's lucky the rest of the time. Bring it on!

Casket of Souls - Just put the amulet of fire or banner of arcane protectino somewhere in los. The whole army (annoyingly) gets the benefit of the MR generated.

Catapults - definately scary. I accept they are a major problem. But so are bret trebuchets, dwarf stone throwers (S5 and reroll scatter:eek:), to name but 2. Its not like the ld check, even with SOTF is that worrying.

Tomb Swarms and Scorps have to be combined well with other elements of the list. They could work but could easily bomb...

Ushabti - hit on 4s and no rank bonus. 4 of them charging get 5 wounds and take 2 in return (thats spearmen only) to gradually get killed.

Ultimately, no single element of the TK list will break through HE units. They have to be combined to an even greater degree than they would against other units. Throw in the fact that the magic used to enable this is going to struggle against high elf defense and winning is very difficult. Don't get me wrong, as both a TK and HE player I know where TKs strengths lie and that the army relies on combined charges and manouvre. But if offered the choice of those 2 armies in a match up I'd take high elves every time.

Dragon Prince - White Lions with Lion banner are the best flank protectors - use woods to prevent chariots from charging until your magic neuters them. Dragon Princes are also good. 2 Eagles wil be good for dealing with war machines. Use an archmage- High, beasts, shadow are all good lores for this opponent. Radiant gem on a commander will provide that useful extra dispel dice (choose heavens so the spell has a major use).

Flypaper
26-11-2007, 02:29
Von Wibble, while those points are all good in isolation, it looks like you're advocating pitting a 3K High Elf list against 1.5K of Tomb Kings. :p

The reality is that the different army styles available within the two lists change the matchups radically. In the case of shooty TK vs. infantry HE, nothing you've said particularly persuades me, for example, that HE magic-as-artillery is enough to outshoot TK arrows and catapults.

...And the +1 to dispel staff, the Amulet of Fire and the Banner of Arcane Protection are not commonly fielded in all-comers lists. If you're teching out a list to a specific opponent, that cuts both ways. :o

eleveninches
26-11-2007, 13:09
As mentionned above, multi-shotting the heirophants unit with 4 RBT's on turn one will almost guarentee victory on its own

Red_Duke
26-11-2007, 13:21
Hmm, if he sticks him in a unit of 10 archers then id agree with you - but say a unit of 20 Skels or Tomb Guard? i think not! thats even suggesting that your opponent would helpfully leave his hierophant out in LOS for you to shoot the stuffing out of him - and against 4 RBT's i know i certainly wouldnt. It would be like sticking a chariot heavy army out in front of a bunch of cannons. Sure, the cannons would likely toast them on turn 1 - but that relies on your opponent being silly enough to stick them out in front of you...

Red_Duke
26-11-2007, 13:27
Id say that at 2k it should be an interesting game - both have lots of variety afterall, and access to some excellent shooting options, and fast moving units. High elves have an advantage of sorts given their access to heavy cav and dragons, but then of course the TK can come back, and have a surprisingly long charge range with magic, plus access to arguably the best catapults in the game (flaming magical skulls kick ass!).

Also, as mentioned unless youre tailoring a list around fighting TK with HE, youre unlikely to go sink a huge amount of points in magic defense when theres a chance you might end up fighting a load of Dwarf and Khorne armies (not to mention Empire Gunlines, and the rightly feared x2 ST and KF on Dragon)

Personally i dont think either side really has a game winning advantage from the word go (unlike say Empire with Stanks and "Arch Lector of Doom" over VC), as both have a solid selection of units to deal with the other side.

Dragon Prince of Caledor
29-11-2007, 00:06
That is true... Admittedly though I only take the dispel scrolls with my mage because i know i am fighting tomb kings. In my 2000 i will always have the 2 scrolls but I will not be as magic resisty! I like casting magic.. dragon mage...:)

WusteGeist
29-11-2007, 05:54
Speaking as some one who has played against the new High Elves and won both times, using Tomb Kings. I say those that call TK the army to take against the new elves are right. I have had no problem beating them soundly. High elf armies I have seen so far are tiny, and can not take a charge of my chariots in there flanks. Sure they have decent anti magic, but its not enough. Specially when your doing a king priest priest priest combo. That magic is getting off just accept it, unless you want to carry 6 dispel scrolls. Sure strike first hurts, but it does not stop the fear outnumber combo. When your holding on snake eyes, odds are you loose.

felixlucena
30-11-2007, 20:14
I Always try to use the Banner of Arcane Protection... more hits to undead units!!!

A13X
08-12-2007, 21:55
I hate to be so harsh but he is undoubtedly the worst tactician alive.

That doesn't help. TK are a very hard army to use at the best of times and insanly hard to master, though I've seen an experienced player own everyone with his list at my local gaming club. Especially in small games where TK players often have to sacrifice almost half their available points on their mandatory heros.

But anyway, well done on your victorty!

sulla
09-12-2007, 11:34
As mentionned above, multi-shotting the heirophants unit with 4 RBT's on turn one will almost guarentee victory on its own They had better, since by the end of turn 2, three tomb scorpions will have popped up and eaten all of those artillery pieces or assassinated all your mages...

4 RBT will average 8 wounds at long range vs t3. Does you opponent reall deploy his hierophant in a 5 model or less unit (in LOS of all 4)? That's the only way you could guarantee a high likelihood of success in the first turn.

DeathlessDraich
09-12-2007, 15:56
I hate to be so harsh but he is undoubtedly the worst tactician alive. :)

I hate to be harsh too but losing a Hierophant in turn 1 - he must be. :p

Incidentally at 1000 pts, TK is not a viable army.

Von Wibble
10-12-2007, 11:41
Von Wibble, while those points are all good in isolation, it looks like you're advocating pitting a 3K High Elf list against 1.5K of Tomb Kings. :p

The reality is that the different army styles available within the two lists change the matchups radically. In the case of shooty TK vs. infantry HE, nothing you've said particularly persuades me, for example, that HE magic-as-artillery is enough to outshoot TK arrows and catapults.

...And the +1 to dispel staff, the Amulet of Fire and the Banner of Arcane Protection are not commonly fielded in all-comers lists. If you're teching out a list to a specific opponent, that cuts both ways. :o

Well, shooty is definately the way to go for TK, yes. But since you state about all comers lists (and I do regularly take banner of arcane protection), I can't see that happening that often. At 2000pts its going to be 1 SSC and 20 archers. The 2 eagles (present in all lists ever made!) deal with the ssc quickly. 20 archers kill about 2 elves a turn. High elf magic will do more than that! At any rate, I wuold never field pure infantry high elves - dragon princes and chariots would be in the force.

EvC
10-12-2007, 11:58
I Always try to use the Banner of Arcane Protection... more hits to undead units!!!

Not in 7th edition, thank goodness...

arff98
11-12-2007, 17:28
They had better, since by the end of turn 2, three tomb scorpions will have popped up and eaten all of those artillery pieces or assassinated all your mages...



¿Why waste 255 in three golem scorpions to kill 4 Repeater bolt throwers? They might get lost or surface on turn 6. Use a unit of ten carrions (240 pts). Go RBT hunting since the first turn, sure they will take a lost of hits in the first turn but once they engage the first RBT, they will most likely overrun and charge the remainig 3 RBT. Thsi 240 point unit will kill 400 point worth oh RBT and end securing one table quarter for a additional 100 points.

arff98
11-12-2007, 18:25
...The 2 eagles (present in all lists ever made!) deal with the ssc quickly...

Eagles have only 2 attacks each, if two eagles succesfully pass the fear test, they will charge and inflict at best 2 wounds on the SSC and they will win the resolution by 3 points. That means the SSC takes the three wouns and one Crewman is left standing.

One crewman standing, makes it posible for the SSC to regain its wound. PLus know your 100 points in eagles are just witing to be rear or flank charged by any troops left defending the SSC.

sulla
18-12-2007, 22:02
¿Why waste 255 in three golem scorpions to kill 4 Repeater bolt throwers? They might get lost or surface on turn 6. Use a unit of ten carrions (240 pts). Go RBT hunting since the first turn, sure they will take a lost of hits in the first turn but once they engage the first RBT, they will most likely overrun and charge the remainig 3 RBT. Thsi 240 point unit will kill 400 point worth oh RBT and end securing one table quarter for a additional 100 points.

Horses for courses. Personally, if I saw an enemy had spent his resourses on a single unit of carrion I wouldn't deploy my artillery in a way that you could overrun. In fact, I'd be tempted to just charge them with a 100pt unit of fast or heavy cav since my elves are good enough in combat to probably tie them up for the entire game or even destroy them. It's a moot point really though, because I doubt I would waste points on even a single overpriced RBT, let alone 4. I haven't used them in my DE for over a year and haven't regretted it yet.)

arff98
20-12-2007, 12:07
In fact, I'd be tempted to just charge them with a 100pt unit of fast or heavy cav since my elves are good enough in combat to probably tie them up for the entire game or even destroy them. [/I]

¿Charge with calvary a unit of Flyers? ¿Who have you been playing against?
In the first turn the flyers can be easily deployed in a table border out of sight and out of range from most chargers( except other flying units)

By the second turn the flyers unint can be behind enemy lines or charging a small unit of archers or a RBT.

Now, if you are going to devote a unit to always face the moving carrion in case they slip and land on your charge range , be my guest. It will be great to have an enemy unit expose their rear or flank to the rest of the army.

Red_Duke
20-12-2007, 13:19
The other killer benefit of Scorps is that once theyve done with the RBT crews, they can get stuck in to other units, while Carrion are a little stuck for targets afterwards. Id probably risk a couple of scorps even against say a unit of elven spearmen, as with 8 attacks in total, they should do reasonably well. Try that with carrion and see how far it gets you...

Fhoen
20-12-2007, 15:15
carrion vs spearmen = dust and some spearmen wondering what the hell they just killed

sulla
21-12-2007, 00:27
¿Charge with calvary a unit of Flyers? ¿Who have you been playing against?
In the first turn the flyers can be easily deployed in a table border out of sight and out of range from most chargers( except other flying units)

By the second turn the flyers unint can be behind enemy lines or charging a small unit of archers or a RBT.

Now, if you are going to devote a unit to always face the moving carrion in case they slip and land on your charge range , be my guest. It will be great to have an enemy unit expose their rear or flank to the rest of the army.

I have 4 units of fast cav with 18" charge range in my army. I seriously doubt there is anyway a single large unit of flyers could ever get behind my lines without moving into their charge arc.

arff98
22-12-2007, 15:04
I have 4 units of fast cav with 18" charge range in my army. I seriously doubt there is anyway a single large unit of flyers could ever get behind my lines without moving into their charge arc.

¿Something like this?

C: High Elves Fast Calvary
RBT: Repeater Bolt Thrower
X: Carrion

--------------------------------High elf border----------------------------





12" CCCC RBT CCCC CCCC RBT CCCC








30"From Elf Border
FO R E S T
X X X X
X X X X
X X X

Dragon Prince of Caledor
24-12-2007, 03:21
Cant really make any sense of that diagram but I do agree first of all that bolt throwers arent all that and that carrion would be pretty useless against my list(s). How would carrion pursue into other bolt throwers ? Odds are that they wouldnt be hitting the bolt thrower in the flank.. which means they would pursue off the table...

arff98
24-12-2007, 20:20
Well carrion have worked pretty well for me agaist bolt throwers and great eagles, if you don´t use these kind of unit, there is always a great use for a US 5 or higher uinit carrions:
Deploy them behind an expensive enemy unit that is likely to loose combat. Once these unit flees it and encounters the US5 or higher unit of carrion it will be automatically destroyed.

About carrions generally hitting bolt throwers in the flank...well it is easier hitting them on he front, head on.

I will charge RBT on the flank only is there something to overrun.

PeG
24-12-2007, 23:42
I also play undead although VC and the HE unit that seems to give most problems is the dragon. Not that it always kills a lot of useful units but it denies me a number of tactical choices. For example against most armies a well equipped vampire with bat form can fly out of his unit and kill characters, warmachines or weaker units almost anywhere on the board.
Also summoning smaller units on strategic parts of the board to force the opponent to redirect a unit to deal with the newly raised unit is often useful.

A strong flying unit with ASF (ie a dragon carrying HE prince) that has the ability to kill my newly raised unit in one turn or to take out my vampire before he strikes back causes some problems with these and some other possible strategies. Any suggestions on how to deal with him? Magic would probably be an alternative unless fighting a list with a lot of magic defence which doesnt seem to be the most common lists