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Benji550
21-11-2007, 00:58
This is a competitive list.

General of the Empire 159
Sword of Sigismund
Armor of Meteoric Iron
Pistol

Captain of the Empire 138
Battle Standard
Griffon Standard
Full Plate Armor

Battle Wizard 95
Rod of Power

2 x (21) Spearmen 276
Shields
Full Command
Detachment: (10) Handgunners
Detachment: (10) Free Company Fighters

(10) Huntsmen 105
Marksman

(20) Greatswords 390
Full Command
Standard of Arcane Warding
Detachment: (10) Crossbowmen
Detachment: (10) Free Company Fighters

(6) Knights of the White Wolf 221
Inner Circle
Full Command
War Banner

Great Cannon 100

Hellblaster Volley Gun 110

Malakai Makaissonís Goblin-Hewer 130

Total: 2000

Fate
21-11-2007, 01:04
Well. It's a very fragile army. Few anti magic, the knights only save at 2+ and are just 6. All characters are on foot, only one cannon and one hellblaster and most units die quickly.

Then again i don't know what you're up against.

Benji550
21-11-2007, 01:56
Well, 120+ models is decent in 2000pts. and the single Battle Wizard will generate five dispel dice on most turns. A larger unit of knights would drain from the masses of soldiers; a trade which an Imperial cannot afford.

Fate
21-11-2007, 03:25
I see your point but 4 wizards means 12 dices which at least means 5 spells per turn and that's not counting bound spells, trust me, just one mage against any spell caster horde isn't nearly enough.

You have 120+ models, well that's a lot of humans... However quantity is not quality and from my experience, quality in warhammer pays off more than enough, i've seen rosters with over 200 models, the result, a wipe out at the 5th turn. If you look at my roster and see my last post you things i'm up against and it's not an easy buisness to kill all that stuff.

Having another cannon wouldn't hurt too, at very least 2 and when i field just a couple of them, i'm almost certain things will go horribly wrong for me, unless i'm facing beastmen.

The thing is, if the opponent bring quality of troops (even if not many) and you bring quantity, it's almost certain you'll lose the game. I usally say that people lose the game at 2 points. The first being the army list they build and the second being the deployment and that is even twice as true for empire.

Benji550
21-11-2007, 04:05
On your commentary regarding magic defence I disagree. When speaking of a certain aspect of an army you consider the most lethal opponent it could face. I see the logic in that and agree with it but only to a certain extent because considering that aspect of the army worthless if it cannot take the very worst is dangerous. In other words, you cannot afford to underestimate an opponent but overestimating them is just as foolish. Your example concerned a HE army with four mages. Not all the games I play will be against HE. Nor will they all be against magic-crazed lunatics. Nor will any opponent worth his salt take so much magic. It would surely leave some other aspect of list lacking and I am sure someone is commenting on their list, telling them to pick up the infantry count because Orcs are going to swarm them.

Secondly, if I were to take your advice I would spend an extra 200+ pts. on magic. Then I sit down to play a game and my opponent is Khorne. Now I have 300+ pts of magic defense, my opponent has no wizards and they have 11 dispel dice. Dam*! That was worth the risk!

Concerning you lack of interest in large numbers I am dissappointed. You should know that among the heroes that inhabit the old world the humans do not rank very high. A general of the empire is not present for his fighting capabilities at winning combats but simply because he costs 80 points and the center of you line becomes Ld 9. Furthermore, with detachments the Imperial army is invincible. The empire is known to sit back and make a gunline that is in danger of charging enemies alone. However, with detachments you want to get charged so it becomes a win-win situation when set up correctly.

der_lex
21-11-2007, 04:55
Personally, I'd go for bowmen attachments instead of crossbowmen/marksmen. Since your infantry will be advancing (it doesn't look like a static list), move-and-shoot will allow you to keep shooting during the advance, plus you can park them in front of your spearmen and use them as screens as well.

I see where you're going with that rod of power on the wizard (save casting dice as dispel dice), but I think you'd still be better off with two dispel scrolls.

The Helblaster isn't that great at long range, so in an aggressive army it isn't that useful anymore. You'd be better off with a unit of Outriders, since they're better shots and easier to get in range. A Rocket Battery or a unit of Pistoliers are viable alternatives as well.

Benji550
21-11-2007, 23:29
I like the bowmen idea but I also have alot of hundgunners and I like sitting back and waiting. The shooty detachments will be parked in front of the larger units and use the detachments as bodybags.

Fate
22-11-2007, 01:25
It's true that having magic like that will lack in the combat since there will be no fighting characters, but i belive that it's rewarding to see magic blasing through the enemy ranks while he has no way to stop the magic and thus have buchered army by the time he reaches you and become easy pickings for weaker units.
Also like i've been able to testify on the many tournaments i've entered, it's better to have 300+ pts that won't be doing nothing in a game against khorne, than having 1000+ pts destroied by magic in 2 to 3 turns of magic eventually unfolding in a wipe out without chances to fight back.

Also the empire generals are not for giving leadership except to warmachine so they won't flee. The empire generals are for profile changes against enemy generals and finishing them off easly enough (thanks to van horstmann's speculum). There is no solid empire lines, heck, there isn't anything solid in empire safe for the steam tank and cavalary. Detachements are overrated, i can negate detachments anytime and so can any good general, i've done, and many people done it to me, it's the easiest trick on the book, get some fliers and some decent cavalary, a lord on a dragon and take them by the flanks, also use skirmishers to move along the woods and charge the front but instead of the main unit, charge the detachement, they'll be pretty much dead and then overrun to the back of the enemy. Thing is, there is so many way to counter detachments that it's not even worth that much to field them.

Benji550
22-11-2007, 04:27
Yes, but how do you flank something that has no flank? You obviously do not know how to use detachments and nor do the people you have played against. Detachments are not good because they can support-charge, counter-charge and support-fire. They are good because no other army can support-charge, counter-charge or support-fire. A good example would be when Hannibal's elephants charged Scipio's checkerboard pattern infantry and the men simply stepped out of the elephants' ways when they saw one coming. Simply put, the elephants might have been the best in the world but if they could not charge the enemy, then they were useless. In the same sense, an Empire Army that uses detachments to their fullest needs not consider the fact that the enemy will probably be more skilled in CC because detachments mean that CC skills are less important and that the unit sizes, the BSB, and the proximity to the general are much more important.

Fate
23-11-2007, 02:46
Oh trust me, they have flanks, and besides, things go like this. If a unit of khorne chosen caos knights charge, they don't even mind the counter charge as it won't kill anything and will still kill many units, the enemy will flee and they will trample them.
The same goes for most of brets cavalary.
A Stank.
Kroxigors.

I could continue to give examples but you get my point. Detachments... They simply are not worth the points for me, nor infantry for all that matters.

alextroy
23-11-2007, 05:00
Detachments are great against Bret cavlary. They lose alot of CR when they lose their rank bonus from a counter-charge, and everyone knows that Brets who don't break you on the charge are in bad shape.

As for Stanks, Kroxigors and Chosen Khrone Knights, noboby wants to be charged by such killy opponents. If your opponent doesn't need ranks to break you, then Detachments won't make a difference in the combat.

Fate
24-11-2007, 02:56
Ah, alex is begging to see my point. The point is, you don't need ranks, you need something that will break anything on charge and then your detachments will be worthless. Also a bret cavalary will most likely do the same, specially the grail knights. You see, 14 attacks at 3+ and 2+ then another 7 attack at 4+ and 4+, now join banner and warbanner and i'm very confident that even without ranks the bret player will have about 10 CR points. Course other cavalary units might not be as good, but if they pack a character inside, then it's more than enough to make some good damage to break nearly any infantry. The problem of the lance formation is not the rank on 3 models but all the attacks you manage to make.

That's how i play... Me and my friends for all that counts. If i charge, i'm pretty much sure you'll die. It always works that way. Quallity pays off!

Benji550
24-11-2007, 05:17
Well Fate, if you would bother to open the Empire codex you would see that the unit of greatswords In my army has 11 CR points with one detachment flank charge when they are recieving.
I hope you never find someone who knows how to use detachments.

Furthermore, do not tell me what the Grail Knights will do because you act as though if the entire unit will reach the battle line. I would be surprised if anyone would let you bring them across the field.