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Earlandir
13-09-2005, 22:31
This is the first tournament I have ever entered with my skaven. Please tell me your opion of my list and what I should change. Thanks :)

Grey Seer: Warpstone Amulet and Warpstone Charm = 285

Plague Priest: Flail and Liber Bubonicus = 114

Warlock Engineer: Blades, Condenser, Accumulator, Storm Daemon, and Dispel Scroll = 135

Warlock Engineer: Blades, Condenser, Accumulator, and Dispel Scroll = 110

25 Clanrats: Command = 150

25 Clanrats: Command = 150

24 Clanrats: Command = 145

24 Clanrats: Command = 145

60 Clanrat Slaves = 120

25 Plague Monks: Command and Umbranner = 250

10 Jezzails = 200

2 Ratling Guns = 120

1 Warpfire Thrower = 75

1999 Points

11 Power Dice (and bound spell)
7 Dispel Dice (and 2 dispel scrolls)

I should have decent enough movement, magic, shooting, and combat I would think. Please post your opinions, thanks in advance

Hogdogz
14-09-2005, 01:53
It looks like a well rounded army but one thing is that 25 clan rats arent the way to go you need more in the units to make them effecient like 30 like you used to have them when i couldnt beat you but now a scorpian of mine can take a unit on for the whole game almost.

and on another note 7 dispel dice, +1 to dispel and 2 dispel scroll i think someones over doing it. you could take out the scroll and staff to pump out more clannys.

"teh suxxor" earlandir says

Earlandir
14-09-2005, 06:40
Not to be rude Mr. Hogdogz, but I would hardly agree that 7 dispel dice and 2 scrolls is over doing it for magic resistance in a 2k Tournament. If I was to add more clanrats, I would remove something other than my magic defence so that I can counter armies such as TK and DE. Units of 25 clanrats still get the job done but allow more diversity among my horde of rats.

Sinew
14-09-2005, 10:29
2036 Points (Not sure what to remove yet) I think you should drop the Staff of Sorcery; as it's way over priced IMO.


I would hardly agree that 7 dispel dice and 2 scrolls is over doing it for magic resistance in a 2k Tournament I think you are correct. In last year's grand tournament I played 2 High Elf armies with 11+D3 power dice per turn, a Tzeentch army could have more.

I think you should think about turning some of your clan rats into slaves. Having some expendable, cheap troops that you can throw away without fear of panicking your line is very useful. Their only 2 points a model so units of 36 or even 40 are viable. This is how I field my goblin troops and they really give you a healthy respect for static combat resolution. In addition the more units you have, the longer your line will be, and the harder your opponent will find it to guard his flanks.

Earlandir
14-09-2005, 17:59
Now that I think of it, that sounds like a gret idea. If I drop the staff of sorcery, eye of the horned rat (which is almost useless) and the gutter runners, I could add 60 slaves and have 6 points left over. Should I field my slaves in groups of 10, 15, 20, or 30? I've never really used them much before. (I edited the post of my army list with these new changes) Also, are the 10 jezzails as important as I've heard? They are the only thing on the list I haven't bought yet, and is there anything else I can get for 200 points that's as effective as them? Something a little cheaper in $ perhaps? ;)

meowser
14-09-2005, 20:34
Slaves units must be 20+... make them 30 at most, and have 1 for each clanrat unit. drop the magic items.
i think youll be able to manage without jezzails, with 4 warp lightnings a turn... for $$ cheapness, get a box of plastic night runners and use them as gutter runners,
or get another plague monk box and convert 8 PCB's (assuming you existing unit is plastic and you didnt use any of the 4 censer bits)

Cyrush
14-09-2005, 20:43
Use the slaves in unit of 20 (minemum) because there there for mainly baiting and screening, this also adds to your monuverability (sheer number of units) and deployment(placing 3 units of slaves reveels nothing, but by then you can work out his battle plan).

Earlandir
14-09-2005, 23:23
Alright, those are all useful ideas for conversions, especially the plague monks into plague censer bearers. So fielding my slaves in 3 blocks of 20 would be best it seems. Also, if I am to cut out my jezzails and perhaps some magic items, what would you suggest I replace them with? Gutter runners would probably be one thing, but what do you suggest to add?

Sinew
15-09-2005, 11:31
Depends what you want to do (helpful answer eh?). I don't agree 100% that you would find your Jezzails a waste of points, they're pretty good as a rule which is why every Skaven player takes them in bucket loads. However you do have maxed magic (pretty much) and two ratling guns; it will soften the look of your army a lot if you drop the Jezzails and take something else. You may not care, but some Skaven players are anxious to avoid being seen to play the SAD (Skaven Army of Doom) which is always maxed clan Skryre stuff.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not accusing you of playing this army (the Plague Monks and Warpfire thrower, not to mention the lack of any Warp Lightning Cannons demonstrate you're not playing the Tournament SAD build) but dropping the Jezzails would quash any doubts in this area. Therefore I'd suggest replacing them with either Gutter Runners, Rat Swarms (these are really excellent for guarding your flanks and slowing down enemy units) or maybe Plague Censor Bearers.

Earlandir
15-09-2005, 23:30
ya, besides the $ cost, bringing 10 jezzails to the field will always make people think of a SAD list. And now that I think of it, the only good thing jezzails have ever helped significantly with in my proxy battles was the ability to bring down large targets (giants/dragons mainly). Would you suggest two units of 6 gutter runners and perhaps a staff of sorcery, or three units of 5? I was also wonering if the screaming bell is at all worth 200 points. I like the model and the fluff it adds, plus the power dice are helpful, but is it worth it? And lastly, I have tried using my 4 Rat Ogres in my 2k battles, but they never seem to be useful. Is there a trick to using them or do they suck? Thx :D

Brother Edwin
16-09-2005, 18:16
This is the first tournament I have ever entered with my skaven. Please tell me your opion of my list and what I should change. Thanks :)

Grey Seer: Warpstone Amulet and Warpstone Charm = 285

Plague Priest: Flail and Liber Bubonicus = 114

Warlock Engineer: Blades, Condenser, Accumulator, Storm Daemon, and Dispel Scroll = 135

Warlock Engineer: Blades, Condenser, Accumulator, and Dispel Scroll = 110

25 Clanrats: Command = 150

25 Clanrats: Command = 150

24 Clanrats: Command = 145

24 Clanrats: Command = 145

60 Clanrat Slaves = 120

25 Plague Monks: Command and Umbranner = 250

10 Jezzails = 200

2 Ratling Guns = 120

1 Warpfire Thrower = 75

1999 Points

11 Power Dice (and bound spell)
7 Dispel Dice (and 2 dispel scrolls)

I should have decent enough movement, magic, shooting, and combat I would think. Please post your opinions, thanks in advance

Your magic is not very extreme, you might as well have warlord and 3 enginners, that way you have Ld 10 and gurante 3.5 warp lightnings.
You are missing essentual tunnel teams, both for scouting to march block and killing war machines.
Ratlings are far better than fire throwers.
2 dispel scrolls is pitiful, you will be out magiced. A magic heavy VC army will just summon a unit of zombies behind your line and danse them in. Magic heavy armys will be able to out last you in the magic war.
A unit of 60 slaves is pointless, take multaple units of 20 or 21.
I would give the seer regeneration, useful for challenging dragon lords.
You have only one hard hitting unit, and not much of a gunline, so I cant really tell if you are going to be offensive or defensive.

What if you fight brettonians? You cant stop him just running up to you and smashing through you, you have only one unit for misdirecting.

Make your units 24 if they will have a character in.


Use a skaven SAD. 2 Wrp lightning cannons. Grey seer and 3 warplock engineers, and 5 ratling guns, with around 20 jezzails.

He wont fit all that in 2,000points. More relistic is 4 wizzards, 3-4 ratlings, 1-2 cannons and 0-10 jezzails, with the mandotory swarms slaves and tunnel teams.

Ganymede
16-09-2005, 18:53
Seperate your slave unit into three units of 20.

Also, you don't need that much magic. Take the Liber Bubonicus off of your priest and remove two jezzails so you can take a coupler censerbearers.

Brother Edwin
16-09-2005, 18:56
Bands of power, adtional hand weapon and warpstone armlet is good on a plage priest. Especally when he is in a unit with banner of burning hatred. What other hero has 5 strength 8 re-rollable attacks and a 4+ ward save for only 124points?

Earlandir
16-09-2005, 20:26
I don't want to make a SAD army, because then if I do well it's because of the army. Also, when I put 60 slaves, I was planning to put them in 3 units of 20, one unit of 60 is pretty pointless :)

Grey Seer: Warpstone Amulet and Warpstone Charm = 285

Plague Priest: Flail and Liber Bubonicus = 114

Warlock Engineer: Blades, Condenser, Accumulator, Storm Daemon, and Dispel Scroll = 135

Warlock Engineer: Blades, Condenser, Accumulator, and Dispel Scroll = 110

25 Clanrats: Command = 150

25 Clanrats: Command = 150

24 Clanrats: Command = 145

24 Clanrats: Command = 145

20 Clanrat Slaves = 40

20 Clanrat Slaves = 40

20 Clanrat Slaves = 40

20 Clanrat Slaves = 40

24 Plague Monks: Command = 209

2 Ratling Guns = 120

2 Warpfire Thrower = 150

3 Gutter Runners: Tunelling, poison, and Champion = 63

3 Gutter Runners: Tunelling, poison, and Champion = 63

1999 Points

11 Power Dice (and bound spell)
7 Dispel Dice (and 2 dispel scrolls)


Alright, I made some changes which should make the list atleast a little better. I don't have my book with me at the moment so I can't change too much. Changing the plague priest to bands of power/warpstone amulet with banner in my plague monks would probably be a good idea, but it would be a lot more points (if I gave warpstone amulet to priest, then I would need regeneration on my grey seer, so with the banner and everything would be about 100 points) and I would lose a dispel dice. The gutter runners shouild be able to deal with wra machines (especially the TK casket/SSC combo I fight against a lot), and the extra 20 slaves should add a bit more to my swarming technique. I appreciate the ideas, but I really don't want to field 3+ warlocks, 10 jezzails, and 2 WLC :( The tournament I'm going to is only 16 people from my local store and won't be super competitive.
Though I wouldn't mind maybe taking off the liber bubonicous like suggested by a previous post and maybe something else in exchange for some plague censer bearers. Are they worth getting and if so, how many must you field to work?

Ganymede
16-09-2005, 21:22
Six censer bearers are enough to make an impact. They are strong enough to mow through most 5+ save, toughness 3, WS 2 units, even with full ranks and standard.

In either case, I would take the champions out of your tunneling teams. THe last thing you want when sniping a character is for the wizard you are fighting to declare a challenge and cut your ttacks down by a third.

Brother Edwin
16-09-2005, 21:43
Agred, you only really need 3 naked tunnelers.

Your list looks very good, not overpowerd yet still capable of beating many different opponents.

The only thing I would now change is the plage priests gear, powerbands and additional h.weapon or flail is good, and gives you 25 points for another scroll which will help a lot vs VC and magic heavy armys. You will never get to use pestilent breath, especally since he needs to get 8 on two dice.

My last suggestion would be:

Lose: liber bubonicus, champions and poisond on the tunnelers.

Get: Power bands on the priest, regeneration on seer and another dispel scroll or armulet on priest. If it is a 6 game torny you will on average lose the grey seer to the armlet which will lose you that game.

Good luck and tell us how it went.

Earlandir
16-09-2005, 23:29
Thank you brother Edwin. Your reply seemed to actually relate to my plea of not having a SAD army and had very useful information ;) Ok, hopefully this list will now be unstoppable

Grey Seer: Twisted Crown of Horned Rat and Warpstone Charm = 310

Plague Priest: Extra hand weapon, warpstone amulet, and bands of power = 124

Warlock Engineer: Blades, Condenser, Accumulator, Storm Daemon, and Dispel Scroll = 135

Warlock Engineer: Blades, Condenser, Accumulator, and Dispel Scroll = 110

25 Clanrats: Command = 150

25 Clanrats: Command = 150

24 Clanrats: Command = 145

24 Clanrats: Command = 145

20 Clanrat Slaves = 40

20 Clanrat Slaves = 40

20 Clanrat Slaves = 40

20 Clanrat Slaves = 40

24 Plague Monks: Command = 209

2 Ratling Guns = 120

2 Warpfire Thrower = 150

3 Gutter Runners: Tunelling = 45

3 Gutter Runners: Tunelling = 45

1998 Points

10 Power Dice (and bound spell)
6 Dispel Dice (and 2 dispel scrolls)

My plague priest is now much more threatening, though the loss of a dispel dice is painful. I chose the 4+ ward save with a 1/6 chance of losing 120VP (unless he dies anyway) over the dispel scroll. Unless I get negative feedback on this I'll stick with his survivability in duels. Thx for the help on my list everyone :D

Brother Edwin
16-09-2005, 23:33
It looks cool, both fun to play against yet also something to be cautious of.

KuDriM
17-09-2005, 01:05
Hi! I will try to give you some ideas about you list Earlandir. I hope that they will be useful to you (and I hope to write this post with few mistakes in my poor english :D )
I would reduce the clanrats units size to 20. They will be able to do the same functions than 25 rats units. Then, you can spend these leftover points in 5 or 6 Plague Censer Bearers that can be useful against strong enemy units (like small units of heavy troops).
I think that can be a good idea the fact of include a Rat Swarm and several small units of Night Runners to block big units and hunt enemy wizards, respectively. One or two Giant Rat Packs can be used to redirect the dangerous enemy units (these wonderful units of devil animals called war horses :D )

Greetings

Rathstar
17-09-2005, 14:41
Hi,

Very nice army and very simular to mine (I use 2 units of Giant rats and Plague Censer Bearers instead of your 4th clanrat and 4th slave units).

I would advise against reducing the clanrats to 20. With only leadership 6 for the general you need to keep your ranks as long as possible. Also concentrated magic and shooting could reduce the unit the grey seer is in a fraction of it's former self in one turn forcing you to take the panic test on a worrying 7 or 8. If the grey seer runs it could be all over.

Good luck in your tournament and lets us know how it went.

Rathstar

KuDriM
17-09-2005, 18:26
To prevent panic checks of the principal units you can use runners like a life shield and stop shooting and magic. If you use them of this form, it's difficult that general's unit have to check due to 25% kills.

PD: sorry for my bad english

Ganymede
17-09-2005, 18:31
but watch out, small units of night runners can still panic nearby units if they are wiped out, and even three fleeing nightrunners can still panic a weapon team or skulking wizard.

Brother Edwin
17-09-2005, 19:51
but watch out, small units of night runners can still panic nearby units if they are wiped out, and even three fleeing nightrunners can still panic a weapon team or skulking wizard.

True, and most often you will need Los with your enginners.

Night runner units are best for fleeing from things.

KuDriM
17-09-2005, 21:56
Sorry, but I'm desagree with you.
These small units of night runners don't have to be near to clanrats to prevent shooting against them. They only have to be in the best place to block the vision range of the shooting unit or the wizard. This, in a lot of cases, implies that night runners can be in front of the enemy units; not near of our own units.
I'm agree in the fact that runners can produce a panic check in a weapon team or a wizard; but, if enemy army can shoot us, we won't let be a wizard out of a unit or a weapon team far of clanrats, either (and then we can use the leadership modifiers).
I have used these small units of runners in many battles against "heavy fire armies" and they have always been useful in this aspect.

Greetings

DeathMasterSnikch
17-09-2005, 22:04
Sorry fro not continuing the current 'night runner discusion'

But in regards to the army list id merge teh two 25 clanrat units into a main block.
there rank bonus will plumet if you have small clanrat units. I never take a clanrat unit with less than 30 models.

meowser
18-09-2005, 07:36
disclaimer: i am big on plastic and trying to get tournament skaven as far from the SAD image as possible. i think youre pushing it w/ 2 ratling guns and 2 warpfire throwers (although you get style points for actually using wft)

this is what i think you should change

greys seer w/ foul pendant- 265 pts
- the warpstone amulet is too risky with a 250+ pt lord. the charm isnt worth the points

plague priest w/ 2nd hand weapon, bands of power - 99 pts
- he doesnt need a ward save if hes not the general and/or doesnt have a plague censer, keep him cheap since he will be in your PM units which is already 250 pt...

2 warplock engineers w/ blades, condensers, accumulators, 1 w/ storm daemon & 1 w/ dispell scroll = 220 pts
- again, spread out magical items and keep heroes cheap... aim for 500 pts... 600 if you're using a seer for total character costs.

2 x 25 clanrats w/ command= 300 pts (i usually have my wle out of units for 360 LOS)
2 x 20 clanrats w/ command= 250 pts (because we can do this to get more points)
1 Ratling Gun, 1 Warpfire Thrower = 135 pts (moving beyond the infantile crutch that is weapons teams)
4 x 20 slaves = 160 pts (perfect)

2 rat swarms = 90 pts - these are mandatory and are great for tying stuff up. they can be easily made with the plastic rats from the plague monk sprue (you get 16/box, and you only need 5/base... 3 rat swarms per box basically, and you only ever need 5 unless you play moulder appendix or zombie pirates)

25 plague monks, 2nd hw, command, banner of burning hatred = 250 pts (this unit is unstoppable with the plague priest)
7 Tunnel Runners = 105 pts (use plastic night runners with capes and two fighting claws... you'll only have enough for 4 from the box so do the other 3 with sword/dagger
7 Plague Censer Bearers = 119 pts

DeathMasterSnikch
18-09-2005, 15:18
Im probly more against SAD that you and i find no problem with 2 WFT and 2 ratling guns.

WFT in no way contriibute to a SAD army. His list looks ok although it is pretty skyre heavy in some ways.

Brother Edwin
18-09-2005, 19:49
Sorry fro not continuing the current 'night runner discusion'

But in regards to the army list id merge teh two 25 clanrat units into a main block.
there rank bonus will plumet if you have small clanrat units. I never take a clanrat unit with less than 30 models.

Why? He would have a 50 man expensive unit which is asking for a calvery charge. It would have only one weapon team and do half the things.

Brother Edwin
18-09-2005, 19:51
Sorry, but I'm desagree with you.
These small units of night runners don't have to be near to clanrats to prevent shooting against them. They only have to be in the best place to block the vision range of the shooting unit or the wizard. This, in a lot of cases, implies that night runners can be in front of the enemy units; not near of our own units.
I'm agree in the fact that runners can produce a panic check in a weapon team or a wizard; but, if enemy army can shoot us, we won't let be a wizard out of a unit or a weapon team far of clanrats, either (and then we can use the leadership modifiers).
I have used these small units of runners in many battles against "heavy fire armies" and they have always been useful in this aspect.

Greetings

If the 5man night runner unit gets wiped out it will panic clanrats within 4.

DeathMasterSnikch
18-09-2005, 19:59
Because if you have 25. then 7 or so casualties and youv lost a point of leadership. Rank bonus is a vital part of Skaven armies. And if you fear cavaly charges then simply take a BSB in the unit of 50 with SSOHR id like to see cavalry outnumber clanrats. :p well no id hate it.i would be scared by it. But still you see waht im getting at dont ya?

Earlandir
18-09-2005, 20:05
Alright, I tested out my list against my TK friend and won with a minor victory, ehich is better than I normally do. The warpfire throwers were nearly useless, my grey seer, though he killed the bone giant with the first spell he cast (9+ Warp Lightning with 12 hits), did almost nothing else except add 2 dispel dice (without death frenzy he has limited use). I used 6 censer bearers in place of a few clanrats and they were insane. I flank charged a block of skeletons led by his TK, and the 6 censer bearers did 13 wounds (3 from toughness tests), which turned his 25 skeleton unit into about 5 skeletons after combat resolution. Tunellers were very unlucky and failed fear tests on all three attempts to charge his liche... but that doesn't matter...

Anyways, the low leadership of the grey seer seemed to be a significant problem. I was wondering if I could vastly improve my army by changing grey seer to warlord and cutting the warpfire throwers. It's my first time using warlord so my equipment choice might suck...



Warlord: Great Weapon, Warpstone Armour, Enchanted Shield, and Twisted Crown of the Horned Rat = 191

Plague Priest: Extra Hand Weapon, Warpstone Amulet, and Bands of Power = 124

Warlock Engineer: Blades, Condenser, Accumulator, and 2x Dispel Scroll = 135

Warlock Engineer: Blades, Condenser, Accumulator, and 2x Dispel Scroll = 135

25 Clanrats: Command = 150

25 Clanrats: Command = 150

24 Clanrats: Command = 145

24 Clanrats: Command = 145

20 Clanrat Slaves = 40

20 Clanrat Slaves = 40

20 Clanrat Slaves = 40

20 Clanrat Slaves = 40

26 Plague Monks: Command and Banner of Burning Hatred = 206

2 Ratling Guns = 120

3 Gutter Runners: Tunelling and Poison= 51

3 Gutter Runners: Tunelling and Poison= 51

6 Plague Censer Bearers = 102

3 Rat Swarms = 135

2000 Points

6 Power Dice (and bound spell)
4 Dispel Dice (and 4 dispel scrolls)


The two things that I'm most unsure of his whether or not to still use bands of power (my magic will be so weak that they will have plenty of dispel dice) and whether or not to use umbranner or banner of burning hatred (4+ ward save will be very helpful if they notice plague monks are my main unit).

Brother Edwin
18-09-2005, 20:06
Because if you have 25. then 7 or so casualties and youv lost a point of leadership. Rank bonus is a vital part of Skaven armies. And if you fear cavaly charges then simply take a BSB in the unit of 50 with SSOHR id like to see cavalry outnumber clanrats. :p well no id hate it.i would be scared by it. But still you see waht im getting at dont ya?

Panic at Ld 8 on a cheap 140pt unit. Your version however would be a 280 point unit. Plus in combat the 25man unit is just as good as the 50 man unit since it outnumbers most things, so you are paying 140 points for nothing.

Also 9 must be killed to remove the rank.

Brother Edwin
18-09-2005, 20:08
Your new army is OK but your magic now does nothing, and skaven magic it its main strength. If you are takeing a warlord then have 3 enginners.

I think the army you had a few posts back was the best.

Sinew
19-09-2005, 10:09
I agree with Brother Edwin, your former list was more competitive.

The warpfire throwers were nearly useless Tomb kings are the worst army to use WFTs against, I'd give them another try against an opponent who isn't immune to psychology! The ability to do an auto panic test on any unit suffering one casualty makes them excellent, but obviously Undead ignore this ability. Also remember that they can hurt ethereals.

Anyways, the low leadership of the grey seer seemed to be a significant problem. I think including a warlord won't make that much of a difference here; it only gives you +1 Ld. Against Tomb Kings horde armies can have a hard time, because they can cause panic without any regard to the size of your units. That means armies like yours which are normally very resilient to panic start having to take tests (and at -1Ld if he has skulls of the foe) and obviously failing some. This is counterbalanced by some weaknesses in the TK list (eg the Heirophant rule) and you just have to take it on the chin and move on. I think your newly drafted list is probably better against Tomb Kings (though the loss of magical power WILL hurt) but worse against other opponents. Stick with your previous list in the tournament. :)

KuDriM
19-09-2005, 21:12
I'm agree with brother Edwin, to include more than 25 models in a clanrats unit is useless. A 50, 80 or 250 models unit will have the same combat modifiers that a 20 or 25 models unit can have: 3 rows, standard and numeric superiority.
If you are including bigger units, all that you are getting is to have a bigger flanks to be charged by enemy units.

Greetings.

PD: oh, and Brother Edwin is telling the truth when he said "I think the army you had a few posts back was the best". It's only my opinion.

Earlandir
20-09-2005, 02:44
Ya, you guys were right. I played TK again with my warlord army and noticed the flaws in my new list. my magic was gimped, my magic defence was not too bad (4 scrolls really help), and my leadership was awesome, but it didn't do nearly as well. I'll switch back to the grey seer list, but i really want to add 6 plague censer bearers because they kicked ass both games :) would you suggest cutting the 2 warpfire throwers for the censer bearers? btw thx for the advice, my old list was a lot better

Ganymede
20-09-2005, 04:43
One distinction I would like to point out. Taking a warlord over a grey seer means you can take one or two extra units. THat can be a great difference.

TO be honest though, i field a grey seer too.

Sinew
20-09-2005, 09:47
would you suggest cutting the 2 warpfire throwers for the censer bearers? I wouldn't, but that's mainly because I love WPTs! I haven't played against Plague Censor Bearers so I can't really comment on them, but when I play Skaven with my Orcs the WFTs scare me a lot more than the Ratling Guns. Any army that doesn't have expensive troops will fear the panic test that the WFT inflicts. Also, the WFT are part of the elements which detract from the image of a SAD player. If you did decide to drop a WFT, I'd drop one and one Ratling Gun as well rather than both WFTs.