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View Full Version : Forcing a Re-Roll... of a re-roll?



Kotobuki
13-09-2005, 23:45
There's a couple of very nice pieces of kit Bretonnian characters can get thier hands on (and I'm sure there's probably very similar items in other armies inventories) that cause re-rolls of armor saves. One piece (Sword of Carcassone), causes re-rolls of successful armor saves, the other (Gromril Great Helm) allows the re-roll of a failed armor save.

Say someone bearing the SoC attacks someone wearing the GGH. He scores a wound, and the defender makes his initial armor save, he now has to re-roll his successful save (due to SoC), and fails. Does he get to re-roll his now failed save using the rules of the GGH? Say the SoC causes a wound, and the armor save is failed (SoC has not yet forced a re-roll), my GGH now lets me re-roll that failed save, and it's successful. Now that I have successfully made the armor save (using the GGH re-roll), can the SoC force to to re-roll my now successful save with its special rule?

I know there is the 'Can't re-roll a die more than once' general rule... but isn't that generally intended to keep people from putting two pieces of equipment together that would allow you to re-roll, say... a failed leadership test... then re-roll it again if you still failed? Or to keep people from saying "I get to 're-roll a failed roll to hit'... if I miss again, it's a failed roll, I get to re-roll it again" Does that still apply here, though... even though the effects of the re-rolls are opposite? Obvisouly you couldn't end up in a loop, because each item could only force a single re-roll... but can they BOTH get the re-roll?

Alco Engineer
13-09-2005, 23:57
I think that if it goes one way then the other it makes sense. So if you re-roll to pass and then re-roll to fail so long as each reroll is only doen once it makes sense. I think you're on the money with you interpretation of the reroll. It is to stop cheesy players re-rolling the same dice over and over til they're successful. It makes an interesting point tho...

Arnizipal
14-09-2005, 00:35
Thos question pops up every once in a while. It has been explained in a an Anual IIRC.

Using your example the character with the Gromril Great Helm would first take his armoursaves, and then reroll the ones that failed. After this the Sword of Carcassonne would force him to reroll any susccesful save.

Major Defense
14-09-2005, 01:13
You simply *can't* re-roll a re-roll. The one item makes you re-roll successful armor saves and the other lets you re-roll failed armor saves. So I would roll my saves and then re-roll them all based on the rules of those two items. The wackyness of this situation does not let you ignore the fact that you can't re-roll a re-roll, nor does it allow you to choose when one item's effect happens before or after another's.

Unseeing Eye
14-09-2005, 01:22
I would say you have to re-roll the passes and the failures ie everything. Since that won't effect the overall results, just say they cancel each other out.

Makaber
14-09-2005, 04:01
It's really not that hard. You reroll the ones that succeeded and the ones that fail, witch in principle means rerolling all the saves once. So effectivly, they cancel each others out, unless you take pleasure in rolling your dice twice.

Festus
14-09-2005, 05:55
Hi

I wish it would have been so simple, but GW in its infinite wisdom choose not to, unfortunately:

cf. Q&A, p. 118 (Armour of Damnation Question)

Greetings
Festus

T10
14-09-2005, 08:19
There are some rulings that GW come up with that are really bad, but which I grudgingly accept because it sets a standard for dealing with awkward situations.

This is not one of them.

GW has taken a perfectly straight-forward situation and made a mess out of it. They are not simply contradicting their own rules but actually BREAKING them!

The "re-roll success vs re-roll failure" is resolved extremely simply by simply following the standard procedure and rolling the dice as instructed. As long as you bear in mind that any die cannot be re-rolled more than once then you can't go wrong.

-T10

Tarax
14-09-2005, 10:52
It's really not that hard. You reroll the ones that succeeded and the ones that fail, witch in principle means rerolling all the saves once. So effectivly, they cancel each others out, unless you take pleasure in rolling your dice twice.

Although I agree with the first part, the second part does not stick. You don't cancel out the re-rolls. That would mean that dice would come up on a set number. But it's random.
On 3 dice you could roll: 1 3 5; and the second time: 2 3 4 or 1 4 6 or ...

Depending on your armour save you could get more or less unsaved wounds.

T10
14-09-2005, 12:45
No, it does NOT mean that the dice will come up on a set number.

What you do is the following.

- Roll saves and split dice into two groups: failed (F1) and saved (S1).
- Reroll failed saves (F1) and split the dice into two groups: failed rerolls (F2) and saved rerolls (S2)
- Reroll saves (S1) and split the dice into two groups: failed rerolls (F2) and saved rerolls (S2)

Notice how you actually rolled all the dice twice. This means the first roll was an execise in futility.

-T10

Rioghan Murchadha
15-09-2005, 16:06
You people are making this much more complicated than it is. A standard GW rule for ALL their games, not just fantasy, is that a re-roll cannot be re-rolled again. Ergo, you roll your saves. Pick them all up, and roll them again, as per the instructions on the 2 magic items.

R

Festus
15-09-2005, 17:59
Hi

You people are making this much more complicated than it is. A standard GW rule for ALL their games, not just fantasy, is that a re-roll cannot be re-rolled again. Ergo, you roll your saves. Pick them all up, and roll them again, as per the instructions on the 2 magic items.

This, mate, is not correct:

As I pointed out earlier, GW has already set an example within the *offical* corpus of the WHFB rules where a reroll can be rerolled itself:

GW Warhammer FAQ (http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/faq/assets/warhammer-faq.pdf)

p. 118 (Armour of Damnation).

SO there is the possibility to reroll a reroll...

...booo GW.... :(

Festus

§ilent§torm
15-09-2005, 18:22
That Q&A was written by the Roolz Boyz, so I'm a bit more inclined to trust logic and the wording in the main rulebook. Granted, they got most things right in that, but that particular question I believe is fudged. I bet if we got three people to email/call them at least one would reply that you can't reroll a reroll ever. I trust the game designers a bit more than Roolz Boyz.

That's not meant to be an insult to GW, I'm just saying, their RB are highly inconsistant.

Using common sense I think the two items should cancel each other out. Or, as stated already, you can go ahead and reroll all the saves just to roll dice, but it does nothing but take up time. At least that's how we've played situations like this in the past.

Rioghan Murchadha
15-09-2005, 18:35
Hi


This, mate, is not correct:

As I pointed out earlier, GW has already set an example within the *offical* corpus of the WHFB rules where a reroll can be rerolled itself:

GW Warhammer FAQ (http://uk.games-workshop.com/chronicles/faq/assets/warhammer-faq.pdf)

p. 118 (Armour of Damnation).

SO there is the possibility to reroll a reroll...

...booo GW.... :(

Festus

Yeah.. Unfortunately GW is not a court of law, and a very very specific incident (the armour of damnation Q&A) does not in fact set a precedent that presides over every other occurrence of a similar event. That Q&A only applies to hatred vs armour of damnation. Of course, you're welcome to play it however the heck you want, till it comes up in a tournament.

R

edit: Oh, and silentstorm, it's pretty well understood that the Roolzboyz are complete and utter ****** when it comes to actual knowledge of the rules.

Festus
15-09-2005, 20:34
Hi

That Q&A was written by the Roolz Boyz, so I'm a bit more inclined to trust logic and the wording in the main rulebook.
Erm... no!

this Q&A is the one published in the Annual/Chronicles and is from the horse's mouth itself, ie. the Warhammer Design Team.
It is given as part of the *official* way to handle things and thus sets a precedent as far as the game rules are concerned.

IMNSHO it was a stupid move of GW's to put this into print, but here you are.

Thus the blanket: *You cannot reroll a reroll* doesn't necessarily hold true anymore.

Greetings
Festus

Festus
15-09-2005, 20:37
Hi

Of course, you're welcome to play it however the heck you want, till it comes up in a tournament.

Well, I do understand that and follow this line of an argument, but...

...What to do if it comes up in a tournament?

The rule on p.37 of the BRB doesn't hold true anymore, as GW chose to rule differently themselves. So the solution is, please?

Festus

Gazak Blacktoof
15-09-2005, 22:25
What are you all complaining about? This doesn't need to turn into a major rant about how stupid/ evil/ poor at writing rules GW are.

Its pretty simple, you re-roll all failed armour saves then you take all of the successful saves and re-roll them. It works exactly the same as the armour of damnation in the FAQ, the only difference being that you're rolling saves instead of 'to hit' dice.


This FAQ is in the annual and is therefore perfectly official and every FAQ and rule is used to set precedents in warhammer. The general principles for solving a rules dispute are that if you can't find an answer you should attempt to find a similar situation covered elsewhere that can be applied, if that doesn't work then roll a dice or have a 3rd party interpret the rule.

Essentially both players can force a re-roll on a dice. So yeah, this goes against the general grain of 'you can only re-roll once'. But who cares?

Makaber
16-09-2005, 02:47
I do. The ruling is ridicilous, unnessecary, counterproductive, and self-contradictary.

Rioghan Murchadha
17-09-2005, 03:45
Actually, currently, according to the last published Q&A, only hatred vs armour of damnation works that way, otherwise they would've included the caveat that every similar situation is resolved the same way. Since that is not the case, the blanket rule still applies to everything save hatred vs armour of damnation.

Again. GW aren't judges, or lawyers. Reading too much into things is bad (tm.)

R

T10
17-09-2005, 16:15
Yes, I noticed that too.

I guess this is just one of the situations where one will just have to stare down a belligerent opponent and use the following defensive positions.

1) "It says so where in the rule-book?" (dig out rulebook and look up the section on rerolls)
2) "Oh, the Annual/Chronicles, well I wasn't aware of that."
3) "Ah, I see, but that doesn't make any sense, because according to the rules..." (point to rulebook)
4) "But this is regarding hatred and the Armour of Damnation. This is a totally different situation!"
5) Repeat 3 and 4 until victory is assured.

-T10

mageith
17-09-2005, 17:12
The original rule: P37: RE-ROLLS: Sometimes the rules allow you a ‘re-roll’ of the dice. This is exactly as it sounds—pick up the dice you wish to re-roll and re-roll again. The second score counts with a re-roll even if the it a worse result than the first, and no single dice roll can be re-rolled more than once, regardless of the source of the re-roll.
Key words in bold.

You guys appear to focusing on the die, the physical six-sided thing. A re-roll is an action.

Once a dice has been re-rolled by another player (or FORCED a player to re-roll against his wishes) it is no longer the same roll as it once was even if it refers to the same event.

And the player certainly is not wishing to re-roll a successful roll. So it's not his 'wish' to roll that dice.

The Q&A could have gone either way. I'm glad it at least went a way. So much has never been revealed to us.

Does a Q&A go on to solve other situations not specifically mentioned? I'd say no. A ruling by the Supreme court doesn't either, BTW. It's just that reasonable folks usually (not always) tend to take similar decisions as precedent and don't fight old battles over and over again.

Precedent isn't law, it's just precedent.

Ith

T10
18-09-2005, 18:11
I am afraid I fail to see where your argument is going.

My character with hatred attacks your character with the Armour of damnation.

I roll to hit and score only misses. I reroll all the dice and score only hits. I can't to see how you can now force me to reroll all my hits, seeing as I have alreaddy rerolled them once.

-T10

mageith
18-09-2005, 18:46
I roll to hit and score only misses. I reroll all the dice and score only hits. I can't to see how you can now force me to reroll all my hits, seeing as I have alreaddy rerolled them once.

It's the rule? I mean: It's the rule. and also the ruling.

Or maybe you mean 'force' in the physical sense? How big are you? :)

Ith

Angelripper
18-09-2005, 18:57
I am afraid I fail to see where your argument is going.

My character with hatred attacks your character with the Armour of damnation.

I roll to hit and score only misses. I reroll all the dice and score only hits. I can't to see how you can now force me to reroll all my hits, seeing as I have alreaddy rerolled them once.

-T10

I think you should re-roll your re-roll, because Hate is the special rule that allows you to re-roll missed hits. The Magic Item hooks in after your Hits have been rolled so you must re-roll them again, after that you go on to wounds.
The point of this Item is to protect your Charackter and in do so it forces the enemy to re-roll again.

T10
18-09-2005, 22:15
It's the rule? I mean: It's the rule. and also the ruling.

Or maybe you mean 'force' in the physical sense? How big are you? :)

Ith

I'm not that big. Plus, I wear glasses. :)

What I meat was: I got the impression that you meant the ruling was somehow supported by the actual rules - meaning that the Rulez Boyz didn't simply make it up but actually cleared up how the rules work.

I failed to see the distinction between the dice-roll as an act and the actual dice involved in this issue.

In the case of a to-hit roll, each attack is represented by a single dice roll which happens to involve a single die. Conversively, a leadership test is one roll involving multiple dice.

-T10

T10
18-09-2005, 22:18
I think you should re-roll your re-roll, because Hate is the special rule that allows you to re-roll missed hits. The Magic Item hooks in after your Hits have been rolled so you must re-roll them again, after that you go on to wounds.
The point of this Item is to protect your Charackter and in do so it forces the enemy to re-roll again.

I am sure that would be nice.

But what if I used some sort of magical sword that allows me to re-roll misses? That's designed to *hurt* the target, so it has no less magical or moral value than the armour.

-T10

Festus
18-09-2005, 22:45
Hi

T10-

The roll of the dice is an action by the player.
The forcing of a reroll is one too.

Think of rolls and rerolls as results of rolls:

You roll a dice. It shows a number. Usually this is the result. If for any reason there will be a reroll of this dice, the reroll shows the result.
This result is used as the basis of any further effects and calculations: Whether you are hit, or wounded, or whether you save, or hit yourself...
This result in turn is eligible to be manipulated by your oponent (up to once) as well, changing the result in the process.

You as a player still mustn't reroll the same roll more than once (ie. you may only change the result up to one time), but the oponent may force you to reroll any dice result that you rolled once as well.

Greetings
Festus

T10
18-09-2005, 23:06
I disagree: The FAQ ruling aside, of course, we restate the situation:

Character A attacks character B and scores all misses. Due to Hatred, he rerolls all the dice and scores all hits.

Now, each to-hit roll is a separate die roll involving one die.
Each to-hit roll has been re-rolled once (due to hatred).

If the Armour of Damnation forces another re-roll, the to-hit roll will be re-rolled a second time.

The effect of the Armour of Damnation is not "For each hit scored against the character the attacker gains one additional attack with no re-rolls allowed. Disregard the first hit."

GW dropped the ball on this one. No mistake about it.

-T10

mageith
19-09-2005, 01:40
I'm not that big. Plus, I wear glasses. :)

What I meat was: I got the impression that you meant the ruling was somehow supported by the actual rules - meaning that the Rulez Boyz didn't simply make it up but actually cleared up how the rules work.

I think we have two rules in contradiction. So the ruling is both supported and not supported by the BRB.

To repeat my position: "The Q&A could have gone either way. I'm glad it at least went a way. So much has never been revealed to us."



I failed to see the distinction between the dice-roll as an act and the actual dice involved in this issue.

I roll a die unsuccessfully. Then I re-roll it successfully. You now have spell or effect that forces me to re-roll that successful roll. That fact that you consider it the same roll is merely a matter of semantics. GW could have said that with your effect you physcially re-roll my dice (instead of forcing me to do it). Where's then the issue?

Also, somewhere along the line the re-rolling has to stop and somebody gets the last re-roll. GW tells us for sure when that is.



In the case of a to-hit roll, each attack is represented by a single dice roll which happens to involve a single die. Conversively, a leadership test is one roll involving multiple dice.

That might be the general rule or general way of doing things but GW can make any rule they want to and they did and they made a ruling too. Many things involve re-rolls or the choosing of the better of two or three dice. This is simply taking the general way of doing things and specifically doing it differently. This is how I see this particular ruling.

No sense railing against the ruling based on contradictions in the BRB. If you don't like the way it is, write GW or Gav or complain but I don't think basing the complaint on the BSB will be fruitful.

The gods have spoken and the die is cast.

Mage Ith

T10
19-09-2005, 07:46
I roll a die unsuccessfully. Then I re-roll it successfully. You now have spell or effect that forces me to re-roll that successful roll. That fact that you consider it the same roll is merely a matter of semantics. GW could have said that with your effect you physcially re-roll my dice (instead of forcing me to do it). Where's then the issue?

Also, somewhere along the line the re-rolling has to stop and somebody gets the last re-roll. GW tells us for sure when that is.


I think I'm beginning to see what you mean here.

Let's say I have the follwing stacked on my side:

Hatred.
Virtue of Reroll misses.
Magic Item of Reroll misses.
2 Dwarf Runes of Luck.

Then I should be able to reroll a single to-hit roll up to 5 times because they are different rerolls. And when I'm done my opponent pulls out his Armour of Tarnation and I reroll yet again.



The gods have spoken and the die is cast.


But apparently it can be rerolled.

-T10

Tarax
19-09-2005, 11:15
Has anyone ever thought about this:

It always says you may/must re-roll a succesful roll and not a succesful re-roll.

;) :D

mageith
19-09-2005, 11:22
These are Gav's initial thoughts....


Re-roll ReRoll a ReRoll... and ReRoll again? . (9 Replies). mentalod[ad123@sol.dk]. 9/5/2002 19:09 (9/6/2002 10:28) The daemonic gift SOUL HUNGER lets you reroll missed attacks in first round of combat, but what if you fight against a chaos lord (or hero) with the armour of damnation (opponent in close combat must reroll all successful hits)?

Example: Your daemon charges and misses a few attacks and rerolls them and hits, then the armour of damnation (worn by your opponent) forces you to reroll those succesful hits BUT... In the rulebook (cannot remember what page) it says; a di(c)e can only ever be rerolled once, you cannot reroll a reroll.
So does this mean that you will only have to reroll the first hits and get to keep the hits you scored from your reroll or...?
Reply

Once per player, actually (NT) . (1 Replies). GW Gav thorpe[]. 9/6/2002 5:20 (9/6/2002 10:28) No Text

T10
19-09-2005, 11:54
Ok, let me recap:

The rulez boyz arbitrarilly say that, yes, Hatred vs. Armour of Damnation can result in the to-hit roll being rerolled several times.

mageith seems to indicate that the rulebook may support applying multiple rerolls because the restriction appears to lie on the use of the reroll: e.g. reroll once for Hatred, don't keep rerolling until you score a hit! Feel free to correct me if I got it wrong, though.

Gav seems to go somewhat against this again and declare that each player (regardless of how many applicable rerolls) can force a reroll once. Of course, neither the rulez boyz nor the rulebook take the players involved into account.

I am not yet convinced.

-T10

Latro
19-09-2005, 13:31
Ok, let me recap:

The rulez boyz arbitrarilly say that, yes, Hatred vs. Armour of Damnation can result in the to-hit roll being rerolled several times.

-T10

That's how you read it. To me it says: a player can only re-roll once, but his opponent may cause certain re-rolls to be re-rolled again (regardless of who is actually physically touching the dice).

So far I haven't seen any rule, ruling or situation where it's legal to re-roll your own re-rolls again to get yet another better result.



mageith seems to indicate that the rulebook may support applying multiple rerolls because the restriction appears to lie on the use of the reroll: e.g. reroll once for Hatred, don't keep rerolling until you score a hit! Feel free to correct me if I got it wrong, though.

Gav seems to go somewhat against this again and declare that each player (regardless of how many applicable rerolls) can force a reroll once. Of course, neither the rulez boyz nor the rulebook take the players involved into account.

I am not yet convinced.

-T10

... and again, this seems to support that way of looking at it.

You're restricted to re-rolling once to change a result, but after that your opponent may have the option of forcing a re-roll to change the result his way.

:cool:

Mourner
18-10-2005, 01:14
If I am correct, the rule book states that you CANNOT re-roll a single dice more than once, i.e. the particular dice you used for the original save (given that you use a single dice to resolve a single attack from to-hit to armor-save) should not be picked up more than once after the original armor-save-roll. Thus cancelling any further rolls (or re-rolls), no matter what the outcome of the re-roll is.

Thus if you save your original roll, the sword works and the helm is effectively cancelled but if you fail the original roll, the helm works and the sword is effectiveley cancelled.

Hope you understand my logic :p

Festus
18-10-2005, 09:44
Eeekk, a threadomancer...

Why bother to read the thread if you can just bring it back to the point where it started? :(

If I am correct, the rule book states that you CANNOT re-roll a single dice more than once, i.e. the particular dice you used
I think we discussed that in detail already, thank you very much.

Festus