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The Guy
21-11-2007, 19:48
Well? I read somewhere that they have more then the standard 1000. So how many is there?

Maidel
21-11-2007, 20:03
without being called names - I think you answered your own question...


*more then the standard 1000*

The Guy
21-11-2007, 20:05
-.-


Well That's an infinite ammount of numbers minus 1000 to narrow it down to...
Thanks?

Mozzamanx
21-11-2007, 20:10
Im sure theres a line in the Daemonhunters codex which says they're not a full strength chapter
ie. Under 1000 of em.

Light of the Emperor
21-11-2007, 20:10
No one really knows.
On Armageddon, 100 terminators fought Angron. Most of them were lost. Such destruction of a company sized force would be dire for a chapter but I think the GK have far more terminators to respond to threats.
Speaking of which, GK need to be response ready throughout the galaxy. A standard chapter sized force couldn't cover enough ground.

I believe the GK were created shortly after the heresy...amongst the second founding. I bet they still maintain legion strength so my official guess would be around 10,000.

Maidel
21-11-2007, 20:27
I believe the GK were created shortly after the heresy...amongst the second founding. I bet they still maintain legion strength so my official guess would be around 10,000.

They werent the second founding - they were a random one - I think it was the 66 founding or something.

Also no chapters after the first founding were created with more than 1000 marines - only the first 20 were legions.


-.-


Well That's an infinite ammount of numbers minus 1000 to narrow it down to...
Thanks?


Sorry for the slightly sarci answer - but its one of the things that GW has never put a solid answer on because they are a 'mysterious' organisation and no one really knows how many of them there are to stop cults working out how many they have to kill before the imperium is unprotected.

Sideros Peltarion
21-11-2007, 20:30
They werent the second founding - they were a random one - I think it was the 66 founding or something.

Also no chapters after the first founding were created with more than 1000 marines - only the first 20 were legions.




Sorry for the slightly sarci answer - but its one of the things that GW has never put a solid answer on because they are a 'mysterious' organisation and no one really knows how many of them there are to stop cults working out how many they have to kill before the imperium is unprotected.

They were second founding. They were founded from the 8 survivors of the loyalist members of the traitor legions just before the Emperor went onto Horus' ship.

Maidel
21-11-2007, 20:35
They were second founding. They were founded from the 8 survivors of the loyalist members of the traitor legions just before the Emperor went onto Horus' ship.

No they arent...


The Grey Knights are the legendary Chapter 666. They were founded in mystery somewhat before the Second Founding,

and i was wrong too - but for different reasons - I knew they were 666...

Sideros Peltarion
21-11-2007, 20:42
No they arent...



and i was wrong too - but for different reasons - I knew they were 666...

Well thats the last bit of fluff I heard about their founding. Has the Horus Heresey books changed this? I don't know as I havent read them. But that was what I had heard anyway. Can't rememebr where or when though.
And as for the amount of them, Lexicanum says 3,000. Obviously that might be wrong, but that gives a pretty good indicator that they are larger than normal Chapters, though not necessarily Legion sized. Like the Black Templars they must ahve gradually grown over the millenia as required (BTs have 6,000)

Maidel
21-11-2007, 20:51
And as for the amount of them, Lexicanum says 3,000. Obviously that might be wrong, but that gives a pretty good indicator that they are larger than normal Chapters, though not necessarily Legion sized. Like the Black Templars they must ahve gradually grown over the millenia as required (BTs have 6,000)

to be honest - that number looks pretty much 'pulled-out-of-someones-a**' as its got an 'about' tag by it.

Basically they are saying 'about' 3000 to make it clear that as far as we know they are just a little bit more than a normal chapter.

Sideros Peltarion
21-11-2007, 20:54
to be honest - that number looks pretty much 'pulled-out-of-someones-a**' as its got an 'about' tag by it.

Basically they are saying 'about' 3000 to make it clear that as far as we know they are just a little bit more than a normal chapter.

Like I said, they are probably wrong, but it gives us an idea.

Maidel
21-11-2007, 20:59
Like I said, they are probably wrong, but it gives us an idea.

Not wanting to be arguementative for the sake of it - but not really.

Its not a number thats backed up by anything accept the writer of that wiki.

He could have said 'more than 1,000' or 'much less than 10,000' - either one would fit the background of 'larger than a normal chapter.' Its the problem with relying on internet based sources when looking at this sort of thing - they want an answer to fit their box (in this case a number) and he has to describe 'large than a normal chapter' in numbers - and plumps for 'about 3000'.

Sideros Peltarion
21-11-2007, 21:04
Not wanting to be arguementative for the sake of it - but not really.

Its not a number thats backed up by anything accept the writer of that wiki.

He could have said 'more than 1,000' or 'much less than 10,000' - either one would fit the background of 'larger than a normal chapter.' Its the problem with relying on internet based sources when looking at this sort of thing - they want an answer to fit their box (in this case a number) and he has to describe 'large than a normal chapter' in numbers - and plumps for 'about 3000'.

It's getting late and I can't be bothered to argue, besides I'm basically saying the same thing as you so it would be pointless anyway.

Light of the Emperor
21-11-2007, 21:20
The GK are listed as chapter number 666. They were created "around" the time of the second founding. If you believe in the Eisenstein theory, 8 survivors (loyalists from the traitor legions that fled on the Eisenstein) were brought before the Emperor. Their ability to resist the lure of chaos and their hidden psychic powers made them perfect candidates to become the first GK.
So, it can be said the GK were founded at the end of the heresy but they become "official" around the second founding.
GW is purposefully vague about the information because it lets us, the gamers, create our own opinions.

I believe the GK maintain a force of anywhere between 2,000 and 10,000 marines. The exact number is not known and probably never will be.

Sideros Peltarion
21-11-2007, 21:23
The GK are listed as chapter number 666. They were created "around" the time of the second founding. If you believe in the Eisenstein theory, 8 survivors (loyalists from the traitor legions that fled on the Eisenstein) were brought before the Emperor. Their ability to resist the lure of chaos and their hidden psychic powers made them perfect candidates to become the first GK.
So, it can be said the GK were founded at the end of the heresy but they become "official" around the second founding.
GW is purposefully vague about the information because it lets us, the gamers, create our own opinions.

I believe the GK maintain a force of anywhere between 2,000 and 10,000 marines. The exact number is not known and probably never will be.

Ah so thats where I got the 8 survivors thing from.

Maidel
21-11-2007, 21:30
Ah so thats where I got the 8 survivors thing from.

Jup - its the new bit that got shoe horned into the back story by the HH books.

So far its not a bad inclusion, if just a little bit away from them all being 'emperors gene seed' I assume the next logical step is that from those survivors they make the next generation of grey knights.

The pestilent 1
21-11-2007, 22:17
Jup - its the new bit that got shoe horned into the back story by the HH books.

So far its not a bad inclusion, if just a little bit away from them all being 'emperors gene seed' I assume the next logical step is that from those survivors they make the next generation of grey knights.

The Inquisitor rule book became a Horus Heresy book when?

Maidel
21-11-2007, 22:19
The Inquisitor rule book became a Horus Heresy book when?

When I dont remember reading it in there :p

Light of the Emperor
22-11-2007, 00:12
It's in mini form so it must be true!
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y119/Wicked_Cold/100_3550.jpg

Grandmaster Garro along with members from the World Eaters, Luna Wolves, Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children :).

Perhaps the following generations of GK received the Emperor's geneseed seeing that the traitor geneseed could be potentially unstable.

GKHERO
22-11-2007, 00:18
How many Grand Masters? Brother-Captains and Justicars are there? (Assuming they're around 3000 strong.)

Is it me, or does 3000 sound a little too low compared to what the Grey Knights have deployed in the past? 100 Terminators vs. Angron, 3 Grand Masters + 3 seperate command squads and retinues each vs. Ghargatuloth, ..etc. Not to mention the number of GKs stationed at the Eye of Terror..

dragonlady
22-11-2007, 01:01
Is there successor chapters of the Grey Knights?

I also seemed to remember reading in the DH book that the Grey Knights are a "normal" Space Marine chapter that is permanently assigned or pledged to the fight of the Ecclesiasstory.

Successor chapters would explain why any Chapter of SMs could go beyond the number of SM allowed post-heresy, and how Grey Knights are able to cover so much of the Emperium.

Light of the Emperor
22-11-2007, 03:29
All chapters, that follow codex doctrine, are at 1,000 men. Notable size deviations are chapters such as the Black Templar which kinda act as the last "link" back to the glory days of the Great Crusade. They exceed the 1,000 marine limit.
Even successor chapters follow the size restrictions.

I don't believe there are successors to the Grey Knights. They serve one purpose which is to combat daemons so dividing them into smaller armies to combat the same thing doesn't make sense.

From what I can remember, they only fall under the jurisdiction of the Ordo Malleus. Either the ordo or they themselves can decide when and/or where they will fight.

A justicar is basically a sgt equivalent so there will be a good number of them. GK power armor squads, purgation squads and teleportation squads all have a justicar to lead them. When a justicar (or marine) has proven himself, he becomes a terminator. Terminators in turn are led by a Brother-Captain.

I'm willing to bet there are multiple grandmasters. Each leads a strikeforce. The supreme grandmaster would be the one that sometimes serves as part of the High Lords of Terra.

GKHERO
22-11-2007, 03:47
So we're bigger than a normal Chapter which consists of 1000 Marines. We're spread out everywhere so that's probably 3000 (familiar number). Every Grey Knight squad has a Justicar and every Terminator squad has a Brother-Captain. Grand Masters are pretty darn rare, but not as rare as 1/1000 like the Chapter Masters of regular Space Marines. We know that ONE Grey Knight Grand Master sits at the Inquisitional table in Terra, but other than that, we don't know how many.

Light of the Emperor
22-11-2007, 04:01
The main base is on Titan, but if there's a daemonic infestation on the other side of the galaxy how would they get there? As far as I know, the GK maintain a fleet of battle barges (one was released for Battlefleet Gothic).

Everything you summed up, I agree with. The GK Grandmaster who sits in with the High Lords of Terra is not a regular. The Inquisition maintains a constant rep but the GK do not.

KwisatchHaderach
22-11-2007, 04:05
More Grey Knights than Ultramarines, less than the Black Templars. I say 4000.

[SD] Bob Plisskin
22-11-2007, 05:52
I don't believe there are successors to the Grey Knights. They serve one purpose which is to combat daemons so dividing them into smaller armies to combat the same thing doesn't make sense.


I thought it was hinted that the Exorcists were a successor chapter of the Grey Knights?


3 Grand Masters + 3 seperate command squads and retinues each vs. Ghargatuloth, ...

Who or what is Ghargatuloth?

and furthermore:

"Founded in great secrecy around the time of the Second Founding (although this is uncertain), the Grey Knights are amongst the most highly specialised defenders of Humanity in existence. Uniquely amongst the Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes, the Grey Knights Chapter has no antecedents, having been created from specifically engineered gene-seed. Legend has it that the Emperor himself ordered the creation of this unique Chapter to form a force designed to fight the dread creatures of Chaos, though, of course, this is impossible to verify."

interestingly enough their chapter base is on Titan. (damn, me too slow!)

Taipan
22-11-2007, 11:07
The Grey Knights don't have any successors, because they are not a Space Marine Chapter. They are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus (Daemonhunters), and were created for the explicit purpose of combating daemonic infestations. Every single one of them is a psyker, soul-bound to the Emperor, infused with his gene-seed. They are totally incorruptable (unlike Marines), utilise unique anti-daemonic weaponry (along with mundane stormbolters for crowd-clearing), and have access to the fastest, most secure ships in the entire Imperium. Every single Grey Knight strike vessel is riddled with wards and protective runes, not to mention the multiple Gellar fields they mount.

So, all in all, not a Space Marine Chapter. I would estimate their numbers to be around 3,000 given that they are deployed across the galaxy, but have such fast ships and access to such rare tech (being right next to Mars). So, while it seems like they are everywhere at once, in reality they are still a tiny force, but are deployed across space and time rapidly.

KwisatchHaderach
22-11-2007, 11:10
No, the GK don't have successor chapters, but there are other Space Marine chapters that can and do fight demons as a speciality, just not nearly as well as the Imperium's finest.

The pestilent 1
22-11-2007, 11:26
There was atleast one founding created specifically to guard the Eye of terror -They are mentioned in the Codex- so yeah, you do have speciality chapters, but I sincerely doubt they are as specialised as the Knights.

KwisatchHaderach
22-11-2007, 12:10
I would say they are probably just as specialized, and not as good.

Agrip. Varenus Denter
22-11-2007, 17:36
The Grey Knights don't have any successors, because they are not a Space Marine Chapter.

That's incorrect. It states very clearly and repeatedly on page 6 and 7 (as well as other places) of Codex: Daemonhunters that the Grey Knights are a Chapter. Since they are designated Chapter 666 - and are Space Marines - one can only draw the conclusion that they are, indeed, a Space Marine Chapter.

The Guy
22-11-2007, 18:51
I think about 3000-6000 myself.
Maybe 6666? Considering their obsession with 6's. [Strange how a chapter meant for the destruction of daemons likes to use the devils number :wtf:]

Agrip. Varenus Denter
22-11-2007, 19:04
[Strange how a chapter meant for the destruction of daemons likes to use the devils number :wtf:]

Well, in a way it does make a little sense...

There was a Greek bishop named Irenaeus, who in the 2nd century suggested that the number indicated that the beast was the sum of all the apostasy (turning away from faith or religion) committed over the course of six thousand years. He went on a bit to speak of the name "Titan" (in the original Greek the letters total 666) - of course, that being where the Grey Knights call home.

And Guy - you may be right on with the total number being 6666. If you know the story of the Theban Legion, six thousand six hundred and sixty-six Roman soldiers allegedly converted to Christianity and then were subsequently martyred in 286 AD.

Firebird
22-11-2007, 19:21
The last official numbers I read were 6000 Grey Knights.
As for them being Marines, of course they are. They're the finest psykers
recruited from the Black Ships, free of taint and corruption. The finest among the Astartes, famed for their cruel but necessary rituals of recruitment.
They don't have successor Chapters because they're not needed.
Daemon Infestations of high caliber are rare.
The Exorcists are also a Chapter that is designed to fight Daemons but they follow the Codex for the part, their founding was overseen by the GK and ordered by the High Lords.

Maidel
22-11-2007, 20:17
The last official numbers I read were 6000 Grey Knights.

Where?

to the best of my knowledge GW has never released any figures for their total numbers - or even a hint beyond 'more than a normal chapter'

which for all we could know is 1001.

Taipan
22-11-2007, 21:23
@ Agrip;

They are designated Chapter 666, and yes they are typically counted as one of the 1,000 or so SM Chapters, but they are not a SM Chapter in the usual sense. They are a Chamber Militant, meaning they are bound by oaths to serve the Daemonhunters of the Inquisition. GK's are deployed by the Ordo Malleus, much like the Deathwatch of the Ordo Xenos. While a Grandmaster can lead an expedition against a daemonic infestation on his own initiative, they generally rely on the Inquisition to tell them where to go. While they deploy all across the galaxy, they are still based on Titan, which means they can be quite isolated from what happens in other parts of the Imperium.
SM Chapters are independant organisations, self-reliant and they choose where and when they help the Imperium.

@ Firebird;

While the recruitment, training and augmentation procedures are similiar, Grey Knights are not Marines in the usual sense (just as they are not a Chapter in the usual sense). They don't use any of the Primarchs gene-seed, they use the Emperor's own genetic code. Every one of them is a psyker, which is a bit beyond most Chapters. More importantly, every one of them is soul-bound to the Emperor, and have never defected in their entire history.

As for numbers, given demand and the slow influx of new recruits (given their highly specific criteria and harsh training), I would estimate 3,000 or so. That gives them the ability to deploy similiar forces to SM Companies in individual battles, but reflects their rare and unique abilites and wargear. I would estimate that around 2,000 would be on active deployment, while 1,000 or so remain on Titan, constantly training and guarding the Segmentum Solar.

Excorcists are one of the 'anti-Abbadon' Chapters created to guard the Cadian Gate. Some of these defected during the 13th Black Crusade, with the rest (including the Excorcists) helping the Cadians hold back Chaos.

Nazguire
22-11-2007, 21:26
I would say they are probably just as specialized, and not as good.

How and why?

Is there any mention of the Astartes Praeses Chapters being specialised daemon hunting Chapters?

Maidel
22-11-2007, 21:29
How and why?


Actually I would go one step further and say the exact opposite.

They CANT be as specialised unless each of them is a psyker carrying a nemis force weapon - thats the only way to be 'as specialized'

Nazguire
22-11-2007, 21:34
Actually I would go one step further and say the exact opposite.

They CANT be as specialised unless each of them is a psyker carrying a nemis force weapon - thats the only way to be 'as specialized'

Thats what I was getting at :p

The Grey Knights are ''unique''. It's one of those immutables of 40k you can't change, along with Plague Marines stinking and Eldar being poncy.

Just because, like the Exorcists, the Praeses Chapters were set up to guard the Eye of Terror, doesn't mean they are exclusively specialised to deal with them.

There isn't any mention at all that they even function differently to other Chapters. They just guard the space lanes there (so would presumably be far more fleet based in order to be more efficient at it).

Maidel
22-11-2007, 21:37
Eldar being poncy.

I dare you to say that to one pointing a star cannon at you... :D

Nazguire
22-11-2007, 21:39
I dare you to say that to one pointing a star cannon at you... :D

*picks up model*

"You're poncy"
Same result. They are poncy.

GKHERO
22-11-2007, 21:43
Back on topic:

I'd say there's relatively 3000 Grey Knights. 500 of them are probably Terminators.

That leaves 2500 PAGKs. 2500/10 = 250 Justicars. (considering the max squad size is 10 w/ Justicar)

500 Terminators/10 = 50 Brother-Captains. (once again, max GKT squad size is 10)

Out of 50 Brother-Captains, there's probably 5 Grand Masters; using the same /10 formula. Who else agrees with this?

Maidel
22-11-2007, 21:47
Who else agrees with this?

I completely agree with your relative numbers.

totally dissagree with the assumption that there are 3000 of them.

We really dont know. Its like saying that there are 3 billion necron warriors - we actually have no idea what so ever.

Nazguire
22-11-2007, 22:10
Back on topic:

I'd say there's relatively 3000 Grey Knights. 500 of them are probably Terminators.

That leaves 2500 PAGKs. 2500/10 = 250 Justicars. (considering the max squad size is 10 w/ Justicar)

500 Terminators/10 = 50 Brother-Captains. (once again, max GKT squad size is 10)

Out of 50 Brother-Captains, there's probably 5 Grand Masters; using the same /10 formula. Who else agrees with this?

There's only one Grand Master. He's the Chapter Master essentially.

Maidel
22-11-2007, 22:15
There's only one Grand Master. He's the Chapter Master essentially.

Im not sure about that - it doesnt say it in the codex like it does for chapter masters.

Quote from codex:

The Grand Masters of the grey knights are charismatic bold and fearless.


Take from that what you will - that could imply masters over time (as in one after the other) or that there is more than one at a time - but that is definately pural.

Taipan
22-11-2007, 23:51
Nah, Eldar are only arrogant p**cks because they have been around longer than anyone except the Necrons. So, when they see the human race grope around trying to assert themselves, they naturally feel superior. That said, they still 'help' us from time to time (always to benefit their plans of course).

Praesus Chapters, why couldn't I remember that? Anyway, I agree that they wouldn't be too different from regular SM chapters. I mean, maybe the Inquisition/GK's took the time to screen them a bit more, and keep tabs on them, but other than being fleet-based i doubt they need to be much different.

Hive Mind 33
23-11-2007, 00:15
I think its between the Space wolves 10,000(still follow the legion setup) and a normal chapters 1000

Nazguire
23-11-2007, 00:21
I think its between the Space wolves 10,000(still follow the legion setup) and a normal chapters 1000

Space Wolves aren't 10,000. They are over 1000 for sure, but 10,000 Space Wolves is way way too big for any Chapter in the Imperium to follow without getting in big big trouble.

Hive Mind 33
23-11-2007, 00:27
Space Wolves aren't 10,000. They are over 1000 for sure, but 10,000 Space Wolves is way way too big for any Chapter in the Imperium to follow without getting in big big trouble.

Don't forget they never split into other chapters the wolf brothers were created using the wolf geneseed not actually Wolves. And Russ only signed the codex to say it exists i am not gonna follow it.

Any way back on topic. there are Enough GK

KwisatchHaderach
23-11-2007, 00:46
How and why?


They are just as specialized in that their sole raison d'etre is fighting demons. As for the why, it is because Chaos has widespread influence and the Imperium needs help in that area wherever it can get it.

downundercadet07
23-11-2007, 02:46
How and why?

Is there any mention of the Astartes Praeses Chapters being specialised daemon hunting Chapters?

Not really specialized as anti-deamon hunters, but throughout the horrific Goto novels about them, the Blood Ravens are often portrayed as a sort of Diet Grey Knight chapter, given their immense expertise in psychic phenomenon and their library which is the single greatest repository of knowledge in the Imperium outside of the Emperor's skull.

Nazguire
23-11-2007, 02:47
They are just as specialized in that their sole raison d'etre is fighting demons. As for the why, it is because Chaos has widespread influence and the Imperium needs help in that area wherever it can get it.

I assume you're talking about the Praeses Chapters? They aren't specialised to killing daemons. They are there to guard the Eye of Terror yes. But they aren't Grey Knight specialised. THere are only two official (never mind fan-fic) Daemonhunting Chapters. THe Grey Knights and the Exorcists.

KwisatchHaderach
23-11-2007, 02:50
I assume you're talking about the Praeses Chapters? They aren't specialised to killing daemons. They are there to guard the Eye of Terror yes. But they aren't Grey Knight specialised. THere are only two official (never mind fan-fic) Daemonhunting Chapters. THe Grey Knights and the Exorcists.

Yes well I was talking about the Exorcists: I am not even really sure what the Praeses Chapter is.

I assume that if there is one Chapter like the exorcists, there are probably several more. There are a thousand Chapters after all, the vast majority of them haven't been named.

downundercadet07
23-11-2007, 02:54
I assume you're talking about the Praeses Chapters? They aren't specialised to killing daemons. They are there to guard the Eye of Terror yes. But they aren't Grey Knight specialised. THere are only two official (never mind fan-fic) Daemonhunting Chapters. THe Grey Knights and the Exorcists.

As I mentioned earlier, this isn't entirely correct. The Blood Ravens are a bulwark against deamonic infestation and often train alongside the Grey Knights in addition to fighting alongside them. They also collaborate extensively with the Eldar in anti-daemon operations, which has allowed them access to Eldar manufactured force weapons. This amount of cooperation with the xenos is overlooked by the inquisition due to the fact that the ordo malleus has had to rely on the Blood Ravens to handle deamonic incursions numerous times when grey knights were unavailable or impracticable for use.

Nazguire
23-11-2007, 03:04
As I mentioned earlier, this isn't entirely correct. The Blood Ravens are a bulwark against deamonic infestation and often train alongside the Grey Knights in addition to fighting alongside them. They also collaborate extensively with the Eldar in anti-daemon operations, which has allowed them access to Eldar manufactured force weapons. This amount of cooperation with the xenos is overlooked by the inquisition due to the fact that the ordo malleus has had to rely on the Blood Ravens to handle deamonic incursions numerous times when grey knights were unavailable or impracticable for use.


C.S Goto isn't known for his exact adherence to the precedence of the background.

Their IA (the only official background by GW) says nothing about that. Also says nothing about training with Grey Knights or collaborating with Eldar extensively.

C.S. Goto fiction is bad fiction. Bad Black Library. Black Library isn't even official canon, Gascoigne said himself.

KwisatchHaderach
23-11-2007, 03:08
Everything that Games Workshop makes is canon. Period.

Or at least as Canon as everything else.

downundercadet07
23-11-2007, 03:10
I said that I hated Goto also... But I'm under the understanding that EVERYTHING out of the black library is canon. Horus Heresy, Deus Ecarmine, Double Eagle, whatever.

You seem sort of militantly opposed to the idea though... The only fluff they really have at all IS the black library stuff (besides the blurb in the space marine codex which basically says 'yeah, they are handy with bolters. yeah'). Although Goto is an unbelievably bad writer, the chapter that he has helped to create is an evocative and believable one. To throw out two or three thousand pages of fluff on the basis of three or four pages from another source seems a bit like cherry-picking.

GKHERO
23-11-2007, 03:16
There's only one Grand Master. He's the Chapter Master essentially.

There's 1 that sits with the High Lords of Terra and the Inquisition, but there's several distributed amongst the Ordo Malleus.

Agrip. Varenus Denter
23-11-2007, 04:32
As far as BL being canon - of course it is! There have been interview after interview with the writers where they have mentioned canon. One can only imagine that if a book is not in direct and blatant disagreement with a codex, that it is considered official universe canon.

Ranulf
23-11-2007, 10:18
The source for the GK is the 8 marines. And they were collected or gathered before horus died if I'm not remembering wrong and wouldn't it be possible that the most secret "chapter" went beside the aduptus astartes made by gulliman and continued to create marines beyond the 1000 limit, to 10000 or more even. Then the Normal Legions was divided so that chaos would be discoverd sooner if it toke root, but the GK marines are super resisters of chaos right?, and they have never fallen to chaos temptations and so could have a legion sized chapter.

xD

KwisatchHaderach
23-11-2007, 11:26
As far as BL being canon - of course it is! There have been interview after interview with the writers where they have mentioned canon. One can only imagine that if a book is not in direct and blatant disagreement with a codex, that it is considered official universe canon.

The idea of canon or not canon as pertains to Warhammer 40k is silly and absurd to begin with.

Gaebriel
23-11-2007, 12:34
As any number in 40k it will be much too low to be feasible :(

On canon, any and every bit of fiction is in my eyes - there's too little information not to...

El_Machinae
23-11-2007, 14:49
Any way back on topic. there are Enough GK

I think the official count is "Not Quite Enough"

Agrip. Varenus Denter
23-11-2007, 16:40
The idea of canon or not canon as pertains to Warhammer 40k is silly and absurd to begin with.

How so? I'm simply using their words (Marc Gascoigne from BL, Alan Merrett, GW's own head of background, and of course Rick Priestley and John Blanche... not mine.

From Marc's own mouth:


...but whether certain folks like it or not is irrelevant to whether it is canon. It is.

That's pretty much that.

Commander Dante
23-11-2007, 17:44
who says that the threat of deamons is so constant? most of the focus is at the Eye of Terror or the Maelstrom so it could be 500 to each. the Grey Knights arnt called for every deamon attack, most of the time the IG or another space marine chapter responfs. Grey Knights are called in when the biggest and the baddest deamons surface

downundercadet07
23-11-2007, 18:25
Yeah, but when that happens, a Daemon Primarch shows up and eats what would be an entire veteran company in terminator armor. The GKs have to be combat effective all over the galaxy even immediately after loosing a hundred terminators like they did against Angron. To be able to achieve this, it stands to reason that they would have a larger chapter, even if there isn't a constant omnipresent daemonic threat. That said, I think there pretty much IS a constant daemonic threat, but that is something else all together.

Light of the Emperor
23-11-2007, 23:52
Remember that psykers act as a channel to reality for daemons. That's why the inquisition hunts them down with such fervor. A weak psyker's mind can allow daemons to manifest and psykers are found all over the galaxy.

KwisatchHaderach
24-11-2007, 00:16
How so?

It is silly because the whole idea behind canon has only ever been to allow fans to disregard background they don't like, and to do it with a sense that that viewpoint is on an intellectually equal level with everyone else's.

The whole Canon vs Not Canon thing started with Star Trek and Star Wars, and soon EVERY major franchise has to have a canon debate. And it is just stupid and pointless really - everything is canon.

BrainFireBob
24-11-2007, 04:56
Kwisatz, that's incorrect.

The concept of "canon" began in the Church during the Roman empire. If it was cannonical, it was legitimate, if it wasn't it was apostate.

Secondly, the debate has raged the last forty or so years due to the proliferation of fan-fiction, which is not canon unless you're gnostic (if you understand that joke, you need to date more. I'm allowed to make it only because I'm engaged).

Thirdly, Goto is the worst of the Black Library writers for ignoring reams of alternate, simultaneous, or pre-existing fluff. You can argue he supercedes the old, but not the concurrent nor the later published, especially when it's in line with the older fluff.

The Blood Ravens revere knowledge- are obsessed with it. Making them train with the Grey Knights serves the same literary purpose as Medieval scholars making their literary creations better knights than Sir Gawaine, or Sir Galahad beating Lancelot numerous times. ie, if they're better than the best, they are now the best. That ignores the fact there is no way to shoehorn that "gem" into existing background at all. You can only do it if you ignore the fact the Grey Knights are a gigantic secret that few individuals know about. Remember, Marines are mind-wiped and Guard scrubbed after fighting Daemonic incursions.


That said, the Grey Knights are a unique Marine formation, created at special order of the emperor, possibly using uniquely created gene-seed and possibly a cocktail of gene-seed from the Eisenstein 8. They were certainly trained or otherwise involved with the Eisenstein 8 early in their formation, they have the best of the best of the best of the best (one more best than anyone else gets) in terms of training, recruits, and equipment.

The Exorcists are subject to possession and then exorcism during the course of their training- the changes the Daemon makes as a matter of course improving their physique over even regular Marines- and their resulting hatred making them proof against further possession. They're also trained in basic exorcism and banishment, and are fleet-based members of the Adeptus Praeses, which are the set of Chapters that do nothing but guard the Eye. They were created initially under Grey Knight supervision, in case the banishments didn't take.

This has two bonuses- the Grey Knights can have backup that doesn't need mind-wiping, and instead of maintaining a presence at the Eye, they are freed up to roam the galaxy at need, since there's a force that can at the minimum hold the line against Daemonic excursions and maximum deal with them itself.

KwisatchHaderach
24-11-2007, 09:05
Kwisatz, that's incorrect.

The concept of "canon" began in the Church during the Roman empire. If it was cannonical, it was legitimate, if it wasn't it was apostate.



I'm aware that there technically began the idea of "canon" in the Catholic Church, but, come on. To say that that is where the IDEA came from (not the word canon, but the idea) is pedantic and silly.

Lets not be ridiculous here - the idea that EVERY fictional universe has a "canon" began with Trek and Star Wars.

BrainFireBob
24-11-2007, 20:39
No, I'd argue it's implied from the art world, actually.

Anything that's popular suffers from fan-fiction. That didn't start with star wars or star trek popularly- it actually started with Tolkien, as far as I'm aware- who predates Star Wars and Star Trek.

Spacewolves vs Thousandsons
26-11-2007, 15:28
well since they are a chapter there should be approximately 1000 of them but when they are called in for massive demon problems, such as a demon world they dont exactly have the longest life expectency, the first chapter of the book grey knights describes one such scenario 300 of them where sent to stop a greater demon of tzneetch on a demon world, only one body was recovered(they di banish the demon however)

Agrip. Varenus Denter
26-11-2007, 15:30
well since they are a chapter there should be approximately 1000 of them

It's already been established that the Grey Knights are a little non-codex, much like the Black Templars. Normal vanilla rules don't apply to them.