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Warlord Kyle
22-11-2007, 03:46
Alright i will be frank, i have a small fantasy army, and the only games ive managed to play so far have been against a friends bretonian army. Suprisingly he uses some peasants. He manages to obliterate me each time and im lucky to have killed 10 models...in a 2000pt game. I am not asking for something to demolish him, just i have no idea what im doing in fantasy yet and everything ive tried so far has failed. Im just asking if anyone has any suggestions. He fields;
9x 4 columns of knights
7 peguasie
50 peasants with either halberts or spears
1 trebuchet
and the rest of his points go into peasant archers.

he is letting me proxy models for our next game to see how i do, so please suggest anything but a gunline army or a wizard heavy army. Anything would help plz, help out a 40k player lol.

nikkcookie
22-11-2007, 04:08
thats a tough one.
brettonnians are a pain in the ass and it looks like hes using a cheesy bretonnian list (i would suggest fight cheese with cheese)apart from that i suggest not a gunline but a warmachine heavy army with handgunners and huntsmen to march block. lots of outriders. that would be a start for killing them but i realise you probably dont have those models.
for tactics you would have to tell me what youve got in your army.

Fate
22-11-2007, 11:41
Yeah, i'd say about the same, don't go with a gunline, but a warmachine line and support thr warmachines with combat.

Mount all your 4 character in flying monsters, so to protect you warmachines from the pegasi, then get 4 cannons to rip through his lines of cavalary, a Stank will kill a lot things on charge and also it's a moving cannon. For last get a hellblaster for a good measure. I'll leave the core choices to you but i'm pretty sure we'll twice on how to make his advance.:evilgrin:

BGS
22-11-2007, 16:27
Knights need to break units on the charge, anything stubborn such as 20 great swords or a unit with a battle standard bearer with the banner of sigismund to make the unit stubborn can take a charge. if you are running infantry you'll need to master the detachments rules for flank and denial of ranks, recommend swordsmen detachments on great sword parent company. The war alter from an archlector is unbreakable and I have found when combined with van horstman's is pretty good. I agree with the others war machines can wreck brettonians. I would field 2 hellblasters, they're cheap and can break through armor at -3 as. 2 cannons are also good as they can blast chariots from other armies as well as kill 3 or so knights a shot, they'll get ward saves but a 5+ only goes so far. Remember when shooting at pegasus knights with a hellblaster you do not suffer a -1 for skirmish as their unit strength is above 1. priest ar awesome especially when running with inner circle knights, take the banner that lets you charge an extra d3 inches and you'll be able to match their long charges most of the time. lore of metal helps get through their armor as well, a unit of huntsmen can march block or take out his trebuchete, the sword of fate is great for when you want to challenge his lord with yours, a general on a griffon "though be careful and consult monstrous mounts tactica" will outcharge his knights and wreck pegasus knights as well as have great maneuverabilityand if you want to get really cheesy take karl franz on a dragon and crush whole columns of knights. Hope this helps and good luck with your next game

Dragon Prince of Caledor
22-11-2007, 19:47
Take either two hellblasters.... or 2 tanks,.... or a blaster and a tank. Then go lore of metal with two wizards. If you are lucky you will get spirit of the forge. Bret magic sucks!!! You will cast spells all over the place. Take lots of gunners too. Brettonia is a pain to fight but in my opinion empire is one of the best armies to fight them with. With lore of metal war machines shooters and stubborn units/ detachments. Try to lure him in with a weak unit like spearmen and flee as a charge response. Then he will be close to your inner circle knights who will demolishi him if they get the charge. (ps give them the d3 extra inches banner) I would also take cannons if you feel you can guess well enough. Let his infantry units get held up by yours. Then use elites against him like knights and greatswords. I dont know what empire has for magic items but i am sure that there are bound to be some that are useful. In 2000pts take a lord that can fly! That can march block and if you flank a lord on dragon would anihilate his units. Or you could take a lord on like a griffin and give him a runefang. This insures a flank/kills/keeps you alive because you have no defense! If you could do a combined charge withthe lord on his best unit with inner circle knights using the tactic i listed above about retreating he will crumble:) I have crunched brettonia countless times with dwarves and high elves I know what works and what doesnt! :) good luck:)

Warlord Kyle
22-11-2007, 21:10
17 knights, luther huss, 21 handgunners, 5 outriders, 15 spears, 20 halberters, 1 helblaster, 1 great cannon, 1 wiz, i master engineer, 5 kislev winged lancers, 20 militia, 10 marksmen, and i can borrow 1 tank. but models do not matter really, he is letting me proxy stuff. What if he resists the charge?

Dragon Prince of Caledor
22-11-2007, 22:41
brettonia cant touch the steamtank take two if you think his list is cheese. :)

Dead Man Walking
22-11-2007, 23:46
There is a few tactics you can use on brittonian knights. One is that if a brittonian is not charging its not winning. You do this by giving them cheap targets to charge and then fleeing the charge to buy yourself another round and making them trot closer to you.

One foul technique is to do this with fast calvary as fast calvary can rally and then move right back into charge range to flee from the next charge. This is espeacially rough vrs infantry, but it will work on brits so long as you dont run off the table (Or sacrifice the points and run off anyways.) For example you move into charge range with fast calv in turn one, let him charge, you flee. You rally, turn around and do it again, finally you flee off the table but for 2 turns your opponent has only moved 18 inches, thats three turns of shooting at him.

Another is let him charge something that is not going to break, unbreakable or stubborn stuff.

Another is to charge him first. Flee a charge and charge him in reply with calvary. Most brits are loathe to run with such an expensive unit.

Bait unit: You let him charge those cheap fast calvary, let him win and over run right into another unit (stubborn or unbreakable) and then on your turn you charge his flanks on both sides.

Check for spells and magic items that specifically mess with mounted calvary. I know there are some items out there that make all mounted calvary make a ldrship test or flee, anything will help.

Fate
23-11-2007, 02:35
Ah yes, so many little pretty tactics, and they are good too, only that, a good bret player won't fall for sucj obvious traps, he has much more important targets than that and if he is a bit smart, he will move in such a way that he has 2 or 3 targets to charge, so it won't matter if you give him a fast cavalary or a decoy unit, rather than that, i belive it's much better to have him wondering how is he going to advance so if you have a lord on a griffon, 2 captains on pegasus and 1 mage for dispeling purposes you already are giving him a hard time for his flying units, then 4 cannons for his cavalary to think on how to advance through a couple voleys and of course 1 or 2 stanks which not only hit hard when they charge, but also have a cannon. He'll be in deep ****. The core units i'd chose mostly archers as they are skirmishers and move arround easly to dodge charges, no point in having handgunners causing panic. And that's not a gunline, that's a cannon line! :evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:

Warlord Kyle
23-11-2007, 02:40
does anyone have any experience with the banner that allows a cavalry unit to charge an extra d3 inchs, or any experience with using greatswordsmen against brets?

Warlord Kyle
23-11-2007, 02:46
i only have 1 cannon and 1 helblaster though...

Fate
23-11-2007, 02:54
Well the banner really sucks, D3 is very little i never got any decent result, i prefer warbanner for cavalary.

As for the cannons and stuf, he's letting you proxy, get a cardboard piece and make a base at the sise of the cannon, then uses a few bases for cannons. or hellblasters as you deem necessary. Point is, have fun blasting him off the battlefield.

Warlord Kyle
23-11-2007, 03:16
i think i said i wanted to avoid gunline...

Fate
23-11-2007, 03:22
Let me explain what is a gunline.

4 mages, 30 handgunners, 30 or 40 archers, 4 cannons, 2 hellblasters.
That is a gunline and you might still have some points.

now you tanke the handgunners, take the hellblasters and it's no longer a gunline, you have cannons yes, but you desperatly need them.

Marneus Calgar
23-11-2007, 04:44
Gunlines are boring to play/play against. I am currently attempting to start and empire army which is trying to stay away from a gunline army at all costs.

Fate
23-11-2007, 11:39
That's apoint of view, i like playing with gunlines, the only reason i don't is cause i win 50% of times as many armies will kick my butt.

BGS
23-11-2007, 13:22
if you do not wish a gunline then the griffon with the general and his runefang might be fun at strength 4 auto wound and no armor save plus it's str 4 and he only gets a 6+ ward plus the attacks of the griffon, or the armor of meteoric iron and the sword of power plus a pistol since you have a high bs, the d3 banner is kind of weak, I have tried it not to much success overall but it's the only way I can think of to equal or outcharge bret knights other than bait tactics, greatswords fielded in sufficient numbers and with swordsmen detachments ,20+ greatswords with 10 swordsmen detachments know, your countercharge rules, and deny him his ranks when he charges and pick up the flank. Since they must take a bsb most times they will not break but if they are not charging and have become stuck then they are in trouble, make sure you have a bsb near the greatswords as well in case you roll over their ld since it is good but not dwarven good. also greatswords can take magic banners such as banner of valor or a war banner. Typically the empire has lots of shooting in it anyway without even trying to make it a gunline since their shooting is pretty cheap so I wouldn't worry to much about having some in it so long as you have some close combat units such as knights or greatswords or swordsmen backed up by a griffon bsb and a detachment. I have had some experience with the new steam tank and while a column or two of bret knights can hurt it to the point where it is a chunk of metal on the table they probably cannot kill it thus tarpitting the knights, then follow with a griffon, inner circle knights or greatswords into their side.

DeathlessDraich
23-11-2007, 13:37
Alright i will be frank, i have a small fantasy army, and the only games ive managed to play so far have been against a friends bretonian army. .

Too bad you've got Empire. I always recommend a Bretonnian army for beginners.


Suprisingly he uses some peasants. He manages to obliterate me each time and im lucky to have killed 10 models...in a 2000pt game. I am not asking for something to demolish him, just i have no idea what im doing in fantasy yet and everything ive tried so far has failed. Im just asking if anyone has any suggestions. He fields;
9x 4 columns of knights
7 peguasie
50 peasants with either halberts or spears
1 trebuchet
and the rest of his points go into peasant archers.

he is letting me proxy models for our next game to see how i do, so please suggest anything but a gunline army or a wizard heavy army. Anything would help plz, help out a 40k player lol.

Some suggestions:

1) Make sure there are lots of terrain especially woods. Bretts prefer open ground to manoeuvre and charge. Buildings are also good against them.

2) Move the steam Tank in the midst of the peasants which are more than 6" from knights - you don't even have to charge, Terror tests, Steam gun etc could cause mass Panic.

3) Beware and be aware of Bret characters - they could destroy your Steam Tank! In challenges they are normally devastating. Avoid challenges.

4) Use your knights to engage the Pegasi which will probably attack your cannon etc

5) Use your flagellants to hold up the knights in Lance formation and then flank charge them.

6) The following is the most popular Empire combo in tournaments:
1) Arch Lector on a War Altar - Dawn Armour, Holy Relic
2) 1 or 2 Steam Tanks
3) Flagellants - 1 or 2 units of 20
4) 2 Warrior Priests, possibly 1 mounted, Laurels of Victory or similar.
5) 2 units of 5 or 6 Knights

7) Keep the War Altar away from the Trebuchet's shooting and move it into combat quickly if other units nearby are engaged. Choose Cleansing Flare when your War Altar is close to the enemy plus Soul fire. Use prayers to make units Unbreakable.

8) Use small units e.g. detachment to lure the Knights and ambush them with stronger units - move a detachment right up to the enemy and then flee when charged.

Warlord Kyle
24-11-2007, 00:53
er anything without a war alter? im trying to make a army that avoids being magic heavy, so any ideas of what to replace the war alter with? and y is the griffon so good? Do u guys mean taking karl frans? or jsut a general of the empire.

Fate
24-11-2007, 01:40
Kyle, a war altar does casts a spell however it's not the reason an empire player choses it (well not the first at least). It confers a ward save of 4+ without spending item points on it.

Also DeathlessDraich, why would you bring a holy relic in a character that already has a ward save from the chariot and could have one from his own spells?
Seams kinda points wasting, from what i see and what i do. You bring van horstmann's speculum and the rest is up to each player.

BGS
24-11-2007, 13:23
the reason a griffon might be good against bret knights kyle is the range of its charge, it can deny ranks if it hits a unit in the side or rear causes terror and has an amazing movement capabilities, against low shooting armies.. i consider bret one of those armies.. it tends to work well, against shooting ...elves empire dwarves it dies . If you take karl franz go ahead and take the dragon, the empires dragon doesn't eat up a hero slot and it has a higher toughness and an armor save.

Warlord Kyle
24-11-2007, 16:21
the problem is his brets do have alot of shooting, at least 40 archers and a Trebuchet. So i cannt advance that far, i need to wait for him to be closer, to avoid getting shot and manage a charge before he does.

Warlord Kyle
24-11-2007, 16:42
also, can the magical banners only be taken my the bsb?

DeathlessDraich
24-11-2007, 16:47
Also DeathlessDraich, why would you bring a holy relic in a character that already has a ward save from the chariot and could have one from his own spells?
Seams kinda points wasting, from what i see and what i do. You bring van horstmann's speculum and the rest is up to each player.

Yes, you're right, the list is wrong in that respect. Holy relic should have been given to another character.
@WarlordKyle: It is possible to have good Ward saves for every Empire character in a 2000 pt game but not always necessary

I'm not sure about giving Van Horstmann's to the Arch Lector as players tend to avoid being in combat with the War Altar but it is a matter of taste.


the problem is his brets do have alot of shooting, at least 40 archers and a Trebuchet. So i cannt advance that far, i need to wait for him to be closer, to avoid getting shot and manage a charge before he does.

Yes, you're right in being wary. The Steam Tank could absorb 40 shots unscathed but a Large Target Mount could be destroyed in 2 turns of shooting plus S&S from the humble arrow.
40 shots at long range - 27 hits on average - 9 saves for a S4 target and 4 or 5 saves for a S5 target.

You can circumvent the problems of massed shooting by
a) having large units confronting it
b) using fast moving ItP units with good armour saves to move to its flank and charge later
c) targeting the shooters with your own magic and shooting
d) getting into combat quickly
e) shielding using terrain or a screening unit

Warlord Kyle
25-11-2007, 00:24
does anyone have experience using a griffon for empire?

Warlord Kyle
25-11-2007, 03:07
Heres a new army list idea:

245 1 Templar Grand Master Rune fang
170 5 inner circle knights full command

141 1 Warrior Priest shield, heavy armor, sword of sigmar

150 15 Flagellants
180 15 Greatswords full command
110 15 Spearmen full command
88 11 Handgunners
100 10 Huntsmen

Detachments
80 10 Handgunners
96 16 Halberdiers

129 5 outriders champion and musican
100 1 great cannon
110 1 Helblaster volley gun

300 1 Steam Tank

=1999pts
107 models

what does everyone think, might work against brets?

BGS
25-11-2007, 05:30
doesn't seem bad, you'll have to play to find your own taste of what to use, but to my knowledge detachments can only be half as big as their parent unit and only an empire general may take a great fang. If running a grand master i prefer the enchanted shield, holy relic, and either the sword of power or the sword of fate.

Makarion
25-11-2007, 05:47
Let's see...

Runefang can only be used by a general, so you're out of luck with the Grand Master.

A unit of 15 spearmen is way too small to be useful, I would suggest at least 24 (6 wide, 4 deep) - but probably 30.

Huntsmen were almost worth considering in 6th edition, but now they lost their longbows, they surely are mostly there for flavour and theme. Replace them with an archer detachment, and have that run up the middle to marchblock. Ar skimishers they might survive long enough to slow your opponent down. Or, if you want to go war machine hutning, consider pistoliers.

BGS is right in that detachments can only be half the size of the parent unit each. Even with big units, though, I would field a handgunner detachment more than 6 big.

Why the outrider champion? He's sometimes worth his points with one of his special weapon options, but without that he's not particularly worth it, compared to an extra outrider.


As for facing Bretonnians with a list like this:

Marchblocking is going to be important, and I'd bring 2*5 pistoliers for that, plus at least 1 detachment of 6-8 archers.

Consider going magic-heavy and take Lore of Life to hinder his progress. This, of course, only works if there's going to be a fair bit of terrain. Lore of Metal will also be very good. Something like an arch lector (but only with altar, otherwise wizard lord), 2 level 2 battle wizards and a BSB captain should be a decent hero selection.

Halberds are only a good detachment in dealing with his yeomen or peasants. You're better off with more handgunners otherwise.

Consider bringing more ranged combats, and especially crossbows. They can reach his lines in the first turn, whereas handguns cannot. A single unit of crossbows has helped me many times in dealing with enemy fast cavalry, war machines or archers.


Wel, there's surely more that can be said, but this should give you a few ideas, I hope. Good luck!

DeathlessDraich
25-11-2007, 10:24
In addition to the good pts mentioned above,

1) If you chose the Templar Grand Master, then it is preferable that he is mounted and joins a unit of knights. Give him Laurels of Victory - always a shock to opponents.

2) Increase the size of your infantry blocks to at least 20 to maintain the extra rank advantage against the lance formation.

3) Reduce your detachment size to 5-8, and have more detachments. They will be extremely useful in deflecting your opponents attacks in addition to their detachment abilities.

4) Use Free Company as detachments - cheap and 2 attacks

5) You need some magic defence - you have next to nothing at the moment. 1 Level 1 wizard with 2 scrolls is the recommended minimum

6) Huntsmen could be a total waste of points if the terrain layout is unsuitable. They might be reduced to only march blocking as their shooting is not effective.
As Makarion suggested, use only X bows as shooters as they will be far more effective against the type of army you'll be facing.
Good luck.

Warlord Kyle
25-11-2007, 15:36
the master is mounted and is with the inner circle knights, he uses absolutly no damsels and the whole point of the huntsmen is to be able to kill the crew of his treb. The field will have alot of terrain.