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View Full Version : The New Daemon Prince have your say!!



maccas
22-11-2007, 14:27
Well if you look at the wargear you could take with the old codex the Daemon prince was great a monster,but i dont know with the new codex its like yer its big and stuff but where is the slap him in a group of 20 or 30 and watch him hold his own.

i feel with the new codex i was robbed of a great HQ slot

what do i have to do get a greater daemon??

RampagingRavener
22-11-2007, 14:31
Single models should not be powerful enough to trash 20-30 models alone. The new Daemon Prince is certainly still powerfull, but frankly I'm glad to see it's been neutered. Of course, if you do want one to take on so many models, give him a supporting squad, or soften said enemy models up fire firepower first, etc. Speaking as a Chaos player, it's good to see people needing to put a bit more thought into how they use their HQ's than throwing them down the board into combat.

EVIL INC
22-11-2007, 14:32
Most of the stuff the daemon prince comes with "built in" are things that many players bought for them out of the wargear list anyways. I am actually happy to have a DP with a decent BS now so it is not worthwhile to buy him/her a psychic power that does not involve the flamer template. Still a very good and usefull unit that I am successfully using.

Askari
22-11-2007, 14:39
I find it a little daft that the Daemon Princes now are completely uncustomisable, I mean, why no Daemon Weapons? Extra CCW? Great Weapon?

But I do like them in general.

UncleCrazy
22-11-2007, 14:42
A 200pt mini should not be able to kill 500 to 1000pts of minis every game. There is a name for that and that is "HeroHammer 40k" well I am many other like me just play Warhammer 40k.

He can not take upgrades becaues he is a Demon not Space Marine

pookie
22-11-2007, 14:54
A 200pt mini should not be able to kill 500 to 1000pts of minis every game. There is a name for that and that is "HeroHammer 40k" well I am many other like me just play Warhammer 40k.

He can not take upgrades becaues he is a Demon not Space Marine

A Marine Raised to daemon status..... im happy with him/her/it as is.

maccas
22-11-2007, 15:14
i can see what people are saying maybe am looking for abit much 20 models,but can you get my point i think like ive been waitin for this codex for a while its just missing key bits for me.


off the topic here chaos players could you list your HQ you use

and does anyone use the new bikes rules as am thinkin of getting some and would like to know what people think on it

dcikgyurt
22-11-2007, 15:22
Well, I'm now fielding a dp with wings, Mark of Slaanesh and warptime. An the best thing about it is that I can kill Hive tyrants before they get to attack me (as every 'nid player I know takes their adrenaline glands as a WS upgrade rather than I).

feelnopain666
22-11-2007, 15:24
As the rest of Codex:CSM, the DP are as boring and uncustomisable as it can be possible.
the best HQ choice is without a doubt the scorcerer.

lord_blackfang
22-11-2007, 15:27
the best HQ choice is without a doubt the scorcerer.

If by "best" you mean "least likely to do anything useful" then yes.

srg.cutter
22-11-2007, 15:29
ok one problem... NO GUN!!!! what the ****.
just cause your al powerful doesnt mean you dont like to shoot stuff. this especially pisses me of in "Dawn of War" where the deamon prince clearly has a gun but simply cant/wont use it.
its as if Gw pulled it out last minute or simply like to **** me off

EVIL INC
22-11-2007, 15:29
and does anyone use the new bikes rules as am thinkin of getting some and would like to know what people think on it
Well, since getting the codex, I used bikes exactly one time. I even went the thousand sons on bikes route with the icon (yes, I know they only get the 5+ inv save unless they boost in which case its 2+) My inability to make and armor/inv saves denied me the chance to see how well they work as they were killed right off without ever seeing action. Grumble grumble. :p

Sholto
22-11-2007, 15:30
My 2 HQ choices are DP w/ Wings and Warptime and Chaos Lord with jump pack and paired lightning claws. Both make excellent CC monsters with great mobility, and are reasonably cheap.

As for DP upgrades, since he used to be a Chaos Marine, being a daemon is the upgrade ;)

EDIT: I have used a squad of 5 bikers (MoK + Champion) once, but I used them foolishly and they all died to a man! Still, the middle of the battleground looked so empty and inviting - what blood-crazed biker squad wouldn't charge across it into a hail of gunfire?

Sholto

Gaz
22-11-2007, 15:31
I would of preferred a bit more customisation...but they're still pretty snazzy.



but Why can't he have a daemon weapon? I'd of thought that'd be the first thing he was given :D

Reinnon
22-11-2007, 16:05
most likely due to balance, and to give chaos lords something funky to use thats unique.

deamon princes require a bit of care to use due to the fact they are massive bullet magnets, but i've found them to be very useful for taking out troops with limited close combat ability, and the fact you can deep strike them now adds a new dimension on their tactics.

best HQ choice in the codex outside of special characters in my honest opinion

Galaspar
22-11-2007, 16:06
I've found the new DP great fun to use. My current one is lovingly converted winged Nurgle monstrosity, and frequently makes solo flank charges, providing there's enough cover for him to avoid the worst of the first couple of turns shooting. He's not gauranteed to mash up an entire gunline when he hits the side of it, but ussually manages to wipe out/scare away it least one expensive devastor-type squad. And when he does go down it's no great loss - since he's relatively cheap these days he's fairly expendable. Much rather the enemy fire at him, who might survive several lascannon, than at my defiler, which ussually falls to one of them.

As for the lack of guns, you can always use your firearm to represent a shooting-type psychic power. One of them (I forget the name) is only 10 points, and provides handy AP3 shooty death as your beloved abomination charges in.

dcikgyurt
22-11-2007, 16:11
One of them (I forget the name) is only 10 points, and provides handy AP3 shooty death as your beloved abomination charges in.

Doombolt! :p

That said, Wind of Chaos is also a fantastic shooting attack and unlike doombolt it can hurt vehicles.

Hicks
22-11-2007, 16:15
My friend used two flying Nurgle Princes against my guards the last time we played (in a 1500pts game! :eek:), they killed at least 60 guardsmen and a Leman Russ together, I think that's plenty powerfull.

I mean they are still fast and resilient enough to get into combat and once they get there they still do a lot of dammage for what they cost.

Mort
22-11-2007, 16:35
Well, if you keep their relytivly low points cost in mind i think they are a good unit.

And every chaos force should have one,just because they look so cool...

The pestilent 1
22-11-2007, 17:09
And every chaos force should have one,just because they look so cool...

No.
Daemon Princes are the best of the best, the Paragons of evil and darkness, the vilest most despicable beings in the Universe.

Like the C'tan, they should not exist in 40K tabletop, maybe in Apocalypse and then as a legendary unit.

I mean hell, Lorgar was elevated to Daemon-hood for plotting the downfall of Horus and half the Imperium.
If that says "Everyone should get one" then there is something terribly wrong with Warhammer.

EVIL INC
22-11-2007, 17:16
Well, there are daemon princes and then there are Daemon Princes. If you remember the R.o.C. book, you could have a daemon prince who had the toe of an owl, 4 legs (no arms) and be 3 feet tall and helpless in a fight.
The daemon princes have changed since then though (unfortunately), then a daemon prince could come and go as they wished. They were minor gods in thier own right who were worshipped and blah blah blah, you get the point. Lorgor was one of that genre. The ones you see on the tabletop, arent "REAL" daemon princes, I see them as wannabes who have been given powers so that they THINK they are in order to appease them and keep them fighting for the dark gods. Sort of a practical joke on them that if they were to call the dark gods on it, the dark gods can always just say, "you have a problem with that? There are other things I could give you...:eyebrows:" In which case the "daemon prince" would just have to suck it up and deal with what he has and accept his role and position.

The pestilent 1
22-11-2007, 17:24
/Snip

So current Princes represent that Sorcerer from the Diary of a Chaos marine?
You know, "The Plaything of the Chaos Powers" :p

EVIL INC
22-11-2007, 17:27
LOL. Oh they are on the road to true Daemon Prince-dom. Just not as far along as they would like to think they are. Chances are, almost all of them will either be killed long before then or, become spawn long before then.

RampagingRavener
22-11-2007, 17:34
As to why a Daemon Prince can't take a Daemon weapon, I belive someone gave this explanation which seems to fit pretty well. A Chaos Lord is trying to acheive daemonhood, and thus will take risks to get there, such as binding and using a powerfull-but potentially fatal-daemon weapon. A Daemon Prince as already acheived his ascent, so doesn't need to take such risks any more.

superknijn
22-11-2007, 17:41
Well, you're talking about Daemon Primarchs, which is on a whole other power scale. It is true, however, that Daemon Princes are rare, as only the strongest of Chaos Champions could hope to gain the attention of a Chaos power, if only for a split second, and be rewarded with daemonhood. I would not expect any run of the mill chaos warband to be run by a Daemon Prince, but it isn't by any means very unique either.

That siad, Daemon Princes do have nice rules, and I would gladly field one, although only if my force had at least 150 models, at the bare minimum.

sabre4190
22-11-2007, 17:41
The pestilent one brings up a great point. becoming a daemon prince is "a little" hard. I always found it odd that every 700 point warband consisting of 30 models at most managed to have a prince in it.

Still, I am thankful for the changes to the daemon prince. I loved the narrative that the old powers could provide, as you could watch a commander grow and become something that you made. Unfortunately, this was abused beyond belief. Power gamers turned an awesome concept into a nightmare. No wonder GW had to put an end to it.

The pestilent 1
22-11-2007, 17:45
I think a scaled power-creep on the Prince would have been best.
Say, pick A, B or C, with each one increasing in power and giving the benefits of the previous two.

Soo, A would give =1 T, A and W
B would give A as well as =1 I and WS
C would give A and B as well as, I dunno, big sword-o-doom or something.
It would allow the power creep narrative as well as making the rules pretty easy.

Imperialis_Dominatus
22-11-2007, 18:03
oits as if Gw pulled it out last minute or simply like to **** me off

I feel this all the time, and not just from GW. Most of the time they really aren't trying to **** you off, they are just stupid. Poor McDonald's lady, I had no idea she had a family and all...


If by "best" you mean "least likely to do anything useful" then yes.

Owned. Though Warptime+Force Weapon has to do something useful... :angel:

Reinnon
22-11-2007, 18:23
the 40K codexes hardly give a precise record of what exists in the fluff.

their are 2 c'tan yes, but theres at least a few hundred deamon princes, even thousands - all of whom pretty much seek out battles.

not to include the deamon prince in the codex would have been silly, if we are going to go down this road surely their would be a rule that stated that all imperial players must have 2 imperial guard armies to each space marine army, or that each xenos player must collect 3 ork armies for each army.

deamon primarches are different solely because of their importance in fluff, the c'tan are a blip in the system, but both deamon princes and c'tan have "means to resurrect" so it makes sense to include them in battles.

the game of 40K doesn't relfect the fluff, deamon princes have a right to be inside the codexes.

Edit: please don't bring up warp time and force weapons

EVIL INC
22-11-2007, 18:36
Well, you do see space marine commanders and champions leading loads of battles. You see avatars in almost every eldar army ect ect. It is only to be expected that our "gods eye" are drawn to the battles where these forces play a part. Assume that for every battle "we" see that has a daemon prince or avatar or whatever the case may be, there are loads that they do not make an appearance. We are only partaking of the ones where they are.

bhusus
22-11-2007, 18:53
The Daemon Prince's are fine as is - I field one with no mark and wings and against even some of the best CC in the game (DE) they do very well...well maybe not so much against Wyches...if I add doombolt he can shoot down some wyches before combat even begins - awesome. As for being in the game or not, I take it these Daemon Princes aren't the top brass - more like recent creations - at least I hope that's the case...

kishvier
22-11-2007, 18:58
I utterly hate the new DP. I used to have one that had Str 8 on charge and 5 attacks that flew! Also, no armour saves. It said:
"Hello Mr. Space Marine Captain." and then:
"Goodbye Mr. Space Marine Captain because I just one hit you.:p"

bhusus
22-11-2007, 19:09
Yeah that's kind of what the problem was

zendral
22-11-2007, 19:13
Glad the power level dropped, glad that a player should actually think about having a chaos lord or prince and not take a prince as a "no duh" choice, glad that a railgun can't pop it in one go. Glad that the BS went up.
Sad about the lack of customization, sad that for some reason you can take two, sad that a Tzeentch prince with warptime is a lot better in CC than a khorne one.

As far as fluff and prince's...keep in mind there are all types of power levels. A daemon prince may be able to swamp a planet in blood with a hand gesture, but most are just immortal chaos marines with he power of a daemon. These guys are the most common.

TheOverlord
22-11-2007, 19:25
I love the new DP. I run him with a mark of Tzeentch to get the 4+ save and an extra psychic power :D I really really wished the DP would receive a daemon weapon, or at least bump his basic attack profile to 5, but ciest la vie, it works anyway :D I managed to take 7 plasma wounds and come out with 6 saves :D Go me! (never try this at home kids)

I do agree that the DP's has lost quite a bit of flavor for me, but every DP in the previous edition more or less looked almost exactly the same or at variation of the same thing, so it's no big loss that they rounded it up into one, I just want daemonic visage back T_T That was my favourite option...

TzeentchForPresident
22-11-2007, 19:54
As for the changes to Daemon Prince I simply /shrug. He is still effective and much cheaper than a pimped up old one. That he canīt be insta-killed by S10 attacks is a big plus.

But someone really must have dropped the big book of fluff somwhere because we can have 2? I canīt read anywhere that becoming a Daemon Prince is an easy task. After all Kharne, Ahriman, Abbaddon.. etc. havenīt succeded yet.

kishvier
22-11-2007, 19:57
I think abaddon could, he is just so angry he doesn't think he needs immortality to do it.

zendral
22-11-2007, 20:04
I think abaddon could, he is just so angry he doesn't think he needs immortality to do it.

that and the longer you deny daemonhood, the more powerful you will be when you finally make it. He wants daemonhood, just not untill the emperor is dead and the imperium is cast down.

The pestilent 1
22-11-2007, 20:10
It's more that he doesn't want it.
He feels that his vengeance must be a human victory for it to count.

kishvier
22-11-2007, 20:30
Okay, that doesn't make a ton of sense but it makes enough to be plausable.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
22-11-2007, 21:28
IMO it was bad for 40k that Chaos Lord was NERFED. he cost 10 point less than BA/DA Captain and have worse Inv and his only advantage is WS6[not to mention he dont have Rites of Battle power]. it is something wrong with it :/

Daemon Pince at least is cheap :/

Seth the Dark
22-11-2007, 22:08
The Demon Prince is still a decent buy and can hold his own for awhile but the lack of customization is kind of annoying.

RavenMorpheus
22-11-2007, 22:16
He can not take upgrades becaues he is a Demon not Space Marine

No he cannot take upgrades because GW are dumbing down the codices because people these days seem to have problems reading and comprehending the rules.

I don't agree with the way the new codices are being written, just because some players use the rules to play "herohammer" as people call it doesn't mean that the rest of us who like to customise characters to add a bit of our own flavour/fluff to the game should be penalised by not being able to do so.

And I for one am not happy about not being able to "build" my own Daemon Prince - why should I use a generic one that everyone else will be using just because some kids out there can't read, write and comprehend or because some gamers exploit the rules to make their games into "herohammer"!

Pooky
22-11-2007, 23:00
A 200pt mini should not be able to kill 500 to 1000pts of minis every game.

A truer statement there is not...

Godgolden
22-11-2007, 23:07
Chaos players were used to winning i guess.. and a daemon price almost assured that, god i hated him.

Though i do miss the challenge of facing such a singular unpriced character.

taedore
23-11-2007, 01:54
I think a scaled power-creep on the Prince would have been best.
Say, pick A, B or C, with each one increasing in power and giving the benefits of the previous two.

Soo, A would give =1 T, A and W
B would give A as well as =1 I and WS
C would give A and B as well as, I dunno, big sword-o-doom or something.
It would allow the power creep narrative as well as making the rules pretty easy.

I agree that this would be a great system. It was called Rogue Trader. They had 4 grades for all races, the 1st grade being Grunt, 2nd being Champion, 3rd Minor hero, and 4th Major Hero. Great system worked well, BS meant something and so did WS also. But, hey, GW wants to get away from flexibility and more towards generic mass producible miniature ranges, focused on hth. The original system was much more oriented to variety of generic weapons, there were no race specific choices because they had built generic weapons in every class and every race used a weapon that could fit into that profile.

Now they desire a much more limited range of hth units with a limited use of ranged weaponry as this would slow down a game and put more of a focus on longer protracted strategic battles and it is my opinion that they are concerned that people will get bored by longer games and have less of a desire to play. To further this the reduction in skill level modifiers in hth leads to more swarm armies being used and therefore more models being sold over the prior system of high skill level characters and elite troops being able to give as good as they got against swarm armies, which tended to decrease sales as less miniatures were necessary with elite troops.

I realise this has gotten slightly off topic. But it does tend to explain the reduction in effectiveness for the DP as they can only sell one model there and they can sell you 5 different Chaos Lords instead. I had hoped that Apocalypse would correct this trend and bring back certain concepts and possibly add some effective rules (such as area of command, 4" radius that a unit must maintain coherency within, effective for keeping swarm units realistic). But alas No, that would mean that GW was dealing with the real rules mongering that is occuring and would require them to lay down clear and concise rules.

Kasonic
23-11-2007, 02:03
And I for one am not happy about not being able to "build" my own Daemon Prince - why should I use a generic one that everyone else will be using just because some kids out there can't read, write and comprehend or because some gamers exploit the rules to make their games into "herohammer"!

People who feel this selfish need to be different from everyone else 'just because' really bother me...

And if customization doesn't make the Daemon prince more powerful, what's the point? Adding a Wound here and a Strength there isn't 'exploiting the rules,' it's HeroHammer and it sucks and ruins 40k.

Daemon Princes are perfect.

And the reason they don't have Daemon Weapons is purely balance. Why would you ever, ever buy a Chaos Lord if you could get a DP with a Daemon Weapon with such a strictly superior statline and psychic powers for only 20 points and a bolt pistol? Answer: You wouldn't.

RampagingRavener
23-11-2007, 03:00
And the reason they don't have Daemon Weapons is purely balance. Why would you ever, ever buy a Chaos Lord if you could get a DP with a Daemon Weapon with such a strictly superior statline and psychic powers for only 20 points and a bolt pistol? Answer: You wouldn't.

Admitadly there's the fact a Daemon Prince can be shot at before it hits combat due to being a Monsterous Creature, while a Lord has to have his squad destroyed, then the ones nearby, if you want to stand a chance of shooting him down before assaulting. Also IIRC the Lord can deepstrike due to Terminator armour, and a Daemon Prince can't, which is something.

Kasonic
23-11-2007, 03:05
Also IIRC the Lord can deepstrike due to Terminator armour, and a Daemon Prince can't, which is something.

Wings let you Deep Strike :cheese:

RampagingRavener
23-11-2007, 03:09
Wings let you Deep Strike :cheese:

Ah, so they do. Point stands though, there are reasons not to take a Daemon Prince over a regular lord; namely being that the Lord isn't going to attract every Lascannon/Railgun/Brightlance/etc on the tabletop, while a badly-played Daemon Prince will.

Kasonic
23-11-2007, 03:13
Obviously there are advantages and disadvantages beyond a DW, or they wouldn't exist in the Army List alongside each other. Nonetheless, the ability for a Daemon Prince to take a Daemon Weapon would make the HQ section for Chaos quite, quite bland.

bhusus
23-11-2007, 03:49
That and fluff-wise the DW is an item inhabited by a daemon whereas a DP is a Space Marine inhabited by a daemon - from my understanding the daemon in the weapon has the chance of corrupting and taking over its user hence the reason it prefers mortals whereas there would be no real benefit to working for an already inhabited immortal unit...

Axis
23-11-2007, 04:12
The old daemon prince was pretty cheese. The new one is far more balanced. It would be nice to have some customisation without going overboard but i can understand giving very limiting options after what happened with the previous one.

RavenMorpheus
23-11-2007, 04:15
People who feel this selfish need to be different from everyone else 'just because' really bother me...

And if customization doesn't make the Daemon prince more powerful, what's the point? Adding a Wound here and a Strength there isn't 'exploiting the rules,' it's HeroHammer and it sucks and ruins 40k.

Daemon Princes are perfect.

And the reason they don't have Daemon Weapons is purely balance. Why would you ever, ever buy a Chaos Lord if you could get a DP with a Daemon Weapon with such a strictly superior statline and psychic powers for only 20 points and a bolt pistol? Answer: You wouldn't.

Well ok lets take it a step further and say you've got one HQ unit choice, one Troops unit choice, 1 Elites unit choice 1 Fast attack unit choice and 1 Heavy Support unit choice and nothing else.

That's balanced, kind of seems like the Necron codex to me - totally boring, no real character to the army but it's balanced and it wouldn't be "herohammer"...

Hell GW might as well publish a codex with just 1 Troop unit as a choice, and no other entries in the army list, that'd be the ultimate balance.

One of the main reasons GW have "nerfed" "herohammer" imo is because they're not making enough money on the models because people buy one HQ choice, tool it up and buy as few models for the rest of the army as possible.

And yeah ok if you can't come up with tactics to defeat "herohammer" armies the game isn't any fun but GW knows it can make more Ģ/$ by forcing us, by rules changes, to use more troops/elites and thus having to buy more models (not to mention the new codices/bgb's), so rather than publishing informative articles in it's advertisement leaflet, oops sorry magazine :angel:, WD detailing how to defeat such "herohammer" armies using superior tactics it'd rather force rules changes which imo are making the game bland and boring by cutting out the options, not just for characters but also units, but still at least the GW and their shareholders are making more Ģ/$!

I personally would like the option of playing "herohammer" every now and then.

logosloki
23-11-2007, 04:26
Statwise the DP is solid. I just wished that the mark it gained was the cult mark (unless I'm reading it wrong they only gain the lower mark, not the cult mark). Other options would be nice. Like maybe a ranged weapon or able to take a retinue of lesser demons (cause that would look awesome and I know that GW is shunning dedicated retinues but it could of been funny). It doesn't need a demon weapon. I wouldn't go that far. If they gave the DP demon weapons they might as well given sorcerers demon weapons then nobody would of used DPs or Lords because the sorcerer would rock too much (and khorne would lose out again).

The biggest loser is a Khornate demonprince because it can't take any psychic powers. It would of been nice if they gave Khorne something, anything to replace the fact that it can't have a power.

Hellebore
23-11-2007, 04:31
IMO it was bad for 40k that Chaos Lord was NERFED. he cost 10 point less than BA/DA Captain and have worse Inv and his only advantage is WS6[not to mention he dont have Rites of Battle power]. it is something wrong with it :/

Daemon Pince at least is cheap :/

He is also Fearless. WS6 is a MASSIVE advantage in a world were most ICs are WS5, he will almost always beat those 10pt more expensive characters in combat.

The new chaos lord is kewl.

I like the daemon prince too.

Hellebore

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-11-2007, 04:35
Khornate Daemon Prince was ultimate cheese in recent edition :P

IMO it is good for game balance that DP is not ultimate waepon of destruction.

btw nobody actually took Chaos Lord - it sucks - it is expensive, and way less effective than Sorcerer and Daemon Prince ...

Chaos Lord R.I.P

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-11-2007, 04:40
He is also Fearless. WS6 is a MASSIVE advantage in a world were most ICs are WS5, he will almost always beat those 10pt more expensive characters in combat.

The new chaos lord is kewl.

I like the daemon prince too.

Hellebore

really ?

chaos lord with lighting claws and Jump Pack - 140 points

chaos sorcerer with warp time and Jump Pack - 145 points

against 90% of opponents such Chaos Sorcerer is better than chaos lord
against rest it is only very slightly worse [only those with WS5]
and we dont even started talking about other psychic powers ...

those 10 points more expensive characters have 4+ inv and useful ability [or really powerful one like chaplain]

Kasonic
23-11-2007, 04:46
Well ok lets take it a step further and say you've got one HQ unit choice, one Troops unit choice, 1 Elites unit choice 1 Fast attack unit choice and 1 Heavy Support unit choice and nothing else.

You completely missed my point. Actually I don't see how that applies to my post at all.

A Daemon Prince with a Daemon Weapon makes a Chaos Lord completely irrelevant. Thanks to the fact that they may NOT take them, Chaos has 2 distinct HQ choices with their own flavorful advantages and disadvantages.

There is a difference between distinct and interesting choices, and what basically amounts to character VDR that lets you build Carnifexes.

RavenMorpheus
23-11-2007, 04:49
You completely missed my point. Actually I don't see how that applies to my post at all.

A Daemon Prince with a Daemon Weapon makes a Chaos Lord completely irrelevant. Thanks to the fact that they may NOT take them, Chaos has 2 distinct HQ choices with their own flavorful advantages and disadvantages.

There is a difference between distinct and interesting choices, and what basically amounts to character VDR that lets you build Carnifexes.

Well you mentioned balance, having only 1 unit in each slot to choose from - I.e books with 1 printed entry in each section HQ/Elites/Troops etc, is the ultimate in balancing acts...

And no it doesn't make the Chaos Lord completely irrelevant, unless your playing to win and not for fun, choices are there so you can take them, not so people can look at the codices and exploit all the "holes" in them, which I understand is what has happened but there are ways to defeat such gamers.

And what is wrong with taking a Chaos Lord over a DP with a DW, despite the Chaos Lord being not as good as the DP with DW?


Khornate Daemon Prince was ultimate cheese in recent edition :P

Everytime I used a Khorne DP it got shot and killed by 4+ Lascannons, or in some rather unfortunate cases by a couple of units full of bolters - that's what I mean about using tactics to defeat "herohammer" armies, they are not unbeatable and can be overcome and part of the fun in the game imo was coming up with ways to overcome such armies by using tactics such as tying up "herohammer" units with cheap, expendable units - nurglings spring to mind...

Now all you have to do imo is prepare for the bland cookie cutter armies and use the same in-battle tactics each game because you don't have to use tactics when picking your army.

There is no longer a case of "shall I take this unit or is this one better" because all the choices in the codices have been made no-brainers imo, you just end up saying to yourself "yep, I'll take that, that and that - job done army list written" and to me half the fun of the game has been taken out, sure it's all well and good to rely on tactics on the battlefield but tactics used in picking your army can also help hugely to win a game, especially if your opponent is of equal capabilities.

Under the old codex my Khornate Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour with a pair of Lightning Claws did much better than a DP and I'd say the same is probably true of the new rules, so saying upgrades create "herohammer" and no-one would take a Chaos Lord if the DP was allowed upgrades is kind of redundant imo and I've had 15 years of experience that allows me to see that...

Rahveel
23-11-2007, 04:54
does anyone use the new bikes rules as am thinkin of getting some and would like to know what people think on it

Yeah, I use 5 bikes (champ w/ P fist, 2 meltaguns/ undivided icon) they perform quite well for me. adding the Icon means they are extremely effective at getting 2nd turn deep strikers (daemons and termies) into a good position. when your opponent realizes this he oft directs more shooting than is perhaps advisable, as T5 3+ (or 2+) inv models are very tough to kill. If they do live past their delivery use, they make very effective tank hunters. never regretted using them, in fact, I am thinking of getting another unit of 4, and an HQ on a bike to join them.

Kasonic
23-11-2007, 04:55
Now all you have to do imo is prepare for the bland cookie cutter armies and use the same in-battle tactics each game because you don't have to use tactics when picking your army.

I fail to see how your point applies at all. You're saying that an army led by a what amounts to an MC in sheep's clothing is tactically superior to all others because you had to use an armory :confused::confused::confused:


Yeah, I use 5 bikes (champ w/ P fist, 2 meltaguns/ undivided icon) they perform quite well for me. adding the Icon means they are extremely effective at getting 2nd turn deep strikers (daemons and termies) into a good position. when your opponent realizes this he oft directs more shooting than is perhaps advisable, as T5 3+ (or 2+) inv models are very tough to kill. If they do live past their delivery use, they make very effective tank hunters. never regretted using them, in fact, I am thinking of getting another unit of 4, and an HQ on a bike to join them.

This is pretty much their best use. Terminator/Daemon-bombing. They generally don't hold up to infantry fire or CC unless you give them the Mark of Nurgle, which makes them the ultimate tarpits.

Meticulous
23-11-2007, 05:08
I think a scaled power-creep on the Prince would have been best.
Say, pick A, B or C, with each one increasing in power and giving the benefits of the previous two.

Soo, A would give =1 T, A and W
B would give A as well as =1 I and WS
C would give A and B as well as, I dunno, big sword-o-doom or something.
It would allow the power creep narrative as well as making the rules pretty easy.

So basically pull a slann? I wouldn't have minded seeing that.

RavenMorpheus
23-11-2007, 05:19
I fail to see how your point applies at all. You're saying that an army led by a what amounts to an MC in sheep's clothing is tactically superior to all others because you had to use an armory :confused::confused::confused:


No, that is not what I'm saying, not entirely - what I'm saying is that army composition/selection can give you an edge if your playing someone who is equally as capable of playing the game as you are.

Just because the armoury is there though doesn't mean you have to use it, but it's there if you want to. At least it was, but now that choice has gone, sure you still have to make a couple of choices but if you do need an edge because you and you opponent are so equally matched you can't get one because the options have been removed, and games will invariably end up in draws imo.

Removing the armoury/upgrades removes the option (which is just an option, not a "you must take upgrades" rule) of taking upgrades if you do need an edge because you and your opponents are equally matched in battlefield tactics.

Having a DW upgrade option for a DP does not make the Chaos Lord obsolete because you don't have to take the DP with a DW, you, and bear with me because this is a stretch of my imagination, could take a Chaos Lord instead :eek:, chances are he'd be more effective anyway because he doesn't stand out like an MC does as far as the shooting rules go.

Not only that but upgrades add to the "variety" through modelling/self made fluff in an army, now though you have to spend half an hour "educating" your opponent on what the parts of a scratchbuilt model "count as" because the options have been removed - unless your starting a new army, which'll be wysiwyg by default.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
23-11-2007, 05:31
No, that is not what I'm saying, not entirely - what I'm saying is that army composition/selection can give you an edge if your playing someone who is equally as capable of playing the game as you are.

Just because the armoury is there though doesn't mean you have to use it, but it's there if you want to. At least it was, but now that choice has gone, sure you still have to make a couple of choices but if you do need an edge because you and you opponent are so equally matched you can't get one because the options have been removed, and games will invariably end up in draws imo.

Removing the armoury/upgrades removes the option (which is just an option, not a "you must take upgrades" rule) of taking upgrades if you do need an edge because you and your opponents are equally matched in battlefield tactics.

Not only that but upgrades add to the "variety" through modelling/self made fluff in an army, now though you have to spend half an hour "educating" your opponent on what the parts of a scratchbuilt model "count as" because the options have been removed - unless your starting a new army, which'll be wysiwyg by default.

not true.

every chaos unit can have different mark/weapons/numbers/characters/psychic powers

you still have big amount of variety

beside - in every army there is 'gold standard' army which is the best. with codex with armoury and with codex without it.

about modeling - now you can create even more various DP - he can look exacly as you want

as far as i'm concerned not many models were invalidated so WYSWYG is *********. fluff argument is invalid also.

Imperialis_Dominatus
23-11-2007, 06:04
Edit: please don't bring up warp time and force weapons

Why not? I don't see a reason not to.

adreal
23-11-2007, 06:09
I like the new daemon prince, hell I even use two, one is my sorc for when he kill enough to warrent daemonhood, and the other is a loyalist chapter master that they went possessed on (ie binding a daemon inside of him), but as he wasn't a run of the mill marine (chapter master) so the daemon had to battle, and it got stronger, hence when it was all said and done, daemon prince.......

That and I want to use two with wings, MoS and warptime

Power Armored Zombie
23-11-2007, 06:30
I've only tried the new prince once and he did quite fine with MoN, Warptime, and Wings.

but currently i've been stuck on using Typhus and a Lash Sorc :)

PAZ

maccas
24-11-2007, 17:24
cool stuff dudes was not sure you could deepstrike a DP but thats new to me,

but was in gamesshop today and let it be said so far troops wise if your looking for da shoote firepower stick a 10 man mark of nurgle marines with two heavybolters HAHA they are so hard to get them out i tell ya.
so thinkin of getting a 10 man havocs with autocannons mark of nurgle what fun.

but anyhow moving on in games work shop as i have a sorcerer (which has not done me to well) i got a bike and a chaos lord the new box thinkin of putting him on that mark of nurgle only at the mo got abit of a can you cant you cos the way id see it he would be T6 i think am right

Necronlord3
24-11-2007, 18:46
Well if you look at the wargear you could take with the old codex the Daemon prince was great a monster,but i dont know with the new codex its like yer its big and stuff but where is the slap him in a group of 20 or 30 and watch him hold his own.

i feel with the new codex i was robbed of a great HQ slot

what do i have to do get a greater daemon??

I don't know about everyone else but I had between 100 and 150 shots and CC attacks directed at my New Codex Demon Prince yesterday and he stayed standing till turn 5.

Cry of the Wind
24-11-2007, 19:43
I personally would like the option of playing "herohammer" every now and then.


The play it with your own house rules against like minded players. I don't think it should be a standard part of 40k, a game that should be around the armies fighting and not just their leaders, why bother spending the money and time on an army that will be killed by an uber character. GW makes money selling armies not super characters, and super characters reduce the value of armies.

Just one thing I'd like to point out whenever I see complaints about dumbing down and lack of 2nd Ed rules. If those are what the majority of gamers want then why is Necromunda and Inquisitor so unpopular? Necromunda is very similar to what 2nd Ed was (granted even then it is simpler but not the same way 40k is) and yet no many people want to play that style of game. More complicated rules limit the time you spend playing and just increase the time rolling on tables or consulting a rulebook. If you want to play with larger forces 40k is for you. If you want greater detail play Necromunda or Inquisitor, they already exist and it wouldn't be hard to convert stats of models from 40k into those systems. The fact that most players don't what that is why 40k is going the way it is and why Necromunda and Inquisitor are not very popular.

Ok, now that I have that off my chest...

I like the new Daemon Prince overall. It has the best options from the old codex that don't make it too cheesy and the options in spell choice can 'counts as' some of the items that were lost. I like how they made it different that the lord, something that needed to be done in the old codex, where all lords were daemon princes or at least in the making. Look at Horus and Abbadon, neither of them were/are daemon princes, so it makes sense that it is not for everyone. It was fun the make your own prince but at the end of the day they all pretty much ended up looking the same, now we just don't have to waste the time to get there.

kishvier
24-11-2007, 20:50
The whole point of the old DP was to make it customizable! It was so much better when you could choose that you would take a Dark Blade of a Dread Axe not a Daemon Weapon of dullness. You could choose to up you str and attacks with D. strenght and D. Mutation. Now yours is the same as the next guys. I really REALLY hate the new DP and want the old one back, but I'm not going to get it.:mad::wtf::cries:

Moonwatcher
24-11-2007, 21:19
Unfortunatly i never got a chance to play under the 3rd edition codex so my coments are not really based at comparison more a case of how ace the daemon prince seems compared to other HQ's availaible.

I'm not a big fan of the nurgle or khorne daemon Prince's, i dont like the nurgle's rot power and with an already good amount of attacks i feel you can get better than the khorne mark.

slaanesh has obvious benefits (lash) however i prefer to use a sorcerer for my lash. which leads to my favorite version of the daemon prince - Tzeentch.

Tzeentch wins by a distance for me, the ability to take 2 psi powers AND that massive inv save mean that even in small games where al of the enemys fire is on him, he can still survive!

this i guess leads to the big down point of him, hes quite expensive, when hes fully kitted out he can cost nearly 20 points, which is quite alot for smaller games!

However, daemon princes get my vote!

Askari
24-11-2007, 21:19
The whole point of the old DP was to make it customizable! It was so much better when you could choose that you would take a Dark Blade of a Dread Axe not a Daemon Weapon of dullness.

You don't even get the Daemon Weapon of dullness....

kishvier
24-11-2007, 22:33
Lol, you know it. It totally stinks and then even when we get the new codex apoc comes out and chaos gets dwarfed.:wtf:

Necronlord3
25-11-2007, 00:15
The new Codex definitely did nerf more than a few units but I think the Demon Prince was a total improvement. He is cheaper and still has a few options. However, my favorite aspect of the new prince is that WYSIWYG is no longer a problem. I had issues with what WYSIWYG options the Demon Prince model was showing exactly? I am a fan of the WYSIWYG rule but I really hate it when options are not given a decent description to effectively represent it on a model.

Calden
25-11-2007, 00:42
I like him myself. I've always been one for taking simplistic HQs that aren't laden down with tons of extra doo-dads, so the new Daemon Prince is much more my cup of tea than the old one. I've found myself using a Prince alot more as a result.

Catachant
25-11-2007, 00:44
Man I hope that they bring out a Slaanesh DP, that would look so rad

Shibboleth
25-11-2007, 04:48
I don't like that there's no possibility for a 2+ save.
My Prince was born wearing Terminator armour, but it must have gone soft when he suddenly gained Monstrous size. :rolleyes:

I also miss Guns, being forced to choose the 'Mark of Tzeentch' just to proxy better firepower, and to increase the inv. save...

Ronin_eX
25-11-2007, 08:03
Hmm, you don't need the Mark of Slaanesh to take psychic abilities (so long as your aren't a DP of Khorne it is fine). As for the Terminator Armour issue that is mostly cosmetic as a DP couldn't take TDA in the first place. The Lord's ability to get a 2+ save is another upside to taking the Lord over the DP. In return the DP has better strength and toughness as well as more wounds. That could just as easily represent the DP having an old suit of TDA on as anything else. Besides when he grew the armour was sure to warp and distend and likely has more chinks and worse coverage than when he was smaller. Besides he still has a 5+ inv. save which works just fine if he wore TDA prior to ascension.

The new Daemon Prince is a powerhouse unit but it lacks the customization options of the Lord. It takes all of the upgrades that common statured princes took anyways (seriously most statured princes were always equiped with strength and toughness enhancers as well as extra wounds). It is a powerful combatant that can take psychic powers as well as wings and its choice of Mark. It is a damn powerful option and a good price as well. I think many Chaos players got too used to having loads of upsides without having to make any real sacrifices or hard decisions. Well now there are three choices for HQ and each one has its pros and cons. The same has happened with the newer Marine codices and the Ork codex coming soon follows the trend with all its HQ choices having upsides and downsides.

The truth is if the DP was simply a Lord with better options and stats then there would be no point in actually taking a Lord. 3rd edition and early 4th edition codices suffered from this flaw (ever seen a SM Captain instead of a Chaplain, Librarian or Master?) and it hurt the game because all it did was give the illusion of options where only a handful existed. The DP is still a good choice but it is not always the 'best' choice and it is just another decision a Chaos player needs to make when constructing a list. Having to make hard choices in list building can only be a good thing for improving the strategic possibilities in the game and I for one am glad to see the change.

The_Patriot
25-11-2007, 11:11
The whole point of the old DP was to make it customizable! It was so much better when you could choose that you would take a Dark Blade of a Dread Axe not a Daemon Weapon of dullness. You could choose to up you str and attacks with D. strenght and D. Mutation. Now yours is the same as the next guys. I really REALLY hate the new DP and want the old one back, but I'm not going to get it.:mad::wtf::cries:


You don't even get the Daemon Weapon of dullness....

This is not a flame, but what is so difficult about coming up with a name of your own for your daemon weapon? Seriously, it's no different then Sisters players coming up with a name and a look for their blessed weapons.

EDIT: It's not that hard to come up with a cool background story and look for your daemon weapon. What you're looking for is a special effect (weapon type and look) to impact the game greater then what it does now. Being a former Champions RPG player I cannot understand why it's hard for people to come up with ideas of their own that truly represents the characters in their army. There's a difference between special effects (cool fluff, design, etc..) and game mechanics. Losing the game mechanics does not mean that you lose the special effect.

Askari
25-11-2007, 11:30
This is not a flame, but what is so difficult about coming up with a name of your own for your daemon weapon? Seriously, it's no different then Sisters players coming up with a name and a look for their blessed weapons.

You missed my point.

A Daemon Prince doesn't get a Daemon Weapon, he doesn't get any type of weapon at all! He just comes with a single CCW.

The_Patriot
25-11-2007, 11:35
You missed my point.

A Daemon Prince doesn't get a Daemon Weapon, he doesn't get any type of weapon at all! He just comes with a single CCW.

You contradicted yourself. You say that a DP doesn't come with any type of weapon then state he comes with a CCW. Which is it?

You missed my point. There's nothing stopping you from saying that this CCW is a daemon weapon, write up a cool background for it, and model it based off of the background.

EDIT: This isn't a flame, but what you want is a 100 point character to be able to wound a model up to T5, at S7, on 2+ plus have d6 attacks in addition to the 4 base attacks a DP has. That's quite a lot overpowered which is why I can see why GW prohibited DPs from having daemon weapons. There's such a thing as balance and a blessed weapon is not nearly as good as a daemon weapon. There is no restriction upon the number of daemon weapons you can field while there's a 1 per army restriction upon blessed weapons. If you field 2 Chaos Lords you can field 2 daemon weapons.

superknijn
25-11-2007, 11:52
Most of the power of a Daemon Prince comes from being a Daemon, not having nice weapons. I think the rules portray that with excellence. I mean, ignoring armour saves and high S all come from the Daemon Prince Himself, and not some fancy weapon.

Necronlord3
25-11-2007, 13:55
I think the idea of a Demon being taken over by a demon, also does not make sense but, if a Demon is killed and drops his CCW then a mortal picks it up. He now has a Demon weapon. It makes since for the CCW to be treated as that and that only when wielded by the prince.

Supremearchmarshal
25-11-2007, 14:17
EDIT: This isn't a flame, but what you want is a 100 point character to be able to wound a model up to T5, at S7, on 2+ plus have d6 attacks in addition to the 4 base attacks a DP has. That's quite a lot overpowered which is why I can see why GW prohibited DPs from having daemon weapons. There's such a thing as balance and a blessed weapon is not nearly as good as a daemon weapon. There is no restriction upon the number of daemon weapons you can field while there's a 1 per army restriction upon blessed weapons. If you field 2 Chaos Lords you can field 2 daemon weapons.

Nothing is overpowered if it has a suitable points cost. What if the aforementioned Prince cost 200 points?

Yeah, he'd be unstoppable in close combat, but he'd be no tougher than a 100-point Prince.

Askari
25-11-2007, 14:20
You contradicted yourself. You say that a DP doesn't come with any type of weapon then state he comes with a CCW. Which is it?

Coming with a single CCW is pointless anyway, if it didnt say "armed with a single CCW" he would work exactly the same! There is no bonus at all for having a CCW.


You missed my point. There's nothing stopping you from saying that this CCW is a daemon weapon, write up a cool background for it, and model it based off of the background.

EDIT: This isn't a flame, but what you want is a 100 point character to be able to wound a model up to T5, at S7, on 2+ plus have d6 attacks in addition to the 4 base attacks a DP has. That's quite a lot overpowered which is why I can see why GW prohibited DPs from having daemon weapons. There's such a thing as balance and a blessed weapon is not nearly as good as a daemon weapon. There is no restriction upon the number of daemon weapons you can field while there's a 1 per army restriction upon blessed weapons. If you field 2 Chaos Lords you can field 2 daemon weapons.

Daemon Princes are not 100 points.
I didn't say I wanted a free Daemon Weapon
Blessed Weapons can't kill the owner either.
I don't even like the new Daemon Weapon, I prefer the choice of the old ones.
Heck my old Daemon Prince was 191pts, and yes he was S7 with A6, but only T4, 5+ Inv. save and no immunity to Instant Death... that way I had a very hard-hitting character with low survivability... the ability to do that was awesome.

The_Patriot
25-11-2007, 14:35
Nothing is overpowered if it has a suitable points cost. What if the aforementioned Prince cost 200 points?

Yeah, he'd be unstoppable in close combat, but he'd be no tougher than a 100-point Prince.

There wouldn't be anything really to stop him. With a T5 you'd need to roll 6+ to wound with S3, which is the average for most armies. As it stands now he's pretty tough.


Coming with a single CCW is pointless anyway, if it didnt say "armed with a single CCW" he would work exactly the same! There is no bonus at all for having a CCW.

He's still armed with a CCW which is contradictory to what you said. He gets one extra base attack over a Chaos Lord and Sorcerer, so I see no reason why you're complaining.


Daemon Princes are not 100 points.

I didn't give their actual value due to the rules of the forum. You know exactly what I meant by my statement.


I didn't say I wanted a free Daemon Weapon

No, you said you wanted an overpowered HQ.


Blessed Weapons can't kill the owner either.

It still doesn't change the fact that on the charge a DP armed with a daemon weapon can get up to 11 S7 attacks which wound on 2+. Do you prefer Swiss or Motzerella? A blessed weapon grants +2S and is master crafted that is also two handed. It's also 2/3rds of the cost of a daemon weapon, but is significantly restricted while daemon weapons are not.


I don't even like the new Daemon Weapon, I prefer the choice of the old ones.

Well times change and so do Codexes.


Heck my old Daemon Prince was 191pts, and yes he was S7 with A6, but only T4, 5+ Inv. save and no immunity to Instant Death... that way I had a very hard-hitting character with low survivability... the ability to do that was awesome.

No wonder you're crying about the balancing of DPs since he killed everything with a 2+ roll.

A new word for you today, Balance. Read up on it before you complain about how your units were down powered for the sake of game balance.

Askari
25-11-2007, 14:43
As I remember... Eldar Warlocks wounded Carnifexes on a 2+ to wound.
Witchblades are overpowered!
/sarcasmoff
If you're going to whine that I could wound things on a 2+, then you may as well whine about Space Marine Sergeants with Power Fists, or the C'Tan, or Tau Railguns...

Daemon Prince doesn't get a bonus attack over Sorcerers and Chaos Lords 95% of the time... reason... Bolt Pistol & CCW.

Abaddon gets A11 with S8 and re-rolls to wound, I see you're not complaining about him either.

My "contradiction" matters not, as I said, single CCW might as well not be in the list, he still doesn't get a choice of weapon.

Shibboleth
25-11-2007, 14:52
On Daemons weilding Daemon Weapons, isn't the Bloodthirsters Axe a Bound Daemon?

The_Patriot
25-11-2007, 14:54
As I remember... Eldar Warlocks wounded Carnifexes on a 2+ to wound.
Witchblades are overpowered!
/sarcasmoff

Oh yes, a warlock is sooo comparable to a Daemon Prince. :rolleyes:


If you're going to whine that I could wound things on a 2+, then you may as well whine about Space Marine Sergeants with Power Fists, or the C'Tan, or Tau Railguns...

I'm not the one who's whining, but you are. Power Fists hit on I1 and are balanced as are the other things you've mentioned. The key word is Balanced.


Daemon Prince doesn't get a bonus attack over Sorcerers and Chaos Lords 95% of the time... reason... Bolt Pistol & CCW.

He gets a +1 base attack over the other two which is what I said. Did you forget the huge difference in WS? I believe you did, so do you prefer Swiss or Motzerella?


Abaddon gets A11 with S8 and re-rolls to wound, I see you're not complaining about him either.

He also costs a hell of a lot more then a DP and is restricted to being 0-1. You also cannot change any of his options. Got anymore invalid comparisons?


My "contradiction" matters not, as I said, single CCW might as well not be in the list, he still doesn't get a choice of weapon.

Once again we're back to my original point which is that you can write up cool fluff and model the CCW how you like. It has zero impact on the game while what you want is an overpowered and undercosted HQ unit.

Industrial Propaganda
25-11-2007, 15:05
On Daemons weilding Daemon Weapons, isn't the Bloodthirsters Axe a Bound Daemon?

Yes, every Bloodthirsters wield an axe (Khorne favoured weapon) and a whip. And the power of the Axes of Khorne come from the daemon who is bound within it.


-OT- The new daemon prince is the worst entry that I have ever seen.
Come on... two daemon princes in a 2000-3000pts battle is just to unfluffy. Every daemon prince is a unique and uber-powerfull creature who rule an entire daemon world. I never play with them in my armies.

Shibboleth
25-11-2007, 15:07
Come on... two daemon princes in a 2000-3000pts battle is just to unfluffy. Every daemon prince is a unique and uber-powerfull creature who rule an entire daemon world. I never play with them in my armies.I think it would be more believable, and fun, to have 0-1 on the DP and unlimited on the Greater Daemon.

Preston
25-11-2007, 15:10
the reason it says the DP has 1 CCW is because if it didn't someone would say "then he can't make any attacks because he doesn't have any weapons."

Supremearchmarshal
25-11-2007, 15:17
On Daemons weilding Daemon Weapons, isn't the Bloodthirsters Axe a Bound Daemon?

Yes, and funnily enough, its got another Bloodthirster bound to it.

Askari
25-11-2007, 15:20
Oh yes, a warlock is sooo comparable to a Daemon Prince. :rolleyes:

You are the one who was whining "He wounds on a 2+!!!!!!!!"


I'm not the one who's whining, but you are. Power Fists hit on I1 and are balanced as are the other things you've mentioned. The key word is Balanced.

So was my old Daemon Prince, he costed double the current one, and was much, much easier to kill.


He gets a +1 base attack over the other two which is what I said. Did you forget the huge difference in WS? I believe you did, so do you prefer Swiss or Motzerella?

You fail to see the effect, +1 base attack means nothing 95% of the time, except when fighting Dark Eldar Wyches, or if the Chaos Lord has a Daemon Weapon. They get the same number of attacks otherwise, indeed, the Lord and Sorcerer can have more.


He also costs a hell of a lot more then a DP and is restricted to being 0-1. You also cannot change any of his options. Got anymore invalid comparisons?

The current Daemon Prince has barely any options anyway, and like I said with my other reply, I don't care about cost.


Once again we're back to my original point which is that you can write up cool fluff and model the CCW how you like. It has zero impact on the game while what you want is an overpowered and undercosted HQ unit.

Why do you keep going that I want an overpowered HQ? If so, I would have played the Eldar Seer Council last Eldar codex, but alas, no I didn't.

I want a true-to-form, customisable, Daemon Prince, which is still balanced, hey because balance doesn't come from making somethings rules equal a low points cost, you can make it more powerful and give it a higher points cost!

Right now, I can't have my old glass-cannon Prince, now I get someone who has as much damage output as your average Tac squad, who must be a
Monstrous Creature, but is tough to kill.

maccas
25-11-2007, 17:02
Dudes dam if only id known that peeps would fight so hard on the whole DP story!!haha

i think everyone would love to model there own HQ as they see fit ie.any army its your HQ so its kinda like how you would want to be if it was you in the army (yer open your mind for that one HAHA) but i think i take back my old points on the DP yer i would love a monster that could take over the warhammer world but in the end whats the point i guess takes the fun outta gaming i mean you will find all the new codex is cut back so its not to over the top any more you gotta think about your games again and for me thats the better.

Whats the best mark you have found to give you DP what works for you?

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
25-11-2007, 17:34
You are the one who was whining "He wounds on a 2+!!!!!!!!"


:wtf:

do you know that witchblades do not ignore armour saves ?:eek:

next please.

Askari
25-11-2007, 17:52
:wtf:

do you know that witchblades do not ignore armour saves ?:eek:

next please.

'course I do.

That wasn't the argument though was it :p

Necronlord3
25-11-2007, 22:16
On Daemons weilding Daemon Weapons, isn't the Bloodthirsters Axe a Bound Daemon?

I don't know considering there is no Blood Thirster anymore...:eyebrows:

Axis
25-11-2007, 23:24
Guys, don't forget the new prince is also immune to instant death. For the old prince to get immunity to instant death was what 35 points or something? Its not game breaking but it is useful, stops things like rail guns ruining your day completely.

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
25-11-2007, 23:34
Daemon Prince is actually most powerful Chaos Space Marine HQ.

yeah, it is less customisable, but anyway is very cost effective.

for those who cant create unique Prince - well, your last DP were non-unique also. everybody use same 2-3 builds anyway.

The_Patriot
26-11-2007, 00:08
You are the one who was whining "He wounds on a 2+!!!!!!!!"

Nope, pointing out that he's quite a bit overpowered.


So was my old Daemon Prince, he costed double the current one, and was much, much easier to kill.

Umm 192 points is not double the points value of a base DP is in 4th Ed.


You fail to see the effect, +1 base attack means nothing 95% of the time, except when fighting Dark Eldar Wyches, or if the Chaos Lord has a Daemon Weapon. They get the same number of attacks otherwise, indeed, the Lord and Sorcerer can have more.

You fail to see the balance in all of it.


The current Daemon Prince has barely any options anyway, and like I said with my other reply, I don't care about cost.

Ah so that's why you're crying. You've lost all those daemonic gifts and the huge 10 page armory that the DP had access to. It's not like any other army out there had 10 pages of armory and daemonic gifts. My heart truly bleeds for you. :rolleyes:


Why do you keep going that I want an overpowered HQ? If so, I would have played the Eldar Seer Council last Eldar codex, but alas, no I didn't.

And the Seer Council is no longer valid now is it? I didn't see many Eldar players crying and gnashing their teeth over the loss of the Seer Council of Doom when they got their 4th Ed Codex.


I want a true-to-form, customisable, Daemon Prince, which is still balanced, hey because balance doesn't come from making somethings rules equal a low points cost, you can make it more powerful and give it a higher points cost!

Or you can balance it by making the rules streamlined and removing the 10+ page armory+daemonic gifts. Points do not balance something by itself. Points are good for indicating how powerful something is, but is generally not very accurate in and of itself.


Right now, I can't have my old glass-cannon Prince, now I get someone who has as much damage output as your average Tac squad, who must be a Monstrous Creature, but is tough to kill.

Right now, your glass cannon Prince is not valid. It's time to accept it and move on. You're crying about a better unit supplanting your old DP which is hilarious.

Lord Humongous
26-11-2007, 00:20
My main annoyance with the Daemon Prince is that taking the Mark of Khorne removes all the psychic options- which are effectively the only "weapon" options the prince has. So if you play a Khorne prince, you can;t get any special weapons or attacks- er, how's that again???

Imperialis_Dominatus
26-11-2007, 02:28
I think Khornate Daemon Princes could use more options but I'm fine with it otherwise. Reading through all the posts, I don't understand all the whining. Good posts, Patriot. Keep it up.

srg.cutter
26-11-2007, 09:55
I feel this all the time, and not just from GW. Most of the time they really aren't trying to **** you off, they are just stupid. Poor McDonald's lady, I had no idea she had a family and all...:

ah i know the feeling NO BRECKFAST AT 10;30 My ASS!!!!

also the deamon prince should have a plastic kit

Acheron,Bringer of Terror
26-11-2007, 11:01
metal kit is solid imo

no need for plastic - also i dont like demon prince concept. so i dont use him :]

Reaver83
26-11-2007, 11:20
i think the one thing that would have worked if you took MOK on a DP was a collar of khorne - would make up for lack of psychic powers

pookie
26-11-2007, 12:29
My main annoyance with the Daemon Prince is that taking the Mark of Khorne removes all the psychic options- which are effectively the only "weapon" options the prince has. So if you play a Khorne prince, you can;t get any special weapons or attacks- er, how's that again???

being a MC that extra attack imo is worth it.

Captain Micha
26-11-2007, 12:40
Daemon princes are still quite awesome, no more chaos threads.. go read the other 1000000

only a chaos player could whine about the new codex. sheesh

Mojaco
26-11-2007, 13:00
Ahriman isn't a daemon because he's not fighting for any of the gods, as he's trying to become one himself, using the black library to achieve this. He is not Tzeentch's pawn (at least, he thinks he isn't) and thus not elligable for Daemonhood.

AdmiralDick
26-11-2007, 14:51
Single models should not be powerful enough to trash 20-30 models alone.

why?

not all armies should work the same. there should be different emphasies in different races. and the cotext of an army is all important for that. if the he could do that and was backed up by a whole army of models that could do the same that out numbered all there opponents it would be an unfair advantage. but that doesn't mean their can't be the right context for such a model.

what if he were the only unit in the army? what if there were other units, but they, at best, did nothing and at worst held him back? what if he were the 'glass cannon', unable to survive his initial onslaught? what if he were ludicrusly expensive?


The play it with your own house rules against like minded players. I don't think ["Herohammer"] should be a standard part of 40k, a game that should be around the armies fighting and not just their leaders

again, why?

i don't think anyone is suggesting that all armies should have impressivley tooled up HQ choices (although all HQ choices should be fairly powerful), but consider these two points.

a) HQ choices should reflect their armies and should bare some relevance to the rest of the army. Eldar are a psychic heavy army and being quite selfless (up until recently) did not have a 'hero' model to lead them in combat, thus they had farseers and seer councils that allowed the to add buffs to other units in the army. the Imperial Guard are relavitely ineffective as individuals and generally quite faceless, but work together to form more than the some of their parts, thus a IG HQ choice is not very customisable (which would almost certainly be a waste) but is useful for gluing the army together and preventing them from running away.

a chaos lord should also reflect his army. each one desperate to be the best at the expense of his fellows. he should be the most customisable unit in the game, full of vanity and conciet, but have little in game effect on the other units other than he is massively more powerful than them, allowing them to either follow in his footsteps or try and clear up behind him (if they can be trusted with such a complex task.)

b) as stated before why should having 'uber-tooled up' HQ choices not be a army's style? is it really much less valid than IG and Tau's reliance on fire power?

now, i'm not arguing that the previous codex perfectly represented this, or even that it was particularly balanced in that effect, but that the newer codex seems to just throw that diverse ideal to one side in favour of a system which is altogether more bland because it is indistiguishable from the system the Eldar use (and in the future Orks ad other codexes).


It would allow the power creep narrative as well as making the rules pretty easy.

that's one of the things that disappoints me most about the feel of the new codex. CSM are all looking to become the next daemon prince, leading the army and having everyone follow them, and there should be a visible narrative from basic troop to Asp Champ, to Champ, to Lord, to Daemon Prince. but that scale just isn't there.


That and fluff-wise the DW is an item inhabited by a daemon whereas a DP is a Space Marine inhabited by a daemon

not quite. a SM possessed of a daemon would be a Possessed. a Daemon Prince is a strange creature that has been transformed from a mortal into a something like a daemon. its not a daemon, but it is very similar.


And if customization doesn't make the Daemon prince more powerful, what's the point?

its the difference between being cavalry and being jump infantry. (or neither)

its the difference between carrying a flamer or a plasmagun.

its the difference between +1 Toughness and +1 Strength.

there are plenty of ways to have variety that do not increase the overall 'power' of a unit but allows it to have a very different use in the game.


He just comes with a single CCW.

why is that? why does anything get a single ccw? it has no in game effect. the only reason to do it is to mean you don't have to choose a ccw from the 'armoury' if you want one.


Most of the power of a Daemon Prince comes from being a Daemon, not having nice weapons. I think the rules portray that with excellence.

sadly, i have to entirely disagree with you on this one. the power of a daemon prince does not mean that he is automatically 20' tall and capable of punching through concrete by looking at it quite hard. simply having high stats is not enough to imply the raw power of a daemon prince over a block of stone.

and i had several daemon princes in my 3.5 army and none of them had deamonic stature because i thought it was so trite. now i cannot feild them because they have to be pushed into a model that they don't fit into.


also the deamon prince should have a plastic kit

that would force them even further down the 'cookie cutter' route. not only will they all have the same rules but most people will even have the same model!


Daemon princes are still quite awesome, no more chaos threads.. go read the other 1000000

only a chaos player could whine about the new codex. sheesh

if you have another topic you'd like to talk about then start a thread. but as i can see the nature of the Codex: Chaos Space Marines has been quite a powerful topic, that has generated more discussion on a number of different topic and from a number of different angles than anything else. Apoc didn't have this much discussion.

besides which, if you don't want to talk about it don't. there are hundreds of theads on this site that i don't look at let alone read and respond to. there are even forums that i don't go to. its quite easy to avoid the really. but just because you aren't interested doesn't mean we're not. i quite like talking about my army with other people.