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View Full Version : Don't think its a bit coincedential....



Commander Dante
22-11-2007, 19:22
Dont you think it is a bit coincedential that all the Primarchs landed on worlds where the rulers were humans? Before the Great Crusade the majority of the planets were ruled by xenos that were made extinct once the Crusade began. The obvious reason to explain why they all wound up in human worlds is because then there would be no Primarchs because they probably would have been killed, so it is my belief that by whatever force scattered the Primarchs that the Emperor must have had a guiding hand in order to deliver his sons "safley" onto human worlds.

anyway i digress what if one of the Primarchs landed on a planet landed controlled by xenos? maybe that is what happened to the two missing primarchs? I think it is funny to imagine a Primarch landing on a Ork planet and the Orks beleive him to be a god. So how would the Primarch react to the extermination of his inferior alien subjects? would the emperor made ork marines? Now im just rambling.. the floor is yours gentlmen.

brother alinski
22-11-2007, 19:28
the emperor wouldant creat ork mairnes, he was all for the human race, somthing did scatter the primarchs, chaos or the emperor or the primarchs themsleves.

Commander Dante
22-11-2007, 19:33
the ork marine was a joke future posters ignore it.

Maidel
22-11-2007, 20:11
Before the Great Crusade the majority of the planets were ruled by xenos that were made extinct once the Crusade began.

Unfortunately your entire premise for your thread falls down here.

The majority of the worlds they found were either unihabited (like eldar maiden worlds) or inhabited by humans that had lost contact with earth over the millenia.

If you read the HH books they meet about 3 alien planets - the rest are human (or at least part human) civilizations and empty planets.

The Judge
22-11-2007, 20:14
The ones in the books yes, but in the old background, it speaks of a great many worlds "under the thrall" of aliens or daemons.

Maybe not the majority, but a sizable number.

Sideros Peltarion
22-11-2007, 20:15
there would be no Primarchs because they probably would have been killed

Not necessarily. Remember Primarch matured within about 2/3 years of being discovered and even as babies were better fighters than a grown person. Angron himself was discovered surrounded by the corpses of Eldar who ahd obviously tried to kill him yet failed miserably.:evilgrin:

Maidel
22-11-2007, 20:18
The ones in the books yes, but in the old background, it speaks of a great many worlds "under the thrall" of aliens or daemons.

Maybe not the majority, but a sizable number.

ME thinks thats been quietly forgotten as the HH books imply that 'daemons' arent understood at all by the imperials until its too late - and they certainly havent met many, just small subtle referances.

Lord Cook
22-11-2007, 20:34
Remember that was a galaxy-spanning human empire before the Great Crusade. During the Dark Age of Technology, humanity used the Men of Iron (robotics) to help them conquer the galaxy. It was only civil war between humanity and their mechanical creations (who became self aware) that destroyed humanities empire, scattering it's peoples and leaving mankind stranded in the Age of Strife. Technology (such as the STC systems) is lost or corrupted. The rise of the Emperor ended the Age of Strife, uniting Terra behind the Emperor and then waging a Great Crusade to reclaim the old empire. The worlds would still have been human as well as xenos, but after centuries (or even millenia) of independence it required outright conquest by the Emperor to bring them back into line.

TheBigBadWolf
22-11-2007, 20:43
Yep its in the 3rd rulebook at the back, the men of stone created the men of iron. The majority of the worlds in the galaxy were inhabitated by humans the crusades purpose was to reunite humanity, the majority of the time they were fighting humans who did not want back into the empire. Humans had alread conquered the galaxy several times before the emperor and the primarchs. So there would have been a significant chance that a primarch would land on a human orientated world.

Tehkonrad
22-11-2007, 21:08
yeah thats true

Decius
22-11-2007, 22:21
It's possible that all the Primarchs landed on human worlds purely by chance (or probability, as some posters have pointed out). Maybe it's just me, but I like the idea that the Primarchs were not lost by accident. Could the Emperor have cut a deal with you know who to give the Primarchs a trial by fire? Conspiracy I tells ya...

Puffin Magician
22-11-2007, 22:35
The Primarchs were originally lost because of the Chaos Gods scattering them throughout the Galaxy. This was probably deliberate on their part, since they needed primarchs to later rip the Imperium in two [they're still "using" 5 of them!] and throwing them all over space may have had to do with planting seeds of dissent and contacting individuals and/or worlds essential to their plan.

Finnith
22-11-2007, 23:07
Quite sure in one of the older editions it was stated that chaos saw the creation of the primarchs as a threat to them so they tossed them into the warp to scatter them but were unable to destroy them. They couldnt breach the containers which the primarchs were contained due to some mystical-techno mumbo jumbo (the door handle was on the inside).

As for them ending up on human worlds im going with the like attracts like theory. Inside the warp emotions from the real world come together, hate attracts hate, despair attract despair etc. Thats how demons and gods are formed.

With the primarchs they were encased in a physical box but still had a strong psychic signal. Emotions leaking from human planets attracted them and brought them to the planets (rather than the planets too them which would just be silly). It was just a coincidence that many of the planets that they ended up were in great need of help so emotions would have been stronger.

**Notes this is all made up gibberish which is the result of too much beer, food and football. Much like alot of the internet.

Nazguire
22-11-2007, 23:11
Not necessarily. Remember Primarch matured within about 2/3 years of being discovered and even as babies were better fighters than a grown person. Angron himself was discovered surrounded by the corpses of Eldar who ahd obviously tried to kill him yet failed miserably.:evilgrin:

That doesn't make any sense at all.:eyebrows:

If you're a baby, you're a baby. You aren't some super powerful tai kwan do kickboxing AK wielding Rambo with chubby cheeks. You're an infant. A baby.

malika
22-11-2007, 23:28
"Rule of cool" I guess...lots of things dont make sense with GW :p

Captain Stern
22-11-2007, 23:45
Of course, if any one beats the Eldar (even a primarch) the only possible explanation is that it's rule of cool. :rolleyes: The Primarchs have ALWAYS been described as being uber-hard (to use the parlance of our times) even when they were very young i.e toddler stage Sanguinius playfully tore apart a giant, radioactive scorpion monster. Child-stage Angron beat a load of Eldar. Deal with it.

The few 40k books I have with me at the moment say that each primarch landed on a human world, but I'm positive that in at least one 40K publication, perhaps a 2nd edition Codex, it's stated that at least one landed on a world without any humans at all. Does this ring any bells?

malika
22-11-2007, 23:56
Of course, if any one beats the Eldar (even a primarch) the only possible explanation is that it's rule of cool.
We are talking about a baby beating Eldar, a baby already fully independently doing things. Personally Im having a hard time buying that, Primarch or not ;)

There is a difference between a toddler and a baby, I guess at the age that they can walk babies are more capable of independent action, but at these earlier stages they wouldnt be capable of doing all those things.

Nazguire
23-11-2007, 00:08
Of course, if any one beats the Eldar (even a primarch) the only possible explanation is that it's rule of cool. :rolleyes: The Primarchs have ALWAYS been described as being uber-hard (to use the parlance of our times) even when they were very young i.e toddler stage Sanguinius playfully tore apart a giant, radioactive scorpion monster. Child-stage Angron beat a load of Eldar. Deal with it.



a) I'm not an Eldar fan boy so I don't pay any particular bias towards this fictional creation that some people hold obsessively dear.
b) I'm not going to just 'deal with' the nonsense of a baby, fresh after being flung across the galaxy, waking up to find a heap of Eldar and casually slaughtering them all without any hassle.

Primarch, Ork or Human, a baby is a baby. An infant. Incapable of survival without care. Incapable of complex body movements.
A toddler can barely think let alone fight. Unless this toddler is seven feet tall with the mind of an adult it wouldn't be able to do it. And if it was, it wouldn't be a toddler.:p Or a baby for that matter (hee)

Wazzahamma
23-11-2007, 00:12
Angron's age during the Eldar assassination is never made clear. He could even have been a young teenager by that point...

Nazguire
23-11-2007, 00:13
Angron's age during the Eldar assassination is never made clear. He could even have been a young teenager by that point...

I can start to believe a teenage Primarch (seeing as he'd be just about an adult at that point) doing it. But a baby? A young toddler? A child?

Captain Stern
23-11-2007, 00:16
If memory serves, isn't 'infant' the word that was actually used (which covers baby to toddler)? It's easy to have a hard time imagining a mewling baby primarch killing a bunch of Eldar Exarchs. Of course, if the baby primarch had been a powerful psyker (as some of the older background strongly implies) then this is far from impossible.

Even if at the time the primarch had been a baby rather than a toddler the primarchs were "practically indestructable" - omniscient narrator, Codex Imperialis. Isn't it possible the primarch's psychic power would have instinctively manifested itself in dangerous situations (it might even have been a Cypher type teleport out of sticky situations power)?

But, anyway, I think the IA in question implies he was at least a toddler when he killed the Eldar.

Nazguire
23-11-2007, 00:20
If memory serves, isn't 'infant' the word that was actually used (which covers baby to toddler)? It's easy to have a hard time imagining a mewling baby primarch killing a bunch of Eldar Exarchs. Of course, if the baby primarch had been a powerful psyker (as some of the older background strongly implies) then this is far from impossible.

Even if at the time the primarch had been a baby rather than a toddler the primarchs were "practically indestructable" - omniscient narrator, Codex Imperialis. Isn't it possible the primarch's psychic power would have instinctively manifested itself in dangerous situations (it might even have been a Cypher type teleport out of sticky situations power).

The new background, including the IA, Sabretooth background and HH novels all state that only Magnus, Sanguinius and Night Haunter had any sort of psychic abilities, with Magnus being the most gifted. And being Angron, who led his gladiators, and later on, his Legion, in murderous close assaults without psychic powers (no Librarians), that sort of discredits that theory/:)

Captain Stern
23-11-2007, 00:27
[QUOTE=Nazguire

Primarch, Ork or Human, a baby is a baby. An infant. Incapable of survival without care. Incapable of complex body movements.
A toddler can barely think let alone fight. Unless this toddler is seven feet tall with the mind of an adult it wouldn't be able to do it. And if it was, it wouldn't be a toddler.:p Or a baby for that matter (hee)[/QUOTE]

A baby primarch is a far cry from any other kind of baby. I hate to use an example from yet another one of the IA Articles, but didn't baby Konrad Curze swim and dig his way out of the molten core of his planet to the surface? Scoff all you want but the primarchs were The Emperor's most long term, important plan/ project in his entire lifetime. The background has always reflected this (even in the newer background).

Captain Stern
23-11-2007, 00:32
The new background, including the IA, Sabretooth background and HH novels all state that only Magnus, Sanguinius and Night Haunter had any sort of psychic abilities, with Magnus being the most gifted. And being Angron, who led his gladiators, and later on, his Legion, in murderous close assaults without psychic powers (no Librarians), that sort of discredits that theory/:)

No, no. Hold on. They're the only ones specifically mentioned to have psychic powers. Big difference. Anyway, there have been numerous discussions on the subject of primarchs and psychic powers and none of them have come to a conclusive answer.

UPDATE

If it was in official 40k background then it's not merely a theory. Also, are you aware of how unpopular the Sabretooth background is? At least one of the HH novels, Descent of Angels, is absolutely reviled.

Commander Dante
23-11-2007, 01:01
well what about baby Superman? he was able to lift the kents old truck. lol.

Captain Stern
23-11-2007, 01:15
well what about baby Superman? he was able to lift the kents old truck. lol.

Did you never wonder who the primarchs were based on?

Commander Dante
23-11-2007, 02:08
Did you never wonder who the primarchs were based on?

of course. Primarchs are based off of superman. i was actualy going to say something about that in my last post but decided against it.

downundercadet07
23-11-2007, 02:38
It isn't really that coincidental because it IS so coincidental. 40k is a fate-centric universe. Nothing happens for the reason of random chance. The Primarchs, more than most people, were fated, and their fate was not to grow up on some airless moon somewhere.

Plus, if your like me and think Sigusmund or whatever the Fantasy emperor's name was was a primarch, there is only one missing!

Nazguire
23-11-2007, 02:44
No, no. Hold on. They're the only ones specifically mentioned to have psychic powers. Big difference. Anyway, there have been numerous discussions on the subject of primarchs and psychic powers and none of them have come to a conclusive answer.

UPDATE

If it was in official 40k background then it's not merely a theory. Also, are you aware of how unpopular the Sabretooth background is? At least one of the HH novels, Descent of Angels, is absolutely reviled.

It doesn't matter how unpopular the background is. It's canon. Allan Merrett wrote it, Allan Merrett said it is canon, it's official. It supercedes the old Horus Heresy background whether you like it or hate it.

Captain Stern
23-11-2007, 03:16
It doesn't matter how unpopular the background is. It's canon. Allan Merrett wrote it, Allan Merrett said it is canon, it's official. It supercedes the old Horus Heresy background whether you like it or hate it.

All hail Allan Merrett!

Nazguire
23-11-2007, 03:21
All hail Allan Merrett!


Yes, all hail. That said, I'm not particularly a fan of all the new background published in the Sabretooth products but if it's official, and Allan Merrett wrote it, you can't just discount it.

Captain Stern
23-11-2007, 03:34
To make something official I guess you need 'suit' types to approve it. How much 40k do you think they've read? As to Alan Merret... I've heard that he's been with Games Workshop for centuries and that he's been an integral part of the background for a long time blah blah blah.

Even in the Realms of Chaos books, when they used to list even the janitors in the credits (which is how Jervis Johnson got his start at GW I've heard) there's no mention of him.

VanHel
23-11-2007, 04:21
I always thought that the Emperor made a deal with the Chaos Gods to make the Primarchs, and then screwed them over and that is why they were scattered the way they were.

Champsguy
23-11-2007, 05:42
Angron killing the Eldar is a clear reference to the story of Hercules killing snakes sent by Hera when he was still in his crib. Nothing GW does is original. ;)

As far as the original question, though...

Everyone knows the story of Perseus. Perseus slew the gorgon Medusa and then married Andromeda (watch Clash of the Titans if you're unfamiliar with the story). But many historians believe that Perseus actually existed, that he was a real guy. The belief is that Perseus was a general who led his army in conquest of some city-state, a city-state which worshipped an older type of god. Medusa was an earth-goddess, but Perseus came in and threw down her temple. In this way, Perseus "slew" Medusa, who was later demonized and became not an earth-goddess, but instead a monster "slain" by the victorious hero.

In this way, real historical events are altered and become myth. I view the Horus Heresy-era stuff the same. The Primarchs were all "found" on human worlds because (as I see it) they were all born there. The Primarchs were the greatest human heroes of the galaxy, and the whole "created by the Emperor" thing was just tacked on by Imperial cult afterwards.

Kasonic
23-11-2007, 06:44
Because it makes for compelling writing. End of story.

Sideros Peltarion
23-11-2007, 07:44
a) I'm not an Eldar fan boy so I don't pay any particular bias towards this fictional creation that some people hold obsessively dear.
b) I'm not going to just 'deal with' the nonsense of a baby, fresh after being flung across the galaxy, waking up to find a heap of Eldar and casually slaughtering them all without any hassle.

Primarch, Ork or Human, a baby is a baby. An infant. Incapable of survival without care. Incapable of complex body movements.
A toddler can barely think let alone fight. Unless this toddler is seven feet tall with the mind of an adult it wouldn't be able to do it. And if it was, it wouldn't be a toddler.:p Or a baby for that matter (hee)

Firstly, as others have said, its the rule of cool
Secondly, he didn't kill them without any hassle, he was found dying by the slave master when he was discovered.
Thirdly, remember the story of Heracles? He did a similar thing as a baby with a load of venemous snakes.


Angron's age during the Eldar assassination is never made clear. He could even have been a young teenager by that point...

In the Index Astares it says he was a baby I believe

Commander Dante
23-11-2007, 14:08
Personaly, I love the new fluff because it is so specific....
and champsguy cool but still not canon

Champsguy
23-11-2007, 15:53
Personaly, I love the new fluff because it is so specific....
and champsguy cool but still not canon

I know, but it's "canon" from 10,000 years ago as viewed through the lens of a religious bureaucracy.

It sits better with my sensibilities to have the Emperor discover powerful allies on his crusade rather than imagining a Bloodthirster with a flashlight and a ski mask pulled over his head sneaking around a dark laboratory looking for some box marked "Primarchs" like he's trying to steal your stereo or something.

StanMcKim
23-11-2007, 16:10
You have to remember that those IA articles are supposed to be summaries of documents taken during the Great Crusade. Nothing is absolutely certain. Angron could have been a baby in terms of age, but even at 2 or 3, he'd probably be at least a teenage primarch. Even a threatened "8 year old in people years" primarch would be incredibly dangerous. The thing that the story is supposed to tell you is that at a very young age, Angron was a badass.
-Stan

Commander Dante
23-11-2007, 16:13
I know, but it's "canon" from 10,000 years ago as viewed through the lens of a religious bureaucracy.

It sits better with my sensibilities to have the Emperor discover powerful allies on his crusade rather than imagining a Bloodthirster with a flashlight and a ski mask pulled over his head sneaking around a dark laboratory looking for some box marked "Primarchs" like he's trying to steal your stereo or something.

Then what about the Horus Heresy novels?

RexTalon
23-11-2007, 17:20
That doesn't make any sense at all.:eyebrows:

If you're a baby, you're a baby. You aren't some super powerful tai kwan do kickboxing AK wielding Rambo with chubby cheeks. You're an infant. A baby.
You've never seen Kung Pow have you?

OP, there were dark forces at work attempting to scatter the Primarchs. Chaos wanted to use them to overthrow the Emperor and the Emperor wanted to use them to wrangle in the galaxy. It wouldn't have been good for either side if they had landed in a star or on a world where they would have been killed.
Here's a better question for you. There were a relatively small number of Primarchs compared to the number of inhabitable planets. How did the Emperor know exactly where to find them?
Maybe he had something to do with where they landed.

Commander Dante
23-11-2007, 17:39
According to the fluff the The primarchs were like psychic beacons to the Emperor almost like smaller astronomicons.

Senbei
23-11-2007, 17:45
A Toddler killing eldar? It's Child's Play!

Also... Drop a missing Primarch on an Ork world and watch the Orks grow into (otherwise) unstopable monsters through a life of constant fighting ?

Commander Dante
23-11-2007, 17:50
what do you mean sebei? how could orks become stronger if the Primarch decapitaes them? the primarch would be constantly fighting ;) :)

Maidel
23-11-2007, 19:19
Just an interresting thought to throw in here.

Its never been stated that Angron himself killed them, just that he was found surrounded by dead eldar.

I always thought that it was a secret hint that he was already being 'groomed' by the chaos powers and they protected him.

Senbei
23-11-2007, 23:55
what do you mean sebei? how could orks become stronger if the Primarch decapitaes them? the primarch would be constantly fighting ;) :)

Well, Orks get stronger on agression... What you'd get from a primarch is an enemy that they couldn't beat but one they would continualy pump themselves up to fight anyway.

As for 'childs Play'... It's a film.....

BrainFireBob
24-11-2007, 06:54
Considering the "dreams" mentioned in at least two IA articles, it seems the Emperor guided some or all of them and contacted people on their planets to protect them- or tried to.

I'm thinking of Lorgar and Guilliman in specific, since the bronze-helmed warrior was the Emperor.

Spider
24-11-2007, 09:31
On the one hand it always seemed stupidly coincidental that the young primarchs ended up on the most suitable world/society for them...young wolf boy Russ ending up on Fenris for example.

But there is much we don't know.

Wild speculation here, but what if the primarch DNA/technology (those pods/cribs they were lost in must have been high tech life support systems/incubators) was able to imprint itself on is surroundings when it awoke?

Im sort of thinking of an unconscious "Transformers" effect here.

Then Wolf boy Russ didn't land on Fenris by some stupidly improbably chance..the rule of cool doesn't even apply. He became wolf boy because he landed on Fenris.

A simpler theory would just be that they laned on the worlds that chaos/tzeentch wanted them on. Those formative years pretty much doomed them in one way or the other. Angrons rather harsh upbringing was a major contribution to his downfall for example.

Just some thoughts.:)

superknijn
24-11-2007, 10:24
Another similar thing is the myth of Heracles, also known as Hercules.
He was a demi-god who strangled snakes (of the mythic sent-by-Hera type) when he was still an infant. Wouldn't a bio-engineered demi-god like a Primarch be able to do the same?

The Warmaster
24-11-2007, 11:54
Considering the "dreams" mentioned in at least two IA articles, it seems the Emperor guided some or all of them and contacted people on their planets to protect them- or tried to.

I'm thinking of Lorgar and Guilliman in specific, since the bronze-helmed warrior was the Emperor.

Didn't Night Haunter have dreams, or visions, of the Emperor too?

In response to the OP, all of the Primarchs (as far as we know) were sent to human-inhabited worlds, because that makes the whole Space Marine-recruiting process a whole lot easier.

- N.

Easy E
24-11-2007, 12:14
A simpler theory would just be that they laned on the worlds that chaos/tzeentch wanted them on. Those formative years pretty much doomed them in one way or the other. Angrons rather harsh upbringing was a major contribution to his downfall for example.

Just some thoughts.:)

I also think that the primarch's didn't land on worlds perfectly wuited for them, I think the culture they found themsleves informed them into the Primarchs they became. Hence, Leman Russ on Fenris became more wolfish. Angron on (Whatever his planet was) became more bloodthirsty because of the exposure to psycho-surgery and Gladiator fights.

Oh well, nature vs. nurture. Also keep in mind. The stories of the Primarchs are the Imperium's Myths. There is only a grain of truth in them, the rest is just window dressing to make them look hard. Really, Russ killed a titan with a punch?

Also, I like Champsguy's theory. They were guys the Emperor found on the crusade. Then, the primarch's story was simply made up.

Vaulkhar
24-11-2007, 13:08
I've always viewed the chain of events as going something like this:

1) Emperor creates Primarchs to act as weapons against his various enemies.

2) Chaos Gods realise that if the Emperor is allowed full control of the Primarch project then they're in for some major pain. On the other hand, he's also created 20 additions to the very short list of beings actually capable of bringing him down, so if they can get them into environments likely to corrupt them, the Primachs could be turned into weapons against the Emperor. The Ruinous Powers combine their powers in an attempt to either destroy or shunt them into corrupting environments.

3) The Emperor realises what the Gods are up to. He'd like to preserve the Primarchs, but also twigs that if he can steer them onto less corrupting worlds then the project might actually be helped - the Primarchs will absorb the characters of their individual worlds and become more rounded, rather than the uniform upbringing they'd have if they remained on Earth. The 20 or so easy conquests he'll have later on are merely a bonus to the deal.

4) (2) and (3) collide. The Emperor allows the Primarch capsules to be stolen (although it may be doubtful if he would have been able to prevent the theft by all four Powers acting in concert) and instead attempts to shield and guide them to relatively promising worlds. The Chaos Gods are attempting to dump them onto corrupting worlds. Both sides want them on human-inhabited worlds though, because anything else puts a dent in their plans.

Wazzahamma
24-11-2007, 14:22
However it came to pass, it is known that Angron was discovered by a slaver who chanced upon the bleeding figure of the Primarch, surrounded by scores of alien corpses, high in the northern mountains. History does not record to what race these aliens belonged, but many Imperial scholars believe them to have been Eldar, perhaps attacking the Primarch with some foreknowledge of what the future held for him. Angron had been grievously wounded, but was alive and, seeing that all his wounds were to the fore, the slaver realised that Angron must be a formidable warrior. Taken as a slave, Angron was nursed back to health and bio-neural implants were surgically grafted to his cerebral cortex.

No mention of Angron's age or the word 'infant'. No confirmation that the aliens are Eldar either...

Commander Dante
24-11-2007, 14:36
If it was eldar i would have to say it was not craftworld, they would have been more throuough. It was probably Dark Eldar trying to get thier hands on awsome gladiator slave.